Mr Mystery is confused...

[Mr Mystery]

Good morning chums! Hope we're all bright eyed and bushy tailed!

Currently lounging in bed, and for some reason, thinking about why Nursery places are so damned expensive. You see, in Britain at the moment it's the height of political fashion to lay the blame for the financial climate at the door of those on benefits, simply (and grossly unfairly for the most part) painting them as work shy layabouts. Not that there's a great deal of non-anecdotal evidence to back those assertions.

Anyway, I happen to know a number of young families where both parents working just doesn't add up. Pour quoi? Childcare costs are astronomic, to the degree that many jobs would literally cover the additional cost and reduction in benefits, rendering the whole idea moot.

Then my brain ticked over, and would like to know that since we can offer free education to all from the age of 5-18 in the UK, why not include 3-5 year olds as well? Kids I know at that age are potty trained, and have a couple of free days of nursery already.

Sure it costs money from the tax payer, but think of the benefit to all involved. Kids would start school better socialised, and used to a formalised learning environment. This is only a good thing. Parents are then freed up to work, and again contrary to the media inflicted opinion, most want to work. Means they earn their money, and the benefit bill reduces a bit.

I know I've grossly oversimplified the matter, but for the above reasons, free nursery for all kids simply makes sense, no?

[Denzark]

Aha. I didn't know it was political fashion to lay blame for the financial crisis on those on benefits - banker bashing is far more fashionable and common. And stupid given what percentage of GDP in the UK is based on our financial services.

It is somewhat de rigeur to claim that too much is being spent on benefits. On that point there is a debate but, nonetheless, whether you believe it or not, it is unfair that a government worker (the clue being in the title worker) is on a pay freeze - so real time lowering of standards of living - and benefits rise in line with the higher of RPI/CPI - to make sure benefits claimants maintain as closely as possible a similar level of wealth to what they had before said crisis. I know cost of living has gone up - but their incoming wage has also risen so a real term freeze rather than real term cut.

Use of the term benefits covers a wide spectrum - some persons getting housing benefit potentially could be in full or part time work - so again, you are correct in that it is unfair to call them all workshy. Actually though, there is a load of substantive, non-anecdotal evidence to point out to the confirmed existence of large numbers of 'workshy layabouts' - by which I would mean those whose entire existence is funded by the state, even though they are able bodied and capable of working. I myself have seen or read plenty of interviews with such creatures, who often quite happily admit that they get more for doing nothing than they would for working the naitonal minimum wage for a 38 hour week. This is why benefits absolutely must be capped at the level of the average wage - am I right in thinking the rough calculation is £26k?

Your idea baout potty trained 3-5 y.o.s doesn't always follow - what age was your child(ren) potty trained from? There are plenty who arrive at Junior School not toilet trained, as lackadaisical parents think someone else will do what they have failed to do. If you took the children off the parents hands, yes they would have the ability to go to work. But would they have the skills, inclination, and jobs to go to?

I think your train of thought - cheaper/free nursery = parents able to go to work + socialised children with better work ethic = less benefits overall + benefit claimants not stigmatised -

Regretably does not stand up to analysis. It is like socialism - a good idea but add in the realities of the darwinesque creature that is homo sapiens, and it doesn't stand scrutiny.

[Mr Mystery]

Would all take it up? Probably not. But I believe a significant proportion would.

For every layabout, there are dozens of people who would happily work if it made sense. Combined approach is a better way than simply slashing benefits.

[Wildeybeast]

Free childcare for all simply won't happen since as a nation we are dead set against tax rises. We could vastly improve numerous public services if we paid more tax, but we simply don't want to. Furthermore, I'm not sure that the economics would stack up. Would the increase in tax to pay for this be counter-balanced by more parents returning to work? Is the saving made by those working parents currently paying for childcare going to be more than the increase in their taxes? I'm not sure it would. Whilst it would be a popular vote winner if you could do it by cutting back on spending in another area, in reality that simply can't happen at the moment.

[Denzark]

There is only 2 areas I could see for reduction in the budget - International Aid and the EU. I caveat that as reductions without upsetting somebody, such as benefits and the NHS, which I think are also ripe for reduction. I certainly wouldn't be paying for any boob jobs, penis enlargement or gender reassignment on the NHS - if you can't take the hand The gods dealt you, I suggest you get saving...

