1500 Tyranids [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Learn2Eel

11-08-2012, 06:38 PM

I never thought about Warriors in 5th because they were always "missile bait!". With the new wound allocation rules though, sticking the Tyranid Prime at the front and switching around the Warriors behind it means you can soak up any S8-S9 weapons on the Prime and then LoS the rest on a 2+ to different Warriors. It makes for a crazy durable unit. I just have to watch out for Vindicators and Manticores basically.

I could drop the Hormagaunts. Now that I think about it, they don't seem to fit too well with the rest of the army list. Dropping them would certainly make enough points to get some Warriors in and also to get the Tervigons more psychic powers. However, I would mostly just be happy to take Catalyst and be done with it, IMO being able to guarantee a Feel No Pain psychic power is more useful in general than two random rolls. Mind you, a Tervigon with some of the Biomancy powers (particularly Iron Arm) becomes absolutely unfair when holding an objective. I'll have to try it out.

Still not sold on Carnifexes unfortunately, but that configuration you posted is actually quite good. The best part is again, per the wound allocation rules, you can just swap around Carnifexes (if they are in a brood) to soak up damage. And the cover rules for monstrous creatures mean they can pretty easily soak up AP3-2 weapons.

Thanks for the advice!

HQ
Tyranid Prime w/ pair of boneswords, scything talons, toxin sacs, adrenal glands - 110

Elites
Zoanthropes (2) - 120
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines - 170
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines - 170
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Warriors (3) w/ deathspitters - 105

Heavy Support
Mawloc - 170
Mawloc - 170
Carnifex w/ frag spines, adrenal glands, toxin sacs - 185

Comes up to exactly 1500. Do you think it is a better investment than 36 Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs? Not so sure really. However, in my meta monstrous creatures tend to fair better than hordes, so.....
Also, this army list does look more like a proper 'Nids list, i.e. lots of variety. Got Mawlocs for disruption, a Carnifex as a battering ram, Tervigons as support and brood mothers, Termagants as the horde element, Warriors as the little elite element, Hive Guard as the light vehicle busters, Zoanthropes as the heavy vehicle busters, and the Prime as the cheap but awesome commander.
Only thing lacking is a Hive Tyrant, but eh. I'd rather not go full Nidzilla lol.

With the attached Prime, the Warriors average 6 hits and 4 wounds on standard Space Marines for one failed save. I dunno, just doesn't seem all that great to me. Mind you though, I am in a marine-heavy meta, xenos armies are incredibly rare where I play. Also, I like the Prime being used to soak up any instant-death wounds the Zoanthropes may have to take. Not sure.

The way I actually view the army list is like this; essentially the top half is perfectly fine. The Tyranid Prime is fine, although Adrenal Glands aren't really necessary, the Zoanthropes and Hive Guard are fine (I play on 4x4 tables so range isn't an issue for the Zoeys), the Termagants are fine, the Tervigons may need an extra psychic power or two each, etc. It's just that last bunch of points that I am still kind of divided on. I worked it out; the Hormagaunt broods and the Mawlocs account for 628 points of the army list. I'm just not sure where else to put the points that would work.

Are Raveners any good? Just looking at their profile and they seem to be quite good for their cost. A bare-bones 3-strong brood that falls out of IB range will most likely fail the leadership test, leading to 18 attacks on the charge at WS5, S4, I5. Woah. That's 12 hits and 6 wounds on average against Space Marines, leading to 2 dead. And when they hit back, they won't really be able to do too much either as each Ravener has 3 wounds! And on each subsequent turn the Raveners average a dead Space Marine. Pretty good for a 90 point unit. Oh, forgot to mention the Raveners had two sets of scything talons, so it is more like 16 hits on the charge and 10 in subsequent turns, i.e. 3 dead Space Marines and then 2 dead Space Marines, all before they strike. Bloody hell. Being Beasts means they have Fleet, they have Move Through Cover, move 12", etc.
I've always really liked Raveners.

Learn2Eel

11-08-2012, 08:12 PM

Had a look online and the recommendation is to give them rending claws or shooting attacks. In my meta, the shooting attacks aren't too useful but the fact that I can quite easily charge decent sized units and wipe them out is a great asset. I love me some flanking units, and a dual assault of Mawlocs and Raveners would be pretty scary for my regular opponents. I'm thinking 5 in a brood with rending claws, that is 175 points and I can really abuse cover where I am to get forward quickly and soak up enemy fire.

On the charge with rage, that's an average of 30 attacks hitting on 3s with re-rolls of 1s against Space Marines, meaning like 21-22 hits. Then, about 11 wounds, three of which are rending. 7-8 armour saves, resulting in at least two more dead Marines. 5 dead marines on the charge or thereabouts is pretty nifty, especially as only five will then get to strike back (in a 10-man Tactical Squad), resulting in two-three hits for one-two wounds and one-two failed armour saves. Given the speed of the Raveners and rending, they are a serious threat to vehicles and heavy weapon teams, devastators and the like. Against vehicles with AV10 rear, I should be looking at three rends on average, meaning I can also destroy AV11 rear with ease too.

Hmm how does 20 Gargoyles, 5 Raveners with rending claws and the loss of adrenal glands on the Tyranid Prime sound compared to have 36 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs? The Hormagaunts are more bodies and better on average in assault, but the Raveners and Gargoyles are only 11 less bodies and 1 less wound, whilst being much quicker with a bigger threat range. I am leaning towards the latter as the the Hormagaunts are too easy a target, yet the speed of the Raveners and Gargoyles means I can really hide them or use them as screening units to give each other cover and support the Mawlocs. Although, I am of course not discounting how quick Hormagaunts are as well. Just not sure which would work better in this army list.

Learn2Eel

11-10-2012, 09:39 AM

Have another army list I cooked up, does this look better than my previous ones?

Tyranids 1500
HQ
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (20) - 100
Termagants (20) - 100

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210

Total: 1495

In my opinion, two Trygons will do much more for my army in terms of target saturation than two Mawlocs. As well, the two Trygons are far better at dealing with heavier targets than the Mawlocs, particularly Terminators and other monstrous creatures. Plus, I like the Trygon model more than the Mawloc model, so that works out! After thinking about it, the damage the Mawlocs do generally isn't worth it, but I do lose quite a bit of disruption value. However, the great thing about the Trygons is they are pretty adaptable to the deployment type; I can deep strike them if I really need to or keep them as my two flanking units to draw fire. Plus, with the new cover rules, it is very easy for them to get a good cover save against nasty shooting!

Having the points to give the Tervigon's Catalyst is beautiful. Mostly I would prefer to keep Catalyst rather than switch my powers out, but taking the risk does pay off sometimes. Also, having thought about it, the Tyranid Prime was basically there just to be a cheap HQ. Having thought it through, a third Tervigon is not only much better for my army, being far more survivable, but it provides much better buffs - and more spawning goodness. Having a third Tervigon IMO increases the strength of the list far more.

Doubling up on the starting Termagants, as well as the other benefits, outweighs the loss of the Hormagaunts methinks. IMO the Hormagaunts just didn't gel with the rest of the army list, and having 20-strong starting broods means the Termagants are far more survivable and much better as tarpit units. It makes the list less reliable on spawning, at least in the early stages, and means I shouldn't concede easy kill points that quickly. I could realistically take four broods of 10 but that would just be overkill. I guess I can do that if I know it is an objectives game.

Overall I think this list is better than the others I've come up with, and best of all, it includes more of the models I genuinely like.
Again, still not trying to go for majorly-competitive or anything, but I want to have a solid army list core to build upon when I start collecting - I also want an army list that will do decently against most opponents I come up against.

I can tell already that this will be a good army in most objective games, as any Tervigon-heavy army-list usually will be, but it will also probably struggle a bit in kill point games. Thankfully, kill point missions aren't as common nowadays. There are a lot of very nasty targets, and given the small boards I play on, I am looking at a very likely second-turn charge with the Trygons. Four Hive Guard and two Zoanthropes should be sufficient for most non-flier armour I come across, with the Trygons and Tervigons as additional line-breakers if necessary. The Termagants screen and capture objectives, with spawned units working in coherency with the Tervigons.

The plan would generally be for the HQ, and thus Warlord Tervigon to stick in the back-field so that she is protected and spawn Termagants for my back-field objective holders. The Trygons advance on either flank, whilst the two scoring Tervigons move up the middle screened by the masses of Termagants. The Zoanthropes move up into good positions to lay down the punishment, whilst the Hive Guard find a good piece of line-of-sight blocking cover ASAP and bring the pain.

I am ultimately presenting a wealth of targets to my opponent, something I feel is very important with Tyranids - the Warlord Tervigon is a big target, especially in objective games where it can often come down to secondary objectives, however, she is well protected by her own broods and the rest of the advancing army. The other two Tervigons are obviously big threats as well, providing massive buffs for and spawning even more Termagants - all of them having poison means I don't need to rely on shooting or my own monstrous creatures to deal with tough enemies in combat. With Catalyst, I can make the Termagants or the other monstrous creatures very hard to kill, and being scoring makes them a huge target too. However, no-one wants two Trygons getting into their lines - having one on each flank is sure to draw insane amounts of firepower, even though the Tervigons are very much central to victory in 5/6 of the mission types. This makes it even better for the very dangerous Zoanthropes and Hive Guard to do what they do best - provide cheap and effective fire support to neutralize key targets, mostly transports and heavy vehicles.

This all sounds good in theory, but the killer is in the work itself - how it will actually function is obviously an unknown. But I like this army list, and think it will do well in general. What do you guys think?

Thanks for any and all input!

Tynskel

11-10-2012, 10:45 AM

3 tervigons is the point where you have bodies, but cannot dish out pain. You may want to scrounge up points for a flying monsterous creature

Learn2Eel

11-10-2012, 10:56 AM

I dunno, I think I dish out more pain than in the previous army lists when you consider the actual likelihood of units getting to do damage and not just based on potential damage, but that is up for debate. I never really expected the Tyranid Prime to get into combat anyway, so in that sense I think the extra Tervigon is well worth the price of admission. However, your point is very much valid. It mostly depends on the third one being the HQ choice, but IMO I think the third Tervigon is just the perfect HQ for the army list.

I've used flying monstrous creatures and I find that unless they are in pairs, they die like hot-cakes spread with butter. And unfortunately, Hive Tyrants with wings are just too expensive at 1500 points to take pairs. Whilst I know people definitely have success even with one, IMO even in my meta they are just too easily killed when taken alone. The problem also is getting units to work with them, and that would also require me to shell out more points for Gargoyles or Shrikes. I don't particularly like either unit (former - aesthetics/latter - cost) unfortunately. Of course though, if I come up against a flyer or flyer-heavy list, I will be in a spot of bother. However, the way I see it anyway is that flyers will outshoot any of my flying monstrous creatures and do it for much cheaper generally. And against AV12 flyers, a Hive Tyrant with dual brain-leech devourers still stands little chance of destroying it before it is killed in return.

Thanks for the input!

Also came up with a fun idea for an alternate army list, revolving around the Swarmlord;

Tyranids 1500
HQ
The Swarmlord w/ two tyrant guard - 400

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (20) - 100
Termagants (20) - 100

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210

1500

So to gain the Swarmlord and the two Tyrant Guard I lose a Tervigon, I lose 20 Termagants, and I lose a Trygon. Effectively, I lose one combat monster unit for one that is even more deadly and survivable as well as actually providing buffs for my army and losing a Tervigon. This would be the more fun list of the two, as I would like to use the Swarmlord at some point, even if using him in 1500 point games doesn't work too well. The Swarmlord is just such an awesome model that my first Hive Tyrant kit would probably result in his creation.

With the Tyrant Guard, are lash-whips better or boneswords? Or should I just keep them basic to have 100 points to spend elsewhere? Considering they already have Rending and are S5, I don't think the Boneswords are as necessary as they would be on, for example, a Tyranid Prime. Having the Lash Whips doesn't really help against most targets I would fight against in regards to the I6 killer in the Swarm-star, but it helps against high initiative units such as Grey Knights with halberds or even to reduce the amount of wounds my Tyrant Guard might take in return. However, the Boneswords would of course make them exceedingly nasty in combat as well, meaning they can mulch through Terminators and Tactical Marines alike. I would just have to find the points somewhere to get them.

Ninja'd. 400 points is excessive enough in one unit, even if that unit is guaranteed to get into combat on turn 2-3 in my meta without dying and proceeding to kill everything it touches. 500 points is just far too much. With the spare 100 points, I am looking at either two extra Hive Guard or the extra 20 Termagants as before. I'm thinking, as before, four Hive Guard and two Zoanthropes should be enough in general, and the extra 20 Termagants would be better in general to either bulk up the starting squads or to have four units of them on the field before spawning starts.

Learn2Eel

11-21-2012, 04:31 AM

Hmm actually thinking of a few changes to the list.
Just a thought; what do you guys think of the following two options;

a) Adrenal Glands on the Tervigons, or
b) Toxin Sacs on the Trygons

Methinks adrenal glands would be much more useful for the Tervigons as it grants the Termagants Furious Charge, allowing them to glance transports to death and also to get re-rolls to wound against T4 on the charge.
The Toxin Sacs basically just maximize the already significant killing power of the Trygons, I actually think they aren't necessary.

Just an FYI, I understand I'm probably missing the point with Tyranids haha :D I'm basically just going off what I like model and rules wise, not what I think is best.

I also came up with this, following on from Tynskel's suggestion;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brainleech devourers - 260 (if Zoanthropes are taken, this guy also gets toxin sacs)

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130
OR
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210

And to edit the triple Tervigon list to add in Adrenal Glands;

HQ
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (19) - 95
Termagants (20) - 100

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200

Also made an alternative Swarmlord list;

HQ
The Swarmlord w/ two tyrant guard w/ lash whips - 410

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, adrenal glands, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200

Anakzar

11-21-2012, 11:54 AM

Anggul

11-23-2012, 04:23 AM

While Cluster Spines seem more appealing at first, many have slowly decided that they're probably a bit better off with Stinger Salvo. Due to the nature of Tyranids and the fairly short range of the Spines, there's often too much of a risk of hitting your own models. Also, Stinger Salvo can snap-shot, so you can fire it on Overwatch/at Flyers (if you have nothing better to fire them at), two things which the Cluster Spines miss out on.

An amusing little trick is to only take one Tyrant Guard with the Swarmlord. This way when you cast Iron Arm, the unit's majority Toughness is 7-9, rather than 6. It's much better for the points to have one T7-9 Tyrant Guard rather than 2 T6 ones which also reduce the Swarmlord to T6.

I would generally take Zoanthropes in a brood of 3 if you're using their codex powers. If you're rolling on the rulebook disciplines instead then 2 is fine, but you probably want 3 to reliable down vehicles with Warp Lance if that's what you're taking them for.

Tynskel

11-24-2012, 10:40 AM

As much as I find the most recent lists entertaining, I get this feeling that the lists are missing something. I think it has to do with the Trygons. They can run off and do their thing, but by themselves. It might be worth while to get a Gargoyle/Shrike/Ravener brood for support with the Trygons.

The big thing about bugs is that you want to keep moving, and you want to hit like a ton of bricks. Synergy is your advantage. Then a trygon with a bunch of gargoyles slams into something, your opponents cry–especially if the swarmlord grants preferred enemy, or you get catalyst from a tervigon. Hammer of Wrath, even at str 3, is great for reducing your opponent's numbers, and the blinding venom is fantastic. That's 3 attacks each + a gun. Both units also get to re-roll charges.

Ghoulio

11-24-2012, 07:19 PM

Kind of sad to see your list just turn into every single Tyranid list you see. Nothing but Trygons, min sized Termagant squads to get Tervigons, Hive Guards and a Tyrant of some sort. I in no way mean this as a slight against you, it's just more a comment on the book itself. The main down side of this list is EVERYONE knows what you are bringing and how to handle you before you even put your models down on the table. You should try varying things up a bit instead of just focusing on 5 of the 32 units in the book.

Why not go for some Ymgarls? They are still one of the best units in the book and one of only two units that can still assault out of reserves. Another great thing about them is their altered state happens at the START of the assault phase, so you can take the T5 to help mitigate some overwatch wounds. Another unit to try is a unit of 3 Zoans in a pod with the telepathy powers which turns them into a great devastator squad destoryer if you take the Primaris Power. Now you have 3 shots, each one forcing a LD test on 3d6 with no armor or cover saves. Combine that with Doom (who you trade that power out for as well) and now you force FIVE ld test on 3d6 lol. Harpies are also decent as they can fly over a unit, drop d3 spore mines, vector strike another unit then shoot a 3 unit.

All I am saying is there is a lot more to the book other then Tervigons, Hive Guard, Termagants and Trygons and just because they are the most cost efficient units in the book doesn't mean taking ONLY them wins games. Throwing your opponent off with some other units that get in their face messes with Target Priority and puts you back into control on how the game is being dictated. Just some things to consider :)

Tynskel

11-24-2012, 07:42 PM

Yes. I completely agree with this.

Tyranids have always worked well when you take a variety of units. One just has to think about how they work together.
Here's one of my favorite combinations:

Defiler Tyrant
–Lash Whips and Bonesword, Devourers, Thorax Shredder Beetles, Old Adversary, Hive Commander, Toxin and Adrenal Sacs. Psychic Powers: Leech Essence and Psychic Scream.
Tyrant Guard
–3 with Lash Whips
Sky Slasher Swarms
–X bases, Adrenal and Toxin Sacs

The swarms act as a screen for the Tyrant, and they charge targets together. Everyone benefits from re-rolls due to preferred enemy (old adversary). Both of these units are under used in this fashion, but they can dish out some serious pain, especially since people are starting to use their boxes–err–transports less.

If you don't exchange your powers, Psychic Scream is a power that is under used and packs a serious punch: all enemy units within 2D6" take a Ld test at 3D6 and take a number of wounds with no save equal to the amount they lost by in the test. I have seen many powerful units get murdered by this power. Especially combined with the Brainleech Devourers and Rending Template weapon.

If you are looking to shave points, you can do away with the upgrade sacs. Preferred Enemy allows re-rolls of 1's on both to hit and wound for both close combat and shooting (makes the Rending Shredders even better).

Learn2Eel

11-24-2012, 10:42 PM

Bone swords are indeed worth it for the tyrant guard if going againts a lot of 3+ and2+ armor.

The tyranid prime can do very well in CC. I like to run one with lashwhip/bone sword and death spitter in a brood of warriors for the extra BS/WS or sometimes in a big brood of termagants with devourers. People here like to shoot my synapse first and if I can make a synapse creature more survivable all the better.

The Swarmlord gets 4 powers and can use two per turn, rolling on biomancy 4 times almost garantees Iron arm and Warpspeed...

Hmm I do tend to agree, the only reason I didn't put them on the Tyrant Guard was because I didn't want to shave points off elsewhere. But there is no doubt that it turns each one into a very nasty MEQ or TEQ hunter. 4 attacks each on the charge at WS5 and S5, re-rolling failed to hit-rolls of 1 and paired with Preferred Enemy re-rolling failed to-wound rolls of 1 ignoring armour is very nasty. That's something like 6 hits and 5 wounds on average ignoring armour, enough to nearly wipe out a standard Terminator squad, and that is before factoring in the Swarmlord! Nasty.

While Cluster Spines seem more appealing at first, many have slowly decided that they're probably a bit better off with Stinger Salvo. Due to the nature of Tyranids and the fairly short range of the Spines, there's often too much of a risk of hitting your own models. Also, Stinger Salvo can snap-shot, so you can fire it on Overwatch/at Flyers (if you have nothing better to fire them at), two things which the Cluster Spines miss out on.

An amusing little trick is to only take one Tyrant Guard with the Swarmlord. This way when you cast Iron Arm, the unit's majority Toughness is 7-9, rather than 6. It's much better for the points to have one T7-9 Tyrant Guard rather than 2 T6 ones which also reduce the Swarmlord to T6.

I would generally take Zoanthropes in a brood of 3 if you're using their codex powers. If you're rolling on the rulebook disciplines instead then 2 is fine, but you probably want 3 to reliable down vehicles with Warp Lance if that's what you're taking them for.

The range depends on what is front of the Tervigon and what it is shooting at, whilst the risk is certainly there it mostly depends on the placement of units. Even then, I wouldn't really factor in shooting it all too much - especially with Catalyst being a witchfire power. In reality, I just don't buy into a 4 shot S5 AP4 weapon that hits on 4s. The large blast can scatter but it will more than likely get more hits and kills against lightly armoured units, and will do better against MEQs anyway. In reality, I don't find Overwatch that big a reason to take it considering it is only S5 and Assault 4 - you have slim-to-none chances of damaging any flyer really, let alone vehicles.

That is a very good idea, I think I will actually do that come to think of it. The only time it would be worse would be against Dark Eldar, but really, I rarely see them nowadays. The problem is that if I don't get Iron Arm (as unlikely as it is) then I've essentially left myself two wounds short.

I find that two tend to do the job, but a third certainly couldn't hurt.

As much as I find the most recent lists entertaining, I get this feeling that the lists are missing something. I think it has to do with the Trygons. They can run off and do their thing, but by themselves. It might be worth while to get a Gargoyle/Shrike/Ravener brood for support with the Trygons.

