What are the best dice in the world ever????????????????

[Denzark]

Hello peeps

The last chap I was playing had an awesome set of what i would refer to as 'Casino Dice' - all perfectly square, see through plastic, with dots printed on rather than indented. We were chatting and he said he saw some study or other where, in a mechanical contraption, over 1000 rolls, indented dice would be more likely to fall 6 side down - ie one up - especially normal rounded corner dice.

I have some ex-casion dice a relative brought back from Vegas for me and rate these as my most impartial dice. My worst dice are a batch of Flames of War Afrika Korps dice - the amount of times I see swastika (ie ones) is unreal.

I also have a Chaos Dice - with an 8 pointed star for 1. I use it for all key roles, and it is guaranteed to fail saves for my lord or make the game go onto turn 6-7 - at the worst posible moment.

Questions:

1. What are the ebst dice in the world ever?

2. Anybody got a good source of totally square, printed dot dice (pardon my lack of nomenclature)?

3. Anybody got a good source of custom dice with army icons etc?

[Pendragon38]

I'm a fan of rackem dice from AT-43......I get a lot of sixs.

[DarkLink]

1. There's a reason casinos use casino dice.

2. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=casino+dice :p

3. You're just going to get stuck with chessix size dice, most likely. Plus, to be completely honest dice with icons are annoying for your opponent, because your opponent can't read them. I don't know if your icon represents a 6, or a 1, or if you're just cheating on me. It's kind of like picking up your hits rather than your misses so your opponent doesn't get a chance to verify them. It doesn't mean you're cheating, it's just kind of annoying for your opponent.

[inquisitorsog]

I can't find the link now , but there was a purported unpublished engineering study of dice rolls that surprising indicated ONES came up more often when using normal "consumer" dice. There's a bit other research out there too. But, in most cases, on a flat, hard surface, the differences only came out to ones you'd see in thousands of rolls. However, playing on a soft, flocked, or uneven surface may encourage any biases.

That study concluded
1) Casino dice (the printed dot dice) were most reliable. The "fill" is the same density and kind of plastic as the body of the die. The square edges also help lots.
2) If you can't get casino dice, then get dice with the squarest edges possible.
3) If you can't get casino dice, look for dice that use different sized pips to balance the amount of plastic removed for the pip (so a large pip on the 1 side and small pips on the 6 side)
4) The rounder the edge or the deeper the pip (when evenly sized), the more the bias asserts itself.
5) likewise, the various novelty dice tend to also have more biases.

You can get casino dice on Amazon or many other general sites that carry decent levels of gaming supplies. Be prepared for them to be typically at least 2-3 dollars each and large. I've never found a size such as we typically use for gaming.

[thingol]

Chessex is likely going to be your source for custom dice. The price per die goes up the fewer you order, so be prepared to put out a dollar or more pre die depending on quantities. I have a counts-as-Deathwing Legio Cybernetica army, and had dice cut with the AdMech logo to replace the 1's. I find these dice to be satisfactorily random, likely because of the volume of material removed on the "One" side. While I can sympathize with DarkLink's response (I played a fellow that used BattleTech dice, with different pip patterns and icons, hard to follow), I've personally found so long as all your dice are consistently marked, most opponents don't mind them so long as you're clear at the outset what the non-numerical side indicates. Might've helped that anytime the logo came up I was likely losing a Terminator... :rolleyes:

[magickbk]

This is the supposed study: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice

I have some regular old Chessex dice that are hard to read, honestly. I mostly use them during games at home. If I go to a store, I use regular old GW dice, for the most part. I have tried to order custom dice through Chessex, but as long as I am clear on what my dice are with my opponent, I wouldn't expect to have a problem. I also make sure to leave dice down on the table for a moment after I roll, to give my opponent time to see for themselves what I rolled. I have only ever met one or two people who were fast-snatchers of rolled dice, and they were the ones who may have been trying to sneak an extra hit here and there. That being said, I don't play in tournaments, in which time is of the essence, and people have a tendency to move more quickly.

[Kirsten]

personally I like the little dice that have the weighted 1 side...
>.>
<.<

[Denzark]

This is the supposed study: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice

I have some regular old Chessex dice that are hard to read, honestly. I mostly use them during games at home. If I go to a store, I use regular old GW dice, for the most part. I have tried to order custom dice through Chessex, but as long as I am clear on what my dice are with my opponent, I wouldn't expect to have a problem. I also make sure to leave dice down on the table for a moment after I roll, to give my opponent time to see for themselves what I rolled. I have only ever met one or two people who were fast-snatchers of rolled dice, and they were the ones who may have been trying to sneak an extra hit here and there. That being said, I don't play in tournaments, in which time is of the essence, and people have a tendency to move more quickly.

Awesome v interesting. I think I will be trying for flush dot casino dice

[PalinMoonstride]

After years of terrible results with chessex style dice i broke down and got some of these.

http://www.gamescience.com/

The video on the site explains a lot about how dice are made.

Since getting the dice I have noticed more statistical averages in my rolls tho the placebo effect is most likely affecting me now.

I am not a fan of casino dice due to their size and price. Also i have had people in warmachine tournaments break my models with them.

You can find d6 sets on ebay for abound 8 usd.

