November Chapterhouse Studios Release - Lizard Ogres

[chapterhousestudios]

This month we see the official release of the Lizard-Ogre models sculpted by Robert Lippman. Robert has created two models to fill the ranks of lizardmen players everywhere. The first model is a lizard-ogre (which is approx 60mm high) with his ax in hand. The second model is armed with a aztec style club. Both models are cast in high-quality resin and are for sale at $13.00 per model available here (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=249) and here (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=250).

http://chapterhousestudios.com/image/data/product%20images/November2012/Clubfrontpresented.jpg (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=249)

http://chapterhousestudios.com/image/data/product%20images/November2012/AXFRONTpresented.jpg (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=250)


Next month will see the release of a Wyvern model that is our largest model to release ever!

[White Tiger88]

.....Really? that looks exactly like the current GW lizardmen with a different face and belly....even the same pose\weapons.....

[el_tigre]

Looks like the original kroxigor model with crappy versions of the new weapons sculpted on. I shouldn't criticize, having zero sculpting ability of my own, but there are very good krox. sustitutes out there, far better quality and more original.

[Mr Mystery]

So, when do you intend to create unique models of your own devising, rather than lower quality knock offs?

Also, note correct spelling of 'axe'. Ax should only ever immediately preceed minster, and refer solely to high quality carpets.

[Wildeybeast]

Apparently that yanks sometimes spell it wrongly.

Also, whilst I don't agree with CHS ripping off GW stuff, perhaps we could stop using their posts to slag them off all the time? I really don't see what it accomplishes. They make quite clear what their posts are in the title, if you don't like their stuff just stay away from the posts

[faolan]

While not a fan, lemme point out that the GW lizardmen models were, at least some of them, initially ripoffs of the D&D lizardmen minis, so let's not get too into a frazzle over this.

[eldargal]

Exactly, bipedal lizards with weapons weren't exactly pioneered by GW. I think these are rather nice.

[altbob]

Excuse me but I am the sculptor of these models. Do you realize how some of you sound, saying that these are the "same as" the current GW models except for the "face and belly"? As if an entirely different face and head shape were not a fundamental distinction? Not to mention that if you took the time (which you obviously didn't) to go to the Chapterhouse website to see these sculptures from other angles, you would know that they are completely different from the back as well. Indeed, the only real similarities are that they are, like GW Krox, humanoid lizards (a concept that pre-dates GW and belongs to the public domain) and stand about the same height as a GW Krox, 60mm +/-. The weapons are Aztek in character, but by no means knock-offs, nor are these in the "same" poses as GW's models, as any side by side comparison would easily show. My models are actually far more dynamic (meaning twisted, about to strike, demonstrating potential energy about to be released) and feature anatomically correct musculature, unlike the current, crudely carved GW Krox offerings with bumps and spikes added all over the surface in an attempt to suggest scales. The GW Krox are, in fact, quite routinely dismissed as the worst in the range by most Lizardman players.

I am frankly amazed by the dismissive tone of some of these posts. They seem (as Wildeybeast points out) a knee jerk-reaction to Chapterhouse by those who perhaps are having some sort of Stockholm Syndrome reaction to GW's lawsuit against that company (which I note was just yesterday substantially tossed out by the Illinois Federal District Court).

You don't have to like my sculpting, tastes surely can differ and I don't expect to, or desire to please everyone. Indeed, I refused some requests when these minis were W.I.P., to add spikes and skulls to them. That said, in my book having additional choice in the market is a good thing both for consumers and for the hobby in general. The alternative is GW having an almost complete monopoly and semi-annual price increases with impunity.

[Psychosplodge]

I am frankly amazed by the dismissive tone of some of these posts. They seem (as Wildeybeast points out) a knee jerk-reaction to Chapterhouse by those who perhaps are having some sort of Stockholm Syndrome reaction to GW's lawsuit against that company (which I note was just yesterday substantially tossed out by the Illinois Federal District Court).

Far from "tossed out".


EDIT: sorry, ignore all the asterisks. Those appear to have been inserted somewhere between Notepad, my webmail, and posting.

Genuine lawyer #1 here, as requested.

Short version:

GW definitely owns the copyright to the works in question (with one small exception, with respect to which it may or may not own the copyright).
The things in question are copyrightable.
A jury will decide whether Chapterhouse actually copied GW's stuff.
A jury will decide whether Chapterhouse actually infringes GW's trademarks.

Long version follows.