The big thing about bugs is that you want to keep moving, and you want to hit like a ton of bricks. Synergy is your advantage. Then a trygon with a bunch of gargoyles slams into something, your opponents cry–especially if the swarmlord grants preferred enemy, or you get catalyst from a tervigon. Hammer of Wrath, even at str 3, is great for reducing your opponent's numbers, and the blinding venom is fantastic. That's 3 attacks each + a gun. Both units also get to re-roll charges.

The problem is finding the points for those other units usually, though I could certainly shave off stuff here and there to fit them in. Gargoyles or Raveners would keep the visual theme consistent with other elements of the army. That and both, particularly the former, are pretty useful.

Kind of sad to see your list just turn into every single Tyranid list you see. Nothing but Trygons, min sized Termagant squads to get Tervigons, Hive Guards and a Tyrant of some sort. I in no way mean this as a slight against you, it's just more a comment on the book itself. The main down side of this list is EVERYONE knows what you are bringing and how to handle you before you even put your models down on the table. You should try varying things up a bit instead of just focusing on 5 of the 32 units in the book.

Why not go for some Ymgarls? They are still one of the best units in the book and one of only two units that can still assault out of reserves. Another great thing about them is their altered state happens at the START of the assault phase, so you can take the T5 to help mitigate some overwatch wounds. Another unit to try is a unit of 3 Zoans in a pod with the telepathy powers which turns them into a great devastator squad destoryer if you take the Primaris Power. Now you have 3 shots, each one forcing a LD test on 3d6 with no armor or cover saves. Combine that with Doom (who you trade that power out for as well) and now you force FIVE ld test on 3d6 lol. Harpies are also decent as they can fly over a unit, drop d3 spore mines, vector strike another unit then shoot a 3 unit.

All I am saying is there is a lot more to the book other then Tervigons, Hive Guard, Termagants and Trygons and just because they are the most cost efficient units in the book doesn't mean taking ONLY them wins games. Throwing your opponent off with some other units that get in their face messes with Target Priority and puts you back into control on how the game is being dictated. Just some things to consider :)

No offense taken good sir! Basically I'm looking at getting a semi-competitive core for an army so that I can quickly get into the army without losing out too much at first, then going from there and expanding on all the different options the codex presents. For example, I do like the look of Venomthropes and Ymgarls, but I always tend to find I need the anti-tank firepower of the Hive Guard and Zoanthropes more. However, not every army I play requires the touch of Zoanthropes. Being perfectly honest, very few play Tyranids in my local area (which is sad). I watch lots of games of them and read many battle reports, but I rarely get to face them. In that sense, also basing off what my opponents play, the army I have above actually would be a surprise for my opponents at first - none of them really play against Tyranids :(. Of course, as they work out and react to my army, that is when I start adapting them and moving on to other elements.

I really like Ymgarls, they are a very serious threat for any opponent, that and being able to charge when they arrive from reserves is very nasty. However, they aren't an easy unit to use - picking which piece of terrain alone can be a difficult decision, as you have to weigh up the risks of whether your opponent will inhabit it, whether it is worth charging from there, etc. I just find that Hive Guard and Zoanthropes would be the more useful and reliable unit for the army I'm going for, but I certainly wouldn't mind chucking in a unit of them. It would require a bit of a list re-design though as Ymgarls work better in an army with more reserves. My problem with that Zoanthrope build is that they are really paying for the one thing and losing their ability to threaten vehicles - an expensive unit, though mind you I'm talking from where I play, where small game-boards are the norm and hence mycetic spores are unnecessary. That's mostly my issue though - if I'm taking Zoanthropes, it is for their utility but also mostly for their Warp Lance.

I really like Harpies, the two issues that deter me from using them are; a) the model (or lack thereof), and; b) what to equip them with. I don't see Harpies as a flier defence, as S5 on the Stinger Salvo and Vector Strike simply wouldn't do as much as I would hope against most fliers. They can take a heavy venom cannon which gives you a tasty S9 blast, but the rest of their gear kind of seems to defeat the purpose of hunting vehicles (except for Smash obviously). My favoured build would be a focus on anti-infantry - as you say, they can dish out the pain. They are also a very big threat for any opponent, particularly backfield units such as Devastators or Predators. They can, in a pinch, charge into smaller units and rip them apart or at least draw fire away from the rest of your army. However, the anti-tank build seems to be popular so I am not really sure there.

Oh I know that for sure, the problem is whenever I try to include other elements I always struggle with how to properly implement them - i.e. the Raveners, Harpies, Gargoyles and what not. The help from you guys is thus very much appreciated :)

Yes. I completely agree with this.

Tyranids have always worked well when you take a variety of units. One just has to think about how they work together.
Here's one of my favorite combinations:

Defiler Tyrant
–Lash Whips and Bonesword, Devourers, Thorax Shredder Beetles, Old Adversary, Hive Commander, Toxin and Adrenal Sacs. Psychic Powers: Leech Essence and Psychic Scream.
Tyrant Guard
–3 with Lash Whips
Sky Slasher Swarms
–X bases, Adrenal and Toxin Sacs

The swarms act as a screen for the Tyrant, and they charge targets together. Everyone benefits from re-rolls due to preferred enemy (old adversary). Both of these units are under used in this fashion, but they can dish out some serious pain, especially since people are starting to use their boxes–err–transports less.

If you don't exchange your powers, Psychic Scream is a power that is under used and packs a serious punch: all enemy units within 2D6" take a Ld test at 3D6 and take a number of wounds with no save equal to the amount they lost by in the test. I have seen many powerful units get murdered by this power. Especially combined with the Brainleech Devourers and Rending Template weapon.

If you are looking to shave points, you can do away with the upgrade sacs. Preferred Enemy allows re-rolls of 1's on both to hit and wound for both close combat and shooting (makes the Rending Shredders even better).

That looks nasty, but I feel the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard would be soaking up a lot of points. Also, as much as they may fit into a build, no-one can ever convince me to take Rippers or Sky-Slashers lol.
Just a clarification, Psychic Scream for Hive Tyrants does not force a Leadership test on 3D6 - it is just a normal leadership test. Hence why it usually won't do much against high-leadership armies.

That is true. I've never actually looked at using a Thorax Swarm before, however looking at them again they do look interesting. However, whilst the Rending one is nice, you are still relying too much on 6s - you wound MEQs on 5s as it is. IMO the one that sticks out to me is the one that wounds non-vehicle units on a 2+ - it might be AP- but it will force ungodly amounts of saves of units, especially when combined with Preferred Enemy. In an MEQ-dominated environment, that one would be more useful for me. It would also be lolsy against horde armies haha. However, there's no denying the value of the rending one - it can actually be a threat against vehicles.

Thanks all for your input!

Learn2Eel

11-24-2012, 10:59 PM

This took me a minute or two to write up after looking at the codex, and obviously it looks quite a different army list. This is basically my first attempt at using this kind of army for Tyranids, so go crazy with what I should and shouldn't change.

Tyranids 1500
HQ
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, toxin sacs, catalyst - 185

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Ymgarl Genestealers (8) - 184

Troops
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, toxin sacs, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, toxin sacs, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Gargoyles (20) w/ toxin sacs - 140

The HQ Tervigon is only there because I had 186 points left after putting everything else down and realized I couldn't fit a Hive Tyrant in.

Ghoulio

11-25-2012, 10:06 AM

No offense taken good sir! Basically I'm looking at getting a semi-competitive core for an army so that I can quickly get into the army without losing out too much at first, then going from there and expanding on all the different options the codex presents. For example, I do like the look of Venomthropes and Ymgarls, but I always tend to find I need the anti-tank firepower of the Hive Guard and Zoanthropes more. However, not every army I play requires the touch of Zoanthropes. Being perfectly honest, very few play Tyranids in my local area (which is sad). I watch lots of games of them and read many battle reports, but I rarely get to face them. In that sense, also basing off what my opponents play, the army I have above actually would be a surprise for my opponents at first - none of them really play against Tyranids :(. Of course, as they work out and react to my army, that is when I start adapting them and moving on to other elements.

I really like Ymgarls, they are a very serious threat for any opponent, that and being able to charge when they arrive from reserves is very nasty. However, they aren't an easy unit to use - picking which piece of terrain alone can be a difficult decision, as you have to weigh up the risks of whether your opponent will inhabit it, whether it is worth charging from there, etc. I just find that Hive Guard and Zoanthropes would be the more useful and reliable unit for the army I'm going for, but I certainly wouldn't mind chucking in a unit of them. It would require a bit of a list re-design though as Ymgarls work better in an army with more reserves. My problem with that Zoanthrope build is that they are really paying for the one thing and losing their ability to threaten vehicles - an expensive unit, though mind you I'm talking from where I play, where small game-boards are the norm and hence mycetic spores are unnecessary. That's mostly my issue though - if I'm taking Zoanthropes, it is for their utility but also mostly for their Warp Lance.

I really like Harpies, the two issues that deter me from using them are; a) the model (or lack thereof), and; b) what to equip them with. I don't see Harpies as a flier defence, as S5 on the Stinger Salvo and Vector Strike simply wouldn't do as much as I would hope against most fliers. They can take a heavy venom cannon which gives you a tasty S9 blast, but the rest of their gear kind of seems to defeat the purpose of hunting vehicles (except for Smash obviously). My favoured build would be a focus on anti-infantry - as you say, they can dish out the pain. They are also a very big threat for any opponent, particularly backfield units such as Devastators or Predators. They can, in a pinch, charge into smaller units and rip them apart or at least draw fire away from the rest of your army. However, the anti-tank build seems to be popular so I am not really sure there.

Oh I know that for sure, the problem is whenever I try to include other elements I always struggle with how to properly implement them - i.e. the Raveners, Harpies, Gargoyles and what not. The help from you guys is thus very much appreciated :)

Using a bunch of the lesser seen units can be a bit of a challenge to get the hang of due to how poorly written the rules for most of them are. You mentioned about not knowing how to equip the Harpy so I figured I would give you some pointers on it and how to approach any of the units in this book.

Basically, the Tyranid book is different from virtually all the other books out there. Most books the choices you make are based on "What Fits My Playstyle". Tyranids though is all about avoiding the massive pitfalls of wasted points. Things that are just SO EXPENSIVE and situational that you will literally never use them. What that means being very focused on how you build your units.

Worthwhile Upgrades for MCs:
Toxin Sacs...and that's it. Adrenal Glands make you str 7 on the charge...which is meaningless since you can smash now. Regen is beyond worthless for its points. You might get ONE game where it will help, but only working on a 6 is just garbage and its crazy expensive.

The biggest point sink in the book is the Hive Tyrant. Here are literally the ONLY upgrades I would take for it:
- Toxin Sacs
- Armored Shell
- Wings
- Hive Commander (only if you are doing reserve lists)
Thats it. Literally everything else they can take is worthless and horrendously overpriced. Old Adversary MIGHT be worthwhile if you plan on using it in conjunction with devourer gaunts otherwise dont bother. With Scything Talons and Toxin Sacs (so re-rolling hits and wounds) Preferred Enemy is worthless.

Cluster Spines or Stinger Salvo. This is a non issue. Cluster Spines. Always.

Harpy - For me the only way to go is keeping him focused, deadly and cheapest he can be. So Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines. So, now he can fly over a unit, drop d3 large blasts, then pick a second unit (360 degree arc of fire) and blast them with two more large, higher strength templates. Good stuff

The Rest: With the big buff to Poison attacks and the big nerf (for us) for Furious Charge the only option anymore is just Toxin Sacs.

Biggest thing with Tyranids is to find out what a unit is used for and just 100% focusing on that. You then build your army up using these specialized units together to take down the enemy. So only CC options only for Raveners, or mass anti infantry for the Harpy since everything other then the horrendous Venom Cannon points you in the direction, etc. Best advice anyone can give with this army though is to really just try stuff out for yourself and practice with units you think are cool. I always loved the Ymgarls and it took me about 10 games to get good with them. Once I got the hang of them they have just turned into game winning assassins. The last tournament I took them to they racked up 22 Kill Points (5th ed) in 5 games. Good stuff.

Tynskel

11-25-2012, 12:04 PM

Ghoulio

11-25-2012, 01:26 PM

Ah you are right about the Psychic Scream. I still find it very useful, considering it can hit many units.

I only take the Shredder Beetles because of the rending. Rending Templates are scary: no cover save because of the template, and no armor save because of the rend. It is for the wounds that you get that 'count'. A real problem of Tyranid weapons is the lack of AP.

If you have a foot Tyrant, I would go for Old Adversary. 6" bubble of Preferred Enemy is really good. Think about re-rolling to hit/wound Warriors with Death Spitters and Boneswords, etc. It isn't an upgrade for the Tyrant, it is an upgrade for the Army.

So a 25pts flamer with rending (so you need to hit 6 models just to cause one rend) on a walking tyrant is a good upgrade? Sorry I dont mean to be rude but I 100% just dont see it. Why is it 25pts? A Tzeentch Flamer (the demon) is 22pts for the entire model that is a jumper trooper (12" move which doubles the effectiveness of the flamer) and has a flamer that always wounds on a 4+ and ignores armor always. If those flamer upgrades were say 5-10pts AND you could take it with Wings it might be useful.

As for Old Adversary in regards to the Warriors you would have to make sure they are always within 6" of your Tyrant, and then you get 30 shots, which is 5 "1s" which means 2 1/2 extra hits (so 17 hits) which would result in 2 extra wounds against Space Marines. So instead of doing (on average) of 10 wounds you now do 12 wounds. Doesnt seem like much of a buff to me. And for Close Combat it makes less sense since scything talons re-rolls dice rolls of 1 and toxin sacs lets you re-roll all failed wounds. So it literally has no use in close combat.

All I am trying to do is point out how with the new rules a lot of the Tyranid abilities just arent useful anymore. All our abilities are just full of redundancies with the 6th ed rules. Many of the older upgrades you would take there is literally no use for them and the only 2 major buffs come in the form of Toxin Sacs and Wings. So i stand by what I said. Wings and Toxin Sacs and you are golden :)

Anggul

11-25-2012, 03:37 PM

Old Adversary is definitely worth it, and is taken by many players because of this. As Tynskel mentioned in his comments on Trygons, Tyranids are best when a few units hit at once. This means you'll quite often have a couple of broods within 6" of the Tyrant when it counts, and it also means the Hive Tyrant itself re-rolls most failed hits and wounds due to high WS and Strength.

In general response to what is being said here: Sadly, yes, there are only a few units worth taking. It's a bad codex, but we make the best we can with it. Almost all of the units are either really good or really bad. You do see varied lists, but it's true that most people default to a couple of Termagant broods, the Tervigons to go with them, Hive Guard and Flyrant. This is because in 40k you need Troops to capture, anti-flyer and anti-tank. These fit these roles perfectly and only have about one alternative each. For example I've seen armies based upon lots of big broods of Hormagaunts do well, and Dakkafexes do pretty well against flyers. Zoanthropes obviously perform a less reliable but more powerful anti-tank role than Hive Guard, and have the advantage of being massively flexible due to the rulebook disciplines. I use both, but many just use Hive Guard.

Basically you can make varied lists, but not massively varied without them just not working. So many things (Lictors, Pyrovores, Mawlocs, Tyrannofexes, Rippers and the now very sadly nerfed Genestealers and Venomthropes) are just bad and don't do what they're meant to either due to bad rules or points costs.

Tynskel

11-25-2012, 04:45 PM

Anggul

11-25-2012, 05:40 PM

Lictors and Pyrovores, yeah they are meh. Mawlocs are fine. They work really well if you manage to surround your opponents (remember, units are destroyed if they cannot get out of the way). Tyrannofexes are really nasty now, because of the 2+ armor. You just got to get them up close.

Rippers, well, they were always a trashcan unit, but are very useful. They take serious firepower dedication to kill, and they can provide cover for anything now. Oh, and they are cheap as stink. Not to mention, they benefit disproportionately from unit buffs as compared to other bugs.

Feel No Pain is nice on them.
Preferred Enemy makes them a serious opponent.

All outflankers were nerfed, so Genestealers are on par with everything else. They still rock, and the Broodlord is more insane that it was before. Not to mention, Fleet for both Ymgarls and Genestealers makes them a very serious threat.

The Parasite is still one of the best 'assassin' units in the game. You rend, they will die, unless they have Eternal Warrior. Same with Broodlords. Always purchase Implant Attack if you have rending! Instant Death at AP2!

Yeah, Broodlords are better now but the thing normal Genestealers are good for now are a Broodlord delivery system. As you say, all Outflanking units got nerfed, but it does render Genestealers particularly weak as they'll just get shot to pieces unless there's a convenient amount of terrain right near the table edge, whereas Kroot, for example, can put out some pretty decent firepower when they Outflank. Ymgarl Genestealers on the other hand are immense.

Tyrannofexes are just too expensive for what they do. If they were cheaper I would use them, but as it is they're just extortionately expensive when you can get so much more for the cost.

I suppose Mawlocs can work if you dedicate some stuff to them, I imagine they make a very tasty alpha strike if you bring 2 or 3 of them in at once with a Hive Commander Tyrant/Swarmlord. You could effectively eat a large chunk of the opponent's army all at once. They're certainly not something I would every take one of though. They're kind of like Eldar Fire Prisms in that respect.

Tynskel

11-25-2012, 09:14 PM

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 03:58 AM

Using a bunch of the lesser seen units can be a bit of a challenge to get the hang of due to how poorly written the rules for most of them are. You mentioned about not knowing how to equip the Harpy so I figured I would give you some pointers on it and how to approach any of the units in this book.

Basically, the Tyranid book is different from virtually all the other books out there. Most books the choices you make are based on "What Fits My Playstyle". Tyranids though is all about avoiding the massive pitfalls of wasted points. Things that are just SO EXPENSIVE and situational that you will literally never use them. What that means being very focused on how you build your units.

Worthwhile Upgrades for MCs:
Toxin Sacs...and that's it. Adrenal Glands make you str 7 on the charge...which is meaningless since you can smash now. Regen is beyond worthless for its points. You might get ONE game where it will help, but only working on a 6 is just garbage and its crazy expensive.

The biggest point sink in the book is the Hive Tyrant. Here are literally the ONLY upgrades I would take for it:
- Toxin Sacs
- Armored Shell
- Wings
- Hive Commander (only if you are doing reserve lists)
Thats it. Literally everything else they can take is worthless and horrendously overpriced. Old Adversary MIGHT be worthwhile if you plan on using it in conjunction with devourer gaunts otherwise dont bother. With Scything Talons and Toxin Sacs (so re-rolling hits and wounds) Preferred Enemy is worthless.

Cluster Spines or Stinger Salvo. This is a non issue. Cluster Spines. Always.

Harpy - For me the only way to go is keeping him focused, deadly and cheapest he can be. So Stranglethorn Cannon, Cluster Spines. So, now he can fly over a unit, drop d3 large blasts, then pick a second unit (360 degree arc of fire) and blast them with two more large, higher strength templates. Good stuff

The Rest: With the big buff to Poison attacks and the big nerf (for us) for Furious Charge the only option anymore is just Toxin Sacs.

Biggest thing with Tyranids is to find out what a unit is used for and just 100% focusing on that. You then build your army up using these specialized units together to take down the enemy. So only CC options only for Raveners, or mass anti infantry for the Harpy since everything other then the horrendous Venom Cannon points you in the direction, etc. Best advice anyone can give with this army though is to really just try stuff out for yourself and practice with units you think are cool. I always loved the Ymgarls and it took me about 10 games to get good with them. Once I got the hang of them they have just turned into game winning assassins. The last tournament I took them to they racked up 22 Kill Points (5th ed) in 5 games. Good stuff.

I tend to agree with your summary on upgrades to give monstrous creatures. Particularly for ones like Trygons and Harpies, the other upgrades simply aren't necessary.

The Hive Tyrant is expensive but IMO it is pretty awesome, as you say you just have to be careful with what upgrades you give it. Personally, if I wanted a foot Tyrant I would typically just go for the Swarmlord - however there's no doubt a foot Tyrant still works depending on what you give it. I wouldn't bother with a dakka Tyrant where I am. As for a flying Tyrant, I tend to be very divided - I prefer to run things in pairs, except for a unit that works as a good 'odd one out' option. Unless I am also running a Harpy, I just can't run a single flying Hive Tyrant. I also know a common loadout is to give them the two brainleech devourers - with skyfire, you provide a pretty decent threat to light fliers. However, I still think the Tyrant will get shot down by a flyer anyway and will probably do too little in return to justify the cost. Taking just toxin sacs and wings, as well as the pair of scything talons makes it a horrendous assault unit that your opponent has to kill very quickly. Priced well for what it does IMO.

I agree, Cluster Spines just always seem the better deal to me, especially given the average BS of models that can use it. I really don't buy into things being bought because they can snap-fire or Overwatch with only four shots - template weapons are really the only exception. 6s are not my forte.

That is what I would do too, even against MEQs (my common opponents) the anti-infantry shooting of the Harpy is really nothing to be sneezed at, it can and will force a lot of saves whilst picking guys off with Vector Strikes.

Old Adversary is definitely worth it, and is taken by many players because of this. As Tynskel mentioned in his comments on Trygons, Tyranids are best when a few units hit at once. This means you'll quite often have a couple of broods within 6" of the Tyrant when it counts, and it also means the Hive Tyrant itself re-rolls most failed hits and wounds due to high WS and Strength.