[DarkLink]

While I can sympathize with DarkLink's response (I played a fellow that used BattleTech dice, with different pip patterns and icons, hard to follow), I've personally found so long as all your dice are consistently marked, most opponents don't mind them so long as you're clear at the outset what the non-numerical side indicates. Might've helped that anytime the logo came up I was likely losing a Terminator... :rolleyes:

It's not a problem if you're a decent opponent. As long as you're not that guy no one wants to play, you're fine. For example, at one of the last tournaments I went to I played a guy with dull gold pips on dull red dice that were impossible to read, and he rolled as fast as possible so that I couldn't see what he was rolling. I should have called it on him. Incidentally, he's the only person I've ever played in a tournament who was actually kinda cheating, and only about the second or third person I wouldn't want to play again. I run into a lot more problems with casual players outside of tournaments, with flubbing rules and things like that.

[Aegwymourn]

It's not a problem if you're a decent opponent. As long as you're not that guy no one wants to play, you're fine. For example, at one of the last tournaments I went to I played a guy with dull gold pips on dull red dice that were impossible to read, and he rolled as fast as possible so that I couldn't see what he was rolling. I should have called it on him. Incidentally, he's the only person I've ever played in a tournament who was actually kinda cheating, and only about the second or third person I wouldn't want to play again. I run into a lot more problems with casual players outside of tournaments, with flubbing rules and things like that.

It is the bureaucrat in me but I almost wish people had to register their dice with a TO before using them. Like you said it is almost never a problem, but tournaments are stressful enough. Why bring dice that, especially to you opponent, seem intended to confuse/obfuscate what is happening.

[daboarder]

1. There's a reason casinos use casino dice.

2. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=casino+dice :p

3. You're just going to get stuck with chessix size dice, most likely. Plus, to be completely honest dice with icons are annoying for your opponent, because your opponent can't read them. I don't know if your icon represents a 6, or a 1, or if you're just cheating on me. It's kind of like picking up your hits rather than your misses so your opponent doesn't get a chance to verify them. It doesn't mean you're cheating, it's just kind of annoying for your opponent.

Really not that hard to pick a dice abnd random and see what number is on the opposite side of the dice to the symbol, its always going to be a 6 or a 1.

Personally I prefer to play against and opponent with custom dice, atleast their not then using the horribly weighted and holey GW ones.

[Xenith]

Personally, I see buying casino dice to gain a tiny advantage in a game of toy soldiers as somewhat pathetic.

I played against a guy using a massive tub of dice last week. The game started with him using Chessex custom dice (symbols on the 6), then after the game started going my way at around turn 3, he pulled out casino dice and started using them for armour saves, then in his turn 3-4/rest of game used them for all his rolls.

His dice did get noticably hotter, and I made a derisory comment about the casino dice. I felt sorry for him ,that he felt the need to push this tiniest of advantages.

Fortunately, my own dice took this slight upon their rolling to heart, and performed incredibly.



TL;DR: Using Casino dice instantly marks you out as TFG. I wont let you not use them, but I wont pull any punches. The most precise dice in the world wont save you from a kerb stomping.

[Wolfshade]

I don't see why you would change your dice, unless you know the ones you're using aren't weighted correctly.
With the games I play, we tend to use either all my dice or all a friends so we get the same advantage/disadvantage and then there is no squabbling over whose dice are whose.
The only time we tend to use different dice are for big rolls, high strength pie plates, which we use the large appocalypse dice, because they are big moments :)

I think if you do have custom dice they should be consistent with the special glyph on all the 1s or all the 6s having both is just confusing

[eldargal]

Silliness

Casino dice aren't gaining an advantage, they are simply dice that are designed to match the probabilities as possible. If everything everyone should be made to use casino dice, not people who do looked down upon. Of all the things to complain about people doing to gain an advantage this is perhaps the single most ridiculous I've seen.

Ignoring the fact that casino dice aren't somehow magical dice that will improve your rolls, an equal chance to roll a 6 over a 1 is not always a good thing.

[Mr Mystery]

3. You're just going to get stuck with chessix size dice, most likely. Plus, to be completely honest dice with icons are annoying for your opponent, because your opponent can't read them. I don't know if your icon represents a 6, or a 1, or if you're just cheating on me. It's kind of like picking up your hits rather than your misses so your opponent doesn't get a chance to verify them. It doesn't mean you're cheating, it's just kind of annoying for your opponent.

Amen to that brother!

They're nice and all, but FFS just use ones with dots on. Even worse as there is no industry standard on what the symbol replaces.

And I say that as a pretty dice whore. Got all the limited edition Warhammer Magic Dice (well, I ordered them all. Somehow I missed out on Celestial :( ) got a full compliment of the tinned 40k ones.

[OrksOrksOrks]

Any dice are flawed, I use a much better system, every time i need to roll a dice, i run out into the street and ask a stranger for a number between one and six, obviously it takes me a while to sort of my charging mob of ork boys, but I find this gives me a more fair distribution of numbers.

[Wolfshade]

Can I suggest using http://www.random.org/dice/ instead of people as they have their own biases, and if you run into me I would suggest either pi or e^1

[Psychosplodge]

Any dice are flawed, I use a much better system, every time i need to roll a dice, i run out into the street and ask a stranger for a number between one and six, obviously it takes me a while to sort of my charging mob of ork boys, but I find this gives me a more fair distribution of numbers.

Probably not, as by asking for between most people would avoid the extremes...

[Mr Mystery]

Simplest answer? Don't be prissy about your dice.