[Emerald Rose Widow]

On the subject on childcare, while that would be heavily beneficial, I doubt it would actually happen. Especially considering often times the cost of childcare exceeds the finances you would gain from having a job. I know many parents that one stays home because they just cannot justify the cost of childcare when it costs less to just have one parent stay home. It is crazy just how much it costs, but then again, those people caring for the children have to make a living too.


There is only 2 areas I could see for reduction in the budget - International Aid and the EU. I caveat that as reductions without upsetting somebody, such as benefits and the NHS, which I think are also ripe for reduction. I certainly wouldn't be paying for any boob jobs, penis enlargement or gender reassignment on the NHS - if you can't take the hand The gods dealt you, I suggest you get saving...

You say that as if Gender Reassignment surgery is just as cosmetic and pointless as breast augmentation and penis enlargements when that is just not the case. It is an accepted and highly successful treatment to a debilitating condition known as Gender Dysphoria. Which this is caused by a huge difference between one's birth sex and one's gender identity, which leads to long lists of anxiety and depression issues that takes away from a persons ability to contribute to society due to a list of issues involved. The world health organization recognizes this procedure as a means of therepy that has an extremely high success rate in making these people balance contributing members of society. So please educate yourself before dismissing and equating things that aren't even equitable.

[Deadlift]

Child care for us before Imogen started school last year was £750 plus pcm. Luckily the business my wife works for have a scheme where they refund the VAT on their employes child care costs as long as they are using registered nurserys or child minders.

But it's little wonder one parent decides to stay home instead, I couldn't because I am self employed and the wife had too good a job to give it up. Plus it ment the kids got to mix with other children and I think it did them some good.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Child care for us before Imogen started school last year was £750 plus pcm. Luckily the business my wife works for have a scheme where they refund the VAT on their employes child care costs as long as they are using registered nurserys or child minders.

But it's little wonder one parent decides to stay home instead, I couldn't because I am self employed and the wife had too good a job to give it up. Plus it ment the kids got to mix with other children and I think it did them some good.

unless someone has social anxiety issues, or Autism Spectrum Disorders, oftentimes the socialization is good for them.

[Wildeybeast]

There is only 2 areas I could see for reduction in the budget - International Aid and the EU. I caveat that as reductions without upsetting somebody, such as benefits and the NHS, which I think are also ripe for reduction. I certainly wouldn't be paying for any boob jobs, penis enlargement or gender reassignment on the NHS - if you can't take the hand The gods dealt you, I suggest you get saving...

We could save a whole bunch of money by not getting involved in pointless and unwinnable wars in the arse end of nowhere, but reductions in defence spending never seem to be high on the agenda of any party. They are only doing it now because they get away with it under the umbrella of cutting everything. International aid probably needs reform and a more careful overview of who we are giving it to, but I would argue that we have a moral obligation to help those less fortunate. I for one am glad that government ring-fenced international aid as one of the areas they won't cut. Like wise the NHS needs reform but any saving generated by that need to be put straight back into the NHS, not spent on new initiatives.
Greater communication between departments would also help save a bunch of money. I read a laughable article today in the Times that whilst Defra is planning to cull badgers in a futile attempt to stop the spread of bovine TB, the Transport department are planning to include badger 'tunnels' under all new road and rail developments so they can cross them safely. :confused:

[Wolfshade]

The cost of childcare is stupendous, I would suggest to any body attending antenatal classes to befriend their peers and set up their own childcare nursery, though some plannign might be nice so you have all the relevant qualifications/safety checks in place.

There are problems within the civil service about things appearing value for money. Recently there have been issues with agencies, such as the NHS who are buying things at way above market price, similarly for schools for ICT equipment, some of the rental fees work out many times the cost of the object.
Then there are issues of empire building, a sub-group of one body I work alongside has a very clear remit of what it is and isn't to do, and yet this sub-body has managed to spend millions developing policies and procedures that go against its parental bodies own policies, and covers what another sub-group is doing, but rather than discipline them nothing happens and they continue to do things out of scope.