In general response to what is being said here: Sadly, yes, there are only a few units worth taking. It's a bad codex, but we make the best we can with it. Almost all of the units are either really good or really bad. You do see varied lists, but it's true that most people default to a couple of Termagant broods, the Tervigons to go with them, Hive Guard and Flyrant. This is because in 40k you need Troops to capture, anti-flyer and anti-tank. These fit these roles perfectly and only have about one alternative each. For example I've seen armies based upon lots of big broods of Hormagaunts do well, and Dakkafexes do pretty well against flyers. Zoanthropes obviously perform a less reliable but more powerful anti-tank role than Hive Guard, and have the advantage of being massively flexible due to the rulebook disciplines. I use both, but many just use Hive Guard.

Basically you can make varied lists, but not massively varied without them just not working. So many things (Lictors, Pyrovores, Mawlocs, Tyrannofexes, Rippers and the now very sadly nerfed Genestealers and Venomthropes) are just bad and don't do what they're meant to either due to bad rules or points costs.

I do agree, but IMO I probably wouldn't get it - the usual Hive Tyrant I would run would be a flying one, and hence the Preferred Enemy upgrade won't be very useful. I definitely see the uses of it though.

Well, I lived through the old Chaos codex, and I certainly don't mind playing with the Tyranids. The reality is that I am mostly out for fun. In any case, there are elements to Tyranids which I think are highly competitive - the problem is that it means your lists tend to consist of only a few types of units, and hence it is easy for opponents to adapt to your army list.

I prefer Zoanthropes visually to Hive Guard, however I think one unit is just fine. Zoanthropes are awesome simply because of their versatility - an exceedingly nasty short-range tank hunter, a very nasty MEQ killer, and even a support psyker with rulebook powers. Even one unit of them can fulfill a very different role in each game on the fly. On the other hand, Hive Guard are solely used for anti-tank - although they are funny against other mutli-wound models with T4 or lower.

Lictors and Pyrovores, yeah they are meh. Mawlocs are fine. They work really well if you manage to surround your opponents (remember, units are destroyed if they cannot get out of the way). Tyrannofexes are really nasty now, because of the 2+ armor. You just got to get them up close.

Rippers, well, they were always a trashcan unit, but are very useful. They take serious firepower dedication to kill, and they can provide cover for anything now. Oh, and they are cheap as stink. Not to mention, they benefit disproportionately from unit buffs as compared to other bugs.

Feel No Pain is nice on them.
Preferred Enemy makes them a serious opponent.

All outflankers were nerfed, so Genestealers are on par with everything else. They still rock, and the Broodlord is more insane that it was before. Not to mention, Fleet for both Ymgarls and Genestealers makes them a very serious threat.

The Parasite is still one of the best 'assassin' units in the game. You rend, they will die, unless they have Eternal Warrior. Same with Broodlords. Always purchase Implant Attack if you have rending! Instant Death at AP2!

I like Lictors, their models and background are awesome. Sadly, yeah, they just aren't that good. However, I wouldn't mind trying out a brood of them one day just to see if I can make them work. I still don't buy into the Tyrannofex - I am simply not willing to pay that many points for a model that isn't going to kill much in a game. It will still get smacked silly by power fists. Sure, it is near impossible to kill but I just can't take it when I look at the much cheaper Trygon which has similar durability and much higher offensive capabilities.

Genestealers were hit very hard though. Striking Scorpions and the like at least are more durable. Genestealers really need to be Infiltrated. I still think they are a decent choice, they just aren't an auto-include unit anymore. Players just have to be much more thoughtful when using them.
I really don't buy into Implant Attack. Rending is hail-mary as it is - the chances of you surviving and getting to use it against something worthwhile are very, very slim. Paying 10 or more points for something like that just isn't worth it to me, for the same reason I wouldn't buy Rending for a single Bloodletter in a unit.

Yeah, Broodlords are better now but the thing normal Genestealers are good for now are a Broodlord delivery system. As you say, all Outflanking units got nerfed, but it does render Genestealers particularly weak as they'll just get shot to pieces unless there's a convenient amount of terrain right near the table edge, whereas Kroot, for example, can put out some pretty decent firepower when they Outflank. Ymgarl Genestealers on the other hand are immense.

Tyrannofexes are just too expensive for what they do. If they were cheaper I would use them, but as it is they're just extortionately expensive when you can get so much more for the cost.

I suppose Mawlocs can work if you dedicate some stuff to them, I imagine they make a very tasty alpha strike if you bring 2 or 3 of them in at once with a Hive Commander Tyrant/Swarmlord. You could effectively eat a large chunk of the opponent's army all at once. They're certainly not something I would every take one of though. They're kind of like Eldar Fire Prisms in that respect.

Agreed with basically all of the above. As good as the Mawloc attack is, it is still very random. The Trygon just seems to be a better investment for me, especially if I need targets for my opponent to be shooting at instead of my Tervigons.

You don't need Hive Commander to use Mawlocs.
Just use Burrow. They automatically deep strike the next turn. That is one of the Gems of Mawlocs.

Yes Tyrannofexes are expensive, but I don't think they are too expensive. The Rupture Cannon was improved immensely from the previous edition, and the acid spray+thorax swarm are nasty.

Genestealer tactics have changed: don't outflank. Infiltrate, and put them in hard cover. Go to ground with a 3+ cover save.

How has the Rupture Cannon improved exactly? I'm sorry, I don't understand this point.

That's a good tactic with the Genestealers. Just be careful not to get a Synapse creature into range of them on the first turn. It is nasty especially if your opponent is afraid of the Trygons, Raveners, Hormagaunts, Tervigons, Harpies, etc that are barreling towards them.

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 05:49 PM

Anggul

11-26-2012, 05:52 PM

You don't need Hive Commander to use Mawlocs.
Just use Burrow. They automatically deep strike the next turn. That is one of the Gems of Mawlocs.

Yes Tyrannofexes are expensive, but I don't think they are too expensive. The Rupture Cannon was improved immensely from the previous edition, and the acid spray+thorax swarm are nasty.
I forgot about that when writing that comment, good point. I'm tempted to write a list with 3 of them all burrowing in straight away just to see how much of a chunk it takes out of the enemy troops. They mostly likely won't make up their points, but that's not how Tyranids work anyway. If it disrupts them enough and kills off a lot of their troops, they'll have done well. As long as they don't scatter off wildly, I imagine it might be quite scary.

The Rupture Cannon went from sometimes okay-ish in 5th (just because it was our only long-range anti-tank) to pathetic in this 6th. You're maybe knocking off a Hull Point a turn, and that's assuming you always succeed at penetrating, which you probably won't. Without AP2 or 1 to let you blow them up with Penetrating Hits, it's just awful for what you pay, even with the long range. I certainly wouldn't pay 265pts for maybe 1 Hull Point a turn. The only way to run them now is Acid Spray, Cluster Spines, Dessicator Larvae, for mass templatey goodness!

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 06:08 PM

I disagree.
The Hull points has made it assured that you are doing effective damage to the opposing tank. I found the biggest problem with the Rupture cannon was it was too random (well, damaging tanks, in general, was random). Now, you know if you chip away, the tank will die.

It will do a hull point of damage to any tank at worst on a 4+ (armor 14). The fact that most transports that it will hit automatically take a hullpoint of damage is awesome.

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 07:22 PM

The rupture cannon improved by default: it's main problem was the 5th edition damage table, and with its high strength, it is all but guaranteed to do at least a hull point damage. That's a huge improvement from before.

I am not sure by what you mean by the synapse comment.
Genestealers don't need synapse creatures. You miss understand the Broodlord with implant attack. Because of the challenge system, you are more likely to use the implant attack. It causes instant death at the same time you rend. That's just awesome: roll that 6 with re-rolls to wound. You are Initiative 7. The only things out there that are faster usually have eternal warrior, or they will simply kill the broodlord outright.

I don't really know how the changes to the damage table improve the Rupture Cannon, before it could wreck vehicles on a 5+, now it can only destroy them on a 6+ (unless it shoots at open-topped vehicles). Though I do agree in regards to hull points.

What I meant was that any Tyranid, even Genestealers, becomes Fearless when in Synapse range. When you become Fearless, you automatically stand up from Pinning (unless I've read the rule incorrectly). Hence, if you get into synapse range of them in the first turn whilst doing that go to ground in hard cover trick, they will automatically stand up and thus become vulnerable.

That's my point though. How many multi-wound models will you honestly come up against that won't just smack the Broodlord silly anyway? I don't think it is bad by any means, but for the majority of things I would want to be in a challenge with, I wouldn't need the instant death attack. Mind you, it would be pretty good against a Space Marine Captain, provided you have some luck and you roll average for the Hypnotic Gaze (seriously, that power is ridiculous now).

I forgot about that when writing that comment, good point. I'm tempted to write a list with 3 of them all burrowing in straight away just to see how much of a chunk it takes out of the enemy troops. They mostly likely won't make up their points, but that's not how Tyranids work anyway. If it disrupts them enough and kills off a lot of their troops, they'll have done well. As long as they don't scatter off wildly, I imagine it might be quite scary.

The Rupture Cannon went from sometimes okay-ish in 5th (just because it was our only long-range anti-tank) to pathetic in this 6th. You're maybe knocking off a Hull Point a turn, and that's assuming you always succeed at penetrating, which you probably won't. Without AP2 or 1 to let you blow them up with Penetrating Hits, it's just awful for what you pay, even with the long range. I certainly wouldn't pay 265pts for maybe 1 Hull Point a turn. The only way to run them now is Acid Spray, Cluster Spines, Dessicator Larvae, for mass templatey goodness!

It would be scary, and it would play severe mind games with your opponent no doubt. That and Mawlocs are relatively cheap as far as monstrous creatures go, and still hilariously hard to kill. IMO though I prefer the Trygons for the better impact in combat, as well as actually staying on the field and thus soaking up firepower from my Tervigons, but that is just me.

That is unfortunately how I see it. The Rupture Cannon itself doesn't bother me, it is just the fact that the Tyrannofex is too pricey in general.

I disagree.
The Hull points has made it assured that you are doing effective damage to the opposing tank. I found the biggest problem with the Rupture cannon was it was too random (well, damaging tanks, in general, was random). Now, you know if you chip away, the tank will die.

It will do a hull point of damage to any tank at worst on a 4+ (armor 14). The fact that most transports that it will hit automatically take a hullpoint of damage is awesome.

The problem is, you only get 2 shots a turn, averaging only 1 hit. In a 5-turn game, that's only 5 hits. Pretty much every vehicle has 3 Hull Points. On average, it will take you three turns just to wreck a vehicle. Whilst the long range of the gun helps there, three turns is simply too long. That, and even with S10, you still need to penetrate the vehicle. Against a Predator, it will take you 4 to 5 turns, and by then, it will have already done its job. Against a Dreadnought, 4 turns, and again, it would have done damage by then.

And plus, if you are shooting a 265 point model at a transport that will be anywhere between 35-80 points and it takes you three turns to kill it, something is seriously up.

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 08:42 PM

You misunderstand the "Go to ground" rule. You can always go to ground (unless you are a monsterous creature). That's voluntary. Pinning is 'involuntary'.

I can do the maths on the rupture cannon. It isn't about the '1 shot, 1 kill'. The rupture cannon was not good enough for that. What it does better is the perpetual damage until destruction. The Rupture cannon is more more reliable a putting damage on a tank the will end up in its destruction. That's hands down better, because you don't want your squad 'damaging' the tank when they get into CC, you want them destroying the tank, and eating the insides.

One thing bugs are really good at is surrounding vehicles.

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 08:59 PM

Fearless units automatically pass Pinning tests and cannot Go to Ground, so I took that to mean they automatically stand up if they gain the Fearless special rule whilst they have gone to ground - hence a Genestealer unit can Go to Ground, but once a Synapse creature gets in range of them, they stand up. I'm not entirely sure though.

That still isn't enough for a 265 point monstrous creature. I could fit in five Hive Guard for that cost who will do much more for the points, especially against skimmers.

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 09:56 PM

alright, yes. That's right.
well, Genestealers don't need synapse, so you don't need to put some near them. Although, I say screw it, and if you have some nearby, fine. You know for 100% that they won't run away!

Yes, you could fit in 5 hive guard, but you are then sacrificing your precious Elites Slot for majority Hive Guard, of which you could have solid sneak attack (ymgarls), psykers (zoanthropes), DOOOOOM of Malatai, and more.

The Tyranid codex is all about synergies. We know that the Trygon/Tervigon/Hive Guard mix works well, however, there are plenty of combinations that work well, and if I am so bold, work better than the usual Spam.

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 10:21 PM

Oh no, I don't mean to get them into synapse range intentionally haha, I mean just be careful not to do that tactic you put up and then accidentally get them in synapse range as it would screw up the tactic.

It was just an example, really. But IMO for tank-hunting I would rely on Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, Tyrannofexes only really come into their own IMO on big tables and/or apocalypse games. There's a use for them, and they certainly aren't bad, but they just aren't what I need sadly.

Was just curious, have you ever tried out a Malanthrope? One of the army lists I would love to try is a Malan/Zoanthrope heavy army, mostly just for thematic purposes (psychic apocalypse!). Also to make my Eldar-hating friend laugh. I look at the Malanthrope (the current rules are in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse Second Edition) and I think it looks like a bargain for what it does. Only 30 popsickles more than a Tyranid Prime, the differences are WS3, BS3, W4, A3, you are a monstrous creature, you also come with toxin sacs, toxic miasma, regeneration, etc. It also has Fleet and, by being a monstrous creature, AP2 attacks, Smash, Hammer of Wrath, Move Through Cover, and so on. It can also be taken in broods! Sounds like a great deal to me, it isn't an independent character but it seems pretty nasty. Also, if it kills an infantry or jump infantry unit, it and any Tyranid within its synapse range gets Preferred Enemy of that type.

Would be a fun alternative to a third Tervigon, and this thing would actually benefit more from a horde list than anything else.

Came up with a quick example list of using them;

Tyranids 1500
HQ
Malanthrope - 110
Malanthrope - 110

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, toxin sacs - 170
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, toxin sacs - 170
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200

To save myself money (assuming I carry models over between different army lists of course), I dropped Catalyst on both Tervigons to fit a Trygon in over a Mawloc - the Tervigons instead roll on Biomancy and see what power they get.

And for that afore-mentioned FUN! psychic apocalypse -

Tyranids 1500
HQ
Malanthrope - 110
Malanthrope - 110

Elites
Zoanthropes (3) - 180
Zoanthropes (3) - 180
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 10:33 PM

Yes, the Malanthrope is awesome. I have wanted a Malanthrope + Venomthrope army and then anything that can take Miasma upgrade to do so. Farts-a-lot army!

I wish the old Mycetic Spore rules existed, because the new ones don't make sense. They are supposed to be Tyranid Anti-Air units that suicide on Flyers. That's what they say they do in my Imperial Armour 4 book!

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 10:44 PM

Come to think of it, the main list I was wanting to do before, the triple Tervigon list, gets improved a lot by doing this;

HQ
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200

Compared to that army list, I lose a Trygon, the remaining Trygon loses Toxin Sacs, and I lose 20 Termagants (which I didn't need anyway) and gain two Harpies. :cool:

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 10:47 PM

I like the first of the three.
It is monsterous creature heavy, but I like the sound of it.
I fell like dropping one tervigon for a whopping sized Hormogaunt squad would make that list really fun.

Maybe drop the second Malanthrope for Gargoyles for fly around death.

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 10:50 PM

Really seeing the value of Harpies now. Except against other fliers and units with Skyfire (which aren't very common), they are more durable than the Trygon and can do a huge amount of damage in shooting, even against Space Marines. They can also feasibly charge isolated back-field units and destroy them without difficulty, as well as charging the occasional vehicle.

Really liking how the armies are developing. Thanks so much Tynskel for suggesting flying monstrous creatures and all the other stuff - Harpies are amazing!

I am thinking about synergy now, and whilst it isn't the best army for this, it still hits hard. You have Tervigons and Termagants for support and scoring, as well as providing firepower if necessary - the Tervigons are still nasty in combat, especially against vehicles. The Termagants also get crazy buffs from the Toxin Sacs and Counter-Attack. Then you have the Hive Guard out of sight destroying transports, whilst the Zoanthropes move up in support of the Tervigons/Termagants providing either anti-tank or anti-infantry firepower against the hardier targets. Then you have the fast flankers, the Harpies, providing suppression in the form of two large blasts a turn, one of which is Pinning, whilst tanking lots of firepower due to being Hard to Hit. Then there is the line-breaker, the Trygon, moving up quickly just behind the Harpies, ready to engage the enemies' big threats.

Sounds good in practice. Not the best army list but the target saturation is crazy. 2 flying monstrous creatures, 3 spawning monstrous creatures, then 1 fast and tough monstrous creature.

On the Malanthropes, they do work well as they move up in support of the Termagants and Tervigons. This means they should be charging units in conjunction with others. This way, they also provide the Preferred Enemy buff to all the Termagants nearby. Just curious whether a pair of them is worth losing a Tervigon and Catalyst on the other Tervigons, what do you think?

DarkLink

11-26-2012, 11:08 PM

Tynskel

11-26-2012, 11:11 PM

Remember, harpies significantly aide your troops on the charge. Half int is bad! I feel that a fly rant would be useful with the harpies. What do your shoot, the harpy or tyrant?

Learn2Eel

11-26-2012, 11:37 PM

Just a thought experiment to help hone the list(s): 1) how do you deal with Flyers, 2) how do you deal with deathstars e.g. 10 Paladins/10 THSS Terminators, 3) how do you deal with armies with lots and lots of shooting e.g. mech Guard.

1) We can barely deal with fliers anyway, and I'm not convinced yet to take a 260 point (thereabouts) Hive Tyrant that is likely to be outmatched by other fliers. Not to mention it doesn't stand all that much chance of destroying most fliers. As no-one really plays flyer-heavy armies where I am, I prefer to just focus on durability - I know I won't win in a dogfight, so I just prioritize soaking damage up.
2) That's a problem for virtually any Tyranid army list. The only way to beat other death-stars with Tyranids is either massed shooting, using hordes to tie them up or running the Swarmlord.
3) Again, that's a problem for most Tyranids anyway. Dealing with them would be relying on lots of dirty tricks and cluey units such as Ymgarls, if you mean Leman Russ heavy Guard. Tyranids struggle with mech at ranged, we are basically limited to Hive Guard and Zoanthropes for cost-effective ranged anti-tank.

Mostly though, as much as I might want to be prepared for any situation, the sad truth is that it is hard with a codex like Tyranids to deal with certain armies. Mind you though, I am still learning the trade with them.

Remember, harpies significantly aide your troops on the charge. Half int is bad! I feel that a fly rant would be useful with the harpies. What do your shoot, the harpy or tyrant?

Yes I could see that working. It would be difficult to fit in depending on the army list though - in the first Malanthrope list, unless I drop the Trygon, I wouldn't be able to fit it in. I kind of can't drop points anywhere else lol. Then the question remains what to do with the remaining 190 points. I could do a Mawloc and then give both the Mawloc and the Tyrant toxin sacs. If I run a winged Tyrant, I would just go dual scything talons and toxin sacs with double biomancy.

Learn2Eel

11-27-2012, 05:01 AM

How would you guys convert Harpies? Their codex entry says they are serpentine, like Trygons. Would that be a good place to start? The Trygon kit is only $13 more than the Carnifex kit locally. Also, for the wings I was thinking of Balrog wings. I think they would be appropriately frightening for opponents, albeit hard to carry around.
What do you think? The biggest issue would probably be making the hole for a flying stand. The guns wouldn't be an issue - I would just pilfer them from the Hive Tyrant kit (of which I will eventually buy two).

Anakzar

11-27-2012, 01:47 PM

Tynskel

11-29-2012, 07:10 AM

I use the flying tyrant. I have left over bits from a carnifex.
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?23193-WIP-Harpy&highlight=

Learn2Eel

11-29-2012, 07:39 PM

I used a trygon body, head and part of the tail. I left off the first part of the body so the head could look strait ahead, filled in the gap with green stuff. Cut off the projections on the back of the body and used forgeworld wings from the flying tyrant (got those off E-bay for around $30 including shipping so they might have been illegal copies since I saw another set being sold, same guy). I got the other parts from the E-bay bits sellers for around $30 so total was $60ish. The tail I cut off the end where it curves then lengthened with stiff wire and put green stuff and left over scales for extended carapace on top. I used two deathspitters from carnifex for the gun arms and cut off the the front and then used barbed strangler parts from warriors Magnetized them so I can switch out just the end for venomcannons. I also used 1/2 inch magnets to attach it to the flying base, holds really well. I can hold it sideways without it even moving.

Came out really nice wish I could figure a way to post a picture to show it off... its not painted since I was disappointed with performance on the battle field... even backed up with a Flyrant. One Hit from a las-gun can cause it to drop from the sky and once its down there toughness 5 and 3 wounds left(one str 9 hit from falling) its toast before it can get back up into the air. Its just not very durable for the points cost... sadly. Sure looks nice though.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/asset.php?fid=3283&uid=16304&d=1354073016

The rules for flying monstrous creatures need tweaking in my opinion it would be better if they had to test for falling out of the sky if they took a wound, not if they get hit... heck even a tau marker light that does no damage can take one out of the sky.