If your opponent wishes to use them, let him. To do otherwise simply suggests you have something to hide.

[Rapture]

Which type of dice are used is really unimportant. What matters is the both players have the same chances. That is what makes the game fair.

There is no reason to buy the more expensive casino dice other than to buy an advantage. There is a clear standard for dice that wargamers use. Anyone using casino dice and not offering them to their opponent might as well be using weighted dice as the outcome is the same - having better odds than the person they are playing against.


Casino dice aren't gaining an advantage, they are simply dice that are designed to match the probabilities as possible.
Compared to standard dice, they have a higher chance of producing a, generally, favorable result. That is an advantage.

[Animus Silvanna]

I have had the same Grey swirled Gold pipped chessex dice for like going on 11 years now and they seem like they roll pretty average if not more average on 3+ or better. Ive always wanted custom dice but laziness takes a hold of me and i dont thing i could ever not use my grey dice. I do however have 4 larger dice similar to the ones GW puts out every so often in those tin cans. All of which i refer to as my "Bone Dice" 2 of which actually look like they are made of bone (very cool) and they are bleach bone colored. I like to use them for my important rolls or leadership test, psychic test etc. The most annoying dice i can think of is this guy that used to come to our game store has these really heavy sound like they are made of metal dice and it seems like he never ever fail utterly at anything he does. Very annoying

[Psychosplodge]

I'd probably expect most dice to roll 3+ about 2/3 the time, or there abouts...

[Denzark]

Which type of dice are used is really unimportant. What matters is the both players have the same chances. That is what makes the game fair.

There is no reason to buy the more expensive casino dice other than to buy an advantage. There is a clear standard for dice that wargamers use. Anyone using casino dice and not offering them to their opponent might as well be using weighted dice as the outcome is the same - having better odds than the person they are playing against.


Compared to standard dice, they have a higher chance of producing a, generally, favorable result. That is an advantage.

Hang on Rapture. The game is designed on the D6 - not knackered old D6s that roll 1's a disporportionate amount of times. The designers have factored in any 1 score on a d6 being what, 16.66666666667%? Now if your dice a flawed in any way beyond that, it is not fair - regardless of what it falls on. A dice that continually rolls 4s is probably of more use than 6s, what with morale and toughness tests. These dice statistically are more likely THAN KNACKERED OLD ROUND CORNERED DICE to roll high - but not statistically more likely to roll beyond 1/6 or 16.6666666667% - as intended by the games designers. So how is that cheating?

[Denzark]

I'd probably expect most dice to roll 3+ about 2/3 the time, or there abouts...

Yeah roger that - and I would expect my dice to roll 1s about 1/6 of the time - not the 1/5+ being talked about in this study...

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah roger that - and I would expect my dice to roll 1s about 1/6 of the time - not the 1/5+ being talked about in this study...

Sorry Denzark was referencing this


I have had the same Grey swirled Gold pipped chessex dice for like going on 11 years now and they seem like they roll pretty average if not more average on 3+ or better

[Deadlift]

Metal dice are great for rolling at your opponents models when their bending the rules and measurements in their own turn and turn into rules dictators in yours. Watch their faces turn from smug to horror when your d6 decapitates their warlord. Opps sorry mate :)

[Psychosplodge]

Metal dice are great for rolling at your opponents models when their bending the rules and measurements in their own turn and turn into rules dictators in yours. Watch their faces turn from smug to horror when your d6 decapitates their warlord. Opps sorry mate :)

:eek:

[Denzark]

Sorry Denzark was referencing this

No sorry, didn't mean to sound snippy. I am coming to 2 conclusions:

1. Whether it is a placebo effect or not, I think I will invest in casino/razor edged, flush dot dice - as I believe they are most truly random and equal in what they roll.

2. To stop any shenanigans, particularly where there is a prize, TOs should consider issuing dice to be used, all of the same type - for the utmost fairness.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Compared to standard dice, they have a higher chance of producing a, generally, favorable result. That is an advantage.

Ridiculous. Casino dice are designed to give an equal chance of results. Otherwise they would not even be considered for game use.

[DarkLink]

2. To stop any shenanigans, particularly where there is a prize, TOs should consider issuing dice to be used, all of the same type - for the utmost fairness.

That wouldn't work. At all.

Just think about it. Now the TO has to buy a new set of dice for every single player, because good luck reclaiming a door prize which would effectively be what this is. And since everyone has to have a decent number of dice for those armies that roll a lot of dice, you'd probably need to go with one of those 36 dice packs. That's like $10 a person, at least, adding up to several hundred dollars for even a small tournament.

Then look at it from the player standpoint. I went to about 10 tournaments this year (Sacramento's flgs has a tournament circuit, and I went to several other various tournaments). If I was issued a new pack of dice every time, I'd have a few hundred extra dice sitting around, but because I get issued new dice and can't use my own dice, I have literally a box of dice that have been used precisely one day, then tossed in a box to be forgotten and replaced.

It's absurd, and it frankly addresses a nonexistent problem. I've seen dice-related cheating precisely once in all the tournaments I've been to, and that was as much about the player fastrolling and lying about results as it was about the dice themselves, and the dice weren't loaded or anything, just a color that was difficult to read from across the table.

[eldargal]

Compared to standard dice, they have a higher chance of producing a, generally, favorable result. That is an advantage.
No, they have a higher chance of following the probabilities inherent in a D6 system.