To preface, the theory of summary judgment:

"Summary judgment" is when a court decides matters of law without deciding matters of fact.* Since lawsuits are fundamentally about a court deciding what is true in the "he said, she said" morass of conflicting stories that the plaintiff and defendant tell, this often surprises lay people.* However, if you think about it a little more, you'll see that this could (and does) happen all the time.* A party asking a court for summary judgment says, "Even if you accept my opponent's factual statements as true - and I'm not admitting that they are - I still win."* Essentially, they've failed to allege facts that support the lawsuit.* If you would win assuming that everything about your opponent's story is true, there's no need to figure out whether your opponent's story is true.

So, granting summary judgment is a court saying that one side wins, even if their opponent's factual allegations are all 100% true.* But denying summary judgment doesn't mean anybody loses.* It only means that the court feels that it has to go to the trouble of figuring out what the facts actually are before deciding who wins.

That said, on to the actual summary judgments granted and denied:

GW WITHDRAWS ITS CLAIM THAT CHAPTERHOUSE COPIED CERTAIN SPECIFIC PRODUCTS
On page 6, the court says:


Chapterhouse is entitled to summary judgment on Count 1 with regard to the products identified in these entries.

"These entries" are products that GW is trying to drop from the list of items that Chapterhouse allegedly copied.* Since GW is no longer alleging that Chapterhouse copied these specific products (whatever entries 8, 15-16, 25-26, 28-30, 32, 38-42, 44, 70-72, 81, 84-86, 88-89, 91-93, 107, and 109 on the Second Revised Copyright Claim Chart are), obviously, Chapterhouse wins with respect to those products.

GW DEFINITELY OWNS ALMOST ALL OF THE COPYRIGHTS AT ISSUE
Beginning on page 6, at "B. Standing and ownership," the court considers whether or not GW is even the copyright owner of several items (including the Blood Angels chapter symbol and the Rhino) created by several artists who were not, Chapterhouse alleges, GW employees at the time they created them.* The theory here is pretty straightforward: you cannot sue for copyright infringement if you are not the copyright owner.* If I sculpt a totally original miniature, and Chapterhouse copies it, I can sue Chapterhouse for copyright infringement, but GW can't.* Similarly, if Bob Naismith designed the Rhino when he was not a GW employee, and never sold his copyright in the Rhino to GW, then it doesn't even matter if Chapterhouse has copied the Rhino, because only Bob Naismith can sue him for that (if this were true, Naismith could sue Chapterhouse and GW both for copying the Rhino - but he hasn't).

The court grants summary judgment that GW does own the copyrights created by these men, except those created by Adrian Smith (remember, denying summary judgment with respect to Smith doesn't mean GW doesn't own the Smith-created copyrights, only that the court has to weigh the facts before it decides).* It has two bases for doing so.* First, Alan Merrett, who has worked at GW since 1981, has testified that he knows from personal knowledge that three of the disputed artists actually were employees at the time in question.* Chapterhouse's rebuttal is, "Well of course a GW employee would say that.* He's probably lying."* Now, the court is entitled to decide whether it thinks Merrett is a credible witness, and dismiss his testimony if it agrees that Merrett is probably lying.* But seeing no particular reason to believe that, it comes down to Chapterhouse failing to offer any actual evidence that contradicts Merrett's testimony.* Second, GW has produced signed copyright assignments by the non-employee artists, which transfer their copyrights to GW (for money, obviously).* Faced with this evidence that the artists sold their copyrights to GW, Chapterhouse apparently has no reply.

Thus, there really is no factual dispute as to whether these men were employees / sold their copyrights to GW, and the court therefore accepts the only evidence offered, which shows that GW owns these artists' copyrights, and thus that GW can sue over the copyrights they created - though note, deciding that GW is allowed to sue for copyright infringement is not the same as deciding that Chapterhouse has committed copyright infringement.* The only artist for which this isn't true is Adrian Smith, whom Merrett does not say was an employee at the time he was working for GW, and for whom GW cannot produced any documents showing he sold his copyrights to GW.* GW has produced a very recently signed document in which Smith "confirms" that he assigned his copyrights to GW for money way back when, but the court isn't prepared to accept that, so it denies summary judgment - in other words, it asks the parties to fight it out over whether GW owns Smith's copyrights or not.

TOY SOLDIERS ARE COPYRIGHTABLE
Starting at page 16, the court goes on to discuss whether GW's toy soldiers (or drawings of toy soldiers) are copyrightable at all.* It's important to note here that even though GW is an English company, Chapterhouse is a United States company, and United States copyright law does not care whether the product at issue is copyrightable outside the United States.* Thus, it is irrelevant whether toy soldiers are copyrightable in England.* If they're copyrightable in the United States, a United States court will still punish a United States company for copying them in the United States.* So, are toy soldiers copyrightable in the United States?* Chapterhouse has three theories why not: the things at issue (e.g., the Blood Angels logo, space marines, etc.) are (i) simply ideas, (ii) tropes of science fantasy, (iii) utilitarian elements, and (iv) names or titles.