That sounds really cool, thanks for the description! That is similar to what I was thinking as well - though for the guns I think I would just "borrow" them from the Hive Tyrant kit - the stranglethorn cannons are easy, then I just have to find a way to model the cluster spines.

Personally I think GW made flying monstrous creatures as a counter to most armies' flyers, but the fact remains that very few flying monstrous creatures can reliably deal with flyers - and many are too expensive for said abilities. I'm guessing flying monstrous creatures will get better as new codices - particularly Tyranids when they are re-done - are released, but yeah, at the moment their best use is as flanking and harassment units. Outside of Chaos Daemons, there aren't any cost-effective flying monstrous creatures that are good at taking on other fliers. However, the Harpy doesn't seem that bad to me - T5 with 4 wounds and 4+ armour save does make it Hydra bait, but for the most part it is pretty decent. However, I am looking at alternatives to them. Every time I find a good option, I discover another one and try to incorporate it into the army list. It is hard working out what is best.

I use the flying tyrant. I have left over bits from a carnifex.
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?23193-WIP-Harpy&highlight=

That's really cool!

If I was to take out the Harpies, what do you guys think would be better investments? I am set for Troops, and am quite happy with Elites - ranged anti-tank is invaluable for Tyranids, and Hive Guard/Zoanthropes do it better than anyone else in the codex. I'm still thinking Trygons for heavy support, particularly as most in my area struggle with monstrous creatures - however, I don't want to go too monstrous creature heavy.

Biovores have always looked a good option to me, and quite a few have pointed out that they are a more efficient point investment than Harpies. For twenty points more than a Harpy with a S6 AP5 large blast and a S5 AP- large blast, as well as a once per game D3 S4 AP4 barrage large blasts, you can get 4 S4 AP4 barrage large blasts that aren't reliant on getting close and can also stay out of line of sight. They are also more durable in terms of ablative wounds, standing at 8 wounds at Toughness 4. Still, that's kind of iffy as I would probably want a second Trygon to make up for the loss of the two Harpies. Not to mention MEQs would be more afraid of the Harpies than the Biovores.

Is the Carnifex with dual brain-leech devourers really that good? It does average about 9 hits, around 8 wounds and 3 failed armour saves against MEQs. With only an 18" range however, it means they are likely to be hitting me hard in return. I guess it does have the bonus of absolutely mauling tanks and walkers when it charges, and even many infantry would struggle against it. I keep coming back to what a Trygon can do for a near equivalent points cost whenever I look at a Carnifex.

Would it be worth dropping the Zoanthropes for the Doom of Malan'tai? The Doom in a mycetic spore is ten points more than two Zoanthropes. Remembering I am using my Elites almost exclusively for anti-tank.

Which HQ do you guys find to be the most worthwhile? There is always the afore-mentioned flying Hive Tyrant, but how to equip it is a pain - double devourers, or double scything talons? Double devourers sounds good, but it does increase the price quite a bit on an already points-intensive model. The Tyranid Prime is great if I need a cheap HQ, and works well with Zoanthropes so that they aren't missile launcher bait. A third Tervigon sounds great, but yeah, offensively it doesn't quite pack the punch of the other choices unless I give it the expensive crushing claws upgrade. The Swarmlord is amazing and can turn entire games on his own quite feasibly, and is also likely to obliterate any enemy deathstar in the game provided he can get into combat (and where I play, on 4x4 tables, that is quite easy). However, he is expensive as hell.

Gargoyles do look good, but working out how to use them properly would be a pain. Do I just leave them as they are and use them as cheap tarpit units and mobile cover for my flying monstrous creatures - and should I thus have one decent sized brood per flying monstrous creature in my army? Raveners look cool but in a meta where MEQs are dominant, they probably aren't the best choice. Shrikes are nasty, but ultimately too expensive IMO. That is especially the case if I want to give them Boneswords.

Well, came up with this as another example list based on the above.

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ dual brain-leech devourers, wings - 260

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200
Biovores (2) - 90

1500

Eh, probably looks worse than my other lists. What I find difficult is what to do with 710 points of the army list - the four Hive Guard, two Zoanthropes, two upgraded Tervigons and twenty Termagants make up 790 points - a very solid foundation to build the rest of the list around. But that last part always gets to me - I keep changing my mind each day. A pair of Trygons makes them very hard targets, but would just one be sufficient as a line-breaker? If I am worried about death-stars, should I take the Swarmlord and one Tyrant Guard with a bonesword - or am I better off not preparing for things like that? Again, I re-iterate that I am not worried about fliers - our tools typically aren't good enough to deal with them anyway. One Harpy? Two Harpies? One Gargoyle brood per flying monstrous creature? How many Gargoyles per brood? Should I take a cheap HQ?

Tynskel

11-30-2012, 12:09 AM

Personally, I am a fan of Screamer Killers.

195 Screamer Killer
–Carnifex, Adrenal Glands, Frag Spines, Bio-Plama, 2x Scything Talons.
Plasma Cannon shot.
5 attacks on the charge (6 if under Rage).
Re-rolls to Hit with Str 10. With the new vehicle close combat rules, there is no better vehicle killer in CC (well, maybe tank bustas). You can a good chance to put down an undamaged Land Raider on the charge (~50% to get an explode on average). If the Land Raider has taken damage, you will probably shut it down for good. And that's the worst case scenario vehicle. Almost every other vehicle out there: you auto-pen with ~4 hits on the charge. The carnifex lives up to its name, again, as the 'living can-opener'.

Learn2Eel

11-30-2012, 09:45 PM

They do sound fine to me, however my problem with Bio Plasma is always the 12" range - if it was 18" or 24", I would be all over it. As it is though, the range makes it too likely for you to hit your own units which should be moving up in conjunction with the Carnifex. Also, I find a Trygon that succumbs to Rage will do almost the same thing against vehicles - 5 smash attacks on the charge, re-rolling all to hit and armour penetration rolls. The Trygon is also a lot more durable with 2 extra wounds and a much higher initiative base to strike before things like power fists and warscythes (the Carnifex suffers from this either on the second turn of an assault or if it doesn't charge). I also find the higher WS means you are less likely to fall to krak-grenade toting MEQs, as they hit you and wound you on 4s instead of hitting on 3s. With Fleet, Deep Strike built-in, and higher base attacks, I just find the Trygon to be a better deal for only 5 points more.

Not trying to sound overly negative or judgmental haha, I just have a preference for Trygons. Your Carnifex build does have benefits the Trygon doesn't though - S10 on the charge without smashing, S9 base, assault grenades, etc. It is also quite a bit smaller and thus easier to hide and get cover saves for.

Tynskel

11-30-2012, 10:32 PM

Learn2Eel

11-30-2012, 10:49 PM

smash is half attacks. even rounding up, that's 4 at most.
When you use a carnifex, you don't care what happens. You have a freight train coming. Either you can deal with it, or you get squished. Trygons are such a priority target, they get blown up easily.

It all depends on the rest of your force. I like using Mawlocs n' Carnifexes. Lot's hormagaunts, and a tyranid prime or parasite. If I go Tyrant, then I take a screamer killer close by, to be the back up for the tyrant. Warriors with troops. etc.

Halving your attacks per Smash is done before adding any modifiers, such as charge bonuses. Hence, for a Trygon, it works like this; halve base attacks (6) = 3 attacks. Add bonuses of Rage = 5. This is why a Daemon Prince with a daemon weapon is exceedingly nasty right now against vehicles as well. If you think your Carnifex is nasty, look at what a Daemon Prince with the Axe of Blind Fury does. Charge into a Land Raider. Smash. Halve your base attacks (5) = 3. Add Rage = 5. Add D6 - for the purposes of this we will say 4.

That is 9 Smash attacks re-rolling all to hit rolls if it is a Loyalist and then re-rolling armour penetration at S10. Yeah. That is an average of 8 hits (including the re-rolls for Hatred against Loyalist vehicles) or 6 against non-Loyalist vehicles. Excuse my math, I have no idea where I got 12 attacks from. That it is WS8 with the Axe also means it will hit much better against things such as Walkers.

The Daemon Prince is obviously more costly, but with wings and a standard invulnerable save, it is much more durable.

Whilst that is true about Trygons being priority targets, I think as you point out it depends on the rest of your force. A lone Carnifex would be a big target if there aren't any other combat-oriented monstrous creatures in your army list. As it is, I just find a Trygon to be much more effective for the points, but with Tyranids you really have to think about the rest of your army I guess. That's still something I am trying to come to terms with.

Anakzar

12-01-2012, 07:13 AM

The screamer-killer version of carnifex is rerolling all missed to hit rolls due to scything talons.

I too think that the bio-plasma was reduced in range too much (started as 36inches but was move or fire). It would also be nice if they had kept rule where scatter was reduced by the range so it could not come back and hit the firing model. (used to be it could not scatter more than half the fired distance.) It should have been turned into a template weapon if the range was going to be reduced that much. Or give carifexes access to thorax swarms...

Lets face it the tyranid codex is just 2nd rate right now... but with a few tweaks it could be much better. Going back and taking a look at 2nd ED codex to use as a base for stat lines ect. The tyranids were meant to be a CC army originally, so all had at least WS4 and high INT except for a few highly specialized types. Carnifex originally had WS6 BS4 INT6 for example... with WS3 and INT1 its not really a CC monster. I would have at least given it WS4 and INT4 to fit in with deadnoughts and walkers. It also had toughness 8 and 10 wounds that's obviously too many wounds for 6th but did the other stats have to be reduced as much as they were?

Don't get me wrong I like all the new models and variety, I just think the codex would have benefitted from the writer trying to keep to the CC theme instead of hoard theme. Basic troops like termagaunts had WS4... Also Hormagaunts had WS4 and STR4... and genestealers really got hit losing 2 attacks and 2 STR as well as 1 WS.

Tynskel

12-01-2012, 07:54 AM

Hah! I read the wrong entry for the trygon.
Well, there's one major advantage the Screamer Killer has over the Trygon: size.

It's ity-bity! Easy to provide cover for.

I think you guys are over hyping up the 'dangers' of Bio-Plasma. I think it works like a charm, and if you are worrying about it scattering onto your units, you didn't take enough bugs, anyhow!
It's a Plasma Cannon! Tyranids don't get AP2 guns!

I wouldn't say the bugs are 'second rate'. 6th Edition has improved them significantly. They can now deal with the moving bunkers. CC is something they have always been good at. Termagants were the response to the moving bunkers, that you could shoot them if they got out of the box. Now, you can just open the can, and use hormogaunts to make minced meat.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/Ron_Stoppable/Tyranids/Carnifex_Evolves.jpg

Anggul

12-01-2012, 09:59 AM

The greater ease of gaining cover/hiding completely and Frag Spines (rarely much help as they're still only I3 and aren't that likely to get the charge anyway) are basically the only things a Screamer-Killer has over a Trygon. Trygons are better in pretty much every other way for their cost. The slightly higher damage to vehicles is pretty negligible, and doesn't sway it nearly enough to outweigh the many other ways in which the Trygon is superior.

Carnifexes are for firing 12 TL S6 shots and stomping on things late-game if they get the opportunity.

Anakzar

12-01-2012, 07:00 PM

Size? Just model the front part of the Trygon put him half way into the ground with green stuff on his base. This way so he is no so tall and screaming (SHOOT me!).

I did that with two Mawlocs and they look very nice and were cheaper due to only needing the front haves... Got them for less than half price by buying from bits sellers. Sadly I had already put the one my brother bought me together as a Trygonprime before I thought of that so he is around 6 inches tall... the two half emerged Mawlocs are 2.5 and 3 inches tall. I was just being cheap and also thought it would look neat, so the shorter height is a bonus...

There is likely some tournament rule against modeling something like that... but so far all my opponents liked how they look.

Learn2Eel

12-01-2012, 07:00 PM

Do you think the double brain-leech devourer Carnifexes are worth the points? They average 9 hits against ground targets, and average around three or four hits when snap-firing. I guess against Marines you do force about eight armour saves on average, leading to two-three failed on average. This is quite good, and as you get closer, obviously being a Carnifex means you can charge into a lot of targets and smash it.

@Anakzar I know a friend who bought a Mawloc that was built like that, and to say he wasn't impressed would be an under-statement. I would imagine that it has to be done right for other players to accept it - it can look like a very bad conversion if you aren't precise I guess.
Honestly though I don't mind the height of Trygons and Mawlocs - I usually want them to be drawing firepower off of other targets anyway.

Hmm here's another example army list going off of that Carnifex idea;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ armored shell, two brain-leech devourers, old adversary - 265
Tyrant Guard (1) w/ lash whip - 65

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Zoanthropes (2) - 120

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Carnifex w/ two brain-leech devourers - 190
Carnifex w/ two brain-leech devourers - 190

More shooty, less assault. I guess you could say that is more focused than the other army lists, as usually the others had mostly shooting and a smattering of melee (which doesn't work). Also re-evaluating my position on Harpies, I think maybe it will have to be something I test before I fully commit to it.

The plan would be to have the Hive Tyrant walking up the middle of the field along with the two Dakkafex's, in addition to the lash-whip Tyrant Guard. Though their guns are twin-linked, preferred enemy will help with wounding things - but it will also help a lot in close combat as all three units lack scything talons and toxin sacs, which is particularly important for the WS3 Carnifexes. The Tervigons would move up on the flanks, supported by the Termagants. On 4x4 boards, this means that nothing in my army will be isolated, even despite them splitting off. The Hive Guard and Zoanthropes provide support and anti-tank firepower as necessary.

This army list has three reliably capable anti-flyer units, and is tough to boot.

Hmm, just thinking aloud here; with that army list above, as I gained 36 S6 shots and thus, in conjunction with 8 S8 shots, am pretty well set for most anti-tank duties, do the Zoanthropes still have a place you think? I mean, obviously they do, as they are always a good unit and my only ranged means of dealing with AV14. However, when I think about it, 18" and considering the Zoanthropes would be staying back means my monstrous creatures would probably already be in charge range of said vehicles. Also just wondering if an Armored Shell Hive Tyrant backed by two Carnifexes' really needs a Tyrant Guard - what I usually see are missile launchers, not lascannons. Because that would mean I could free up 185 points to go somewhere else, i.e. another Tervigon (but as a HQ). Some alternatives; a Ymgarl Genestealer brood, the Doom of Malan'tai in a mycetic spore, etc. If I took the Doom, I would have 55 points spare.

In fact, actually thinking that third Tervigon sounds like a fantastic idea. Why you might ask? It moves behind the Hive Tyrant and the two Carnifexes, and spawns Termagants which can then proceed to bubble-wrap the monstrous creature trio and give them both cover and defense against potential charges. In addition, the Tervigon itself can be giving Feel No Pain to whichever creature will probably be taking the most heat (likely the Hive Tyrant).

Actually yes, here we go;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ armored shell, two brain-leech devourers, old adversary - 265
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Carnifex w/ two brain-leech devourers - 190
Carnifex w/ two brain-leech devourers - 190

I think that is a better army list than the others I have come up with, to be honest. I don't need flying monstrous creatures because the midfield trio can effectively deal with most enemy flyers pretty well.
As well, the only obvious target (i.e. like the Trygon) is the Hive Tyrant, but with 2+ armour and likely Feel No Pain, he is a tough nut to crack. Especially if he rolls Iron Arm! Plus, he is much smaller than the Trygon and will be able to get cover much easier.

Also just realized this army can deal with the aforementioned 10 TH/SS Terminators. Assuming they walk, as deep-striking is too risky with such a big unit, my midfield trio will get at least two rounds of shooting at them. Each monster averages one kill per turn in shooting, meaning three dead Terminators each turn. That's a minimum six dead before they assault. And then, they have to charge any spawned Termagants bubble-wrapping the trio. With preferred enemy, counter attack and toxin sacs, they stand a good chance of killing one Terminator. In the ensuing round, I can either send more Termagants in or, if the Terminators wiped the squad out, just shoot and charge the remainders for an easy kill.

So yes, now I can deal with flyers and death stars.

So less wounds, more quality shooting, and a focus rather than two Trygons which don't fit with the rest of the army, the Tyrant also provides great buffs. Also better close-quarters anti-tank overall, and in essence a more durable selection of targets.

Also, to really give my opponents the craps as far as Slay the Warlord goes, make it the Tervigon running up behind the monstrous trio. 4+ cover on T6 6 wounds :cool:

Tynskel

12-01-2012, 10:08 PM

Honestly, I would go with 1 set of devourers on the tyrant and either get a different gun, or preferably, keep the Lashwhip/Bonesword. The chances of you getting a psychic power that is a gun (either through the Tyranid Codex or Main Rulebook) are quite high, and it would be a shame to only fire 2 of 3 guns, instead of 2 guns and be really fearsome in close combat.

This is also just me. I would mix it all up. Drop a fex. Drop a termagant brood. Drop a tervigon. Drop a hive guard brood (although, I'd bump the 2 to 3).
No spam. You can make seriously awesome armies in the tyranids if you say to yourself "no spam".

Learn2Eel

12-01-2012, 10:16 PM

Hmm I do see your point. I wouldn't bother with a different gun, but the extra combat weapon would be good. It depends though, in reality I am losing 6 S6 twin-linked shots in exchange for making enemies in base contact at the start of the fight sub-phase Initiative 1 and making enemies take a leadership test or die. IMO with preferred enemy and his basic stat-line he is still a close combat beast, but I guess that is a matter of perspective. As far as I can tell even with double devourers he will eat most other monstrous creatures or characters for breakfast.

WS8, S6, T6, W4, A4, I5, 2+ armour, Shadow in the Warp for defence against force weapons, Feel No Pain from a Tervigon, plus whatever Biomancy powers he rolls with, then you have Preferred Enemy everything. Being a monstrous creature means I can instant-death T5 or lower beasties too with Smash.

If I go with Biomancy, there is realistically only a 33.3* % chance of rolling a witchfire power. Also, it depends on what witchfire you roll. If I get the Life Leech power, I would only use that against specific opponents or when I have lost wounds, so it is situational and the second set of Devourers is still good. If I roll Hemorrhage, I probably wouldn't use it anyway as it is a mediocre power.

But replace it with what though? That's the thing, I'm still unversed on how to really make different units in the codex work with each other. I know what they do, but applying them would be difficult.
Just remember, I'm still a noob to these guys. Working them out is going to take a while haha. They definitely aren't easy to learn like Chaos Space Marines.

Tynskel

12-01-2012, 10:50 PM

If you are seriously interested in adding firepower to the Tyrant, take a Thorax Swarm. Template weapons work great, if you get a shooty power, you now get three guns. Oh, and you'll mess up anything in close combat.

Why the Lash+Bonesword? Because there are many units out there that will want your Tyrant dead. 1 on 1, a tyrant can put the smack down on most things. If you have the Lashwhips and Bonesword, you change from 'can' to 'will'. A tyrant is a character, and can be challenged. Just imagine a Grey Knight with force weapon. There's a good chance your tyrant is gone on the go (Look at Captain Sicarius- 1 attach, but str6 instant death). However, with things like Implant Attack and Boneswords, you are giving yourself multiple opportunities to remove threats before they can do anything.

The thing about bugs: just about all the units work well together. Here's a hint. Smash + Meat. Never charge anything by itself. If you keep that in mind, your army will be gold.

Ex.
A carnifex will win combat if it charges with Hormogaunts. The combined wounds will usually wipe your opponent.

Ex. 2
Skyslashers with Tyrant. The meat keeps your tyrant alive. The tyrant kills just about anything of trouble.

Learn2Eel

12-01-2012, 10:59 PM

Do you think so? It would reduce the durability of the Hive Tyrant quite a bit, especially against Grey Knight force weapons. 2+ armour makes a massive difference against most weapons in close combat - the Hive Tyrant would usually be able to easily kill whatever it is whilst tanking its 2+ armour. It also means it can laugh off things like missile launchers. Mind you, a Thorax Swarm with dessicator larvae is pretty nasty.

I know that part, but I still don't buy into it. With Armoured Shell, the only real weapons I would be worried about ignoring my armour commonly would be striking at Initiative 1 anyway. The Bonesword isn't likely to hurt most characters I challenge, and low leadership characters tend to be only squad leaders anyway. Against Leadership 10, that is only an 18% chance of killing them with the Bonesword test. With Armoured Shell and depending on what Biomancy powers I roll, I wouldn't be too worried about most Grey Knights. Especially if I get Iron Arm and Feel No Pain from a Tervigon or Endurance, I would find that the Hive Tyrant would even be able to take on Draigo and do pretty well for itself. Plus, always have to remember Shadow in the Warp - basically the Tyranid answer to stopping most force weapons.

I don't buy into Implant Attack, not for how much it costs. That's just my opinion though. It would be more useful on other things in the codex I think.

Well yeah, but as far as an entire army goes, it isn't that simple. With the way the army works, I wouldn't be charging anything solo anyway - with lots of spawned Termagants (each Tervigon averages around 20 - meaning 80 for the triple Tervigon list) and six monstrous creatures, I can make a pretty big footprint.