[Wolfshade]

You wouldn't need it per person, you could have table dice and if any are missing at the end of the round it is the responsibility of the people using the tables to account for them.

I think that it is not a problem, though some people seem to want to win at all costs those with that they roll for specifically for leadership, "snake eyes again?!" or invulnerable termiantor saves "6s all the way". Of course if you wanted to have weighted dice probably be best if you have them so they come up fours as that would be less obvious...

[FireHazard]

I am sad enough to admit that I love dice. I'm not a hardcore collector but I do have a lot! A very, VERY lot :)

I couldn't give a stuff about the mathematics or probability of the rolls as long as I'm having fun, they look pretty and they match the colour of my army (I have marbled red with gold spots for Sanguinius' boys - they're beautiful).

If you're just after pretty dice, check out eBay for some excellent bundle deals and these two sites:

http://www.wickeddice.co.uk/

http://splash.q-workshop.com/index.php?language=en

Or just go here

http://www.thediceshoponline.com/default.asp

[Mr. Furious]

I have found that the GW Munitorum dice seem to roll a lot more of a spread than the round edge chessex dice I normally use. In some non-scientific test rolls I found them to give a larger spread of results than the chessex. They are square edged and, due to the design of their markings, are probably about the same weight on each side. Try some out before you invest the ridiculous amount of money it will take to buy enough casino dice to roll efficiently.

[Wolfshade]

Don't forget spread isn't always a sign of randomness, the human brain is designed to see patterns and it does so very well so well in fact that some random song shuffles have been made less random in order for them to appear more random!

Also each dice roll is itself and independent event so it is possible that I could play a game of 40k and roll nothing but 5s.

[OrksOrksOrks]

No, they have a higher chance of following the probabilities inherent in a D6 system.

Thats what he's saying, people complain that the common D6s, chessix and the GW ones in the box, consistently roll low, with a 1 being more likely than 1/6, as you want to reduce the number of 1s rolled in general, using a casino dice should get this result. He never insinuated it was cheating or unfair, just that this is the only reason but if you were using casino dice and going against an opponent using common, rounded dice, you would be more likely to get a favourable result as they have the a lower chance of rolling a 1.

[Xenith]

No, they have a higher chance of following the probabilities inherent in a D6 system.

True, but when the game is designed and tested, and power level of units is decided by the rolling of 12mm, round cornered opaque GW dice...that roll proportionally more 1's...

Using casino dice gives an advantage to someone over using GW standard dice.

[eldargal]

Then you should buy better dice. Complaining about someone using casino dice because GW dice are rubbish is like complaining about someone using non-GW brushes because GW brushes are rubbish. They are not integral to the game, you do not need to use GW dice to play and many players choose not to anyway. Casino dice are just that do their job better and more fairly.

It is also worth noting that GW themselves sell square dice.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2401106a_99220199044_MunitorumDice01_873x627.jpg

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I has red ones of those. :D

[Rapture]

Hang on Rapture. The game is designed on the D6 - not knackered old D6s that roll 1's a disporportionate amount of times. The designers have factored in any 1 score on a d6 being what, 16.66666666667%? Now if your dice a flawed in any way beyond that, it is not fair - regardless of what it falls on. A dice that continually rolls 4s is probably of more use than 6s, what with morale and toughness tests. These dice statistically are more likely THAN KNACKERED OLD ROUND CORNERED DICE to roll high - but not statistically more likely to roll beyond 1/6 or 16.6666666667% - as intended by the games designers. So how is that cheating?

What result is most likely has no impact on fairness if both players are subject to that same likelihood. For example, if both players used a set of loaded dice that rolled 6s half of the time, the game would still be fair - different, but fair. The standard dice roll more 1s. Using dice that roll fewer 1s gives an advantage over the other player.

The game might be designed to work with 1/6 probability of each result, but the dice used to play give a less even spread distributed more on the 1. Altering the spread using different dice (whether they have a small bit of lead near the 1 edge or have a different shape - which, outside the level of pathetic-ness, are really the same thing) is cheating.


No, they have a higher chance of following the probabilities inherent in a D6 system.

No kidding. That is why people who buy 'better' (which you just admitted) dice buy themselves an advantage.

I am not sure what your argument is (which brushes are used certainly does not make one space marine more likely to kill another), but casino dice are an advantage over others player, everyone knows they are an advantage, and the people who use them to gain an advantage might as well be moving an extra inch or giving models free upgrades.

[Popsical]

Who's more pathetic, the guy who uses whatever dice they please, or the guy who bleats about it?
Really, are you the kind of fella who would gripe during or after a game because your oppo's dice weren't as cheap as yours?

[Rapture]

Who's more pathetic, the guy who uses whatever dice they please, or the guy who bleats about it?
Really, are you the kind of fella who would gripe during or after a game because your oppo's dice weren't as cheap as yours?

Feel free to actually think about what we are talking about and attempt to add something.

An advantage is an advantage. Using casino dice is the same as using loaded dice. It is done for the same reason, has the same effect, and the argument that either could just as easily be used by the opponent is irrelevant.

I don't play against 'oppos' who are so desperate to win that they buy a different kind of dice that have a statistical advantage.