With regard to (i) ideas, it certainly is true that ideas cannot be copyrighted.* But the court observes that the products at issue are not ideas.* There really is a physical drawing of the Blood Angels logo, there really are physical toy space marines, etc.* So the court disagrees that GW is suing to protect mere ideas.* Similarly, GW is not actually suing over any actual names or titles.* They aren't suing over the name "Salamander" (which is certainly not copyrightable, because you can't copyright single words or short phrases).* They're suing over a real, physical drawing of the Salamanders logo, which actually exists somewhere in England because a real person drew it on a real piece of paper.

With regard to (ii) common tropes (referred to by the legal term of art scenes a faire), a technical point about the law first.* It is generally impossible to literally prove that somebody copied something else - it's not like the Chapterhouse guys videotaped themselves creating their products in a room full of GW toys and art, after all.* From a technical standpoint, the court will assume they copied GW's stuff if Chapterhouse's stuff is very similar to GW's stuff (imagine if I wrote a book that happens to be, word for word, identical to The Hobbit.* It's technically possible that I didn't copy Tolkien.* But the similarities are so striking that it's a safe assumption I copied).* But that assumption only holds true if the copied stuff is very unique.* If Chapterhouse produces a space man in armor, well ... maybe they looked at GW's space marines and copied them, but how could we tell?* Maybe they copied Star Wars storm troopers.* Maybe one of the dozen or so versions of Mobile Infantry.* How could we tell?* "Space men in armor" are so common to science fantasy milieus that it's no longer safe to assume that person A's space men in armor copied any other specific space men in armor, even if they did.

Chapterhouse's contention here is that the disputed stuff is not so unique that it's safe to assume Chapterhouse copied GW.* To paraphrase page 19, Chapterhouse says, "Look at these shoulder pads.* Every space man in armor has shoulder pads!* How can you tell that we specifically copied the shoulder pads of GW's space men in armor?"* To this, the court essentially says, "I can tell."* While it is true that every space man in armor has shoulder pads (and indeed, many more non-space men in armor also have shoulder pads), the court feels that GW does have a distinctive style of shoulder pad - one that is sufficiently unique as to be copyrightable.* Similarly, while it is true that GW cannot copyright a chevron (the devastator symbol), it can copyright one of their distinctive shoulder pads with a chevron on it.* The point here is that the overall design includes something unique.* This is why the court says that the Flesh Tearers' chapter symbol is not copyrightable - you can't copyright a drop of blood, you can't copyright a circular saw blade, and putting them together does not magically make something copyrightable.* Put that symbol on a shoulder pad, and it's copyrightable, but the symbol itself is not.

With regard to (iii), Chapterhouse's argument is kind of jumbled, but they're getting at the doctrine that a useful object cannot be copyrighted.* For instance, I can't copyright a nail.* If I produce a super badass space gothic nail with a stylized skull on top, the skull design (if sufficiently unique) might be copyrightable, but the underlying nail is not.* You can see the analogy: is GW seriously arguing that it can copyright a Rhino door?* After all, it's a door.* To this, the court says yes, GW can copyright a Rhino door, because it's a door on a toy car.* A real Rhino door would not be copyrightable, no, because a door is a useful object.* But we're talking about a toy Rhino door here, and toys are not "useful" (i.e., utilitarian) in the eyes of copyright law.

So, long story short, the toy soldiers and pieces of toy soldiers are copyrightable.* Now we get to what all the lay people in the audience want to know ...

THE COURT WILL NOT DECIDE - YET - WHETHER CHAPTERHOUSE ACTUALLY COPIED GW
So far the court has declared that GW can sue over the copyrights in question (except, maybe, those created by Adrian Smith) and that the things in question are in fact copyrightable.* But at page 24 the court addresses the big question: did Chapterhouse actually copy GW's copyrightable stuff?* GW wants summary judgment on this point, declaring that any reasonable jury looking at Chapterhouse's stuff and GW's stuff side by side could only conclude that yes, Chapterhouse copied.* That being the case, there's no point in sending the case to a jury, so -

And at this point the court interrupts and says yes, actually, a reasonable jury could find in Chapterhouse's favor.* Maybe they will, maybe they won't.* There's only one way to find out.* And so, on the all-important question of whether Chapterhouse copied or not, the court denies summary judgment.* It says, "Let a jury decide that."

