Rending Cleansing Flame?

[Wildcard]

I had never thought this before, but as RAW, Castellan Crowes Cleansing Flame is rending stuff up on 4+

Codex Grey Knights
page 42, Master Swordsman:

His close combat attacks have the Rending special rule, and will rend on a To Wound roll of 4 or more.

and to back original claim up:

FAQ Grey Knights 1.1 for 6th edition


Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.




So, does this indeed mean that: Crowes Cleansing Flame is indeed rending on a 4+, or am i missing something?

[DarkLink]

Oh. Sweet. Nice, GW.

One of these days I'm actually going to seriously try out Crowe. I've played him before, just not seriously in a competitive list/setting. Sticking him in a Storm Raven is looking like a way of actually making him decent. A nice little assault unit that can take out backfield/scoring/horde units, but not so expensive that you care if he goes down with the Raven.

[Learn2Eel]

You know, it actually wouldn't surprise me if that was intentional, given some of the recent FAQ changes for Grey Knights. If Nemesis Greatswords are S10, re-rolling to hit/wound/armour penetration and providing +1 attack on a Nemesis Dreadknight, why can't Crowe's Cleansing Flame cause an AP2 wound on a 4+ on every enemy model in the combat?

Just be careful who you take that against. They will probably accept it, but copious amounts of cheese will be thrown at you.
In fact, given that, I actually wouldn't mind taking him. Not that I would use him in the way some Grey Knight players do - I would only have one unit of Purifiers, not an army of them.

I've seen your idea done before DarkLink, and it works pretty well from what I can tell. With challenges and the sword stances, he can pretty reliably hunker an enemy unit down for a long time.

[Wildcard]

Just be careful who you take that against. They will probably accept it, but copious amounts of cheese will be thrown at you.

Hmm, it is purely RAW and the reason i brought it up was to ask for any possible faulties in my logic. I do not understand why anyone would be so upset if I used a skill on a character that "is working as intended"?

About "They will probably accept it", what choice do they have? I mean, i dont go into games requiring of my necron oppoenent that he can get his armor values up to 12, and not 13 by that wargear thats name escapes me now.


And its not like Grey Knight have access to lots of plasma and melta in their own, not to mention non-iniative 1 ap2 close combat weaponry.
(dreadknights/dreadnoughts, ven dreads and crowe)

[Learn2Eel]

What I mean is that people will think it's just another OP thing about Grey Knights, even though 6th means they are actually quite balanced. I wouldn't have any complaints. People complain about my pair of aforementioned greatsword wielding Dreadknights incessantly but don't stop to think that it is a hefty points investment and that the Dreadknight will still die to massed plasma/melta fire the same as always.

If anyone complains, just say; "he's a 150 point character that can't join units and will die 50% of the time when hit by a meltagun". They should ease up pretty quickly.
This combat ability is nuts, meaning that against squads he probably won't have to worry about using offensive sword stances and can just sit on his re-rollable saving throws.
However, his main weakness is still that he has to walk it alone and nothing has changed there.

[Wildcard]

I love my double (or sometimes triple) Dreadknights with swords and teleporters... Even though last time i played i lost one to a explosion caused by the vehicle it hit :D

In general its really sad that people moan so much about Grey Knights. I stopped even considering going to local tourneys when it was ruled that all things psy (psycannons and psybolts) are +10points to their codex values, and no more than 2 similar units, save for troops allowed for GK.

But yeah, haters gonna hate :P

[Learn2Eel]

I love my double (or sometimes triple) Dreadknights with swords and teleporters... Even though last time i played i lost one to a explosion caused by the vehicle it hit :D

In general its really sad that people moan so much about Grey Knights. I stopped even considering going to local tourneys when it was ruled that all things psy (psycannons and psybolts) are +10points to their codex values, and no more than 2 similar units, save for troops allowed for GK.

But yeah, haters gonna hate :P

The most common way my Dreadknights lose wounds is not to AP2 weaponry or even S6+ weaponry. It is almost always to the odd S4 shot here or there. I'm not joking. One shot. One hit. One wound. Roll a 1! Someone tried to tank shock one of mine today with a Rhino, dunno why. The Rhino had 1 HP left and was thus instantly-destroyed by my auto-hit at S10.

In the same game, at the end, my opponent and an observer complained about how cheesy Grey Knights are and that I was a power game for playing them. I was like, come on! I don't even play an optimized list; two Inquisitors, two five-man Terminator squads, two Dreadknights, a Stormraven and a Land Raider Crusader at 1500 points. Grey Knights have several weaknesses that can be exploited, just like any codex, and their units are hardly OP compared to ones from other codices.

We lack quantitative long-range firepower, we lack AP2 weaponry, we lack effective means of dealing with Terminators from other codices, we lack good ways to defend our Terminators in shooting, we are almost universally outnumbered, etc.
Case in point; the Dreadknight. I've never quite understood why it is complained about so much. People are like "OMG it is so OP", how is it? A good Dreadknight is a fast Dreadknight - i.e. one with a Personal Teleporter. That already jacks its price up hugely. Then there are the upgrades; ranged weapons are a good idea, albeit unnecessary, and each of them costs like 30+ points. Then there are the combat upgrades, which can be costly too. It will die to plasma and melta fire like anything else. Run it into TH/SS Terminators and it won't look so tough.