[Denzark]

What result is most likely has no impact on fairness if both players are subject to that same likelihood. For example, if both players used a set of loaded dice that rolled 6s half of the time, the game would still be fair - different, but fair. The standard dice roll more 1s. Using dice that roll fewer 1s gives an advantage over the other player.

The game might be designed to work with 1/6 probability of each result, but the dice used to play give a less even spread distributed more on the 1. Altering the spread using different dice (whether they have a small bit of lead near the 1 edge or have a different shape - which, outside the level of pathetic-ness, are really the same thing) is cheating.



No kidding. That is why people who buy 'better' (which you just admitted) dice buy themselves an advantage.

I am not sure what your argument is (which brushes are used certainly does not make one space marine more likely to kill another), but casino dice are an advantage over others player, everyone knows they are an advantage, and the people who use them to gain an advantage might as well be moving an extra inch or giving models free upgrades.

I want a random spread! I want to get a 1 or a 6 only 1 out of every six rolls respectively! How the hell is that cheating? To say some one that wants to achieve this is a cheat - without taking into account their motivation - which you have latched onto as 'wanting to roll less ones' not the actuality of what I am saying - 'I want more random because rolling 1 1/5 on knackered dice is rubbish' - makes no effing sense! It is about as much cheating as saying 'Rapture uses GW dice because it favours his army to roll more ones - toughness tests and leadership tests'.

Absolutely barking.

[Popsical]

Feel free to actually think about what we are talking about and attempt to add something.

An advantage is an advantage. Using casino dice is the same as using loaded dice. It is done for the same reason, has the same effect, and the argument that either could just as easily be used by the opponent is irrelevant.

I don't play against 'oppos' who are so desperate to win that they buy a different kind of dice that have a statistical advantage.

But your cheating on toughness tests and leadership tests, you naughty cheating swine you! :eek:
The same arguement could be said for new codices, as they are generally better than the last.
Should we all use the same codex to avoid unfair advantages?
As long as players dont use deliberately loaded dice for specific purposes, all is fair in love and war.
If Casino dice are cheating maybe you should go to Vegas and complain!
Your arguement is "pathetic", and i wonder if you have felt aggreived at a past opponents dice to provoke such vehement dislike.
Grow up man, its toy bloody soldiers! :D

[Rapture]

Why is it rubbish? What does it matter? It doesn't.

Besides, the only reason outside of statistical perfection being part of your religion is that you want to have better die rolls. The is a standard for dice. Everyone knows it and everyone uses dice that fit that standard. Unless, of course, they buy different dice for the purpose of achieving different results. That is the exact same thing that someone does when they buy loaded dice.

[Denzark]

Ths study shows the average round corner d6 is defective and rolls 1s more than it should. I am happy rolling 1s - but don't want to roll them more regularly because of defects. If I used knackered round edge d6 for rolls I wanted low, and casino for rolls I wanted high, I am trying to cheat. If I want true randomness as envisaged by games designers, I am not.

[Popsical]

Apparently not Denzark, apparently the game is designed to be played by players with inaccurate dice and a preference for rolling 1's!
Buying dice loaded to get a certain number is cheating, yes.
Buying dice to get all the numbers to be just as easily obtained is cheating? Your bloody funny!
Logic would say that dice that roll a number more often would be cheating, but your saying that evening it out is also cheating?
Cant win, we are all cheating lmao.

Go to a tournie and acuse everyone with casino dice of cheating, you'll make friends for sure.

[Mr. Furious]

Then you should buy better dice. Complaining about someone using casino dice because GW dice are rubbish is like complaining about someone using non-GW brushes because GW brushes are rubbish. They are not integral to the game, you do not need to use GW dice to play and many players choose not to anyway. Casino dice are just that do their job better and more fairly.

It is also worth noting that GW themselves sell square dice.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2401106a_99220199044_MunitorumDice01_873x627.jpg

Those are the ones I mentioned. Very nice dice and the servo skulls are sweet.

[Denzark]

Apparently not Denzark, apparently the game is designed to be played by players with inaccurate dice and a preference for rolling 1's!
Buying dice loaded to get a certain number is cheating, yes.
Buying dice to get all the numbers to be just as easily obtained is cheating? Your bloody funny!
Logic would say that dice that roll a number more often would be cheating, but your saying that evening it out is also cheating?
Cant win, we are all cheating lmao.

Go to a tournie and acuse everyone with casino dice of cheating, you'll make friends for sure.

For sure. Whereas wanting to take dice that roll 1s 1/5 instead of 1/6 is OK...

[Rapture]

I don't think anyone other than the designers knows how the game was designed - whether it is a convenient assumption for your argument or not. It would be safe to assume that they know (and use) the dice used by the majority of their players.


But your cheating on toughness tests and leadership tests, you naughty cheating swine you! :eek:
The same arguement could be said for new codices, as they are generally better than the last.
Should we all use the same codex to avoid unfair advantages?
As long as players dont use deliberately loaded dice for specific purposes, all is fair in love and war.
If Casino dice are cheating maybe you should go to Vegas and complain!
Your arguement is "pathetic", and i wonder if you have felt aggreived at a past opponents dice to provoke such vehement dislike.

Again - there is a standard. Meeting that standard means playing the way that the vast majority of other players use.

Codex creep is part of the game. We choose to accept it and play with it. It has nothing to do with a discussion of dice.

Using dice that have a higher chance of yielding a higher result is the same as using loaded dice. Obviously, it has the exact same result - an advantage over the opponent based on the choose of the outcome generator.

