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EmperorEternalXIX
10-11-2009, 10:52 PM
I saw someone mention buried in some thread, either here or on another forum, that they had some method devised to do a quick and dirty version of wound allocation. Basically, he divided up the wounds by how many groups there were and then allocated only the remainders. I forget how he did it but I tried it a few times and it worked. Anyone know offhand this technique (or any others)? Many of the new players at my club struggle with wound allocation, and it would be good to have a shorthand way available.

Abominable Plague Marine
10-12-2009, 01:36 AM
You only need to allocate wounds to models with different stats or equipment in the same unit, everything else you fast roll for.

I dont understand the difficulty.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-12-2009, 02:03 AM
Let me be the first to thank you for contributing nothing to the question, first of all. I never said it is a difficult concept to master, simply that someone had posted a faster way to do it that would be a much easier way to teach my younger players in the midst of a game as I am bombarded with questions from new folks who are uncertain about whether they are doing it correctly.

Secondly, it doesn't work that way, or at least not that simply. For some of our armies, every squad has complex differences (Deathwing, Nob squads, some of the Wolf Guard configurations, etc). You don't just take your combat squad and go "I took 18 wounds, here's 17 and 1 for the Sergeant." That is incorrect (horribly so, actually).

In this example, for argument's sake, it is supposed to be something like this, assuming 18 wounds is the damage dealt:

Round 1 -- 4 wounds on Bolters, 1 on Sergeant (5 so far)
Round 2 -- 4 wounds on Bolters, 1 on Sergeant (10 so far)
Round 3 -- 4 wounds on Bolters, 1 on Sergeant (15 so far)
Round 4 -- Remaining 3 wounds on Bolters, for arguments' sake (Total of 18)

The end result is 15 bolter saves rolled at once (and if there are 4 fails or more, the Bolters are all dead), and 3 on the Sergeant (which if any one is a failure, he is dead).

Not a difficult concept, of course. But someone at some juncture in the past month had mentioned in passing a much faster way to decide this without having to count out dice. All I was asking was if there were any easier ways that people use, or if anyone could recall the method I had read posted about (which, again, yielded the same result as my above calculation with a simple bit of math that I can't recall). I was just hoping to re-learn this shortcut for the sake of some of the players at my club, who do not have an easy time understanding how wound allocation works -- largely so that veterans like myself do not have to coach them through do-overs for botched rolls or what have you.

Not all of us play with clubs full of experts; my club specializes in just the opposite -- teaching young eager new players the rules. I was simply looking for something a little bit better than having to break out the rulebook and giving an entire lesson on how to wound allocate every time someone gets into a situation where it is key.

Vindur
10-12-2009, 04:29 AM
I read the post you were talking about. As far as I remember it worked like this:
Roll saves equal to the number of models in the unit and then allocate the dice from left to right along the unit IE left most die is the left most models save.
Then allocate the remaining wounds as you wish.

eg marines squad from your post takes 7 wounds

1,2,4,5,6
M S M M M
In this example the sarge and a marine dies and there as still 2 wounds to allocate.

To be honest Im not a fan of the method because it means in the example above I can now happily allocate another wound to the sarge even though I wouldn't normally just because I he is going to die any way. Its also confusing because you can allocate wounds to models that have already been removed.

Abominable Plague Marine
10-12-2009, 06:53 AM
Lets assume then I know nothing of the game, is that how you would teach me?

Jwolf
10-12-2009, 07:04 AM
I can only think of a few examples where counting the dice would be slow, and in every case using the opportunity to help new players learn the rules seems worth it to me.

Abominable Plague Marine
10-12-2009, 07:54 AM
I agree. My point (without actually getting to it till now) is that if you teach it right and well the first time, there will be no need for shorthand courses which may lead away from curcial understanding of the rule in the first place. Id rather someone explain it to me than dumb it down so that I might miss the importance of what the eventaul outcome should be.

That said, I certainly would recognise the importance of an aid in understanding the success or failure should someone present one.

mercer
10-12-2009, 09:52 AM
Don't you have to allocate the wounds evenly? P25 suggests you need to do them evenly, it says that a first, second and third wound etc must be allocated per model.

