Daemon Prince and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax

[Lord Krungharr]

Here's one for the new Chaos Codex...

The Artefacts headline rule says you replace one weapon with an Artefact. So if a Daemon Prince, who comes armed with a close combat weapon, chooses to take the Burning Brand of Skalathrax, does that replace his close combat weapon? And if so, does that mean he cannot make attacks in close combat? Or does he just lose an attack like a Dreadnought? I mean Helbrute.

[Demonus]

Thousand Sons do not have a close combat weapon, however may make close combat attacks. He just punches and kicks and claws, for his normal attacks at his normal str.

[Wildcard]

If model has no ccw listed, it counts as having a ccw with the following profile: S user, AP -, melee
However that ccw does never count as second ccw, nor can it be used in any manner in which to get additional attacks (exept that from the charge)

I dont have the rulebook now in hand so i can't make an exact quote, nor point you with a page, but if i had to guess, it was at the beginning of Rulebook, where all kinds of stuff were teached to the newbies..

And no, as it only had 1 ccw to begin with, it would not lose an attack in the swap

Those are my opinions

-wildcard

[Demonus]

correct except it would be AP2 due to Smash rule.

[DarkLink]

The weapon's AP is not 2, the DP's attacks are. The point is, you get a default ccw. The AP is not relevant here.

[Wildcard]

Okays, reunited with my bible of 40k. Page 51:
"No specialised melee weapon: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon"

Also, if a model is equipped with a pistol and no ccw listed, the pistol counts as ccw. its in the same page, with references to multiple pages. But the point is, you don't get that free ccw if you are only equipped with a pistol.

[Kyban]

In short, if you don't have a ccw you are still treated as having one so you can attack in cc. Taking the Brand will not affect the way you fight in cc.

[Archon]

The ccw on a DP has two main reasons:

one: that he can change a weapon for a artefact(weapon)
two: that he may not change two weapons for two artefacts (and that he may not have an additonal A as for buying, trading a artefact)

In combat he (or she, or it) simply doesn´t need a ccw to make combat, he (or... you know) can use his (big) claws, his jaw, or simply his bulk to crush and maim through his (see above) enemys!

The ccw is not needed for ccw, it is needed to point out how many trading a model can make or how many attacks-boni it will get (or get not).

[Kyban]

two: that he may not change two weapons for two artefacts (and that he may not have an additonal A as for buying, trading a artefact)


The artifacts already say you can only swap out one weapon for an artifact.

[inquisitorsog]

Okays, reunited with my bible of 40k. Page 51:
"No specialised melee weapon: If a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon"

Also, if a model is equipped with a pistol and no ccw listed, the pistol counts as ccw. its in the same page, with references to multiple pages. But the point is, you don't get that free ccw if you are only equipped with a pistol.
I agree that's how it should be played, but I can understand any resulting confusion.
Those rules are so poorly worded that I wonder how a new player would read it. A pistol isn't listed as having the melee type, it just says it can be used as one. The key is the word "specifically". A Pistol is a Pistol, it's not stated to be "specifically" a melee weapon, just able to be used as one. I know what we think it should be, I know the intent based on custom and previous editions, but I've also had much dumber debates than that one could turn into.

[DarkLink]

Actually, pistols do explicitly have the melee special rule.


BRB pg 51:A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done,
use the profile given above [ccw] - the Strength, AP and special ruIes
of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored (see page 52).

The ccw entry has the melee rule, ergo pistols have the melee rule in assault.