Teach me the 6th ed cover rules for vehicles

[Wildcard]

So, as the topic says, all things cover and tanks (and why not monstrous creatures as well).

Most specific i am interested in in what determines the value for the cover save (that much spoken general 5+ cover save, or does what ever grants the cover affect the save?)

Much like fortifications 3+ cover, ruins 4+ and woods etc 5+ ?

And if so, at what pages can this be found to be specifically for vehicles (and monstrous creatures)


Its something our group is having lots of debate in every game and i decided to get some final wording :)

Thanks for all the contributors in advance!

-Wildcard

[Nabterayl]

So, as the topic says, all things cover and tanks (and why not monstrous creatures as well).

Most specific i am interested in in what determines the value for the cover save (that much spoken general 5+ cover save, or does what ever grants the cover affect the save?)

Much like fortifications 3+ cover, ruins 4+ and woods etc 5+ ?

And if so, at what pages can this be found to be specifically for vehicles (and monstrous creatures)
The basic rules for cover are as follows:

A model is entitled to a cover save if it is "in cover" (p 18: "units in cover get a saving throw ...")
A model is in cover if 25% of its body (cf. p 8 for definition of "body") is obscured from the point of view of any firer (p 18, Determining Cover Saves).
How good the cover save is (3+, 4+, etc.) is determined by what kind of cover is obscuring the model in B (p 18: "The type of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind")
Special case: being in Area Terrain at all gives you a 5+ cover save (p 91)
Special case: if the shooter's line of sight to the target model passes through (!= over or under) a unit other than the target, the target receives a 5+ cover save even if the line of sight to the target model is 0% obscured by the intervening unit (p 18, Intervening Models)
Note that how good a cover save is does not depend on how much of the model is obscured. Being 25% obscured by a bunker gives a 3+ save; being 99% obscured by razor wire gives a 6+ save.

Unlike 5th edition, monstrous creatures obey the above rules in every respect. They are no longer special cases (though of course 25% of a trygon's body is a lot bigger than 25% of a space marine's).

Vehicles are a special case in four ways:

A vehicle does not obey D at all (p 75: "Vehicles are not obscured sirnply for being inside area terrain").
Instead of A, vehicles are in cover if 25% of the facing* that the shooter is in is obscured from the shooter's point of view (p 75: "At least25% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted (its front, side or rear) needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to be in cover").
Special case: if a shooter can see the vehicle but cannot see the facing it is in, the vehicle counts as being in cover with +1 to its cover save (p 75: "It may rarely happen ..." et seq.).
Special case: if a vehicle is obscured by fiat, it receives a 5+ cover save (p 75: "If a special rule or a piece of wargear makes a vehicle obscured even if in the open, this is a 5+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex").

So to determine if a vehicle is in cover, you need to:

Determine if the shooter's LOS to the vehicle passes through an intervening unit (Y: the vehicle has a 5+ cover save; N: keep going).
Determine which of the vehicle's facings the shooter is in. (Remember for later).
Determine if 25% of that facing is obscured from the shooter's point of view (Y: the vehicle is in cover; N: the vehicle is not in cover).
If the vehicle is in cover, determine if 100% of that facing obscured from the shooter's point of view (Y: the vehicle is in cover +1; N: the vehicle is in regular cover).
If the vehicle is in cover, determine what is obscuring it. Cross-reference with the cover table to determine how good the cover save is.

The basic table of what provides what sort of cover save is found on page 18. Additional entries are found on pages 104-105.

So let's say we have a shooter firing at a Rhino. Drawing our X, we see that the shooter is in the Rhino's front facing. The Rhino is in woods, with the side facing the shooter completely obscured by a neighboring Rhino. What is the analysis?

It gets no cover save simply from being in the woods, because it is a vehicle.
It gets no cover save from having the side facing the shooter obscured, because the shooter is in the front facing, not the side.
Thus: the Rhino gets no cover save at all.

Now say the Rhino is nestled right up against an Aegis line. As previously explained on BoLS, Aegis lines are cleverly designed to obscure precisely 25% of a Rhino's front. Now, the Rhino receives a 4+ cover save, because the relevant facing is 25% obscured (granting it a cover save) by an Aegis line (which makes that cover save 4+).

Go back to the first scenario, with no Aegis line, but shift the shooter a little bit to one side so he is in the side facing rather than the front. He still can't see the side facing, obscured as it is by a neighboring Rhino. He can see the front facing, even though he isn't in the front facing. The target receives a 4+ cover save: 5+ for an intervening unit, +1 for being able to see the target but not the facing of the target the shooter is in.

Clear?