[Psychosplodge]

Financial mismanagement within large companies/organisations is appalling.
One of our customers buys replacement dvd/rw for a product from their trade supplier, at around £150 a time.(their supplier buys it from the manufacturer and doubles it, and they've already more than doubled it to sell to them.)
We buy the same unit at less than £20 a unit from an online supplier because we buy them by the hundred, mostly to refurb their gear.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Financial mismanagement within large companies/organisations is appalling.
One of our customers buys replacement dvd/rw for a product from their trade supplier, at around £150 a time.(their supplier buys it from the manufacturer and doubles it, and they've already more than doubled it to sell to them.)
We buy the same unit at less than £20 a unit from an online supplier because we buy them by the hundred, mostly to refurb their gear.


yikes, does it really spiral out of control like that?

[Psychosplodge]

Yes.
A bog standard off the shelf internal dvd/rw. I'm betting they're probably doing it ex-VAT as well, so it'll be 20% higher in reality.

[Wolfshade]

I think this illustrates the point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19681437

[Emerald Rose Widow]

wow, just wow, I cant even....wow

[Wolfshade]

Yup. It is quite quite staggering. On a smaller note, the company I work for, we cannot buy our own tea/coffee we have to use the corporate accounts and despite us buying very large amounts it still works out more expensive then popping down to the local supermarket...

[Psychosplodge]

That's a whole new level of ridiculous.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Yup. It is quite quite staggering. On a smaller note, the company I work for, we cannot buy our own tea/coffee we have to use the corporate accounts and despite us buying very large amounts it still works out more expensive then popping down to the local supermarket...

That doesn't even make any sense, why would a company do this?

[Wolfshade]

Just remember what the bloke from starbucks said infront of the parlimentary committee.

- We aren't profitable in the uk for the last 15 years.
- So why continue to do business here?

Also they have to buy the beans from Starbucks Swiss at a 20% mark up and pay Starbucks Neatherlands royalty for using the brand etc.

All totally legal, and similar are done by Amazon, Google etc.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20305250

[Psychosplodge]

+++Redacted+++

[Wolfshade]

That doesn't even make any sense, why would a company do this?

Because it has carefully negotiated with a number of select suppliers so that they can achieve financial savings across the group...and a way of spending control. Cynically you can cross charge members of your own group for things at a mark up and so reduce your net profit and therefore tax liability, as mentioned in my previous post. It is also to try and stop buying things with a 500% mark up...

The idea is that by only buying from select suppliers you can get benficial rates on wholesale costs, though when we can get the same stuff but cheaper less than a mile away it does seem silly. Other things it makes sense, like our IT equipment is all state of the art dell machines, I'm currently running a i7 laptop for instance and that was well below normal prices

[Denzark]

On the subject on childcare, while that would be heavily beneficial, I doubt it would actually happen. Especially considering often times the cost of childcare exceeds the finances you would gain from having a job. I know many parents that one stays home because they just cannot justify the cost of childcare when it costs less to just have one parent stay home. It is crazy just how much it costs, but then again, those people caring for the children have to make a living too.



You say that as if Gender Reassignment surgery is just as cosmetic and pointless as breast augmentation and penis enlargements when that is just not the case. It is an accepted and highly successful treatment to a debilitating condition known as Gender Dysphoria. Which this is caused by a huge difference between one's birth sex and one's gender identity, which leads to long lists of anxiety and depression issues that takes away from a persons ability to contribute to society due to a list of issues involved. The world health organization recognizes this procedure as a means of therepy that has an extremely high success rate in making these people balance contributing members of society. So please educate yourself before dismissing and equating things that aren't even equitable.

I think you are a bit hypocritical to call breast augmentation and penis enlargments cosmetic and pointless. For the person that has to go through with these treatments, the mental anguish they face will be to them, at least as important as that suffered by those with gender dysphoria.

Also, I note you are from the West side of the Atlantic. You are not a user of the National Health Service - I don't think Obamacare goes quite that far just yet. The NHS is a service that provides emergency life saving treatment. It is paid for by taxes - not a swipe of the individual's creidt card whilst they are in the treatment room. I see absolutely no reason why, when it is a proven fact that life saving medicine or medicinal practises, across many afflictions - cannot be afforded, when all the things I mentioned - which are not physical afflictions rendering death if not treated - are funded at the tax payers cost. I think the individual should pay for boob and willy jobs and sex chaages, if they think they need them and do not have sufficient mental fortitude to live without them.