CHAPTERHOUSE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE INFRINGED GW'S TRADEMARK
At page 27, we leave copyright land and move to trademark land.* This is getting kind of long, so I'll skip some of the nuts and bolts and get to the conclusion.* GW alleges that Chapterhouse infringes various of GW's trademarks.* To understand how this is different from copying, we need a short trademark vs. copyright primer.* Copyright, as the name implies, only protects actual copying of actual things.* We can infer copying (cf. my Hobbit example), but at the end of the day, copyright infringement is about copying.* Trademark is about how the market perceives things.* Let's say I didn't copy The Hobbit, and somehow I can prove that, despite the fact that my book and Tolkien's are word-for-word mirrors of each other.* I did not infringe Tolkien's copyright.* Even so, if a consumer would look at my book and say, "Hey, I bet that came from the pen of J.R.R. Tolkien," I have infringed Tolkien's trademark.* Copyright protects against actual copying; trademark protects against companies masquerading (intentionally or not) as other companies.

And in order to decide that, the key legal question is this: if a consumer looked at a Chapterhouse product and a GW product, taking into account (i) the visual similarities, (ii) any other similarities (e.g., how well do they fit onto a GW shoulder or Rhino hatch?), (iii) the manner and location of their use, (iv), how careful consumers generally are when buying this type of product, (v) how strongly GW is associated with the product in question (a lot more strongly with the Rhino than with stylized dragon heads, probably), (vi) actual evidence of actual confusion, and (vii) Chapterhouse's intent, if any, to deliberately sell its products as if they were actual GW products, which company would she assume made it?

On this question, like the question of actual copying, the court defers to the judgment of a later jury.* The facts, it says on page 33, are disputed.* Let a jury sort them out.

[Chris Copeland]

Excuse me but I am the sculptor of these models... You don't have to like my sculpting, tastes surely can differ and I don't expect to, or desire to please everyone. Indeed, I refused some requests when these minis were W.I.P., to add spikes and skulls to them. That said, in my book having additional choice in the market is a good thing both for consumers and for the hobby in general. The alternative is GW having an almost complete monopoly and semi-annual price increases with impunity.

Nice sculpt, Altbob! I really like your work! Keep it up! Cope

[Wildeybeast]

Excuse me but I am the sculptor of these models. Do you realize how some of you sound, saying that these are the "same as" the current GW models except for the "face and belly"? As if an entirely different face and head shape were not a fundamental distinction? Not to mention that if you took the time (which you obviously didn't) to go to the Chapterhouse website to see these sculptures from other angles, you would know that they are completely different from the back as well. Indeed, the only real similarities are that they are, like GW Krox, humanoid lizards (a concept that pre-dates GW and belongs to the public domain) and stand about the same height as a GW Krox, 60mm +/-. The weapons are Aztek in character, but by no means knock-offs, nor are these in the "same" poses as GW's models, as any side by side comparison would easily show. My models are actually far more dynamic (meaning twisted, about to strike, demonstrating potential energy about to be released) and feature anatomically correct musculature, unlike the current, crudely carved GW Krox offerings with bumps and spikes added all over the surface in an attempt to suggest scales. The GW Krox are, in fact, quite routinely dismissed as the worst in the range by most Lizardman players.

I am frankly amazed by the dismissive tone of some of these posts. They seem (as Wildeybeast points out) a knee jerk-reaction to Chapterhouse by those who perhaps are having some sort of Stockholm Syndrome reaction to GW's lawsuit against that company (which I note was just yesterday substantially tossed out by the Illinois Federal District Court).

You don't have to like my sculpting, tastes surely can differ and I don't expect to, or desire to please everyone. Indeed, I refused some requests when these minis were W.I.P., to add spikes and skulls to them. That said, in my book having additional choice in the market is a good thing both for consumers and for the hobby in general. The alternative is GW having an almost complete monopoly and semi-annual price increases with impunity.

Glad to see you sticking up for your work. Taste is subjective, but I like an artist who is prepared to defend their work. I recall when you first put these on BoLS talking about trying to get someone to produce them (that was you wasn't it?). I'm glad someone did, though I'm curious as to why you went with Chapterhouse, given all the furore currently surrounding them. No criticism intended of you decision, it just strikes me as an 'interesting' time to strike up a business relationship with Chapterhouse.

[altbob]

Thanks Chris, and thanks eldargal and everyone else who has contacted me, privately and publicly, to express their support. I don't know why this needs to be so contentious to be honest. If you like them, buy them. If you don't have anything nice to say, well, what your mother told you when you were 3 is still true :)

[altbob]

Far from "tossed out".