What dice the use in Vegas is completely and totally irrelevant. Obviously. As those dice are standard for those games.

I have never played against anyone who choose to purchase dice that would give them an advantage over me - for obvious reasons.

[Popsical]

So you wouldnt have any advantages using lower rigged dice?
Of course not.
Its a dice game, you choose to accept that too. In a game of toy soldiers, you would refuse to fight someone because of their dice?
Rather a mature attitude to take one feels.

[DarkLink]

You wouldn't need it per person, you could have table dice and if any are missing at the end of the round it is the responsibility of the people using the tables to account for them.


So now you have an environment where the TO accuses the players of stealing. That's a great way of fostering community and camaraderie. You're just going to frustrate the TO, piss off some of the players, and for what?

[Popsical]

"Again - there is a standard. Meeting that standard means playing the way that the vast majority of other players use."

Who has said there is a "standard"?
Please provide a reference for the dice "standard", so we can all abide from now on.

[Rapture]

Go to the store. Look at the dice they sell. Go to the tables where people are playing 40k. Look at the dice the players are using. Call dice companies and ask them what they sell the most of. You can do all of that, or you can just be reasonable and put some thought into it. Standards do not have to be explicit. If you are seriously going to argue that the chessex style of round corned, bored pip d6s are not the standard, then you will have to talk to someone else.

I have to ask you to try a little harder. You are really not getting the point.

There is a standard. Meeting that standard means that everyone is on a fair playing field. This means that there is no advantage. I would not play against someone with dice that had a higher chance of rolling 6s than the standard dice. I would also not play against someone with dice that had a higher chance of rolling 1s than the standard dice. That is why standards are good - they keep things fair.

I can't figure out why you keep attempting to throw shots about maturity. Although I do appreciate the irony of someone making thoughtless attempts at an insult by calling someone else immature. The issue is not maturity, it is fairness. One player purchasing dice that give them an advantage over the other is unfair. That is a very simple statement and arguing against it, in a reasonable way (keep in mind that there is also nothing in the rules that prohibits using loaded dice (or is that just another standard... should I provide you with a citation?)), will be very difficult, but I will still read whatever you would like to say.

[Popsical]

I have to ask you to try a little harder. You are really not getting the point.

There is a standard. Meeting that standard means that everyone is on a fair playing field. This means that there is no advantage. I would not play against someone with dice that had a higher chance of rolling 6s than the standard dice. I would also not play against someone with dice that had a higher chance of rolling 1s than the standard dice. That is why standards are good - they keep things fair.

I can't figure out why you keep attempting to throw shots about maturity. Although I do appreciate the irony of someone making thoughtless attempts at an insult by calling someone else immature. The issue is not maturity, it is fairness. One playing purchasing dice that give them an advantage over the other is unfair. That is a very simple statement and arguing against it, in a reasonable way, will be very difficult, but I will still read whatever you would like to say.

You are the first person i have encountered in 30+ years of wargaming that refers to a "standard" of dice.
Other than it having 6 sides.
I question your "maturity" merely because you throw around the idea that others are deliberately "cheating".
Others have stated their opinions, as have you. You have accused people of trying to cheat, when in fact it is just your idea of whats fair. Nowhere does any game ive played state that using non wheighted casino dice are not allowed or "standard", nor that it is cheating.

[Rapture]

Loaded dice:
Buying dice that give you an advantage over the other player.

Casino dice / 'better' dice:
Buying dice that give you an advantage over the other player.

Either they are both cheating, or they are both fair - as they are the same exact action with the same exact effect.

Also, doing things that are unfair is cheating. Any 6 year old can tell you that.


You are the first person i have encountered in 30+ years of wargaming that refers to a "standard" of dice.
Other than it having 6 sides.
I question your "maturity" merely because you throw around the idea that others are deliberately "cheating".
Others have stated their opinions, as have you. You have accused people of trying to cheat, when in fact it is just your idea of whats fair. Nowhere does any game ive played state that using non wheighted casino dice are not allowed or "standard", nor that it is cheating.

I have never read a set of rules for any game - ever - where it is stated that using loaded dice is cheating. Call me immature, but I feel like most reasonable people simply know better.

The standard is so obvious it is literally hurting me that you are denying it. I went so far as to give you examples of ways to disprove any standard, so go ahead.

[Kirsten]

there is nothing whatsoever wrong with using 'casino' dice, wanting a statistically average roll is perfectly reasonable, all this arguing back and forth is utterly ludicrous

[Rapture]

The problem, as stated, is that they give one player an advantage through dice.

[Kirsten]

not really, there is nothing to say both players can't use those dice, or your opponent can buy some of their own. You have a disadvantage for characteristics tests or leadership tests. There is nothing at all wrong with wanting a game where you are let down by dice that roll too many ones.

[DarkLink]

You are the first person i have encountered in 30+ years of wargaming that refers to a "standard" of dice.
Other than it having 6 sides.

And not being loaded. 6 sides, and not loaded, and loaded dice are hard to find. Easy to read is a favor for your opponent, as well. But other than that no one cares.



I question your "maturity" merely because you throw around the idea that others are deliberately "cheating".

He's a troll. I wouldn't bother with any of his crap.

[Rapture]

There is also nothing to say that both players can't use dice loaded to roll 6s. All of this has already been walked through in the thread. There is something wrong with using dice that are purchased to be better than the standard dice.