This would potentially allow the NHS to fund better post op-care, or the more expensive cancer drugs, etc.

[Gotthammer]

Denzark, saying stuff about mental fortitude does nothng but show you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Imagine looking in the mirror and becoming physically ill at the sight of yourself - not just "eww, I'm so ugly", but actually physically sick. Gender re-assignment isn't a single magical operation, either. It is a whole host of procedures that takes years (along with mandatory psychiatric evaluations) and can cost into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The genrally accepted suicide attempt rate for untransitioned transgendered people is around 20%, that is of course only including those where a fatal attempt is correctly attributed. Gender reassignment is held to have a success rate of treating dysphoria, removing depression and self harm of over 90%.

[Wolfshade]

The old gripe that mental health issues are because the person doesn't have enough mental fortitude...

You know it's not like people who suffer from mental health issues have any physical symptoms, I mean aside from altered brain chemistr but you can't count that as you can't see it you know, like cancer...clearly mental fortitude would resolve that :eek:

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yeah, Denzark, you totally dropped the ball there dude. You should apologise.

In my experience of playing Warhammer it seems to attract a lot of people with mental health issues, so you really shouldn't go around openly slagging them off for not having mental fortitude....

Seriously...

*facepalm*

[Psychosplodge]

He does have a point to some degree though, where is the line you draw in the mental illness stakes to spend money or not to spend money when it comes to anxiety/depression from body image issues of one sort or another? Especially in a taxpayer funded system?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

But to be fair he doesn't have a point. From my conversations with the various trans people on this forum; they have to pay for their operations themselves.
That's true in the UK too, as I do know someone from my old school who switched genders.

So no, I don't accept that.

[Wolfshade]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and Denzark shouldn't be made to appologise for that. I disagree with him, he disagrees with me, we can have a discussion about it and he could change his mind or I could change mine or both of us can believe the other to be wrong and leave it at that.

I think there does need to be a line in the sand drawn, after all there are people who think body perception issues should be solved surgically, others believe that these should be resolved pyschologically. In truth I do not think that there is sufficient evidence either way. Certainly I can see examples of where surgury does not resolve body issues, and vice versa.

[Psychosplodge]

I know people who have paid, and had it paid for, it's down to what diagnosis you get or your PCT(basicly where you live in the country) or something.
What I was getting at was if they fund gender reassignment on grounds of anxiety/depression, why would you exclude enlargements if they cause the same issues in someone who thinks they require them and not doing so causes anxiety/depression just the same? What I was asking is where is the line?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Right, this thread is not about anxiety/depression.

Drop the subject and move it to another thread.

[Wolfshade]

+++Redacted+++

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Did you read my previous statement?

[Wolfshade]

I was writting edditing it before you post appeared.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Okay.

[Denzark]

Yeah, Denzark, you totally dropped the ball there dude. You should apologise.

In my experience of playing Warhammer it seems to attract a lot of people with mental health issues, so you really shouldn't go around openly slagging them off for not having mental fortitude....

Seriously...

*facepalm*

I think not baby puppy.

I notice that no one decided to pick up on the point that ERW writes off Breast/penis enlargement as cosmetic and pointless. Again, I reiterate that to someone who has body issues that lead them to that point, their self disgust and loathing is equal to that so eloquently described by Gotty - their problem is as pressing to them as that of transgender. A girl who has been slagged off for being 'flat' all her life is likely to be in as much mental pain as someone agonising that they happened to be sprogged the wrong sex.

In my experience of life, there are many people whose lack of socialisation compared to societal norms, seek to write it off with a syndrome. Ie 'he's not a naughty little child whose parents should have disciplined him, he's got ADHD! Get out the ritalin' Etc Etc.

I'm not saying this is true in all cases, of course not. But just as I find this to be true, I wonder if TDA's experience of warhammer attracting a lot of people with mental issues - is actually people with socialisation issues. Maybe TDA you are actually writing off your prejudices by just conveniently boxing off lonely smelly geeks as having a mental illness. Who knows? I am not aware in 23 years of playing this game, of an increased amount of mentally ill players versus societal levels of mental illness- although I am aware of persons not within societal norms generally - ie the 'geek' subculture.