O.k., to clarify, the entries 8, 15-16, 25-26, 28-30, 32, 38-42, 44, 70-72, 81, 84-86, 88-89, 91-93, 107, and 109 on the Second Revised Copyright Claim Chart are out of the suit. This is really rather important, as it demonstrates the complete overreach by GW in this case and how they have tried to squash a small company with a litany of claims that had no basis in law or fact. I wouldn't be surprised if when this is all over Chapterhouse didn't come back and GW with a claim of malicious prosecution to recoup some of their legal fees. Anyway, with out the massive commentary quoted, what I should have said that that GW did not win anything on whether or not Chapterhouse actually copied anything protectable - that will be up to a jury to decide.

Frankly I think the trademark part of the lawsuit has no legs and GW will lose this (I base this on 25 years of experience as a trademark lawyer, but I'm not going to get into the whys and wherefores on this thread). On the remaining copyright claims, I think GW has a very steep hill to climb to convince a jury that Chapterhouse's shoulderpads are copies, and the 'scene a faire' defense therefore is still going to be a part of the case and has a decent chance of carrying the day.

Anyway, this isn't the place to debate the lawsuit, sorry about my stray comment causing a distraction from my other points.

[Psychosplodge]

I'd think if GW win the copyright the trademarks pretty irrelevant?
but yeah there's a really long fun thread for that lol.

[White Tiger88]

I'd think if GW win the copyright the trademarks pretty irrelevant?
but yeah there's a really long fun thread for that lol.

I think they DID win it.......

[altbob]

I recall when you first put these on BoLS talking about trying to get someone to produce them (that was you wasn't it?). I'm glad someone did, though I'm curious as to why you went with Chapterhouse, given all the furore currently surrounding them. No criticism intended of you decision, it just strikes me as an 'interesting' time to strike up a business relationship with Chapterhouse.

Yes, that was me who posted these on BoLS months ago when they were W.I.P.'s. I actually posted them in a number of forums and got a lot of feedback from people, almost all of it overwhelmingly positive and even some of it over the top enthusiastic, begging me to get these produced. Any non-positive comments I got before they were released were fairly specific and constructive. By contrast, nearly all of the negative commentary after the models were released under the Chapterhouse banner has been rather curt, hateful, dismissive or has outright accused me of ripping of GW. I have wondered whether GW actually pays people to do this stuff to create a negative impression of other manufacturer's products (trolls? Sock-puppets?). Another theory is the Stockholm Syndrome, mentioned earlier. Or it could just be that the world is a much darker place than I had imagined... <sigh>

As to why I chose Chapterhouse, I guess I just admire their chutzpah. First, I honestly don't feel that they have committed infringement against GW. But secondly, by sticking to their guns the entire industry is getting some much overdue legal guidance. That in turn limits the in terrorem effect of GW's seemingly endless stream of cease & desist letters. If small players in the miniatures industry can breath a little easier and we all get more models to pick from, we all win. I felt the best way I could show Chapterhouse my support would be to give them the reproduction rights to my sculpts.

[lobster-overlord]

Nice sculpt, Altbob! I really like your work! Keep it up! Cope

Ditto. While not an active Lizard player, these are much more lizard like than the Krox, which seem to me to be more dinosaur-esque.

John M>

[Uncle Nutsy]

One, the fact that it "looks like" something from GW, doesn't mean it was FROM GW.

Two, you take a human body, stick a tail and lizard head on it and bam. lizardman. I doubt GW originally thought that up. And I doubt you can claim copyright or trademark on the human figure.

Three, i'm neutral in all this so if you try and claim i'm a CHS 'sympathizer', i'm gonna make you look like a heel.

And four, I think it's a pretty neat looking model.

[altbob]

Glad to see you sticking up for your work. Taste is subjective, but I like an artist who is prepared to defend their work. I recall when you first put these on BoLS talking about trying to get someone to produce them (that was you wasn't it?). I'm glad someone did, though I'm curious as to why you went with Chapterhouse, given all the furore currently surrounding them. No criticism intended of you decision, it just strikes me as an 'interesting' time to strike up a business relationship with Chapterhouse.

Yes, that was me - I posted these guys during the WIP stage on a number of forums and got a lot a very positive feedback, and some thoughtful critique too, some of which influenced the design. I stopped short of adding spikes, skulls and "fiddly bits" - my sculpting style focuses more on anatomy and a clean look.

I went with Chapterhouse because they offered me a fair price, they work with an experienced caster who I trusted to make an accurate reproduction and use very high quality resin. The lawsuit was a concern, but frankly I think Chapterhouse is within their rights and will ultimately prevail, and frankly I admire their Chutzpah is standing their ground. The end result is that we already have a much cleared picture of what is and isn't over the line, and small miniatures companies can now breath a little sigh of relief, and we gamers have more options, which allows the free market to function at its best.