He's a troll. I wouldn't bother with any of his crap.

A valuable contribution. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong or unreasonable.

[Denzark]

There is also nothing to say that both players can't use dice loaded to roll 6s. All of this has already been walked through in the thread. There is something wrong with using dice that are purchased to be better than the standard dice.



A valuable contribution. Feel free to tell me why I am wrong or unreasonable.

OK. Looking at the study Chessex/GW = 29% 1s. That makes 2-6 71%/5 = 14.2%. That means casino dice are 2.4% more likely to roll 6 than Chessex GW. So you want dice that roll any given figure (in your case 1s) 12.4% more of the time. I want dice that roll any give figure (in my case 6s) 2.4% of the time. That means your desired variation from the norm is 5.16666667 times what mine is - so you are cheating over 5x what I am.

Tell me how that tastes after you have put it in your pipe for a wee puff. Rapture is 500% more of a cheat than Denzark.

[Rapture]

How clever.

Read the thread again. The idea is that there is a standard for dice. It was already explained.

[Pendragon38]

I have notices the longer you hold the dice in your hands the worst you roll, warming them from the heat of your hands.

[Denzark]

How clever.

Read the thread again. The idea is that there is a standard for dice. It was already explained.

The only stipulation in the rules is a D6. Nowhere is a standard laid down. I can't 100% guarantee I know RAW vs RAI - but I am pretty damned sure the games designers have predicated their rules on an even ie 1/6 chance of any given fall of the dice, not a 1/5 chance of 1.

There is no logic to think anything else and no backing to your claim that a worn out round cornered dice represents the standard. The idea you pertain to, exists only in your head.

[Rapture]

It does not matter what the designers were thinking. What matters is that the majority of the players use a certain set of dice that yields a certain probability for the result. Buying dice that change that probability is an advantage. The advantage that comes from casino dice is the exact same advantage that come from loaded dice, only to a lesser extent - that is the point. If you disagree, please feel free to explain why.

The idea is based on the practices of the community. I can only speak for my area, but I been a regular at 4 different games stores in multiple states over the past years, and I am yet to see anyone with a full set of anything other than those exact dice that you are describing. If anyone plays at a store where the majority of the players use casino dice, then I encourage them to share.

Ideas can only exist in people's heads. That is what makes them ideas.

[Denzark]

So by your logic, using casino dice that are weighted to roll 1s 29% of the time would be OK - because that is the supposed standard? What a pile of pish. You forget the 29% figure is an average. Some of these dice were rolling 1s more than that. If a player re-ran the test and then used only the dice that rolled 1s more than 29% of the time - up to 1/3 or 33% of the time, would you say that was fair? But they look the same as the supposed standard, right?

So what if someone without ill intent, uses round cornered dice straight out of the box, and they roll 1s to that 33% - is this cheating, or is it only when the intent is to have an influence in order to win, the cheating? I have already told you my intent would be to have equal randomness, not to win games. So how would I be a cheat?

Also don't be pedantic about language ie ideas. Unexpressed ideas remain only in the head, unfortunately yours defecated out of your fingers through your key board - it is still an idea and that is what we are debating. The fact you have resorted to arguing pedantry and semantics shows you have no answer to the mathmetical proof that you want to influence the dice results to a factor 5 times greater than I do.

[Rapture]

So by your logic, using casino dice that are weighted to roll 1s 29% of the time would be OK - because that is the supposed standard? What a pile of pish. You forget the 29% figure is an average. Some of these dice were rolling 1s more than that. If a player re-ran the test and then used only the dice that rolled 1s more than 29% of the time - up to 1/3 or 33% of the time, would you say that was fair? But they look the same as the supposed standard, right?

So what if someone without ill intent, uses round cornered dice straight out of the box, and they roll 1s to that 33% - is this cheating, or is it only when the intent is to have an influence in order to win, the cheating? I have already told you my intent would be to have equal randomness, not to win games. So how would I be a cheat?

The fact you have resorted to arguing pedantry and semantics shows you have no answer to the mathmetical proof that you want to influence the dice results to a factor 5 times greater than I do.

I don't need mathmetical proof. This is not a mathmetical argument. It is an issue of simple logic and applying it consistently, even if the result seems to initially be obnoxious. A few minutes of thought (or 7 pages of discussion) should be enough to overcome the initial impression.

Ask yourself if using weighted dice is cheating - it is.

Ask yourself why it is cheating - because an advantage is being taken, though not against the rules, by purchasing different dice.

So why are weighted dice wrong? Because there is a standard. The standard is obvious so I won't get into it again.

Intent is not required to cheat. Someone who did the math wrong and added and extra 100 points to their list cheated - just like someone who added an extra 5 points to their list cheated. How guilty they should feel might be different, but it does not change the result. It is similar with casino dice vs. loaded dice.

I don't know how many time I have to say it, but the standard applies and my rampant influence of my die rolls is irrelevant - as was said many times - as I am playing by the same standard that the majority of other players are.

Regarding casino dice with the same probability as normal dice, that would be fine. Think about it with no dice. We use a computer program to generate our outcomes. My computer program outputs 1s 29% of the time, your computer program cost twice as much and it outputs 1s only 16% of the time. Is that fair? The answer is obvious. If the majority of the community that we are a part of is using the 29% program, and you go buy a 16% program, are you cheating? Well, you purchased something that, although there are no rules against it, gives you an advantage. That situations mirrors using weighted dice. Casino dice have the same effect as weighted dice and it comes from the same action. There is no 40k rule against using weighted dice - but using them is still cheating.