The West Coast Knight
10-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Here is a fast way to help with your dice rolls myself and a lot of players use.

pre count your dice have set of 5, 10, and 20, set aside and ready to roll this avoids counting them out during the game.

Also just use differnt colors for the wounds allocation ie Black dice is for the guys with bolters green is for the Sgt and red is for the heavy weapon.

Simple easy and fast.

WCK

Nabterayl
10-12-2009, 11:24 AM
Teaching the rules is one thing, but I assume those of us who know the rules don't actually go through the long-form wound allocation every time. If you've got a squad of ten space marines with a sergeant, special weapon marine, and heavy weapon marine, and that squad takes thirty shots, surely none of us literally say, "Okay, I allocate one wound to space marine 1. Now I allocate one wound to space marine 2. Now I allocate one wound to space marine 3 ..."

I think the key concept in wound allocation is how many buckets of identical models you have into which you sort your wounds. I find that if you start talking about "allocating" wounds to individual models many new players get sidetracked by the perfectly intuitive (but wrong) idea that models can only be affected by wounds that have been allocated to them. So here's how I do it:

Step 1 - identify how many buckets you have. In the example of the tricked-out tactical squad above there are, obviously, four buckets. As we all know, that would be true even if the sergeant carried a bolter and bolt pistol, just like the "regular" marines.

Step 2 - identify how big the buckets are. Seven, one, one, and one models big.

Step 3 - fill up each bucket once, in any order you want. If you've only got five incoming wounds, you probably want to dump all five into the "seven" bucket.

Step 4 - repeat step 3 until you're out of wounds.

Step 5 - roll saves for each bucket. For each bucket, kill off as many models as you can.

I'm sure there are other options, but that's how I do it, and I haven't seen anybody post their actual methodology in this thread yet.

Culven
10-12-2009, 12:48 PM
I have a "fast method" that I use, though it starts to get bogged down if there are different Toughnesses in the unit and Saves can mess with it a bit.

Assuming all models in the unit have the same Toughness and Armour Saves, I will simply keep track of wounds as to whether they will cause Instant Death and whether they will permit Armour Saves (max of 4 groups). Then I simply divide the number of wounds inflicted by the number of models in the unit. This tells me how many will be assigned to each model. Then I distribute the wounds and roll saves. It is really much easier than it sounds.

Maybe an example will help. 10-man Space Marine squad with Sergeant, Flamer, and Heavy Bolter. 17 wounds caused with 2 AP2. 17/10 = 1 wound per model with 7 extra. I like my special weapons and Sergeant, so the Bolter marines will take the extra. I assign the AP2 to the Bolters and need to roll 12 Armour Saves. Then one Armour Save each for the Sergeant, Flamer, and Heavy Bolter. It speed sup the game, but it may be confusing for an opponent who doesn't understand the Complex Unit rules and what I am doing.

mathhammer
10-12-2009, 02:40 PM
there are two different concepts here.

1. How can I allocate dice to models to wounds fast.

And all of us have ways from a friendly game way of the left to right or just rolling dice.

2. The other question is how do I teach it.

I teach it by having the player pile up dice for each model. Then showing them which ones group together. Teaching shortcuts to a new player leads to crappie player. After a few games show some of the shortcuts. But teach the correct rulebook way of doing it.



And Jwolf, yhea counting dice can be slow in a tournament when you got 30 hormagaunt attacks and the other player wants you to make small stacks of 5 dice so they can stall the game...... sigh

Jwolf
10-12-2009, 02:50 PM
.

And Jwolf, yhea counting dice can be slow in a tournament when you got 30 hormagaunt attacks and the other player wants you to make small stacks of 5 dice so they can stall the game...... sigh

That's not a very nice behavior. No is the correct answer.

Denzark
10-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Teaching the rules is one thing, but I assume those of us who know the rules don't actually go through the long-form wound allocation every time. If you've got a squad of ten space marines with a sergeant, special weapon marine, and heavy weapon marine, and that squad takes thirty shots, surely none of us literally say, "Okay, I allocate one wound to space marine 1. Now I allocate one wound to space marine 2. Now I allocate one wound to space marine 3 ..."