* Note that when discussing vehicles and cover, it is absolutely critical that everybody agree on what the facings of that vehicle actually are. Page 73 tells us that facings are determined by "draw[ing] two imaginary lines through the corners of the vehicle." If the vehicle looks like a rectangle (like a Rhino or a battle wagon, say), its corners are easy to determine and this is a straightforward process. If the vehicle is not rectilinear (like a Wave Serpent or a Night Scythe), best to come to group consensus on where those "corners" are (e.g., my group treats Wave Serpent-type vehicles as having front "corners" at the points of the wings, resulting in a fairly narrow front aspect, but other groups might put the front corners at 10:30 and 2:30, resulting in a wider front aspect). Walkers on bases also probably deserve special consideration, as the BRB does not just tell us to set our diagonals at right angles to each other - so a group has to decide if a rectilinear walker like a dreadnought has a wide front aspect (corner to corner) or a 90-degree front aspect.

[JMichael]

Pretty easy. All on p74-75 in the rulebook.

25% of the Vehicle's facing must be obscured/hidden by intervening terrain for the vehicle to be in cover (Area terrain does not confer this). Note that in 5th edition it was a percentage of the vehicle, now it is the facing. So even though a Flyer may see more than 25% of the vehicle, it's the facing that it is shooting at (front/side/rear) that actually matters.

If the target vehicle is found to be in cover, it must take a cover save against Glancing or Penetrating hits just as a non-vehicle model would vs a wound (p18 - Cover save is determined by the type of cover. Woods=5+, Ruins 4+, etc).

If the firing model cannot see any of the Facing it is in the arc of (model is actually in the Side arc, but it is hidden and can only see the front arc) then the vehicle gains +1 to it's cover save.

[JMichael]

@Nabteryal: YOu beat me to it with a wonderfully thorough response.

One thing to be careful not to get confused reg Intervening models. If the shot goes over the unit, it is NOT obscured (p18 last sentence of 1st paragraph reg Intervening Models).

[Nabterayl]

Note also that, according to the diagram on page 73, even a vehicle's top (and, I suppose, its bottom) is divided into four facings. Thus it may be that a vehicle whose front is 25% obscured from the ground may not be 25% obscured from the air.

[JMichael]

Note also that, according to the diagram on page 73, even a vehicle's top (and, I suppose, its bottom) is divided into four facings. Thus it may be that a vehicle whose front is 25% obscured from the ground may not be 25% obscured from the air.

I don't see that the diagram or text includes the top (diagram is not overlaying the vehicle). And since the top is not the Front, Side, or Rear I still see that it is not a valid target when determining cover.

[Wildcard]

What about Dreadnought? Its legs most likely form atleast 25% of the models total height, but as a total area more like 5% (the torso being so bulky including arms of any type).

Lets say it stands behind a cover that covers it up the the waist (meaning legs), but its torso and weapons are fully visible.

Does it get cover or not?

[Nabterayl]

I don't see that the diagram or text includes the top (diagram is not overlaying the vehicle). And since the top is not the Front, Side, or Rear I still see that it is not a valid target when determining cover.
You're right, I forgot that they have a new diagram. But we still need to know how to treat the top of a vehicle.

Consider the case of a Chimera that is at the base of a 12" tall building, facing the building, atop which is a guardsman with a meltagun. A small awning or lower balcony means that the guardsman cannot see any of the Chimera's front glacis, and the vertical sides and rear of the Chimera mean that the guardsman cannot see the sides or rear. The guardsman can, however, see the roof of the Chimera.

The guardsman can see the hull of the vehicle, so he has a shot. The diagram on page 73 indicates that the guardsman is in the Chimera's front armor facing, so the shot will be made against its front armor value. Does the Chimera have a cover save, because the front glacis is obscured from the shooter's point of view even though the entire roof is open?

[Nabterayl]

What about Dreadnought? Its legs most likely form atleast 25% of the models total height, but as a total area more like 5% (the torso being so bulky including arms of any type).

Lets say it stands behind a cover that covers it up the the waist (meaning legs), but its torso and weapons are fully visible.

Does it get cover or not?
The truth is there's no indication, but I think most people go by actual silhouette area. I disagree with your percentages in the case of a dreadnought (I think if the legs and waist pivot are obscured, 25% of the silhouette's area is obscured). But in the case of a hypothetical vehicle with the percentages you indicate, I think most people would say the vehicle is not in cover.

[JMichael]

You're right, I forgot that they have a new diagram. But we still need to know how to treat the top of a vehicle.

Consider the case of a Chimera that is at the base of a 12" tall building, facing the building, atop which is a guardsman with a meltagun. A small awning or lower balcony means that the guardsman cannot see any of the Chimera's front glacis, and the vertical sides and rear of the Chimera mean that the guardsman cannot see the sides or rear. The guardsman can, however, see the roof of the Chimera.

The guardsman can see the hull of the vehicle, so he has a shot. The diagram on page 73 indicates that the guardsman is in the Chimera's front armor facing, so the shot will be made against its front armor value. Does the Chimera have a cover save, because the front glacis is obscured from the shooter's point of view even though the entire roof is open?