Tynskel

12-01-2012, 11:57 PM

You gotta understand, the Hive Tyrant is NOT cheap. And things like Implant Attack combined with Bonesword and Lashwhips incrementally add up.

Then chance of rolling a 6 to wound is 1 in 6. So, if you roll a 6 to wound, and your opponent botches their invul, bam, dead. If you have the bonesword, now, add in a test for the rest of the wounds that get past the invul. With both, the chance becomes ~1/5 for each successful wound to outright kill.
There are also PLENTY of units out there that will Eat the Tyrant for Lunch in CC, chewing through the 2+ armor. The Lashwhips flip the tables around. Take a Black Mace'd Prince. Or a Greater Daemon of Slannesh with Instant Death. Lashwhips can save your character's butt.

Learn2Eel

12-02-2012, 03:41 AM

I know Hive Tyrants aren't cheap. Hence, I don't want to spend any points on them than are absolutely necessary. Implant Attack is a 1 in 6 chance to inflict instant death. The close combat monsters you talk about that can eat a Hive Tyrant for breakfast usually have Eternal Warrior, so it only comes into play against HQs the Hive Tyrant is likely to kill outright anyway. Against most things where Instant Death would be useful, you will probably be able to kill it outright with Smash anyway and save yourself 15 points. As such, it only really becomes useful against other T6 or higher monstrous creatures, and at that point I would much rather Toxin Sacs for more reliable wounding, not only because it is cheaper but because it means I won't have a hard time offing things like Wraithlords and Pain Engines.

A 20% chance still isn't worth it IMO, again, when you consider what units it would actually really be useful against. If it was paired boneswords, it would be fine, but as it is, an 18% chance against Leadership 10 - which is common for close combat monster characters - just isn't something I would rely on. The only really useful part of the combo is the lash whip, which of course is great but it depends on what you fight.

A Black Mace Daemon Prince, obviously yeah it would save your butt - in reality though, if it charges through any kind of terrain then you are safe anyway. A Keeper of Secrets? Nope. Even if it strikes after the Hive Tyrant, the Keeper of Secrets will still kick the Tyrant's butt most of the time - more attacks, same WS, ability to make the Hive Tyrant lose an attack, a 4+ invulnerable save, etc. By the way, Keepers of Secrets don't have instant death of any kind barring their S value. Lords of Change do however with Soul Devourer - which is functionally identical to a Bonesword.
And again, this is another reason I wouldn't bother with Implant Attack - it can only affect the Daemon Prince, and even then, you can just Smash and instant death it with S10.

Of course the Hive Tyrant can be monstered in close combat, I wasn't saying it can't. But generally speaking, a 2+ armoured monstrous creature with its' statline is going to do pretty well for itself most of the time. Halving its' shooting effectiveness for somewhat increased melee capability just doesn't sit well with me. Of course, this is just my opinion - generally speaking, the lash whips won't make a difference against a lot of the characters that will kill me anyway, ala Draigo, Lysander, Abaddon and co. I would be worried about an Archon with a Huskblade for sure though.

It can also come down to what Biomancy powers you roll I guess, but that is situational. With only a 33.3* % chance to get Iron Arm, it isn't something to be relied upon.

In reality, I put the Hive Tyrant in as a durable foil for the Carnifexes and to give them Preferred Enemy. Ultimately, I could very well do with something else as I already have a HQ in the second list, it is just what to do with the points I guess. 265 is quite a tax. It was basically something I threw in to go along with the idea of brain-leech Carnifexes, which I actually do really see the value of now. However, again, still working on the chinks lol! The funny thing is that I could drop 15 points somewhere and take the Swarmlord, but eh.

An idea would be taking the Doom of Malan'tai in a spore and a cheap "Broodlord delivery" Genestealer squad. Just an idea off the top of my head.

Learn2Eel

12-02-2012, 04:47 AM

Now it's readable.

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160

Probably the most 'competitive' army list I would want to do, but again, just a template. Have to really go back to square one with 'Nids lol.
Aside from spawning hordes of Termagants, I don't consider two of the same option to be "spam" - more-so I see it as target redundancy.
The Doom just drops in does what it does best, but it won't necessarily be alone when it comes down with three flying monstrous creatures tearing up.
Given that, again, I am in an MEQ-foot-slogging heavy meta, do you think this is a good base to start off with? Remembering I am not looking to win games first-up, but have fun and yet be competitive.
Cheers again.

One last question. Do I have to use actual Devourers from the Carnifex kit, or converted Termagant ones, to represent them on a Hive Tyrant? Just curious because I always thought the two big cannons in the set could be used as them - in fact, would that be legal with some tweaking? That's just the way I thought a flying Hive Tyrant with them would look - having two big guns. Eh, to me the Devourers look silly on monstrous creatures.

An alternative to the Hive Guard and Harpy is to take two broods of seven Ymgarl Genestealers and take Hive Commander on the Warlord Hive Tyrant.
For example;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers, hive commander - 285
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers, toxin sacs - 270

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130
Ymgarl Genestealers (7) - 161
Ymgarl Genestealers (7) - 161

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

It would just mean I am more reliant on my Hive Tyrants popping transports on the first turn - and on average they will actually wreck AV11 3HP transports. I usually see no more than two transports so that is all well and good. Plus, two broods of Ymgarls might be harder to use than Hive Guard and a Harpy, but they can be oh so much better at taking out targets of opportunity and even playing mind games with my opponent.

Tynskel

12-03-2012, 01:42 PM

Learn2Eel

12-03-2012, 09:25 PM

I would swap one set of Ymgarls for 3 Hive Guard.

I would drop one tervigon. Combine the termagants into one squad.
Use the 195 points on something else. get some genestealers, maybe toxin sacs, but really keep them bare bones? The idea is to make some Phat broods that take serious firepower to take down.

Done and done!

List 1 - Without Genestealers

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers, hive commander - 285
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130
Hive Guard (3) - 150
Ymgarl Genestealers (8) - 184

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

List 2 - With Genestealers
HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers, hive commander - 285
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130
Hive Guard (3) - 150
Ymgarl Genestealers (7) - 161

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Termagants (20) - 100
Genestealers (12) w/ broodlord - 214

Also came up with what I think is a better Swarmlord list than the ones I came up with previously based on some advice I found, but I wanted to ask your opinion; do you think it is worth purchasing three powers for a Tervigon and then going all Biomancy? If I run them in the popular combat configuration (Adrenals, Toxin, Crushing Claws, three powers - swap Biomancy) EDIT: Scratch that, I keep forgetting that Onslaught is the psychic shooting attack, not Catalyst. In fact, if I want my Tervigons charging things, maybe I should just swap them out for Biomancy whenever I feel it is necessary. In any case, here is such a list, though there are alterations based on whether I should have two units of two Hive Guard or one unit of three and a third psychic power for each Tervigon (I went with the former);

HQ
The Swarmlord - 280
Tyrant Guard (1) - w/ bonesword - 75

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

This Swarmlord list actually benefits from having a big horde element to it (that is an average of 60 Termagants spawned per game!), also lots of target saturation - three 'loaded' Tervigons, the Doom, etc. Also good anti-tank for what I need in four Hive Guard - they should be enough to deal with most anti-tank I come up with. Obviously, the Swarmlord only has one Tyrant Guard to benefit from Iron Arm. I think it is pretty nasty, personally.

Learn2Eel

12-04-2012, 05:01 PM

By the looks of things I will be going with the Swarmlord list first up, mostly because I want to get the most awesome looking Hive Tyrant (IMO) first up and build the Swarm around it (even if I know that doesn't really make sense from a fluff perspective). Also, it will be nice running a massive horde element combined with four very brutal monsters.

Emerald Rose Widow

12-06-2012, 04:05 AM

I dont suggest you use clusterspines with the tervigon, I mean its an ok shot, but tbh I would rather be able to overwatch with a tervigon. You never know what kind of damage that will do, tis not a lot but its better than nothing to me. That is just my two cents though.

Dakkafexes (devourer carnifexes) I have had good experience with, they take out fliers really reliably, at least as reliably as you can get with tyranids and fliers. The flying tyrant with dual dakka is also effective at this as well, mix the two and you can really take down fliers well if you are careful. Also the dakkafex does a good job with infantry, all that twin linked fire is just sick.

Learn2Eel

12-06-2012, 04:27 AM

Heh, the only time I've ever really done damage from Overwatch is with flamer weapons, so four shots at S5 doesn't fill me with much confidence. Especially as the large blast, if it hits, should get more wounds through against bigger units. But eh, I think as you say it comes down to preference.

I am planning on getting two Dakkafexes and two winged Dakkatyrants eventually, but first up I just want to stick to the Swarmlord list until I can get more stuff as the Swarmlord is just too awesome a model not to use :D

Learn2Eel

12-08-2012, 07:17 PM

Got a Swarmlord and three Tervigons on the way :) As well, I'm buying two of those 5-strong Termagant boxes each week until I get up to around 90 (they work out to be quite a bit cheaper per model, also because I don't really need the other options when I am using them as Tervigon-based hordes).

I have a question about something I am getting on Thursday though (a trade with a friend); I am getting a Trygon, as well as the additional bits. The bits I will be using to convert up a Zoanthrope model I have into a Doom of Malan'tai, but what to do with the Trygon leaves me kind of stumped - given that I will have spare wings from the Swarmlord kit, should I convert it into a Harpy? The Trygon is already built, so I would have to rip it off the base and stuff (or maybe show it taking off - do Harpies ever land?) Just wondering because eventually I will be using Flying Hive Tyrants - for heavy support, I think Dakkafexes will also be a better bet.

Thanks for any input!

Tynskel

12-09-2012, 12:45 AM

well, I would hold off, at the moment, with the wings. keep collecting until you get ideas for what to do with the wings. It is much easier to covert a start from scratch model than it is to covert an already completed miniature.

Learn2Eel

12-09-2012, 07:32 PM

Cheers Tynskel, yeah that's probably the way to go. My LGS owner did offer to help me convert it into a Harpy if I buy Balrog wings for it instead, but eh, I'd rather not buy a pair of wings when I already have a couple spare.

Tynskel

12-09-2012, 10:45 PM

Yeah.

I have a giant bitz box. Like, for example, I bought the city sector set. I haven't built a building, but instead, I use it to base models, add bitz to things, etc.

The other thing that I do is every few months or so, I go to discount bitz dealers, and buy a bitz bag. For the bitz.

Learn2Eel

12-13-2012, 06:39 AM

So far I've got 15 Termagants, the Doom of Malan'tai, and a Trygon. I've also got the Swarmlord and three Tervigons on the way.
Just thinking - the Hive Guard are probably the last thing I will get, maybe I can just substitute them out for a Trygon in a straight swap. The Trygon would make an already hardy list even more laughable (at least for my meta) - do you shoot at the Swarmlord, the three 'Crusher' Tervigons, the Trygon, or the Doom? Target saturation :)
Obviously not much ranged firepower at all, which sucks, but hey, the Trygon will be a stand in at least until I can get some more experience with my 'Nids. If it keeps doing well, I'll keep it on, though I think Trygons only work well either in pairs or backed by lots of other viable targets for your opponent.

I am actually interested in seeing what is the primary target for my opponents - the Swarmlord, the Trygon, or the three Tervigons. I've brought this up before, but still valid :D Especially when most of the time four of them will have Feel No Pain!

dwez

12-13-2012, 07:05 AM

As well, I'm buying two of those 5-strong Termagant boxes each week until I get up to around 90 (they work out to be quite a bit cheaper per model, also because I don't really need the other options when I am using them as Tervigon-based hordes).

You should be looking on ebay and in bitz auctions as quite often they're the best value for making hordes and personally I use the other options to differentiate spawned units. They may be all the same once spawned but you do need to keep ttrack of which model belongs to which brood, for victory point purposes and first blood etc.

Learn2Eel

12-13-2012, 10:14 PM

That's a good idea with the markers, I'll figure that one out as obviously I would have to adapt them on the fly.

dwez

12-14-2012, 01:00 AM

That's a good idea with the markers, I'll figure that one out as obviously I would have to adapt them on the fly.

I have 10 with adrenals, 10 with toxin sacs so any spawns of 10 or less will be those models and any 11 or more will be some vanilla ones. I've around 60, but I've only ever bought one big box of gaunts and the little 5 brood box. The rest are all ebay rejects ;)

Learn2Eel

12-19-2012, 01:43 AM

Trying to decide whether I should build the Swarmlord or a flying hive tyrant. I was set on the former, but not so sure now.
Also, for brainleech devourers, would using the two large cannons in the kit be acceptable? I don't have any devourers and apparently it is hard to make two sets of them.
Taking the flying tyrant leaves me 100 points spare, to take one of 20 Gargoyles, two extra Hive Guard, two Biovores, or drop points somewhere to get a Harpy.

Learn2Eel

12-20-2012, 03:39 AM

To make the Devourers for the Flyrant my LGS owner actually recommended I use the Fleshborer Hive from the Tyrannofex kit. He showed it to me and said that he thinks it would be a cool conversion/stand-in. Makes sense too, two of them in a set (so twin-linked) and each individual one has two sides to it (two sets). Works for me, and no worrying about losing the legs or anything major.

I think taking the Harpy would be best for where I am playing, again, there are far more foot-slogging armies now. A lot of light infantry are popping up as well, though I assume that will change back once Dark Angels are released.
Not to mention the obsession some people have for Devastators or heavy weapons teams.....which the Harpy is perfect for killing :D
Just thinking on how to convert it. I know I will use a Trygon, but the Balrog wings I was going to use are no longer sold by GW separately :(. I'll have to wait until I get the Swarmlord for a good set of wings.

Learn2Eel

12-23-2012, 07:15 AM

Hmm, it would be hard to fit the Harpy in. I just realized I had been accidentally adding in Onslaught on my Tervigons without paying for it, and was using said points to free up for the Harpy.
It is a model I look forward to building and trying out, monstrous creatures tend to be boss where I play, and having five-six of them in 1500 points plus a very good horde element would be pretty decent.

Each Tervigon I use is as follows;
Tervigon w/ cluster spines, crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, catalyst - 220

A common build obviously, striking a bit of a balance between full-on 'Tervifex' and standard support. I will be running three of these beasties at 1500 points - all as Troops. If I really want to fit the Harpy in, I can drop crushing claws on two of them and drop adrenal glands on the third. That way, two of them stay as support and the third one stays as combat. Just an idea. Though I guess most would recommend simply not dropping that much to take the Harpy and just fill out the Hive Guard? I could even drop one unit of Hive Guard, bump the other up to three, and drop Adrenal Glands on one of the Tervigons (one of them is going to be modeled with the Tyrannofex head for such purposes, i.e. if it is a HQ choice instead). That might be best. Actually, I think that would be the best idea. The single unit of three Hive Guard will wreck AV10/AV11 on average and do significant damage to AV12 and some damage to AV13. Less redundancy, but gives me the Harpy which doubles the survival chances of my Hive Tyrant - also effectively makes the Tervigons and Termagants even less likely to die. Though having two units of three Hive Guard would probably be the more 'competitive' choice I guess, letting my Termagants and Tervigons blast/charge the squishy meat and not worry about taking down transports.

Whilst I use the Trygon as a stand-in for the two units of Hive Guard though, this becomes difficult. I guess to fit the Harpy in I could always drop the Doom (:() and have 230 points to spend, leading to a Harpy and 70 points of upgrades for my other beasties. In that case, I would probably give the Tervigons Onslaught and the Hive Tyrant Old Adversary.

Sorry for the bother of reading my tripe. I just find I have to write to answer my own questions :D

EDIT: I figured it would be a lot better simply to get a second flying Hive Tyrant. Though it means I wouldn't be getting the Swarmlord any time soon, it would save me money by not having to buy a Trygon to build a Harpy - though I guess I could still do that and just wait until I get the Swarmlord/use dragon wings.

In any case, I had an idea - as much as my initial impressions of the unit weren't high, I've really been looking at the Tyrannofex lately. However, I am looking at it strictly with the Acid Spray - I still don't buy into the Rupture Cannon or the Fleshborer Hive at all. On a 4x4, my usual gaming table, getting into range isn't an issue. Also, long-ranged anti-tank is obviously much less of an issue when my Hive Guard should be in range on turn one. I look at it like this - I am seeing a tonne of foot-slogging armies now, and xenos armies are getting more popular. With the Acid Spray, Dessicator Thorax Swarm (always wounds on a 2+) and Cluster Spines, if for example I was getting 10 hits from each flamer template and got a direct hit with the Cluster Spines, that averages to about 8 dead Tactical Marines per turn. Then, of course, I can charge and mop up the rest. In that sense, it is fantastic against all infantry (even Terminators due to the sheer number of saves forced - using the above example, it would average about 4 dead Terminators!) and, being a monstrous creature, a very huge threat to any vehicle. Given the smaller boards I play on, monstrous creatures destroying vehicles would be quite common (unless my Hive Guard already take them out). Then there's the other stuff - it is nearly impossible to kill, missile launchers bounce off its' 2+ armour, and the new cover rules mean I can get 4+ or 5+ cover saves very easily. Not to mention it can readily get Feel No Pain from one of my many Tervigons.

Going off how I would have 230 points spare in the above example, I would use this instead of the second flying Hive Tyrant. In either case, I have to drop Adrenal Glands on two or three of the Tervigons (which isn't a huge loss as toxin sacs are more important anyway). Obviously, the flying Hive Tyrant is better overall, but this would be a fun idea nonetheless - it would definitely be much, much better against infantry. Given that, again, I probably won't have any Hive Guard for a while, I could be using this army;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 210
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 210
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200
Tyrannofex w/ acid spray, cluster spines - 250

A fun army list, not the best but definitely fun. I would imagine having both a Trygon and a Tyrannofex in addition to my other gribblies would give my opponents some severe target saturation headaches....
With three Tervigons, all with Catalyst, I can just give the Tyrant(s), the Trygon and the Tyrannofex Feel No Pain as well :D

Tynskel

12-24-2012, 11:04 PM

Well,it's a start, but I'd fall asleep playing that list after 4 games.

Learn2Eel

12-24-2012, 11:37 PM

Don't worry, I'll be expanding the army quite a bit over the next year or two. My aim is for Tyranids to be my 'core' army, ahead of even my beloved Chaos. Really, just from building a lowly Zoanthrope I knew they were my new favourites...
I wanted to start out with a competitive core, I think that it should be good to learn to use them in terms of high-end play. Or, rather, I won't lose horribly in my first couple of games and get turned off the army.

I am already looking at things like Raveners, Gargoyles and Ymgarl Genestealers. But those will be down the track.

I'll most likely get my second flying Hive Tyrant in the next few days, then after that I'll be focused on building up my Termagants - hopefully I will be able to start playing games in early to mid-January. I've got 15 at the moment, with another 10 already ordered. Once I've got about 60 up, then I can unleash the swarm.

By the way, building Tervigons is a pain in the backside! I also love how the Hive Tyrant instruction manual is twice the size of the Tervigon one :cool:

Tynskel

12-24-2012, 11:58 PM

I really like the tervigon/tyrannofex kits and the hive tyrant kits. I was so stoked when those came out!

I do find bugs a rewarding army to collect. I have been collecting mine since the early 90s.

Learn2Eel

12-25-2012, 08:56 PM

Yeah they are great kits, just annoying as hell doing the legs for the Tervigon. The first one I built gave me severe headaches - it took me an hour just to position and stick the legs in, particularly the front ones (which are the cause of the issues). On my second one though, I used an object that was at a perfect height so that the back legs and the object were holding the model up. Whilst the back legs dried and were in position - flat against the ground - I then carefully put the front legs in place without pushing them in/applying force. This allowed them to sit there in the right position with no pressure on them - aside from holding them for about ten seconds to prevent them from moving out of position, they stuck perfectly. I just left them for half an hour to make sure the model dried, then moved on to the Tervigon-specific parts.

I am amazed at how many spare bits I have from those kits, particularly the Hive Tyrant kit. Crazy to think you get such a good model on only two sprues!

I should be able to play my first game next week, though I have to think it through a bit. The gaming league I mentioned in that 1500 Chaos army list topic is starting next Wednesday, and I am actually thinking I will go with the 'Nids. Everyone expects me to bring Chaos (I am the main/best Chaos player in the store), it will be a big surprise to pop up with a Hive Fleet :D The only issue is the Termagants; I have 15 right now, and I should be getting 10 tomorrow. EDIT: Scratch that, I don't need the second flyrant. I'll just order 40 Termagants in for next week instead, giving me 65 in total.

For a 1000 point army list, which do you think looks better? I probably won't have Hive Guard until February or even March, which sucks, but thankfully ranged anti-mech isn't too big an issue where I play.

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers (warlord) - 260

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200

Or;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers (warlord) - 260
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 195
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

I think the first army list is better personally. The Tervigons have more offensive punch and both are giving out Furious Charge as opposed to one, and the Trygon serves as a fantastic foil for the Hive Tyrant. I know the one thing most people in my store fear above all others when it comes to Tyranids is the Trygon. Good way to keep fire off of my Warlord.
Plus, dealing with hordes of Termagants with Furious Charge and Poison, as well as three six-wound monstrous creatures and a flying monstrous creature with four wounds will be exceedingly difficult for most at 1000 points :cool: Not to mention I'll be handing out Feel No Pain to whoever needs it and the Hive Tyrant will be rolling two powers from Biomancy - meaning I will get a good power (5 out of 6) in every game. Try and stop an Iron Arm/Warp Speed flying Hive Tyrant with double-devourers at 1000 points!