Lobster Overlord, Uncle Nutsy, thanks for your comments. I'm just stoked that I don't have to have the same 3 poses repeating endlessly in my army :)

[Denzark]

...This is really rather important, as it demonstrates the complete overreach by GW in this case and how they have tried to squash a small company with a litany of claims that had no basis in law or fact. I wouldn't be surprised if when this is all over Chapterhouse didn't come back and GW with a claim of malicious prosecution to recoup some of their legal fees...



I wouldn't say 'complete' overreach old boy. That would have allowed you to state '100% of the claims were thrown out' rather than the few numbers you trotted out. Also, I would be interested to see what legal fees CHS could get back - I thought their super duper lawyer (yes the one who has had several objections over-ruled as irrelevancies) was on a pro-bono basis.

If I were you I would stick to a company like maxmini or scibor, they know how to play the game without taking the urine.

[Wildeybeast]

See, this is why I said can we keep Chapterhouse bashing out of threads for minis. Whatever your views on Chapterhouse, there are dedicated threads for slating and supporting them. We are going to end up with every thread about their minis devolving into the same circular debate if we carry on like this.

[Deadlift]

Nice sculpt, Altbob! I really like your work! Keep it up! Cope

Not a big fan of CHS sculpts in general, but I do like these. The heads have a more crocodilian look to them than the GW alternative which I like. I don't play fantasy, but if I did it would be lizard men and I would interested in these.

[Build]

For your first scratch built lizards I can't really fault these Altbob, you did a good job and hopefully you enjoyed doing it, that more than anything else is important, the second sculpting becomes a chore it becomes very difficult.

I remember seeing these minis on Troll forged, I originally thought you'd be sending these to Ed (I have nothing but good things to say about Ed and his company which is one of many reasons why I still sculpt for him). As for my opinions on CHS, well I'll keep those out as there's little point beyond sending the thread to the hellish point of no return.

Regardless, be proud and I hope you're satisfied with the work you did,

Kudos mate.

[kyfer]

Whilst I am not frothing over these models, I acknowledge these are far better and more realistic sculpts than GW's Kroxigors. I don't like the concept of bipedal lizards full stop and, as a 40k and Fantasy player and collector, I think the GW lizardmen range is arguably brimming with a veriatble who's who of the company's worst and ugliest models/kits. Don't lose civility so quickly is all I'm saying.

The sculpts don't appeal to me for said reasons, but they're not bad, especially if this is your first go at Lizards, Altbob. Always be proud of your own handiwork :)

[altbob]

Yes, i am very satisfied with my work, I think these capture the energy that I wanted them to have...big beasties with crocodillian smiles (check), powerful anatomically correct sinews (check), nasty brutish weapons (check), same overall size and height as the GW Kroxigor (check) and wholly original and/or transformative as to not violate anyone's existing copyrights. The resin they are cast in is of the highest quality that I've encountered and they look smashing on the tabletop painted up in my army. If you don't fancy bipedal lizards, these won't be your cup of tea, but if you do, I think the price is fair. "Full stop", as you say, Kyfer.

Build, I'd love to work with Ed over at Trolled Forge, but when these were ready for casting he just didn't have the availability/time and there were many people emailing me, anxious to get their hands on castings. No doubt in my mind that if I had done these with Trolled Forge the reviews would have been kinder, given the politics of the lawsuit. Regardless, I'm over it, and I hope people are too, and give these a second look. Thanks.

[altbob]

Just wanted to say, having been judged by a jury of my peers, I am VINDICATED!

After being put through the wringer, I shall now return to my humble basement pursuits...painting, gaming, sculpting and tinkering free of the threat of Games Workshop's overly zealous IP department and the very wide net cast in the Chapterhouse lawsuit.

Cheers :)

[Mr Mystery]

"Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking."
-Albert Einstein

NOTE: My post has been replaced because I was trolling...

[Kirsten]

Just wanted to say, having been judged by a jury of my peers, I am VINDICATED!

After being put through the wringer, I shall now return to my humble basement pursuits...painting, gaming, sculpting and tinkering free of the threat of Games Workshop's overly zealous IP department and the very wide net cast in the Chapterhouse lawsuit.

Cheers :)

not sure who you are, but CHS have been a very very lnog way from vindicated. it has been proven that they infringed copyright and they are paying damages accordingly. If CHS hadn't behaved like spoilt children they wouldn't have gotten in this position in the first place, shame they aren't having to pay out more.

[Wildeybeast]

I think he's the guy who designed who designed the not-Kroxigors for CHS. IIRC, the CHS vs GW lawsuit ruled the not-Kroxigors were in fact, not Kroxigors. So in this regard Altbob has been vindicated on his particular design, even if the overall water is still decidely murky.

Though I feel we should keep any CHS debate to the already existing threads.