I think the key concept in wound allocation is how many buckets of identical models you have into which you sort your wounds. I find that if you start talking about "allocating" wounds to individual models many new players get sidetracked by the perfectly intuitive (but wrong) idea that models can only be affected by wounds that have been allocated to them. So here's how I do it:

Step 1 - identify how many buckets you have. In the example of the tricked-out tactical squad above there are, obviously, four buckets. As we all know, that would be true even if the sergeant carried a bolter and bolt pistol, just like the "regular" marines.

Step 2 - identify how big the buckets are. Seven, one, one, and one models big.

Step 3 - fill up each bucket once, in any order you want. If you've only got five incoming wounds, you probably want to dump all five into the "seven" bucket.

Step 4 - repeat step 3 until you're out of wounds.

Step 5 - roll saves for each bucket. For each bucket, kill off as many models as you can.

I'm sure there are other options, but that's how I do it, and I haven't seen anybody post their actual methodology in this thread yet.

WTF? What in the name of Ghandi's flip flop does this actually mean?

Nabterayl
10-12-2009, 03:47 PM
It's the way I actually think of pages 25-26. I prefer the concept of sorting buckets to the concept of allocating wounds because the latter can result in the following problem:


Situation: three obliterators take three bolter wounds.

Chaos Player: Okay, I allocate one wound to each model. <rolls three saves and fails two>. Okay, each obliterator has one wound now -

Opponent: No, you have to kill one obliterator.

Chaos Player: But each oblit only took one wound!

Opponent: Yes, but you still have to kill off whole models where possible.

Chaos Player: But none of the oblits had two wounds allocated to them! I allocated the wounds!

Opponent: Okay, let me explain ...

Don't get me wrong, I teach new players using the "allocate wounds" terminology so they can see what the rules actually say. But as soon as they get that, I try to get them to think in terms of sorting buckets (or to use the rulebook's terminology, "groups of identical models") because it's faster and, in my opinion, clearer. Your mileage may vary.

Denzark
10-12-2009, 03:52 PM
What is this all about? Am I missing something here - or as an immortal CSM used to say in a different life, 'Am I talking effing swahili or what?'

My friend fires a fully manned tac squad at me. So 8 x 2 rapid fire bolters, a melta and a krak missile. He picks up 16 dice for the bolters, and then a blue dice for the krak and a green dice for the melta. He rolls them all at once, shooting at my berzerkers. the melta misses, the krak hits, so I take one berzerker away for an instant kill. 12 bolter shots hit, and six do damage. I have 5 berzerkers left - I allocate the wounds one to each, and a second (the last wound) to another. I roll 4 saves for the individual woundsa and remove an equal number of models those that fail. The last fella I roll 2 dice for and remve him if either were a 1 or 2. Should I have a champ or plasma pistol in there, I would specify the colour of dice for that individual. Is that not fast?

Does everything need to be quick and easy? tell you what - you decide how many models are shooting in a squad. Pick up 1 x d6 per individual shooting, 1 x d10 for a special weapon, and a d20 for heavy weapons. If you have a template or blast template, hold them in your hand with the dice. Throw the entire handful at the squad. Anything that hits actually hits, any model that falls over is dead. A hit but no knock over is an armour save, any dice template misses are misses - twin linked wepaons can be thrown again at the target squad.

Any quicker for ye?

Nabterayl
10-12-2009, 04:25 PM
What is this all about? Am I missing something here - or as an immortal CSM used to say in a different life, 'Am I talking effing swahili or what?'
It's an all-purpose way to think about wound allocation that doesn't care how many wounds the models have or whether there's more incoming wounds than there are models in the unit. My main point is that allocating wounds to models can mislead people, since what you're really doing is allocating wounds to groups of identical models. If you've never had anybody make that mistake, then great; congratulations to your fellow players for understanding the rules.


My friend fires a fully manned tac squad at me. So 8 x 2 rapid fire bolters, a melta and a krak missile. He picks up 16 dice for the bolters, and then a blue dice for the krak and a green dice for the melta. He rolls them all at once, shooting at my berzerkers. the melta misses, the krak hits, so I take one berzerker away for an instant kill.
You mean you roll a different color die to see if it wounds, right?

12 bolter shots hit, and six do damage. I have 5 berzerkers left - I allocate the wounds one to each, and a second (the last wound) to another. I roll 4 saves for the individual woundsa and remove an equal number of models those that fail.
Sure, works for me.