Learn2Eel

12-27-2012, 01:00 AM

I had my first batch of games with my Tyranids today! And I am happy to report that all went very well :)

I got to play three 500 point games (the rules were that you had to have a minimum 1 HQ and 1 Troop as opposed to minimum 2 Troops, we were playing on 2x2 boards to accommodate more people), using the following army list;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Troops
Tervigon w/ toxin sacs, cluster spines, catalyst - 185
Termagants (11) - 55

First Game
Playing against Space Marines with a Forge World character that makes Lightning Claw Terminators a Troops choice (he had five of them) and has a pair of lightning claws and a pair of chainfists, as well as three scout bikers.

Mission - The Scouring
Warlord Traits - Both of ours were unused (I had re-roll failed reserve rolls, he had Outflank which he couldn't really make use of)

The Game - I have first turn, his scout bikers scout move forwards. The Scout Bikers survived 7 armour saves at 4+ from the Hive Tyrant on the first turn - I was unlucky not to get First Blood. He killed a few Termagants on turn one whilst his Terminators slogged up the field. My Tervigon didn't expend itself at all, and didn't take a wound throughout the game. My Termagants charged and eventually killed his Scout Bikers, his Terminators were wiped out (attaining First Blood) through massed shooting and his character was eventually killed by the Hive Tyrant (who didn't suffer wounds either). None of my 11 starting Termagants died, so I essentially only lost free models.
I was holding two objectives and had both First Blood and Slay the Warlord, as well as killing a Fast Attack choice, for a total of 9 victory points to 0.

Second Game
Playing against Chaos Space Marines, my opponent had Havocs with four missile launchers, three five-man Chaos Space Marine squads (one with a flamer) and a Slaaneshi Chaos Lord with a power sword.

Mission - Big Guns Never Tire
Warlord Traits - Mine was useless but his was relevant (he had Hatred, I had Move Through Cover - which my entire army already had)

The Game - I went second, though luckily Night Fighting was in play and I used this to my advantage. My Tervigon lost a wound and that was it. My Hive Tyrant rolled with Iron Arm and moved up, unloading into the Havocs, but he passed eight out of nine armour saves. :( Again, my Tervigon didn't expend itself until the very last turn. The starting Termagant brood sat on an objective in a ruin for the entire game. The Termagant units I spawned were moving up to the middle, backed by the Tervigon. His next turn leads to a handful of dead Termagants, and he luckily hits my Hive Tyrant with one missile launcher, wounding it (it was T9!). I take a risk and hit the ground, aiming to charge the small five man-unit with attached Chaos Lord, but rolled a 3 for my charge distance when I needed a 4. Next turn, his entire army shoots at and kills the Tyrant, giving him First Blood and Slay the Warlord. My Termagants take pot shots from the midfield, and after using cover to my advantage to slowly move up on that turn, my Tervigon and a big brood of Termagants move into his units outside of cover. The result soon becomes elementary as my other spawned Termagant units move up, whilst yet two others sit on my backfield and the middle objectives.
I was holding two objectives and contesting his, and I had Slay the Warlord (go you Tervigon!), whilst he had First Blood and Slay the Warlord. I win 7 victory points to 2.

Third Game
I played against another Chaos Space Marines player, he was initially going to use an army list he had used against another opponent but tailored it to fight mine. He had Havocs with Heavy Bolters, an Obliterator and a ten-man Chaos Space Marine squad with a missile launcher, as well as a Mastery Level 2 Sorcerer.

Mission - The Emperor's Will
Warlord Traits - We both had a useless trait (he got Black Crusader, I got Master of Defence)

The Game - I seized the initiative, which was very lucky considering the board had very little cover and night fighting was not on. On the first turn, my Tyrant flew up and unloaded into the Havocs, again killing only one due to some great dice rolling - I made sure to flank it on the other side of his force and keep terrain between me and him, I learned after the last game to have other elements nearby when charging! Again, my Tervigon didn't expend itself. The Tervigon didn't take a wound in the entire game. Though he blasted some Termagants, I kept spawning them. I gave him the advice of killing the Tervigon first. I left a brood sitting in cover on my home objective. After some more shooting from the Tyrant and running up the field from the others, I eventually charged on turn 3, tying up his Obliterator and his Chaos Marines. The Hive Tyrant challenged and killed the Sorcerer before he could strike. The Termagants swarmed through the Havocs. Eventually, my Hive Tyrant got back-up from other Termagants and ended up sweeping the Chaos Marines. The Obliterator was all he had left at the end of my turn 4, and he called it.
I was holding two objectives and had both First Blood and Slay the Warlord for a convincing 8 victory points to 0 victory.

I am very happy with the army! I've already been learning very quickly during the games, despite the fact they were three crushing victories. Some of my thoughts;

1) In objectives games, it is not hard to see why Tervigons are so amazing. I was probably lucky that I wasn't expending myself, but to be fair, I was only spawning on my first two turns then refusing to on the third (I only had 30 Termagants available, so essentially I waited for more to die before attempting to spawn again). I can't imagine what running three would be like - I guess I will know fairly soon when my other 25 Termagants arrive next week! I could literally keep talking for pages about the applications of these but I will leave it there. I think it is definitely best used to advance up the field, buffing itself or other units with Feel No Pain and using cover to its advantage whilst bubble-wrapped by Termagants. Even without Crushing Claws, it is still decent in combat, being able to pick out enemy characters which is really funny against Chaos Marines!

2) Termagants are so darn good. That 11-strong squad sat in cover, out of the way for the most part. It is the equivalent of running a 10-man Cultist squad for Chaos, except only better! Within 12" of a synapse creature, they get Fearless and get good cover saves just by sitting somewhere. When paired with Tervigons, these things are ridiculous. My opponents were all very surprised at how my Termagants all had Poison (I made sure to keep the forward-moving ones near the Tervigon) and struck at I4. Having Move Through Cover is also great. Their guns are actually very decent when you consider how many of them you have. 12" S4 AP5 Assault 1 is very good for a horde unit, especially a free one! I forgot Counter Attack in the first game, but it made a difference when I did remember. Very impressed with these, and they will be even more awesome when they get Furious Charge as well! One thing I noticed was that if I use them to baby-sit a back-field objective that is in cover, failing an Instinctive Behaviour test doesn't matter as they just sit in the terrain and can still shoot normally! Mind you, in bigger games I wouldn't be able to just leave them by themselves, as no doubt enemies would have more ways of getting to them.

3) The Hive Tyrant really didn't do much, he didn't even really draw much fire-power (except in the second game). The Devourers are better than I thought - only good armour save rolling and stupid tactical decisions by myself prevented them from claiming lots of kills. In the first game, they gunned down two Terminators and a Scout Biker. In the second game, they killed a Havoc and a Chaos Space Marine. In the third game, they killed three Havocs and one Chaos Space Marine. Granted, they will be much better against vehicles and non-MEQ infantry. The mobility is great, even if the cost is exorbitant. Two Biomancy powers can really give it crazy buffs - two games in a row I got Iron Arm. It is funny though, it did a lot of damage in combat - killing that Forge World special character, and sweeping a Chaos Space Marine squad.

I will probably play some 1000 point games tomorrow, going off the list above except I will add in an extra Tervigon, another 10 Termagants, trim the first squad down to 10, add in a Trygon, and give both Crushing Claws and Adrenal Glands to the pair of Tervigons (the second Tervigon will also have Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines and Catalyst like the first Tervigon). To be perfectly honest, several people called my 500 point list cheese, and quite a few on-lookers made the joke that 'Tyranids are broken!' I can't wait to see what they think of my 1000 point army.

TLDR - Success for Hive Fleet Hydra!

1000 Tyranid Army
HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200

I'll be playing on 4x4s in games above 500 points, so my opponents will have more space to spread out. Granted though, I'll be interested to see how they deal with the army - in this list, the Termagants are even better and the Tervigons are much nastier in combat. Plus, ignoring a Trygon is just stupid. Ignoring two Tervigons is silly. Ignoring a flying monstrous creature causing havoc is not the best idea. Target saturation :cool:

Learn2Eel

12-28-2012, 05:20 AM

Another game today, though this time was my first 1000 point game, using the army list above. Obviously, this presented a whole new challenge as I was actually playing on a 4x4 (my average game board size) and my opponent was able to fit in a lot more threatening units they would not have otherwise been able to fit in at 500 points. My opponent had help from a friend in writing their army list, and tailored it specifically to play against Tyranids.

I played against Blood Angels this time. My opponent had an assault-cannon Razorback, a Vindicator, a blood talon Furioso, two ten-strong Tactical squads with flamers and plasma cannons, a Devastator squad with heavy bolters and missile launchers, and an Epistolary.

Mission - The Relic
Warlord Traits - We both had useless ones (oh, I have Move Though Cover in a radius, that's cool, my entire army already has it....).

The Game - I deployed first, night fighting was in play and I made sure to use cover - I always make sure to expect the worst, namely my opponent seizing the initiative. Luckily, my timidity was justified as they did just that. The result of their shooting was a wound on my Trygon. On my first turn, I took a hull point off of the Furioso with the Flyrant hitting its' side armour, whilst I spawned a single unit of Termagants. My Trygon and a Tervigon had Feel No Pain on them. His second turn was more productive, taking two more wounds off of the Trygon, and doing a wound on the Flyrant. Some Termagants died. My turn, my Flyrant moved in-field and shot the rear armour of the Furioso, wrecking it and attaining First Blood. One of my Tervigons' and a Termagant brood charged and wiped out a Tactical Squad. The Trygon charged and wiped out the Devastators, suffering two wounds in the process. I also grabbed the Relic with a small five-strong Termagant brood.

He unsuccessfully shot at the Trygon, failing to kill it. One Tervigon and a squad of Termagants surrounded and destroyed the Vindicator. The Hive Tyrant glanced and penetrated the Razorback, stunning it. The Trygon charged and managed to kill only one Tactical Marine before dying, due largely to the Epistolary casting the 4+ invulnerable save Divination power on the squad. He pulled a risky maneuver - and a very lucky one - by charging into a Tervigon I had failed to adequately bubble-wrap, challenging it with the Epistolary (who had a force stave), causing two wounds which I failed an armour save and passing his force weapon test on 3D6. :( Not liked it matter, I had a lone Termagant holding the Relic flanked by a Tervigon and another 10 Termagants. My Hive Tyrant shot at and proceeded to charge the Tactical Squad/Epistolary in conjunction with two broods of Termagants. Having Enfeebled the unit, and also lacking an invulnerable save, I chose not to Smash and simply killed the Epistolary before he could strike. My opponent called it after that.
The game ends, I have First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Line Breaker, whilst also holding the Relic, for a 6 victory points to 0 victory.

TLDR; Victory for the Tyranids yet again! This was a more challenging game, though it was hardly an example of the kind of army list that would really do damage to my Tyranids. I learned/knew that my army doesn't give a rats about blast weapons, despite being a pseudo-horde army. Furious Charge makes the Termagants a lot better in combat when paired with Toxin Sacs. The Crushing Claws also make a big difference for winning combat. I learned not to have my Hive Tyrant switch to Glide and charge unless supported by other elements. I also need the Hive Guard a lot more than I initially thought they would; I spent the early turns worrying about the Furioso as it would almost definitely blend through entire Termagant broods, my Tervigons and even my Trygon in short order. The Hive Tyrant wrecked it before it could do anything, as I suspected would happen, but it was still a bit worrying and forced me to play a bit more defensively with one of the Tervigons' and its babies. I feel the second Hive Tyrant will make a big difference to the army at 1500, especially once I have gotten more Hive Guard. Funnily enough though, two-three vehicles is about the most I expect to see in my store. It isn't at all uncommon to see only one or two in a 1500 point game. In that sense, the Trygon is still a very useful stand-in - it did its job today by drawing the firepower of a Tactical Squad, a Devastator squad and a Razorback until it died (in combat).

Overall, I am slowly picking the army up. 1500 points will be the real test. The most important thing is that I am having a lot of fun, and it is most definitely a huge breath of fresh air to not be using any vehicles whatsoever, as it presents an entirely different line of thinking. Mostly, my Termagants and Tervigons are just running up the field to get close as quickly as possible, whilst my Hive Tyrant (and eventually, Tyrants and Hive Guard) provide fire support and neutralize vehicles or other worrisome units.

On that note, I am settled on that double Flyrant list from earlier. Adding on to that army list, I can do this for 1750 points;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Biovores (2) - 90

I found after adding the Doom back in, as well as Adrenal Glands on the Tervigons, I only had 90 points to spare. There wasn't really much else to put it, so I had the idea of throwing in a pair of Biovores - they should work fine by themselves, providing some decent fire suppression. They will be very useful for sniping out special weapons, and in a sense will work well with the Hive Guard - Hive Guard pop transports, Biovores kill the plasma gunners inside. That is the general idea in any case. Another option, however, would be to drop Adrenal Glands on one of the Tervigons and instead take two more Hive Guard. I feel this may be a preferable option, as not only would it save me $138, but my army list tends not to worry about infantry anyway - though sniping out special weapons and sergeants can effectively render them moot against my monstrous creatures. More ranged anti-tank would be good. I modeled one of my Tervigons with the Tyrannofex head for this very reason; after all, it isn't like I am relying on the Adrenal Glands. The Toxin Sacs are far more important.

Tynskel

12-28-2012, 04:08 PM

I recommend pinning. That way you don't need to use the support. if you use 2 pins you can make a joint that is incredibly strong, and will support itself while glue is drying.

Hmmmm... with three tervigons, you are going to need more models.
If you drop a tervigon, you could get a Warrior Squad with bone n' lash. keep devourers. Maybe an upgrade. Warriors can be a great counter charge unit, especially with those lash whips tying up squads. This will allow your tervigons and termagants to crush the elements that the warriors don't kill.

I wouldn't chop up your wins completely to skill, though. Your list at 500 and 1000 can be overwhelming for most armies. However, an army with flyer protection and moderate firepower can rip through your list.

My typical BA 1000 point list:

HQ 100
100 Librarian Costas
-Codicer, Force Staff, Blood Lance, Unleashed Rage

ELITES 175
50 Shaharrim
–Priest
125 Champion Lucius
–Furioso, Meltagun, 1 Bloodfist, Frag Cannon

TROOPS 290
120 Assault Squad Luna
–5 Man Assault Squad, Flamer, Power Sword
15 Dedicated Transport: Rhino
135 Assault Sqaud Sol
–5 Man Assault Squad, Powerfist, Meltagun
20 Dedicated Transport: Razorback,Twin-Hv Bolters

FAST ATTACK 145
Invictus
–Baal Predator, Hv Bolters Sponsons

Hv SUPPORT 290
135 Dominator
–Predator Destructor, Sponson Lascannons
155 Vallus
–Vindicator, Siege Shield

In your list, the real threat is the Tyrant, but the Baal and Destructor Predators can do a number on a flying Tyrant. The army does quite well supporting each other. Furthermore, fast vehicles make them pretty maneuverable. Granted, I have been playing Tyranids for years, and blood angels for almost as long, too. So, I know both armies quite well. Funny, though, I don't use jump troops to often in BA. Once I get to 1500 points, I typically field a Codex army as opposed to massed jump infantry. I have more fun with Drop Pods.

Tynskel

12-28-2012, 05:11 PM

Another 1000 point BA list I like to use:
This is "my flyer is better than your flyer" list. And, it is. Most 1000 point lists only have ~1 flyer, and the Stormraven usually will trounce that flyer (firing a twin-lascannon, 2 blood strike missiles, and a typhoon launcher usually ends any anti-flyer threat). I put the Tactical Squad, Priest, Reclusiarch and Dreadnought in the flyer. Usually, I have the flyer zoom, and drop the units off without scattering due to the Locator Beacon. If I need the extra squad, I'll combat squad the Tactical Marines, so two drops or one, all depending on the situation. The whirlwind is for 'shanitz and giggles'. The Blood Angels Whirlwind is particularly nasty because of being Fast. Tank Shocking a unit and then firing ordnance at something 48" away is hilarious to me.

HQ 145
Master Corvus
–Reclusiarch, Powerfist

ELITES 195
60 Shaharrim
–Priest, Combi-Melta
135 Callistar the Pure
–Furioso, Blood Talons, Hv Flamer

TROOPS 330
210 Tactical Squad Sol
–10 Marines, Powerfist, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Multi-Melta
120 Assault Squad Throne
–5 Marines, Power Sword, Flamer

Hv SUPPORT 330
240 Burning Star
–Stormraven, Locator Beacon, Twin-Linked Lascannons, Typhoon Launchers
90 Lazarus
–Whirlwind

Learn2Eel

12-29-2012, 12:18 AM

Thanks for the tip. My brother suggested the same thing, though I've found that two of my Tervigons have stuck to their bases just fine. Only one has come off, though it is a very easy fix as it just sits on its base anyway.

Not sure what you mean by more models. I spawn an average of 60 Termagants a game, if you mean I need more Termagants for spawning purposes than yeah I agree. I guess I am just going to use 60 for the time being until I can get some other elements I need - the second Flyrant and the Hive Guard are at the top of my list now.

To be honest, I prefer Raveners over Warriors. I see Warriors as a kind of utility unit that provides Synapse - they are good in a lot of roles, though combat and Synapse are their best uses I feel. However, aside from combat (except against vehicles) and shooting, the Tervigon performs much better in other ways, and is also more durable per-point spent. That's just me though - I would take Warriors for what they do for the rest of my army, and I just personally feel the Tervigons perform the roles my Warriors would more effectively. That is probably just down to my meta though.

Oh, I'm not chalking it up to skill, believe me. I am very much getting the hang of using Tyranids - deployment and movement are my main issues at the moment. I am still getting to grips with the fact that nothing in my army can be "one-shotted" on the first turn, at least, not in the way tanks can. I also have to keep in mind that trying to hide the Tervigons for a cover save on turn one can instead be accomplished simply by bubble-wrapping them with Termagants, whom provide partial obscuration and thus a 5+ cover save. Using the flying Hive Tyrant is interesting, but I will probably get the hang of it better once I have a pair of them.

The real threat is not the Hive Tyrant actually. It hasn't done anywhere near as much damage as the Tervigons and Termagants have. For a mech army, yes, I grant you that, but for non-mech armies, they should be far more worried about the other stuff. If I replace the Trygon with Hive Guard too (as all of my army lists eventually will), then the Hive Tyrant all of a sudden doesn't become an easy target in terms of neutralizing my anti-tank.

On the subject of Raveners, how do you feel they perform in 6th? Gargoyles are obviously good but I feel Raveners hit harder and are much faster, and thus are more ideal for taking out Devastator squads and their ilk - the kind of units that my Tyranids do worry about. They are ideal for where I play due to playing on a 4x4. Nothing says "hello!" like a 12" move ignoring difficult and dangerous terrain, then a 2D6" charge range re-rolling one or both of the dice - especially if they 'Feed'. The great thing is, again, due to having so many huge and obvious targets in my army, my opponent is silly to shoot at them and not at the Tervigons/Hive Tyrants/etc, but they are also committing suicide by not getting rid of them and thus leaving any unit backfield or midfield units open to a devastating charge. Assuming 'Feed' and an average Overwatch, 4 Raveners with dual talons will get about 21 hits, 10-11 wounds and about three-four dead Tactical Marines before they strike. Afterwards, they hit back, maybe doing a wound or two. Not bad. Then that unit is tied up and will eventually be ripped apart by the Raveners. Not too bad for a 120 point unit. They are excellent for going straight for enemy Devastator equivalents, and either forcing the Devastators/nearby units to focus fire on them or risk being mauled in combat. Either way, I win.

I must ask though - should I consider any of the upgrades or just leave them as is? I am taking them as harassment units, something which they do very well without any upgrades. They will beat your average 10-strong Tactical squad in combat, and are thus quite capable of taking out backfield support units. Rending Claws would be good, although it would jack the price up by about 20-25 points per unit. It isn't like I would charge them into Terminators anyway - I have Termagants and shooting for that.

Learn2Eel

12-29-2012, 12:40 AM

I decided at 1750 I would rather have the two extra Hive Guard than the two Biovores - whilst special weapon/character sniping is great, generally my army has more than enough anti-infantry firepower. Anti-tank is my real weakness, so having six Hive Guard in two broods of three and two Flying Dakkarants should alleviate that issue (each of those four units wrecks an AV11 vehicle on average!). I just drop Adrenals on one Tervigon. At 2000 points, I could quite feasibly make use of the double force organization chart - the army would already be legal for that - but I thought I would rather add in two units of four Raveners and Adrenals on that third Tervigon. The Raveners essentially are the ground counter-parts to the Hive Tyrants - hopping from cover to cover, except when charging. Combined with the Doom, I have a lot of nasty backfield fast-moving/deep-striking threats, in addition to the onrushing swarm.