Even the 'spam' lists aren't that crash hot anymore; they were in 5th but the new edition doesn't reward those army lists as much. Paladins aren't so frightening with the wound-allocation rules, and Draigo is pretty lacklustre against +2 save units.

Also, if I went to a tournament where they pulled that on me as well, I'd just quit and go home. It's sad that I'd be forced to, but I would refuse to put up with that. That's ridiculous. Are they still doing that in your local area?

[Animus Silvanna]

However, his main weakness is still that he has to walk it alone and nothing has changed there.
I'm confused where does it say that Crowe has to be independant? He is a Charachter right? and Characters can go in squads.

[Learn2Eel]

Only Independent Characters can join squads. Normal characters can't join squads unless they are already included in the squad.
The Doom of Malan'tai, for example, is a character because it is 'Unique'. However, it cannot join units.

[Wildcard]

That's ridiculous. Are they still doing that in your local area?

Dunno, they do these campaigns / tournamenst every once in a while, taking turns in FaBa and 40k.. It's not that big of a problem, i got full sized table, and more GW terrain that can even fit on it at home, thus my group practically always comes here to play..

Also, i just remembered two other reasons why i didn't join (f.ex my IG):
- No Heavy 1 weapons on flyer can shoot flyers (GG Vendettas / Stormravens with multimelta / TL LC)
- Wounds couln't be allocated to models that were hit by blast if there was no los to them (contrary to the clear rules in the book)

Anyway, thats off topic. Time to get back to Crowe, Characters and general lament for the haters of grey knight order :D

[Animus Silvanna]

Only Independent Characters can join squads. Normal characters can't join squads unless they are already included in the squad.
The Doom of Malan'tai, for example, is a character because it is 'Unique'. However, it cannot join units.

Yeah but where is the rule that states that "Unique" characters must be alone? Just would like fore personal reference of-course.

[Nabterayl]

Yeah but where is the rule that states that "Unique" characters must be alone? Just would like fore personal reference of-course.

There is no rule. However, there is no rule that a unique character can join units, either. It all comes down to whether or not the model in question has the Independent Character rule. As page 110 says, special characters like Crowe are unique, even if they don't specifically have the unique rule printed in their entry. Page 5 of the BRB FAQ, in turn, specifies:


Q: Do models classified as unique count as characters? (p63)
A: Yes, but not in the case of vehicles (with the exception of Bjorn the Fell-handed).

Note, though, that a unique model counts only as a character - not an independent character. Thus, a unique model cannot join a unit unless it explicitly has the Independent Character rule. Crowe is an example of a unique model that doesn't have Independent Character, and thus he cannot join a unit - even though, as a unique model, he is a character, and thus can participate in challenges, make precision shots/strikes on to-wound rolls of 6's, etc.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmm, it is purely RAW and the reason i brought it up was to ask for any possible faulties in my logic. I do not understand why anyone would be so upset if I used a skill on a character that "is working as intended"?The person you're playing against might object when you explain how Crowe's masterful sword-skills somehow make his psychic flames better, that's all. Chances are in the next FAQ his sword will be upgraded to use a typical weapon profile. There's nothing wrong with the opposing player saying "Hey, this seems to make the character much more powerful and was most likely unintentional, can we play it differently?"

Yeah but where is the rule that states that "Unique" characters must be alone? Just would like fore personal reference of-course.There isn't a rule like that - but the only thing that allows a lone model to join another unit is the Independent Character rule. Crowe does not have the Independent Character rule, and thus can't join units.

[Kyban]

I had never thought this before, but as RAW, Castellan Crowes Cleansing Flame is rending stuff up on 4+

Codex Grey Knights
page 42, Master Swordsman:

His close combat attacks have the Rending special rule, and will rend on a To Wound roll of 4 or more.

and to back original claim up:

FAQ Grey Knights 1.1 for 6th edition


Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.




So, does this indeed mean that: Crowes Cleansing Flame is indeed rending on a 4+, or am i missing something?

The only thing that might prevent it is that it might not be considered a "To Wound" roll even though you are rolling to see if it causes a wound.

[walrusman999]

Dunno, they do these campaigns / tournamenst every once in a while, taking turns in FaBa and 40k.. It's not that big of a problem, i got full sized table, and more GW terrain that can even fit on it at home, thus my group practically always comes here to play..

Also, i just remembered two other reasons why i didn't join (f.ex my IG):
- No Heavy 1 weapons on flyer can shoot flyers (GG Vendettas / Stormravens with multimelta / TL LC)
- Wounds couln't be allocated to models that were hit by blast if there was no los to them (contrary to the clear rules in the book)

Anyway, thats off topic. Time to get back to Crowe, Characters and general lament for the haters of grey knight order :D

Your local meta is totally F*ked up. They really should realize they are turning people away more than helping those who want to play. You should bring a tourney ready necron force and make them ban fliers all together. I mean seriously, what makes the flier's heavy weapon rule valid.. Not to mention their blatant ignorance of the rule book.