The last fella I roll 2 dice for and remve him if either were a 1 or 2.
Which model is this? You already removed the krak missile casualty.

Should I have a champ or plasma pistol in there, I would specify the colour of dice for that individual. Is that not fast?
If it works for you, great. Not suggesting that you do things my way. Culven asked how we do things so he could get some ideas, so I told him.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-12-2009, 05:41 PM
I think people misunderstand my motives with this thread.

I am the head person at my club, and am often interrupted from gaming to answer questions. Wound allocation isn't hard but our newer players are still learning the game and this is one of the weirder parts, so there are a lot of "hey, we think we messed this up, how do we do it again?"

I don't want to teach them anything that is not in the rules, but if I am in the middle of a game with another player, he has to wait for me to finish helping. The last thing he wants to wait for is for me to help someone else allocate 20 wounds across their precious terminator squad while walking them through the entire process longform.

My hope was to have a faster way to explain it, more so than a faster way to do it. Nabterayl's method is much simpler to explain than the books, and so long as it comes out correctly every time, I can use it to speed up my own games (as well as other experienced players's games) and then it will not be so limiting to be doing wound allocation on three other tables.


Don't get me wrong, I teach new players using the "allocate wounds" terminology so they can see what the rules actually say. But as soon as they get that, I try to get them to think in terms of sorting buckets (or to use the rulebook's terminology, "groups of identical models") because it's faster and, in my opinion, clearer. Your mileage may vary. This is the same sort of approach I take. I teach as much by the book as I can...but I can't be interrupting my opponents' play every 15 minutes to go explain it in detail when our time at our club is limited.

I am in charge of the club now that the only other co-founder's left, and it isn't in the group's or my own interest to have people dreading gaming with me because I will be pausing to aid the younger folks.

That aside...someone mentioned earlier that maybe more experienced players don't necessarily go through all the whole "Marine 1 takes this wound, Marine 2 takes this wound..." bit...but at my club, we actually DO (even those of us who understand the concept and are experienced). It consumes a great deal of time and all of us often have to slow things down to step through it with more clarity for the sake of lesser experienced players. Even when we play against each other, contemplating the "safest" ways to do this takes up a lot of our time. I was only hoping to get some insights as to some shorthand techniques to speed things up for those certain inopportune moments that come up (and I believe Nabterayl's technique is the one I was thinking of originally). Thanks.

Vaeust
10-22-2009, 06:59 PM
My friend fires a fully manned tac squad at me. So 8 x 2 rapid fire bolters, a melta and a krak missile. He picks up 16 dice for the bolters, and then a blue dice for the krak and a green dice for the melta. He rolls them all at once, shooting at my berzerkers. the melta misses, the krak hits, so I take one berzerker away for an instant kill. 12 bolter shots hit, and six do damage. I have 5 berzerkers left - I allocate the wounds one to each, and a second (the last wound) to another. I roll 4 saves for the individual woundsa and remove an equal number of models those that fail. The last fella I roll 2 dice for and remve him if either were a 1 or 2. Should I have a champ or plasma pistol in there, I would specify the colour of dice for that individual. Is that not fast?

Does everything need to be quick and easy? tell you what - you decide how many models are shooting in a squad. Pick up 1 x d6 per individual shooting, 1 x d10 for a special weapon, and a d20 for heavy weapons. If you have a template or blast template, hold them in your hand with the dice. Throw the entire handful at the squad. Anything that hits actually hits, any model that falls over is dead. A hit but no knock over is an armour save, any dice template misses are misses - twin linked wepaons can be thrown again at the target squad.

Any quicker for ye?

This would not be a good way of doing it with a complex unit. It would NOT be the same. You would have allocated a bolter shot and the krak missile shot to the same person to minimize damage. You can do that. You would not have removed he who was hit by the krak immediately. 6 berzerkers, 7 wounds. That means you could have

Berzerker with plasma pistol: 1 bolter wound
Berzerker 2: 1 bolter wound
Berzerker 3: 1 bolter wound
Berzerker 4: 1 bolter wound
Berzerker 5: 1 bolter wound
Berzerker 6: 1 krak wound, 1 bolter wound

By allocating the wound which will cause sure death with a bolter wound, you end up saving the bolter wound. You overlooked this, eh?