Tynskel

12-29-2012, 04:48 PM

Raveners are a good choice for the army you have. Tyranids are really about synergies, because there are so few units that by themselves work well. It is about force multipliers and target saturation when it comes to bugs.

yeah, I meant physical termagant models, because there should be no reason to not spawn except if you are trying to keep kill points down... even then, more usually means less bad guys!

Learn2Eel

12-29-2012, 05:08 PM

I definitely agree. I felt Gargoyles would have been another great choice - I could feasibly fit in 30 with toxin sacs and still have 40 points left over in a 2000 point army list, taking an additional four and giving Adrenal Glands to the third Tervigon. I weigh it up like - 8 Raveners in two broods of 4 or 34 Gargoyles in two broods of 17. Personally, I went with the Raveners, mostly for the models and also because I will already have enough little bugs crowding in my cases. Whilst the Gargoyles would probably be the more obvious choice for some, they are a bit of a different unit to Raveners - Gargoyles have better synergy with the Hive Tyrant, moving at largely the same speed, giving it mobile cover and also being monstrous creature and infantry hunters. Raveners I see as a faster unit that demands more than mere token bolters to kill off - hunting down Devastators and, in reality, any Tactical Squad equivalent that is not very good in combat but can provide a lot of firepower. To be quite honest, the more I think about it, the more I can see why people prefer Gargoyles. After all, would they really be the target of blast weapons when there are streaming hordes of Termagants? The fact that the Hive Tyrant can't be hit by blasts when swooping may also play on the opponent - they may not think to shoot at the surrounding Gargoyles.

Yeah, I thought that was what you meant. Well, the good thing is that I don't have to spawn each turn, meaning that I won't be risking rolling a double without spawning any models. At least this way I can essentially replace my dead, essentially laughing at anyone that shoots at the Termagants. I guess that is probably why Tervigons and Termagants make such brutal combinations - when paired with the right upgrades, Termagants become amazing combat units for their cost, namely because they will tarpit and likely kill many monstrous creatures in the game. Killing the Tervigons is obvious, but not so much when there are other things to consider. I think having a fully-painted army also helps for target saturation - when everything is painted and looks scary, people will be forced into rash decisions. Playing Tyranids is in a way a psychological attack on your opponent if you do it right - too many targets, not enough time. High-level players or those that understand Tyranids will obviously see through this though. That is the other good thing - Tyranids are so rare in any store I've been to that most people simply aren't prepared to deal with them.

rtmaitreya

12-30-2012, 06:14 PM

I definitely agree. I felt Gargoyles would have been another great choice - I could feasibly fit in 30 with toxin sacs and still have 40 points left over in a 2000 point army list, .... That is the other good thing - Tyranids are so rare in any store I've been to that most people simply aren't prepared to deal with them.

You will find Gargoyles are outstanding because of their high threat potential. They must be shot almost immediately, or they can wreck plans starting turn 2. You have scads of anti-infantry already, which is why I recommend going for adrenal instead of poison. Besides, gargoyles already have a built in "poison lite" against monstrous foes and bikers. You need that S4 on the charge to rack up glances on vehicles.

You do need fast synapse to keep up. They will outstrip your ability to keep them in line pretty quickly. You also will find yourself using them along flanks rather than down the middle eating up firepower from all sides. I've found the venomthrope is their best friend to make sure they get to the front line with 10+ still alive, which is a bare minimum for effectiveness (12 charging gets 2.5 glances or kills 2+3 MEQs, so 10 is 2 and 4, respectively).

The other thing people never talk about is having your original large gant squads contain two or three flamer template dealies. They are S2 vs. Strength of target, which is terrible against MEQ but great against any horde. The biggest value is the pin check, which allows you to strike first(ish) when rolling through cover. It's a cheap threat to potentially cause incoming chargers extra risk as well. If you pin on your stand and shoot, the charge fails. 6 auto hits gives a small chance at this free pin check. I have yet to pull this off, but I'm working on it. Math says it should happen every few battles, and a critical failed charge can swing the game, as we all know.

RTM

Tynskel

12-30-2012, 10:29 PM

yes. I agree, the Strangleweb is an awesome weapon that no one uses.

Learn2Eel

12-31-2012, 09:08 PM

Still working on stuff....I might be reconsidering taking a third Tervigon at 1500 points. I will see how it goes for a while though, of course. Just playing around in smaller games where only one or two are present has been amazing - they are absolutely devastating when paired with Termagants. For my meta, the triple-Tervigon list is probably the best, but I'll definitely look at other options as I expand the horde.

Some in particular I have actually been looking at more keenly - Warriors, Shrikes and Raveners. The aesthetics are definitely pleasing. I've already touched on Raveners, and Shrikes are obviously devastating if used correctly (and have other targets drawing fire off of them). Warriors though might actually be growing on me. For 40 points, I can get a model with a darn good stat-line, a S5 AP5 gun and Rending attacks. Not bad. Whilst I still prefer Tervigons for my army list, Warriors most certainly are good value, especially with a Prime - I could lose out on the Flyrants and instead take more firepower elsewhere, i.e. more Hive Guard and Raveners. The general lack of S8 weaponry now is a big bonus.

Doing the numbers, a squad of 5 with Deathspitters and Rending Claws absolutely reams Tactical Squads of an equivalent cost once they get in range to both shoot and charge. Also, with the wound-allocation rules, it is far too easy to just switch them around. As an example (and it is kind of applicable given Warriors are not always the most obvious target), I had a Warrior squad assumed to shoot and then charge a Tactical squad. It averages 2 dead Marines in shooting, and then four dead in combat - with Overwatch and close combat, the Marines only did two wounds to the Warriors - meaning one is down to one wound but all are alive. After that, it only takes a turn or two for the Warriors to wipe them out. I think the trick with them is to have other units that would be more obvious targets for the firepower Warriors are afraid of. Come to think of it, they would wipe out a similarly costed Assault Squad too. The Assault squad does two wounds, the Warriors again do six in the turn they charge (that includes the two from shooting).

As for HQs, I think I'll stick by the Flyrants, as their versatility and mobility is just priceless. However, there's no doubt the Swarmlord with one Tyrant Guard would be a lot cheaper and do some things quite a bit better (and others a lot worse). Would give me room to take more Hive Guard though and thus mitigate the loss of the Flyrants.

Learn2Eel

01-01-2013, 03:07 AM

Hey guys, was hoping to get some opinions on this matter.

Now, I've already got a Winged Hive Tyrant, three Tervigons, thirty Termagants (with thirty more arriving tomorrow), a Trygon and the Doom of Malan'tai. The 'league' I am playing in starts tomorrow, and I'm a bit undecided with what to do at 1500 points (if I choose to play at that points level until I get more stuff). Whilst I have got the core army list set down, I end up with 100 points left over to put towards upgrades. Before that, I'll show you what I have;

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai w/ mycetic spore - 130

Troops
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands - 220
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands - 220
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs, adrenal glands - 220
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200

I've come up with some options;

a) Give the Hive Tyrant Old Adversary or Hive Commander, then give the Trygon the Prime, Toxin Sacs and Regeneration upgrades.
b) Give all three Tervigons Regeneration, then give the Trygon Toxin Sacs.

Obviously I'm scraping the bottle of the barrel, but there's not really much else I could do. Mind you, in my meta, giving Regeneration to all three Tervigons (on top of them having Catalyst) would just make my opponents pull their hair out.
Oh, and as for the mycetic spore, I'll leave that up to my LGS owner I guess. If he doesn't give me something to use or doesn't approve me using something as counts as, well I guess that is another 130 points to spend on (unnecessary) upgrades.

The alternative is that I could just play 1000 point or 500 point games I guess.
Thanks for any input.

Tynskel

01-01-2013, 11:48 AM

A prime is a seriously wicked character killer, and is a great addition to a warrior squad. Give him a Lashwhip and bonesword, toxin sacs, and adrenal glands, and he's great for calling out those squad leaders with powerfists (or mauls, etc.) that will kill your warriors. Issue a challenge, and watch him/her/it go to town.

Learn2Eel

01-01-2013, 03:21 PM

Yeah, I remember coming up with a 100 point one that had twin boneswords and toxin sacs. They wreck face.

I'm pretty sure I haven't posted this alternative army list before, and I was called an "extremely dirty man" - as far as people I usually play against dealing with it, remembering I also play on smaller boards - so I'll just leave it here;

1500
HQ
The Swarmlord w/ Tyrant Guard - 340
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, adrenal glands, toxin sacs - 220

Troops
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs - 210
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs - 210
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210
Trygon w/ toxin sacs - 210

Make the Tervigon the Warlord to not only surprise people but keep the victory point relatively safe. Send the Swarmlord with quadruple Biomancy powers right where I need him, both for combat and support (i.e. send him at enemy deathstars). Have each Trygon as a flanking unit backed by a Tervigon and Termagants. Have the HQ Tervigon following the Swarmlord. The entire army runs on Turn 1. A fun army in general, a brutal army where I play though. Even focus-firing, with the addition of cover and Catalyst (if I go first) it is unlikely my opponents will be able to drop even one beast on turn one. Also, good luck trying to tarpit any of the three "big-hitters" when they are backed by Termagants (though I would of course make sure the speed of the Trygons' isn't compromised).
If all goes to plan (which is likely), my opponent will be contending with two Trygons with Feel No Pain, the Warlord Tervigon with Feel No Pain, and the Swarmlord with Iron Arm and Endurance.

The awesome thing is that the only models I don't have for the army list are the Swarmlord, a Tyrant Guard and one Trygon. After today, I'll have 40 Termagants available for spawning purposes.

On an altogether separate note, I am actually not as worried about Jaws as many others would be. Deny the Witch saves on a 5+, then failing on a 1 or 2 - or better if the Tervigon has Warp Speed. Not to mention I would make sure to either tarpit the caster as quickly as possible or get Shadow in the Warp coverage up very quickly. I also would make sure not to line up my models for effective Jaws-killing.

Anakzar

01-01-2013, 07:43 PM

If you pin on your stand and shoot, the charge fails. 6 auto hits gives a small chance at this free pin check. I have yet to pull this off, but I'm working on it. Math says it should happen every few battles, and a critical failed charge can swing the game, as we all know.

RTM

You can't pin on overwatch shots... its there in bold letters (overwatch cannot causeMorale checks or Pinning tests. Page 21) the strangleweb is too weak it should be str 3... but I guess it could do something against str3 horde types.

Tynskel

01-01-2013, 09:07 PM

I disagree that the strangleweb is weak.
It is a cheap upgrade for the unit, hits multiple opponents, and causes pinning. What's not to like about it?

Learn2Eel

01-02-2013, 12:51 AM

Personally I won't bother with any upgrades on my Termagants, I am only using them for spawning purposes and to make Tervigons' troops. Outside of that, I find their basic load-out to be more than adequate. I had two free broods of about 6-9 take two wounds off of Marneus Calgar today, and the other day they killed a bunch of Terminators. That doesn't even begin to cover how good they are in combat.

Anyway, as my signature suggests, had my fifth game and fifth victory. This was my first 1500 point game, and also the start of the 'Black Crusade' league going on.
I was playing against Ultramarines - Marneus Calgar, two 5-man Tactical Squads, each with a plasma gun and a power sword/plasma pistol Sergeant, a Rhino with a Hunter Killer missile, a Predator Annihilator, a standard Land Raider, a Whirlwind, two Dreadnoughts - one with a multi-melta and the other with a twin-linked lascannon, and 5 standard Terminators. Not a great list but a decent starting point for my first game.

I used the army list from earlier, giving Regeneration to each Tervigon and Toxin Sacs to the Trygon.

Mission - Big Guns Never Tire (5 Objectives)
Warlord Traits - I have no idea what he had, but I had the Command one where enemy units use their lowest leadership instead of the highest (which paired nicely with Mr. Doom).

The Game - He had Turn 1, no night fighting. His Orbital Bombardment scattered and killed one Termagant. His Whirlwind killed two Termagants after scattering. He put a wound on the Trygon and on one Tervigon. On my turn, I flew up with the Hive Tyrant (hid on first turn) and promptly wrecked the Rhino, gaining First Blood. The Hive Tyrant had Iron Arm and Enfeeble. One Tervigon pooped out on turn 1, but spawned 12. The other two spawned about 6-9 each. After that, I couldn't spawn anymore without taking casualties despite having 60 Termagants! I got Feel No Pain on the Tyrant, the Trygon and one Tervigon - everything ran, except the Tyrant obviously. I tarpitted one Dreadnought with a free 9-strong brood - hilarious, to say the least. On his turn, he did two more wounds to that Tervigon (which I later regenerated one), one wound to a Tervigon and killed a bunch of Termagants. He shot a lot of stuff at the Hive Tyrant, doing one wound but failing to ground it - he had jumped his Terminators out hoping to charge it once it fell. My turn, spawn some more, cast powers, etc.

The Doom comes down next to the Terminators and a Tactical Squad but does nothing. The Hive Tyrant wrecks the Whirlwind with the brain-leech devourers. Another Termagant brood tarpits the other Dreadnought, whilst the previous one is destroyed by a Tervigon. The Predator is charged by a hungry horde, but they fail to do any damage. The Trygon and a Termagant brood charge into the Terminators, killing a few, and whom do little damage back. Marneus Calgar charges into the Tervigon that blew up the Dreadnought, and aided by combined shooting, kills it easily. The resulting shock wave kills 8 Termagants combined from 2 broods. The rest of his shooting does little - at the start of his shooting phase, as his units were still near the Doom (he didn't know its rules) it killed three Tactical squad members and a Terminator. He tries to instant-kill it but fails. His Terminators die and my stuff consolidates out of combat. After doing three wounds to Calgar from combined shooting, destroying the Land Raider with the Doom (who leeched the rest of the Tactical Squad) and the Trygon, he conceded. I had charged a Tervigon into both the remaining Dreadnought and the Predator, and his remaining Tactical Squad was about to be charged by 12 Termagants. Calgar was also locked in combat.
I was holding three objectives - the Trygon, a Tervigon and a Termagant brood. I had First Blood and Linebreaker. He was holding one objective. I also killed two heavy support choices, for a total of 13 victory points to 3.

A crowd gathered around the game quite often to just watch the carnage - Tyranids are very much an unknown quantity where I play. And lucky for me, almost no-one knows what the Doom does even after that game! There are few things I probably would have done differently - i.e. bubble-wrapping the Tervigon more effectively so that Marneus couldn't charge and kill it. Overall though, I was happy for my first 1500 point outing.

Learn2Eel

01-03-2013, 06:23 PM

Had two more wins yesterday, though this time I had to run the Doom up field due to not having an acceptable Mycetic Spore stand-in - which was fair enough. The spare points went to making the Trygon a Prime.

I played against Space Wolves and Grey Knights, and I won't write two more lackadaisical battle reports for them - I'll only say that like every other game I've played with the 'Nids, it has been a complete massacre for my opponent. The only real notes I have are that the Hive Tyrant is truly coming in to his prime, I still haven't had a chance to use Cataclysm on the Doom, and that even despite everyone in the league giving each other advice on how to beat my army (i.e. kill the Tervigons) they still struggle to even kill one - unless the game is already over and I don't really care what happens. It seems that most people come up with what they believe are good theories on how to beat me, but can't quite put it into practice once they see it on the board.

It is getting annoying actually. My army isn't that hardcore, any decent player would stand a great chance against it. But even despite being a newbie with the army, everyone seems to think giving advice to my opponents when both writing their army lists and actually playing the game is a way to "balance it out". I've already seen quite a few people try to specifically tailor their armies to beat mine, and will do it more and more. Not only is that not in the spirit of the game, but it is kind of unfair on me as I don't have the models to mix things up once they've gotten up hard-counters to elements of my army. I can't switch to faster armies with different kinds of threats, such as adding in a mix of Ymgarls, Raveners, Gargoyles, etc. The good thing is, I don't have to play games against people who do that if I don't want to. After all - I'm not tailoring my army list to anyone else. Still, I think I am starting to really want that kind of challenge - or any kind of challenge, really. I should not be steam-rolling people that easily.

I'm not really complaining though, more-so just annoyed. The reality is, even with list tailoring, most still don't have the resources to beat that list, which is quite sad really. Or, if they do, they simply get fazed by sheer target saturation and make a lot of mistakes.
I am (again sadly) still waiting for a proper challenge to the army - I am only half learning at the moment, which sucks as the best way to learn is to lose or at least struggle and adapt. I thought one of the two I faced yesterday would provide it (particularly the latter army), but nope. When I have tabled or forced my opponent to concede six times out of only seven games (most by the end of turn four) and I still only have the most basic grasp of how to play the army, something is wrong.

Enough of me being a grumpy little sook though, I've ordered both a Mycetic Spore and a second Hive Tyrant :D Soon I'll be able to do my dual-Flyrant list, and all shall be well once more. Though I still won't have any Hive Guard for at least three months at this rate :( The good thing is, the Trygon has been doing its job - I make sure to force my opponent's valuable long-range shooting (Devastators and the like) to either deal with the Trygon (or a horde of hungry Termagants) by turn two or face getting ripped apart. The good thing for me is that this is the first army I've used where going second is not crippling at all for the most part - it depends on the army I am facing of course. Most don't have the firepower to really worry me though, so that is good.

Aegwymourn

01-03-2013, 08:48 PM

Learn2Eel

01-03-2013, 09:04 PM

Not to downplay your opponents but if the GK and Space Wolf lists are as lackluster as the regular Space Marine opponent that is a big part of why you are doing well. You have a well designed TAC list. That space marine list is just bad. Also you cannot have 5 man tac squads with special weapons.

Oh I agree. Again, I'm not bigging up the wins, more so just wishing I was getting more of a challenge. With the usual armies I play though, I wouldn't be winning all my games that easily. It's definitely a very good army list. That was only my first game against that Space Marine player by the way, his army list is one of worst I've played against for sure.

Learn2Eel

01-04-2013, 05:52 AM

Huh, just realised I've actually tabled/forced my opponent to concede in every game I played, not just six of them. Not really the record I want....

Tynskel

01-04-2013, 09:18 AM

Heavy Bolter Devastators. 2 Whirlwinds. Simple Heavy Support, but great for swarms.

Then Heavy Hitter Squads. Terminators are my choice, for this situation. You get 10 Thunder Hammer Terminators lead by a chaplain. If you are playing blood angels, throw a priest in there and a couple pairs of lightning claws.

Learn2Eel

01-04-2013, 09:42 AM

Good against Swarms, ok against monstrous creatures. When you consider each Flyrant will wreck a Whirlwind on average - likely on turn 1 - and the Devaststors can only do one wound a turn (excluding Feel No Pain and the like) on a monster it wouldn't faze me too much.

I actually find my army would deal with TH/SS Terminators really well, particularly if one of the Hive Tyrants rolls Enfeeble and gets it off. A lot of people underestimate what that many shots can do - I've learned that I have enough shooting that I don't need AP3-2 shooting. Without Enfeeble, every 24 Termagants averages 1 kill (that goes up to about 2 with Enfeeble), each Hive Tyrant kills one or two, then each Tervigon kills about 1 with a decent hit. Then what is left after harassing them early on once they get closer can be easily tar pitted. Bang, 500+ point death star successfully taken out :)

Not saying it is a perfect plan. But I guess it goes to show my army can effectively handle almost any situation. Not to discredit what you posted - it helps me to understand the limitations and possibilities of the army.

Tynskel

01-04-2013, 01:33 PM

You miss the point. The devastators are NOT for the monsterous creatures. Neither are the whirlwinds. They kill gribblies, and they kill them fast.

TH/SS terminators can handle those big things. You are also forgetting: 10 TH/SS Terminators + priest + chaplain + 2 whirlwinds + devastators is less than 1000 points. I still have 500 points to flush out an army.

the other option is 2 thunderfire cannons + heavy bolter devastators (or missile devastators).

I know what kills bugs.
I play bugs and space marines/blood angels. That 1000 points there will do a number on any swarm. It is just about making sure you have enough anti-tank after that, which isn't too hard.

The real trick to beating bugs is reducing the gribblies. The big monsters get their hitting power when they strike together, or when they hit with gribblies. By removing the gribblies, you can just bring the monsters down, one at a time (spreading fire out as they get closer). Wounded monsterous are precariously close to death if they enter combat with 1-2 wounds.

Although, you did remind me that taking a Libby in terminator armor is probably a good idea to shut down psychic powers.

You should face off against something like this. You'll notice that you'll need some hive guard.

Learn2Eel

01-04-2013, 06:40 PM

I'm not missing the point dude, I can see what the Whirlwinds and Devastators are for. And my point is, with two flying Hive Tyrants, I can quite easily neutralize them. Not to mention that I can respawn a lot of my gribblies - they don't exactly stay dead.

Of course they can. But that assumes that you can take out most of my hordes, which is no guarantee as my Tyrants have an effective 54" range with their Devourers on the first turn - given that 1000 points of your army is invested in the Whirlwinds, the Devastators and the Terminator unit, you likely won't have enough to kill them after they've destroyed your Whirlwinds - meaning your Devastators and any other unit I need neutralized would be next. Then there are things such as psychic powers to consider, which could really mess up trying to kill the Hive Tyrants.