Actually I will apologise if it seemed like I was saying all mental illness is actually a lack of mental fortitude - yes it is not a case of MTFU. I encounter mental illness in my work - I have clinically depressed people working for me. I have regular breifings on battlefield stress and PTSD. We no longer hide these things away, we recognise and treat them.

However, It is a medical fact that not all trans persons have the medically recognised Gender Identity Disorder as diagnised in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - ie the Bible of Psychiatry syptoms. Even the Trans population do not agree whther it is societal, genetic, or a mental illness. Not all transgender persons are mentally ill.

So therefore I still think the NHS should concentrate on life saving stuff, cancer treatments, heart attack rates improvements, eliminating MRSA.

I also think it rich for Foreigners who don't contribute to the NHS to state that said organ of government should fund one or other treatments in priority to others.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well, for instance, I personally know about 4 or 5 people with diagnosed Autism that play Warhammer, one of which being my step-brother. So I'd appreciate it if you did not slander off him or his disability.

Ta.

I'm not discussing this further. I'm trying to enjoy a day off here and I have to respond to complaints...

[Psychosplodge]

I notice that no one decided to pick up on the point that ERW writes off Breast/penis enlargement as cosmetic and pointless.

*cough*

[Wolfshade]

Good morning chums! Hope we're all bright eyed and bushy tailed!

Currently lounging in bed, and for some reason, thinking about why Nursery places are so damned expensive. You see, in Britain at the moment it's the height of political fashion to lay the blame for the financial climate at the door of those on benefits, simply (and grossly unfairly for the most part) painting them as work shy layabouts. Not that there's a great deal of non-anecdotal evidence to back those assertions.

Anyway, I happen to know a number of young families where both parents working just doesn't add up. Pour quoi? Childcare costs are astronomic, to the degree that many jobs would literally cover the additional cost and reduction in benefits, rendering the whole idea moot.

Then my brain ticked over, and would like to know that since we can offer free education to all from the age of 5-18 in the UK, why not include 3-5 year olds as well? Kids I know at that age are potty trained, and have a couple of free days of nursery already.

Sure it costs money from the tax payer, but think of the benefit to all involved. Kids would start school better socialised, and used to a formalised learning environment. This is only a good thing. Parents are then freed up to work, and again contrary to the media inflicted opinion, most want to work. Means they earn their money, and the benefit bill reduces a bit.

I know I've grossly oversimplified the matter, but for the above reasons, free nursery for all kids simply makes sense, no?

I think what will be more telling is when/if the government brings in a bill to limit the maximum amount of child benefits that are available. Currently, there are two rates a higher one for the first born (which is transferrable to subsequent children upon their 18th birthday) and a lower one for the rest. With the proposed plan this would limit the amount of cash for this, it would also therefore reduce the demand for child care places and therefore reduce the cost per child. Afterall it is oft said that a Morgan is more expensive by the time you pick it up then when you order it as the demand for them is so high.

I refute the claims that "most want to work" as there is no solid evidence to show this. I know of cases where this is the case, and have mentioned them on here previously, similiarly I know of cases where this is not the case and having additional children is the game plan to earn more money.

I think the simple test would be to see which is more expensive to the tax payer. Is it cheaper to keep these people at home looking after their children or is it cheaper to provide them with the opportuinity to work.

There is one thing that I think people forget. Having children is a privalge and not a right. I do not see why those who choose not to have them, or are unable to should be made to pay for those which do.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*cough*

I already spoke to her about it.

[Psychosplodge]

I think what will be more telling is when/if the government brings in a bill to limit the maximum amount of child benefits that are available. Currently, there are two rates a higher one for the first born (which is transferrable to subsequent children upon their 18th birthday) and a lower one for the rest. With the proposed plan this would limit the amount of cash for this, it would also therefore reduce the demand for child care places and therefore reduce the cost per child. Afterall it is oft said that a Morgan is more expensive by the time you pick it up then when you order it as the demand for them is so high.

There should be no additional benefits after the first two. As Wolfie said, people have no RIGHT to children. We are already over populated, having two and no more should provide a slow population decline to a more sensible population.