[Kirsten]

his particular models, good for him, good to see independent model creators, I am all in favour of that. But then had he released them with any other company it never would have been in question. It is good that he can keep making lizard ogres, but then you can't blame GW for questioning it, the lizard ogres would not exist without kroxigor first, the weapons alone tell you that.

[Wildeybeast]

True, it's unlikely GW would have ever pursued them had they not been sold by CHS, but they were, they did and it's all sorted now.

[Psychosplodge]

"Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking."
-Albert Einstein

NOTE: My post has been replaced because I was trolling...

I think he had a valid point, it was hardly trolling.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I think he had a valid point, it was hardly trolling.

I would have had complaints if I had done that...

[bfmusashi]

Aw, I missed the dramaz :(

[Chris Copeland]

not sure who you are, but CHS have been a very very lnog way from vindicated. it has been proven that they infringed copyright and they are paying damages accordingly. If CHS hadn't behaved like spoilt children they wouldn't have gotten in this position in the first place, shame they aren't having to pay out more. Kirsten, I disagree with you. CHS got a slap on the wrist and gets to continue to do what has always been perfectly legal here in America: building after-market products for other people's stuff. Good for you, altbob! I love GW but I did enjoy seeing them get smacked done for their over-zealous bullying of folks engaged in perfectly legal commerce. Cheers, Kerstan

[DrLove42]

Kirsten, I disagree with you. CHS got a slap on the wrist and gets to continue to do what has always been perfectly legal here in America: building after-market products for other people's stuff. Good for you, altbob! I love GW but I did enjoy seeing them get smacked done for their over-zealous bullying of folks engaged in perfectly legal commerce. Cheers, Kerstan

To me they have every right to continue to make their poor quality parts, that are more expensive and lower quality than a lot of other companies out there

The biggest gripe to me is that they're allowed to use someone elses names to sell their stuff.

If i went out and started selling "Harry Potter" wands. Or "Star Wars" space toys. Or (everyones favourite) Ford Car Bonnets,t hat were not from the manufacturer who owns those names, but cheap things made by me, i'd be in trouble.

I'm trying my best to stay out of all threads that discuss the case, because the sheer level of idiocy from some people just makes me angry

[altbob]

In answer to the statement made above, I am the sculptor of these Lizard-Ogre models, and my comment relates to my own personal vindication, as the jury found that my models in no way infringe upon GW's intellectual property. My sense of where the line was in IP was correct, and I did not step over it. As an artist, establishing in a court of law that I do, in fact, have the creative breathing room to make figures like these allows me to be happy and productive again. And, having been put personally through the wringer over this, I feel it is my right to blow a big fat raspberry in GW's face! :p

On a related point, while it may be true that GW controls the largest market share of the miniatures gaming hobby, they by no means invented the genre or the "heroic style" of sculpting, as they have claimed. More specifically, in this case, they did not invent "lizardmen." Indeed, they didn't even invent the idea of 'lizardmen in a mesoamerican jungle setting', and were not the first to arm lizardmen with Aztec-inspired weaponry. Even IF these were ideas that COULD be legally protected (Ideas can only be protected by Patent. Copyright only protects a particular expression of an idea), the ideas actually originate in a variety of sources that pre-date GW, including: The 1981 D&D module "Dwellers of the Forbidden City" (which was actually reviewed in the Citadel Journal); M.A.R. Barker's Shen of Tekumel, the toadfolk of Karl Edward Wagner's "Bloodstone" (1974); Maztica and Chult for Elminster's Ecologies; Cult of the Reptile God; and, Runequest Dragon Newts, modelled by Ral Partha with Aztec looking weapons, dating to the late 70's. To say nothing of more modern miniatures, such as Crocodiles Games Sabeki figures, or D&D Blackscale Lizard Ogres - and I happen to know people who have bought my miniatures to use for those non-GW game systems.

The fact that I was personally swept up in this lawsuit, merely because I sold the figures to Chapterhouse and not Scibor or Avatars of War or Mantic, should give pause. GW testified at the CHS trial that they keep a dossier on over 200 miniature companies that they have problems with. The CHS was very much a test case for GW. Had they won big, they would have used the precedent to go after many more companies. Frankly, having one company with a monopoly over the industry does not bode well for consumer choice. And when there is less competition market forces cease to operate to keep prices down.

The jury in the CHS case considered my figures side by side with GW's Kroxigor and found them not to be substantially similar in copyrightable subject matter. I would also note that about 1/2 of GW's claims were tossed on on Summary Judgment before the trial ever started, and of the surviving claims, the jury only awarded GW about 1/3 to 1/2 victory (depending on whether you are looking at the copyright or trademark aspects of the case), and ultimately found that GW was only hurt to the tune of 25K. GW, which spent at least 300K to bring this lawsuit (estimates run as high as 1M, but I think about half of that figure is probably about right), and which ended up with weaker IP rights than they believed they started the case with, cannot be said to be the victor here, and if either party could be said to be a "spoiled child" in their actions, I think that description fits GW better than CHS.