EDIT: Actually, your Thunderfire Cannons would worry me less. The reason being, your Techmarine would be easier to kill than the Whirlwinds for my Hive Tyrants - getting cover saves on your Whirlwinds means I shouldn't destroy them on turn 1. Your Techmarine has 2+ armour, but when he takes an average seven or eight wounds, he isn't going to survive. Missile Devastators obviously would worry my monsters more.

I'm not saying you don't. But I am saying, I know how to counter that army. You won't be able to hide those Whirlwinds from me - even if you get cover for them on the first turn, I will at least get two glances/one glance and one pen through. If I have first turn, you are only going to get one round of shooting out of them. And that 1000 points may do a number on my swarm, but I can do the smart thing and not spawn just for you to get more kills on the first turn whilst the Whirlwinds are alive - I don't need to spawn remember, and can instead choose to spawn on the second turn after I've destroyed the Whirlwinds. Then your Heavy Bolter squad will on average kill about 6-7 Termagants, assuming no cover.

Obviously, but it doesn't necessarily work if I play my cards right with my Tervigons. Considering each spawns 20 on average, I can wait for you to kill my first bunch, then spawn more once the Whirlwinds are gone (turn 2 more than likely).
I've learned that pretty quickly, they work well in conjunction. But again, I think you are the missing the point that I spawn an average of 60 more and you are likely only going to kill the first 30 with your Heavy Support until they die.

For the Terminator unit, yes. Though it would depend on what Mastery Level he is, how good the buff would be. An Epistolary would mean you Deny on a 4+ though it would mean even more points are invested in that unit. Remember though, almost all of my psychic powers are Blessings - unless I get Enfeeble or Life Leech, you won't be Denying my powers, whereas once you get within 12" of five of my units, you take yours on 3D6, meaning you will only pass psychic tests half of the time.

I would like to. It would be interesting, and it would force me to think more intelligently about how I should use my Termagants and when I should spawn. Again though, your Whirlwinds will more than likely be getting only two shots at best - and if you are using cover to get a save from the Tyrants, then you run the risk of scattering off more anyway. Whittling your death star down wouldn't be as hard as you might think. With the remaining 500 points, you will have to take at least two Tactical Squad/two Scout Squads, or for Blood Angels, two Assault Squads. A full squad of each will run you around 200 points per squad, leaving you little to do elsewhere. That is of course assuming you realized that 5/6 games would make it really easy for me to just grab the objectives and kill your Troops after destroying the Whirlwinds/Devastators if you don't invest much into them. Your death star is slow, and I can quite easily deploy to get around it and throw only sacrificial units in your path whilst whittling you down each turn - likely one or two dead Terminators per turn once you get close. If I actually charge Termagants into you, I can do some damage there as well, and depending on the size of the squad, there's no guarantee you will wipe them out based on how many I have killed, meaning you kill them in your turn and thus leave me free to do the same thing again.

You see what I mean mate? My army can appropriately deal with that army list, I would just need to raise my game quite a bit and think more thoroughly. My Hive Tyrants can quite easily neutralize your Whirlwinds/Devastators, and if you shoot at the Hive Tyrants, you are leaving the Tervigons to spawn more and more. As an aside, I don't think I would need Hive Guard actually, at least not against this army list. Remember, each Hive Tyrant averages three hull points against AV11. Even if you have cover, my 54" effective range on turn 1 means you aren't going to be able to really hide from them, not to mention turn 2 will be bad for them unless you somehow kill both Tyrants. If I have Hive Guard instead of the Trygon, they would be there to get rid of any other vehicles you would have - and given your army list doesn't have any Troops yet, I would wager there will only be one or two transports, maybe Razorbacks. And even then, if they are better targets for me on Turn 1 than the Whirlwinds as far as my Hive Tyrants are concerned, they'll be dead first turn and the Whirlwinds will die on turn 2. Mind you, the four Hive Guard would be good for at least killing averaging two dead Terminators over three turns, which given their 24" range isn't great. The Trygon would be more useful, as even with TH/SS it will still kill at least one Terminator in combat each turn - and I would make sure to charge it with other elements, such as Termagants, so you are forced to split your attacks and thus reduce the damage dealt to the Trygon - the Termagants on the charge can do quite a bit of damage too. Not to mention Feel No Pain would reduce the amount of wounds you can do to it.

Learn2Eel

01-04-2013, 07:31 PM

By the way, please don't take me for discounting what your army would do to mine. Again, I am still working out how this army list functions and just how versatile it is. Your army would most definitely be a challenge, no doubt about that.

Tynskel

01-05-2013, 12:00 AM

Learn2Eel

01-05-2013, 01:03 AM

zzzZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzz

You clearly haven't actually faced these things.
Deny the witch is not the only way to deny psychic powers. Nor is the possibility that your tyrants get to shoot the whirlwinds first.

I don't need to shoot at your Hive Tyrants. There are plenty of units in the BA to deal with tyrants: Stormravens, ageis with AA gun. 1 Stormraven, in one turn, has a very high probability of downing a tyrant. I could go with 2. Just shoot you out of the sky, then strafe and drop of squads as needed.

I think you are over confident in your list, and have yet to fight an army that will make a mockery of your limited extent and use of the codex. If you were to run into necrons with a fair amount of air support (I am not talking about 'cron-air', but 3 flyers), your tyrants would be in trouble.

Don't get me wrong, there are elements of your list that are good. I just believe that you think your army is too good, when, realistically, you do not have the firepower to deal with real threats. Simple things, like Vendettas with vet squads (and a command squad of communication) can do a number on your list.

if you dropped one tervigon, and combined one of the termagant squads, you could take a force multiplier and make your list better. Right now, you are snuffing too much tervigon dust, and think that having 3 is the way to go. Come down from the high, man!

Actually, yes I have. What makes you think I haven't? I faced a Whirlwind the other day, and I have before. It fires either a S5 AP4 large blast or a S4 AP5 ignores cover large blast, both of which are barrage. The latter, obviously, is very good at killing my 'gaunts (and the former is as well, truth be told). But just because it has that weapon does not make it the perfect counter - it needs 3s to kill, and still needs to hit. If it is being used without LoS, it can scatter quite a bit. It is not guaranteed to make my life miserable. I have also faced off against Heavy Bolter armed Devastators before - and having used simple mathematics, they average about six or seven dead Termagants a turn (less if they have cover). I know what they do.

EDIT: I cut out a whole lot of stuff to essentially say this - I think you took my post way out of context. I was commenting on the army list you specifically posted. I don't know where you got the "over-confidence" from.

Again, when did I ever say that I think my army is too good? We were talking specifically about the army you posted up, which I discussed in detail how I would counter - and all of my points are valid.

It is a decent army list, and would do well enough against a lot of opponents. I'm pretty certain about that. But there are definitely hard counters to it. Massed poison can ruin my day. Force weapons can give me a run for my money. Imperial Guard leafblower armies would blow me off the park. There are many more I could list that you would already know about, being a 'Nids player yourself. The reality is mate, our codex can't deal with certain lists without heavy list tailoring. We don't have the range and quantity of anti-tank weaponry to deal with artillery/tank/flyer heavy Imperial Guard. We are outnumbered and out-gunned by blob Guard. Grey Knights and Dark Eldar laugh at our monstrous creatures in both shooting and combat. Almost any army will beat us at long range. I think that is the other point you are missing. This is not a tournament army - though it could be considered the foundations of one. This is an army for a beginner. This is a balanced army that isn't tailored to specifically fight any other. Hence why I have said repeatedly that I feel tournament players would do a number on me.

What force multiplier though? A Tyrannofex? A Warrior brood or two? Genestealers? Ymgarls? Harpies and Gargoyles? Raveners? You have to remember that the application of a lot of these units is lost on me in regards to the rest of my army, something I have been quite clear about. As for your last two sentences, mate, you might want to re-read my posts. I think that having three is the base-line for starting my army up. I've mentioned many times that I will move to two once I am able to get more models. It is a matter of both money and time. Also tactics.

Tynskel

01-05-2013, 06:41 AM

Your over confidence comes from just your writing on what you would do. But what you would do completely depends on many factors.

For example: blood angels whirlwinds will probably be able to keep LoS on the target. They can move and fire because they are a fast vehicle. They are extremely accurate, and they are cheap. One usually does not see them because there are so many choices in the blood angels arsenal, that they are overlooked.

Terrain is another factor, because it causes clumping of models. If you don't have to worry about that, well that just tells me that your group just doesn't use enough terrain! Use more!

As for force multipliers: this comes from experience. Timing is the real key to Tyranids. It is about having combos that seem to separated, that slide together. Your list composes of slow and fast elements. I think another unit to aide your force would be another fast element, because you either have to wait for the gaunt squads to catch up, or forge on ahead without them. Gribblies would probably be good because they can soak up fire. Although, a harpy could make your trygons particularly terrifying because of the sonic screech, if you wanted to go big creature.

Learn2Eel

01-05-2013, 05:26 PM

Sorry for my over-reaction, just got a bit annoyed when I read the whole over-confidence thing, that's my bad for not understanding what you meant.

Well that's true, I was talking more about standard Space Marine ones, but still, I do have the range on the Tyrants to at least give them pause. 42" range on each turn is nothing to sneeze at.

We use a lot, don't worry. Mostly though I spread my forces out, even in cover. Remember, my entire army has Move Through Cover. Unless it is impassable terrain, I'm generally not worried if I move through it.

Hmm I like the sound of that, that is what I've been looking to add at higher points levels (at least whilst keeping the army list I have now), but dropping a Tervigon and a Termagant brood would free up 260 points easily.
Yeah, I've never actually thought of using a Harpy in combination with other units - I've always looked at it as an isolated unit, or as a foil for my Hive Tyrants. That halving Initiative thing would actually be....yeah, that would really help against a lot of units I would want to charge. Even paired with Termagants, it can make a big difference. I could take a whole bunch of Raveners mixed with Gargoyles or a Harpy. Not sure though.
For example, taking a Harpy would leave me 100 points to spend, then I could take 16 Gargoyles?

What about this?
1500

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brain-leech devourers - 260

Elites
Hive Guard (2) - 100
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs - 210
Tervigon w/ crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst, toxin sacs - 210
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Fast Attack
Harpy w/ cluster spines - 160
Gargoyles (16) - 96

Heavy Support
Trygon - 200 (if Hive Guard are not taken)

Less 10 Termagants and a Tervigon (also less 20 extra Termagants on average), but gain a third flying monstrous creature and mobile cover for at least one flying monstrous creature - actually, come to think of, flying mosntrous creatures' can't be hit by blast weapons when swooping, so it may be a good idea to send the Warlord Tyrant, the Harpy and the Gargoyles down one flank, and the other Flyrant moves down the other (paired with other stuff though obviously). Or maybe that is a silly idea. One Tervigon per side, one Tyrant per side, and if using the Trygon, try and pair it up with the Harpy and instead give the Gargoyles to the other Flyrant?

This army is less simple but arguably more dangerous. I gain a lot of anti-infantry firepower in the form of the Harpy, and I get a fast moving tank-hunter as well with the Smash rules. Pretty hard to kill the Hive Tyrants now with the Harpy wreaking havoc as well. Though I feel I may be putting too many eggs in one basket (flying monsters).
Not sure though.

Tynskel

01-06-2013, 01:13 AM

Now, this is starting to get to the point where it is becoming extremely difficult for your opponent to prioritize their targets. I like this list. Not my cup of tea, but I like it. You have the speed to react to changes on the battlefield, but enough gribblies to maintain a strong threshold.

I don't get how you are calculating 20 termagants per tervigon per turn. You can only get 3D6, and if you roll any doubles, the tervigon stops producing.

However, even though you have lost a spawner and 10 termagants, you did gain 16 fast 'termagants', and a harpy. Not a bad trade.

I wouldn't worry about have 'too many eggs'. All of your flying creatures have Smash. They can all be str 10 AP2 when you most need it. The only thing I would worry about is that you have 6 monsterous creatures. That's a lot! It is fun, but still a lot. I think that as you play more games, you'll phase out probably 50% of your monsterous creatures. Don't do so, yet. Just play around, but I think you'll find that the smaller creatures can be quite the power base in the Tyranid army.

Learn2Eel

01-06-2013, 01:29 AM

Yeah, I like it too. It will be a while before I can get the Harpy and the Gargoyles though at this rate - by that time, it could be a matter of when the official kit is released I guess. I'll wait and see.

No, what I mean to say is that according to people who have done the math a Tervigon will spawn an average of 20 Termagants in a game. Presumably 9-11 or 10-10 or something along those lines.

Yeah, not a bad trade at all. More fast moving elements, harder hitting too for the most part. Balances out.

Yeah, well I was worried about getting too many little guys, I did want a mix but not too much 'horde'.

Tynskel

01-06-2013, 10:11 AM

hehehe... 3 tervigons usually implies a horde!

Learn2Eel

01-06-2013, 06:10 PM

Well yeah, but not as bad as if I had taken a mix of Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Termagants, etc, haha.

Tynskel

01-06-2013, 09:45 PM

true, you can get a bunch of guys doing that!

Learn2Eel

01-07-2013, 07:12 PM

My second Hive Tyrant and Mycetic Spore should be arriving soon, then I can do my double Flyrant list and have room for the Doom of Malan'tai at 1750 :) Won't have the models to take anything else though, so at that points level it will probably just be add Adrenal Glands and Regeneration to each Tervigon, which combined with the Doom would make it 1750 on the dot. Though, I could also drop Adrenal Glands on one Tervigon and give Toxin Sacs to the Trygon instead.
Sucks that I won't be able to get Hive Guard until late March :( Ah well lol.

Tynskel

01-07-2013, 08:21 PM

That's all good. 1 piece at a time! Have fun. 1750 is a fair amount of points. You should start seeing some interesting firepower coming out of other armies that might make you adjust what you buy in march.

Learn2Eel

01-10-2013, 03:49 AM

Well, I had three more 1500 point games today (six 1500 point games so far). Another three crushing wins.

First game was against Dark Eldar allied with Chaos, nothing really notable happened, I tabled him at the end of turn five.
Second game was against Dark Angels, and my opponent conceded by the end of my turn three (I went first).
Third game was against Ultramarines, tabling them in five turns. Notable things; the Trygon killed over 600 points, the Doom of Malan'tai killed over 200, the Hive Tyrant killed around 250.

My army list for every 1500 point game so far has been this;

'Nids 1500 Temp
HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ wings, two brainleech devourers, old adversary - 285

Elites
The Doom of Malan'tai - 90

Troops
Tervigon w/ adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 220
Tervigon w/ regeneration, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 250
Tervigon w/ regeneration, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, crushing claws, cluster spines, catalyst - 250
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50
Termagants (10) - 50

Heavy Support
Trygon Prime w/ toxin sacs - 250

Obviously it is a temporary army list until my second Flyrant and mycetic spore arrive - those are the only models I have (the ones in the list aside, aside from 30 Termagants for spawning).
And I've (strangely) preserved my record of tabling or forcing my opponent to concede in every single game with my 'Nids, so much so that my LGS owner has challenged me to a game - and a lot of people are quickly refusing to play me.

I know it is the basis of a TAC list but still....
And no, I'm not inferring anything about being a good player or whatever. I've got the gist of it but I'm still getting the hang of it; I haven't been really challenged yet, and I am still eagerly awaiting one.

Anyway, happy to report my Tyrant and Spore should arrive within the next few days :) Hopefully in time for that game against my LGS owner!

One quick note - despite being all by his lonesome (though not on the field, I make sure never to just send him off unsupported even when flying unless I need him to) the Hive Tyrant has been my most consistent performer. People are quickly learning to fear my brain-leech devourers.....most people I play against don't understand just how devastating weight of fire can be. When I am killing one or two Terminators with every shooting, or wrecking a Razorback or Rhino, wrecking a Dreadnought through rear armour or wiping out entire Devastator squads in one volley and causing Pinning tests galore, I think my decision has paid off. I can't wait to have a pair of them! I find Old Adversary has barely made a difference to his shooting, so it won't be too big a loss when I get my second Flyrant - it has only really been helping me in combat.

Tynskel

01-10-2013, 03:16 PM

pinning... I don't remember devourers causing pinning... Is that a flying monsterous creature rule?

DWest

01-10-2013, 03:42 PM

Some Flyer Vehicles get the "Strafing Run" special rule, which confers +1 BS and Pinning to most weapons against ground-based models, but the Hive Tyrant doesn't get that ability with Wings at the moment. Devourers and Brainleech Devourers still apply -1 to the Morale check for casualties at the end of the phase.

rpricew

01-10-2013, 04:15 PM

I would assume the pinning checks are coming from wrecked/exploded vehicles.

How would you assess Regeneration on your two Tervigons? Did you give them that simply because you had points left over?

Do you stack the Tyrant's Preferred Enemy with other shooting from your army, or is it just for him? How has it performed for you?

Do you like having the Trygon as a Prime? Are you just using up points that are dedicated to the spore for your Doom? Do you plan on switching over to Hive Commander when the Spore arrives?

I am running a 5 Tervigon list and plenty of other MC lists, and Regen always seems to let me down. My opponents all know that when you start wounding a MC, you follow through and kill it (denying me the Regen roll). I also only run Catalyst on my Tervigons as it is much more reliable that taking powers from the Big Rule Book.

Learn2Eel

01-10-2013, 06:12 PM

pinning... I don't remember devourers causing pinning... Is that a flying monsterous creature rule?

Some Flyer Vehicles get the "Strafing Run" special rule, which confers +1 BS and Pinning to most weapons against ground-based models, but the Hive Tyrant doesn't get that ability with Wings at the moment. Devourers and Brainleech Devourers still apply -1 to the Morale check for casualties at the end of the phase.

Nope, that's just my monumental screw-up. I must have misread the rule about leadership tests and interpreted it like it was a Pinning weapon. Thankfully, I haven't pinned anyone with them yet that hasn't just had their transport wrecked (in fact, I might not have pinned anyone with them yet) so all is well and good. My big bad lol. I think after 10 games I probably should be more in-line with the codex, though so far I haven't gotten anything else wrong (I hope).

I would assume the pinning checks are coming from wrecked/exploded vehicles.

How would you assess Regeneration on your two Tervigons? Did you give them that simply because you had points left over?

Do you stack the Tyrant's Preferred Enemy with other shooting from your army, or is it just for him? How has it performed for you?

Do you like having the Trygon as a Prime? Are you just using up points that are dedicated to the spore for your Doom? Do you plan on switching over to Hive Commander when the Spore arrives?

I am running a 5 Tervigon list and plenty of other MC lists, and Regen always seems to let me down. My opponents all know that when you start wounding a MC, you follow through and kill it (denying me the Regen roll). I also only run Catalyst on my Tervigons as it is much more reliable that taking powers from the Big Rule Book.

Essentially yes. Once I get my second Flying Hive Tyrant, the Doom, the upgrades on the Trygon, and regen and adrenal glands on the Tervigons are all gone. As I don't have any other models, I'm basically just making up the points. I've found Regeneration is useful, and it even saved one of my Tervigons from certain death. I've found that my opponents have been too busy dealing with so many targets and thus splitting their firepower - hard to shoot the Tervigon on the other side of the board when a horde of angry Termagants backed by a Tervigon and potentially other nasties are about to charge you. For the most part though, it is 30 points that is better spent elsewhere, at least in competitive armies anyway.

I try to stack Preferred Enemy with as many other units as I can whilst trying to get the Hive Tyrant into good positions. It can be a juggling act but it works fine. Frankly, it is good for insurance against a bad roll and maximizing wounds with the Devourers for himself, but it makes nearby units get crazy buffs. He becomes a lot better in combat with it too, given his lack of scything talons or toxin sacs. When he is flying and is 6" away from a Termagant unit in combat, it seriously ups their combat potential. I would say it is worth it, though it might be better used if the Tyrant has more fast moving units near him/he is walking and surrounded by things like Dakkafexes and Devilgants and the like.

I've found it does ok, the extra 6" range and extra 6 shots do make a difference and have helped me with softening up anything from MEQs to vehicles - even one casualty can make a difference when helping out the Termagants. Being a character also means I can single out power fists and other nasties - as Marneus Calgar found out yesterday (hint: it didn't end well for poor Calgar). It also means I can be tied up by a smart opponent/a Chaos character and delay my Trygon wiping out a unit, which is a valid tactic as it would usually mean it would pop out at the end of my turn and be shot at in their turn. Overall, I think it is fine without the Prime upgrade, though the extra synapse coverage is welcome - Shadow in the Warp means psykers are going to have a hard time against it. In my dual Flyrant list I actually can't fit the Doom in, but that is why I will tweak the army based on how the second Flyrant performs - if I find their effectiveness is reduced, then I might drop it and bring back the Doom. Though the Doom will definitely feature in any game of 1630 or above.

Against a smart opponent with a lot of firepower, that is probably what will happen, yeah. I guess where I play people are yet to figure them out, though I think playing on a 4x4 means my opponents have to spread their firepower early on or risk being overwhelmed. I agree, Catalyst is the way to go I feel. Giving Feel No Pain to a unit is nothing to be sneezed at, it is well worth the points. Though I haven't experimented with putting it on my 'Gants or the Doom, I have put it to good use on my Tervigons/Trygon/Hive Tyrant. It is good if the Tyrant rolls something like Endurance or Iron Arm, as I either don't have to worry casting Catalyst on it or it can help out with the buffing too.