I refute the claims that "most want to work" as there is no solid evidence to show this. I know of cases where this is the case, and have mentioned them on here previously, similiarly I know of cases where this is not the case and having additional children is the game plan to earn more money.


I personally know of tow people who do this. The SO has told me many times about a third of the girls she went to school with had this as a life plan.

[eldargal]

I notice that no one decided to pick up on the point that ERW writes off Breast/penis enlargement as cosmetic and pointless. Again, I reiterate that to someone who has body issues that lead them to that point, their self disgust and loathing is equal to that so eloquently described by Gotty - their problem is as pressing to them as that of transgender. A girl who has been slagged off for being 'flat' all her life is likely to be in as much mental pain as someone agonising that they happened to be sprogged the wrong sex.
Without wanting to downplay what years of teasing about ones appearance can do to ones mental state, I don't think you can equate the two. The attempted suicide rate amongst A-cup girls is not 25 times the rate (http://www.livescience.com/11208-high-suicide-risk-prejudice-plague-transgender-people.html) of the general populace of the US, to cite one example. The actual rate of suicide is likely higher as a lot of people apparently commit suicide before 'coming out'.

[Psychosplodge]

I already spoke to her about it.

?
?

[Psychosplodge]

Without wanting to downplay what years of teasing about ones appearance can do to ones mental state, I don't think you can equate the two. The attempted suicide rate amongst A-cup girls is not 25 times the rate (http://www.livescience.com/11208-high-suicide-risk-prejudice-plague-transgender-people.html) of the general populace of the US, to cite one example. The actual rate of suicide is likely higher as a lot of people apparently commit suicide before 'coming out'.

Is that a fair statement though? The US is probably the most conservative/religious western nation, and that could easily be equally at fault rather than the disoreder/illness whichever the correct term is.
Trying to come out, or not being "normal" outside of the west coast and some of the east I would imagine is next to impossible.

[eldargal]

Doesn't really matter, the issue is the mental stress. Girls with small breasts don't get put under that same kind of pressure even if they do get teased. It's not much lower here, 33-34%.

[Psychosplodge]

Doesn't really matter, the issue is the mental stress. Girls with small breasts don't get put under that same kind of pressure even if they do get teased. It's not much lower here, 33-34%.

If we have comparative levels fair enough, I stand corrected.

[Denzark]

Doesn't really matter, the issue is the mental stress. Girls with small breasts don't get put under that same kind of pressure even if they do get teased. It's not much lower here, 33-34%.

Everyone has different levels of tolerance of stress and reacts differently to different stressors. You cannot possibly empathise with 100% of girls who have breast modifications and 100% of tansgender persons who have some form of gender re-assignment, and then guaurantee you know for a fact that one is a harsher affliction which affects them worse.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

SO MUCH FOR KEEPING TO THE TOPIC.

Talos give me strength...

[Denzark]

It is however, an interesting an adult debate - mayhap not as amusing as a derailment by the horsemen perchance, but no less valid for a' that.

[Psychosplodge]

I don't know, sometimes we go down the sensible debate route too...

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why don't you make a thread titled "Anxiety and Depression debate"?


an interesting an adult debate

Also, extremely condescending phrase there.

[Wolfshade]

We did happenstance on that rarest of rarest an attempted re-railment by an horseman

[Psychosplodge]

which had token support...till the topic took off again...

[Gotthammer]

Everyone has different levels of tolerance of stress and reacts differently to different stressors. You cannot possibly empathise with 100% of girls who have breast modifications and 100% of tansgender persons who have some form of gender re-assignment, and then guaurantee you know for a fact that one is a harsher affliction which affects them worse.

As a relevent point, to go for gender reassignment surgery a person has to have lived a year or more as their prefered gender full time (ie 24/7, no time off for granny's 90th or it's back to square one) and been under constant psychiatric evaluation for that period. It's often longer, so there is significant checking involved to make sure the person is a) sure themselves, and b) genuinely in need of this 'fix'.
I think that if someone is under as much stress as gender dysphoria can cause, regardless of the issue, the state should do what it can to help its people.

Also, I appreciate the apology and return it for snapping - it is unfortunately an all too common attitude that many are unflexible over, sadly.


As a footnote, the DSM-V is going to do away with GID as a term, redefining and renaming it to gender dysphoria.