So what makes casino dice different than weighted dice?

[Popsical]

You are hilarious sir! Telling us that it doesnt matter what the games designers think, is beyond cracked!
So your right, and people that actually design the game that you merely play could be wrong if they dont ahree with you?

Proof of trolling, and a bit of feet stamping tantrum. Your bloody funny mate lmao.

[eldargal]

Weighted dice are dice where the weight is altered to make them more likely to land with a certain side down in order to produce a particular result. Casino dice are dice that are engineered to have each side give a 1/6 chance to a fraction of a percent margin of error. They are literally the opposite in intent and design to weighted dice, if you can't see this then you are even more of a moron than I thought.

To put it in simple terms even you may be able to understand:

Weighted dice: Weight is unevenly distributed to favour a particular result.
Casino dice: Weight is evenly distributed so there is no favour to a particular result.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Rapture has clearly never been to a casino. :rolleyes:

[Popsical]

To spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds or dollars on a game and then buy cheap weighted dice, and then complain about it is rather silly.

[Wolfshade]

I think it is quite clear, these are the best dice:
http://www.lonslair.com/images/Opaque%20d100%20Poly%20Blue%20Die.jpg

[Aegwymourn]

I think it is quite clear, these are the best dice:
http://www.lonslair.com/images/Opaque%20d100%20Poly%20Blue%20Die.jpg

My friend used to have on of those. During DnD he would insist on using it for all his percentage rolls. Was both incredibly hilarious and irritating.

[Wolfshade]

I imagine that they take a long time to come to rest...

[Rapture]

Weighted dice are dice where the weight is altered to make them more likely to land with a certain side down in order to produce a particular result. Casino dice are dice that are engineered to have each side give a 1/6 chance to a fraction of a percent margin of error. They are literally the opposite in intent and design to weighted dice, if you can't see this then you are even more of a moron than I thought.

To put it in simple terms even you may be able to understand:

Weighted dice: Weight is unevenly distributed to favour a particular result.
Casino dice: Weight is evenly distributed so there is no favour to a particular result.

No need to throw insults because you are having trouble following along. Maybe take a break and try to calm down? The fact that someone as reasonable and intelligent as yourself thinks that I am a moron is almost too much to bear. Have some compassion for me.

It does not matter how the dice achieve the advantage, what matters is that they achieve an advantage. An advantage is an advantage. That is very simple to understand. The problem is -with either weighted dice or casino dice- that one player purchased (a perfectly legal, rules-wise) advantage over the other. Or am I wrong?

The advantage is exactly the same. The only difference is in intent and magnitude. Neither of which are important. An advantage of 1% is unfair and so is an advantage of 10%.

[Denzark]

I can't believe you are back again.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Now to forget that he ever happened...

[Kirsten]

out of curiosity, if using square edged dice is gaining an unfair advantage, what would you do against someone who had bought GW's own square edged dice? they do not meet your standard, they do not apparently meet the standard intended by game designers, so what would happen? would you refuse to play them? make them use other dice? just curious.

[Gotthammer]

I can't decide if this thread is the saddest or funniest thing on the board in a long time.



Edit: definitely saddest.

[Kirsten]

well I am planning on getting some of the square GW dice in the lasgun pack, then I shall make a lasgun for it to go in and fire square dice at people. I would be happy to share my dice, just don't think it is important.

On a separate issue, if rounded edge dice are more likely to give a certain result, what about scatter and artillery dice? are they more or less likely to roll a hit/misfire? anyone know?

[imperialpower]

Really an arguement about dice..... how is this happening!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I will ban him until he stays banned.

I will add that neither of my sets of dice seems better than the others. I don't think squared or curved edges make a difference.

[Denzark]

Well then. Sorry for the descent into farce. Actually, amongst the detritus, I have found some of the links to dice manufacturers and the study, quite interesting. So thanks for all the sensible contributions.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I like my square dice because they feel nice. Kinda ivory-esque...

[DarkLink]

They're great for knocking over your opponent's models, too. Enemy unit in assault range? Roll your saves at the right angle and they won't be in charge range for much longer;). It's just like bowling.

[eldargal]

I can't decide if this thread is the saddest or funniest thing on the board in a long time.



Edit: definitely saddest.
Agreed.


Really an arguement about dice..... how is this happening!
Because someone decided to argue that dice designed to be fair and remove the possibility of manipulating dice rolls were teh same as dice designed to be unfair and manipulate dice rolls.

[White Tiger88]

Metal dice are great for rolling at your opponents models when their bending the rules and measurements in their own turn and turn into rules dictators in yours. Watch their faces turn from smug to horror when your d6 decapitates their warlord. Opps sorry mate :)

Thats why i have my Fantasy Chrome Dice in my bag all the time........Sorry Smurf Player but Calgar needs a new face! And paint job :D


Also this is the saddest thread since...well...im not sure if anyone asked what color ultramarines are........

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, I put a stop to it. Rapture shall not bother us again.

[Uncle Nutsy]

thank you. Even though I found his pedantic head-up-his-arse arguments rather entertaining, they were getting old rather fast.