Mind Shackle Scarabs. Damage limitation.

[Deadlift]

Hi Guys
Been playing my SM in an escalation campaign. Not faced my next opponent yet but I know he uses 2 lords both with MSS. I saw my friends Typhus stab himself to death against one of his Lords in a previous game.
I guess trying to shoot him down before The Lord gets into CC is good, but I think he will be using barges too.
I was thinking of Lysander in a group of TH/SS terminators and letting the Sarge "look out sir" the scarabs if that's possible.

Please help :)

[Kyban]

As a Necron player I can tell you MSS are awesome, I've had a lord tie up the Swarmlord for 3 game turns and almost kill him without doing a wound himself (bad rolling on my part). It randomly selects a guy in b2b and you can't "look out sir" the scarabs.Just be careful who gets in b2b with him and watch out for challenges, if you can kill him before he assaults then it's even better.

[Nabterayl]

I was thinking of Lysander in a group of TH/SS terminators and letting the Sarge "look out sir" the scarabs if that's possible.
It isn't, sadly. As page 64 says, "Wounds allocated to a character in a challenge cannot be reallocated by the Look Out, Sir rule." You could use the sergeant on round two to do a Glorious Intervention, but I think the better idea would be to keep Lysander out of the challenge entirely by having the sergeant accept the challenge in his stead. The lord's MSS inflict a maximum of 1 wound (by the sergeant hammering himself to death, if you're unlucky), while Lysander is busy winning the combat with his squad and making the lord run away so you can shoot him again.

[jifel]

I believe that MSS is declared immediately after you charge, and I believe it is before the challenge. So, charge with a regular dude leading. If the Lords up front,he takes it, maybe kills one guy. Then Lysander challenges. If he accepts, smash him, if he declines then the Lord is forced to the back, and therefore not in base contact, so you can mop up the unit.

[Mr Mystery]

Pretty sure you have to challenge at the start of the combat, rather than your I step.

[Nabterayl]

I believe that MSS is declared immediately after you charge, and I believe it is before the challenge.
Both occur "at the start of the Fight sub-phase" (BRB 64, Necron FAQ 3). There's no indication as to which comes first.

[Mr Mystery]

Roll for it on each occasion. Only way to be fair.

Oh, and watch out for sods like me. If I have two Overlords, I'll have two royal courts. That's potentially 4 mind shackles in a single squad. Yeah. Opponents cry!

[Nabterayl]

Roll for it on each occasion. Only way to be fair.
As much as it pains me, I agree that this is the correct procedure.

Regardless, I think your approach is basically correct. You want a unit with high Leadership, with a low value character (e.g., a sergeant) to get into challenges, and that has a good chance of withstanding its own attacks. In an ideal situation I think you'd actually use lightning claw terminators, who are less likely to kill themselves even if they do succumb to the MSS, but can still take care of most opponents. Keep Lysander in there and you have:

Lysander to keep the squad's Leadership high and pummel MSS models with sempiternal weave.
Lightning claws to tear through anybody who might be accompanying the MSS carrier(s).
Terminator armor to resist your own lighting claws (remember that MSS inflict d3 hits, even if you would normally get +1A for having two Melee weapons).
A cheap character to accept challenges on Lysander's behalf, or to challenge overlords if the d6 roll comes up with challenges occurring before MSS this time around.
Shooting them is still the safest option, but I think you could throw that unit into most MSS-carrying units with confidence.

[Aegwymourn]

Actually our hobby group believes it falls under the "whomever's turn it is decides which order things that happen at the same occur." I cannot remember which page of the book specifies it but we find that is the best interpretation until it is specifically in a FAQ update.

[Nabterayl]

Actually our hobby group believes it falls under the "whomever's turn it is decides which order things that happen at the same occur." I cannot remember which page of the book specifies it but we find that is the best interpretation until it is specifically in a FAQ update.
...

Holy ...

How did I miss that??? [EDIT: Thanks!] You're thinking of page 9, which states:


While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally discover exceptions to the general turn sequence laid out here, when things are worked out as they occur rather than in any strict order. At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.

So, uh, apparently you don't roll for it on each occasion. The player whose turn it is decides whether to challenge and then roll for MSS, or roll for MSS and then challenge. I don't think that affects the advisability of keeping a low-cost character around any high-cost character who is going to be taking on a scarab lord, though. It can be used as a shield to keep your high-cost character from suiciding in a challenge, and as a sword to keep either isolate the scarabs or neutralize the lord's attacks.

[uglytater]

I was just wondering about this last night, if a MSS Necron is in a challenge, the wounds of the controlled model go against himself and not the unit he's being accompanied by, right?

[Nabterayl]

Yes. As the mindshackle scarabs rule currently reads (necron FAQ 1 and 3):


“At the start of the Fight subphase, after charges have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.”

Emphasis mine.

[plawolf]

Something I have always wondered about MSS, if they succeed against someone in a challenge and he strikes at himself, does wargear he carries that confers a better save count? I am thinking specifically of the Warding staff that grants a 2++ against CC attacks.

Going by RAW, I think it would allow the 2++, but it just seems weird since it is the staff that grants the 2++ yet the guy is bashing himself over the head with it, so how does the staff stop itself?

[Nabterayl]

Something I have always wondered about MSS, if they succeed against someone in a challenge and he strikes at himself, does wargear he carries that confers a better save count?
Yes. There is no such thing, rules-wise, as a "better" save - only saves. As MSS don't deny saves, a model gets its full panoply of saves to choose from.


I am thinking specifically of the Warding staff that grants a 2++ against CC attacks. Going by RAW, I think it would allow the 2++, but it just seems weird since it is the staff that grants the 2++ yet the guy is bashing himself over the head with it, so how does the staff stop itself?
With ENORMOUS SKILL ;)

[Simian]

If he accepts, smash him, if he declines then the Lord is forced to the back, and therefore not in base contact, so you can mop up the unit.

thats the rule from fantasy, in 6th Ed the model stays where it is, it doesn't get moved to the back