The big winner, of course, is the gaming industry itself, for now the lines on what is and is not permissible are far less fuzzy. Referencing the same Sci Fi and Fantasy stereotypes/archetypes that GW draws from does not render your work "derivative" of GW's work - only substantially copying GW's art will get you in trouble; using GW's trademarks to engage in comparative advertising is not a violation of TM law; and, finally, there is nothing inherently illegal about being an after-market company, selling add-ons and conversion kits to help players modify someone else's work for their own personal collections.

[DrLove42]

Would you, as the sculptor had a problem if CHS had sold your unique designs as "Kroxigor" models? Not Lizard Ogres?

[Deadlift]

One question Altbob, not having a pop at you. I like your sculpt very much. But it's obvious that the model is heavily influenced by GWs own lizardmen models. Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that, especially when you take into account the style of weapon he is holding. Would you deny that ?

[altbob]

Deadlift, I have never denied that I was influenced by GW's models, and in fact I began sculpting these as a father-son project with my 11 yr old (he's 13 now), to fill the ranks of a Kroxigor unit in our Lizardman army. However, great care was taken to both make them fit in with the GW models, but also not to directly copy the GW models. I wanted them to be a wholly different species from the species that GW created.

The fact of the matter is, as I understood it, and as the court agreed, artists are legally allowed to be inspired by other artists. All human culture, in the end, is about one guy standing on the shoulders of those who came before. The fact that the law allows a LIMITED MONOPOLY and the commercialization of culture has to be balanced against an artist's right to create. So you cannot substantially copy "copyrightable subject matter" (i.e., original expression), but you can copy things from public domain (i.e., Aztec weapons) or things that are utilitarian in nature (i.e., the shape of a shoulder pad or the grip texture on an axe handle). And if you are 5% or 10% similar, that's still considered fair. More than that and IMO you are getting too close to the line for comfort.

DrLove42, in answer to your question, I would not have been o.k. if CHS marketed these as "Kroxigors" (they didn't, btw). They could have legally said on their website that these models are "compatible with GW's Lizardman army", or "would make acceptable proxies for GW Kroxigor" (they didn't do that, either).

[eldargal]

I'm with altbob on this, the case against his lovely lizardmen was one of the more obvious cases of GW overreaching in this case. There are other kroxigor proxies out there who bear just as many similarities to Gws models that weren't targeted (AoW and I think Trollforged). Altbobs were targeted just because GW was throwing everything it could at CHS.

[Deadlift]

Thanks for clearing that up Altbob. I do like the sculpt as I said months ago. It's one of the few that CHS sell I actually do. Most I find a bit "wonky" :D

[Chris Copeland]

The biggest gripe to me is that they're allowed to use someone elses names to sell their stuff.

Doc, I recently bought my daughter a case for her iPod. The case says "for Apple iPod 5" on it. That is a factual statement about the case I bought. Apple made no money on that case. It is an after-market bit made by one company to be slapped on another company's product: something that is perfectly legal to do here in America. The court reaffirmed this basic truth. What is the problem in saying "product X is made to be compatible with product Y"?

cheers, Kerstan

[DrLove42]

My problem isn't "its compatible". Sell shoulder pads that say "Compatible with GW Space Marines" I don't mind that.

Selling the pads as "Flesh Tearer" pads. Thats not saying its compatible with a GW product. Thats saying it "is" a product.

IN your case, thats not saying "this is a case for an iPhone". Thats selling a knock off phone and saying its an iPhone.




Altbob, thanks for the answer. I like the sculpting skills on your guy, but dislike the model (it looks like its playing baseball to me)

[Deadlift]

Well as the case is practically done and dusted now, I guess it's time to move on Doc ;)

[altbob]

Altbob, thanks for the answer. I like the sculpting skills on your guy, but dislike the model (it looks like its playing baseball to me)

Try to image him playing baseball with a Dark Eldar's head. Better? :D

Also note there are two figures, and the other one is chopping downwards.

It's been a while, so here are the photos again:

http://chapterhousestudios.com/image/data/product%20images/November2012/Clubfrontpresented.jpg (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=249)


http://chapterhousestudios.com/image/data/product%20images/November2012/AXFRONTpresented.jpg (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=250)

FWIW, you should really take a look at the other views (rear, other side, etc.) on Chapterhouse's website, as the detail on the back carapace is pretty unique, IMNSHO. Click here (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=249) and here (http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=136&product_id=250).

Cheers!