Yes. And because they can't see the Front facing the Chimera will receive +1 to the cover save.
I think this may have been done to 1 assist vehicles in getting cover saves form Flyers (who have the nice tall bases) and to perhaps better represent the chaos and fluidity of battle.

The only way I've seen this really abused is by shielding Razorbacks or Predators with Rhinos...but Rhinos are easy enough to kill!

[Nabterayl]

I can accept that, though I don't think I'd play it that way.

Any other questions, Wildcard?

[Wildcard]

Yeah Oh, one thing though came into my mind at the last second.

But before that: Thank you all very much for the good answers (and page references - this makes it a lot easier to get it right with the other players).

Back to the issue:

We've implemented that "X from corner to corner", but some issues came with the eldar vehicle hull (wave serpent in particular, but i believe the rest are mostly similar anyway).
Where the wingtip ends and bulk of the hull starts, iirc right at the level of engine intakes and pilot cockpit. At the area around this the vehicles hull twists in all manner of funky ways (you know just by looking at it), and while drawing X from corner to corner does help most of the times, its with this vehicle hull in particular that gives us alot of trouble figuring if it is straight forward shot, or to a angle of the hull giving it +1 cover save.

(The original most broblem with vehicle cover came from the vehicle and ruins cover section, where it was stated that ruins give vehicles 4+ cover. Period. And if the vehicle was seen from the other angle than the dude was firing from, it got the +1 = 3+ cover save. AND those were the only possible cover saves from terrain.)
At that point I was teached the use of that X-drawing there as well ;)

So, any good guidelines how you handle it, or you know it to be handled near you? Or are we taking this stuff just too seriously? :) (since there aren't no natural sloped armor multipliers etc)

[Nabterayl]

For the Wave Serpent and similar hulls, I think the important point is to identify the four corners of the vehicle, and just re-draw the X with a tape measure all the time. Find any thin, rigid object and place it over the vehicle so that it goes from corner to corner, and see which side of that physical line the shooter is on.

For the Wave Serpent et al., my group identifies the corners as the tips of the wings and the upper corners of the rear hatch, because those are all very easily identifiable points (as opposed to the engines, where it's harder to pick a single point on the engine). This gives those vehicles extremely narrow front and rear aspects.

[Wildcard]

Just to make sure i understand your point: Firing a wave serpent from behind so that you only see engine and wingtip is considered to be hit on the side facing, thus giving that +1 cover? And as such, it would have 4+ jink or 3+ if rest were completely blocked by ruin?

[Nabterayl]

What you can see is not the first question you should ask. The first question you should ask is where you are. Is the engine in the rear facing, or not? Even if you are "behind" the Wave Serpent, are you in its rear facing?

Let's assume that you're behind and to the left of a Wave Serpent, pretty much dead on the diagonal from the starboard wingtip to the port thruster. Somebody speaking casually might say you're "behind" the Wave Serpent, but what facing are you in?

If you pick the vehicle's corners the way my group does (drawing from wingtip to hatch corner) you are in the side facing (a tape measure placed from corner to corner would just barely pass to your right). If you pick a different set of corners (say, wingtip to wing root) then you're in the rear facing (the same tape measure now passes barely to your left). Each group must decide for itself.*

Now, as you say, let's assume you can actually only see the port engine and port wing owing to an intervening ruin (ruins provide 4+ cover, pages 18 and 98) and and that the vehicle moved at cruising speed last movement phase.

If you're in my group, you're in the rear facing, but can only see the side, so the Wave Serpent gets +1 to its cover save. It has two cover saves: a 3+ from the ruin (4+ +1) and a 4+ from Jink (5+ +1).

But if you're in somebody else's group, you might be in the side facing, shooting at the side facing, giving the Wave Serpent its base cover saves. It definitely has a 5+ cover save from Jink, and depending on how much (if any) of the side the ruin covers, might also have a 4+ save from the ruin.

* In case it helps your group decide, our rationale is this: by choosing corners that give the Wave Serpent a narrow front and rear aspect, it becomes more survivable - the thicker side armor and energy shield cover more of the vehicle, and it becomes easier for the Wave Serpent pilot/player to force enemies into out-of-facing shots. We feel this better represents the advanced, slippery nature of an eldar IFV. Your group might have different concerns. For instance, if you feel the narrow front and rear aspect make the vehicle too powerful, you can give it a small nerf by choosing corners (like the wing root, or the engines) that make the front and rear aspects wider.

[JMichael]

I play Eldar as my primary army and though each group may have their own verdict on the facing, I've found most are okay with the INAT FAQ.
See the diagram, but basically you create a box around the shape and draw the 'X' from the corners of the box.
3282

[Nabterayl]

I think the INAT FAQ is unnecessarily difficult to use (finding those points on the leading wing edges seems needlessly fiddly to me), which is why I prefer the approach of picking four points on the model that are easy to identify. But honestly, I think most groups will be fine with whatever is proposed first.