Question About rapid fire mechanics ~~~

[walrusman999]

So upon reading the rules for a rapid fire weapon in 6E, this is my conclusion, regardless of whether you move or not you can fire 2 shots at half range (12inches for most). HOWEVER you can only take 1 shot if the unit does not move.

Am I correct in my assumption or is there some part of the rule book i have inherently missed and am misinterpreting it because this could change some game strategies if you really get 2 shots at half (effectively making space marines get 20 shots within 18 inches).

Just a thought for some people. Let me know what you think thanks.

[ElectricPaladin]

This is not correct. You are thinking of the old rapid fire rules. The new rapid fire rules are as follows:

• 1 shot at full range regardless of movement.
• 2 shots at half range, regardless of movement.
• No assaulting after firing a rapid fire weapon (unless you're Relentless).

[walrusman999]

This is not correct. You are thinking of the old rapid fire rules. The new rapid fire rules are as follows:

• 1 shot at full range regardless of movement.
• 2 shots at half range, regardless of movement.
• No assaulting after firing a rapid fire weapon (unless you're Relentless).

that's exactly what i was saying though. So in reality, a space marine squad of 10 men all with bolters, will get 20 shots within 18 inches of themselves (6 in move + 12 inch range). Am i the only one who sees how ridiculous this could become?

- In previous editions you would only get 1 shot after moving, now you can move 6 in and get 2 shots effectively doubling your damage out put for a 6in trade off.

- and yes i realize i was wrong about the 1 shot at max if not moving, but that's irrelevant
to what i was trying to get at (2 shots at half range regardless of movement)

[ElectricPaladin]

This is the part that is incorrect:


HOWEVER you can only take 1 shot if the unit does not move.

But, yes, you can get 20 shots within 18 inches.

You want to know what's scarier? Tau fire warriors. Up to 20 shots, 21 inches, Str 5!

[walrusman999]

This is the part that is incorrect:



But, yes, you can get 20 shots within 18 inches.

You want to know what's scarier? Tau fire warriors. Up to 20 shots, 21 inches, Str 5!

MMM Tasty, but really this was for storm troopers and veterans who pack the squad out with plasma guns to kill a boat load of marines XD

- my entire local meta is ****ing space marines.... ALL OF THEM ARE SPACE MARINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nabterayl]

that's exactly what i was saying though. So in reality, a space marine squad of 10 men all with bolters, will get 20 shots within 18 inches of themselves (6 in move + 12 inch range). Am i the only one who sees how ridiculous this could become?

- In previous editions you would only get 1 shot after moving, now you can move 6 in and get 2 shots effectively doubling your damage out put for a 6in trade off.
... maybe in 3rd or before (I started playing in 4th). In 4th and 5th editions rapid fire was:
Fire twice up to 12" (!= half range) regardless of whether you moved or not.
Fire once up to maximum range if you did not move, unless you were Relentless.
Not assault if you fired at all, regardless of movement, unless you were Relentless.
The main 6e change is not to 1, but to 2*. It used to be that a space marine squad with 10 bolters could put out 20 shots up to 18" away from their starting position. You can still do that, but now that same squad can also put out 10 shots up to 30" away from their starting positions.

If you were playing rapid fire weapons getting only 1 shot when moving in the last two editions, you didn't have the old rapid fire rules correct.

EDIT: 5th and 6th edition RF rules below, for comparison:
5th edition (p 28):

Models armed with a rapid fire weapon can move and fire two shots at targets up to 12" away.

If the unit has not moved, models armed with rapid fire weapons may instead fire one shot at targets over 12" away, up to the weapons' maximum range."

...

Models that shoot with rapid fire weapons in the Shooting phase cannot assault into close combat in the ensuing Assault phase.

cf.** 6th edition (p 52):

A model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapon's maximum range away [note - half range, not 12" - ed.]. Alternatively, it can instead fire one shot at a target over half the weapon's range away up to the weapon's maximum range [note - no more requirement not to have moved - ed.].

...

Models that shoot with Rapid Fire weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault phase.

* Rapid fire weapons with a 24" range see no change to 1 in 6e. RF weapons with a range greater than 24" (like pulse rifles) get a range buff, while those with a range less than 24" (like hotshot lasguns) get a range debuff.
** For you, Tynskel.

[walrusman999]

... maybe in 3rd or before (I started playing in 4th). In 4th and 5th editions rapid fire was:

Fire twice up to 12" (!= half range) regardless of whether you moved or not.
Fire once up to maximum range if you did not move, unless you were Relentless.
Not assault if you fired at all, regardless of movement, unless you were Relentless.

The 6e change is not to 1, but to 2. It used to be that a space marine squad with 10 bolters could put out 20 shots up to 18" away from their starting position. You can still do that, but now that same squad can also put out 10 shots up to 30" away from their starting positions.

If you were playing rapid fire weapons getting only 1 shot when moving in the last two editions, you didn't have the old rapid fire rules correct.

Probably, i started playing when the battle for maccrage starter just came out. I even purchased the one before that, with the dark eldar and space marines. I've taken quite a few years off as my local group died out with alot of personal things going on, and the hobby store we would play at moved to over 30minutes away from where most of us lived. I've played a game or two with my friends whom I'm still in contact with. So this is the first time I'm really sitting down to read one of the new rulebooks. Last time I read a rulebook, it was 1 shot at 12" if you moved, 2 at 12" if you didn't or 1 at 24" if you didn't move.

EDIT:
According to your edit nabteyarl, I most likely started in 4E, which sound's about right, 5e was the one I started to play here and there, and now I'm getting back into it with 6th.

[magickbk]

When I started, bolters were 24" range, Str 4, -1 save modifier. All this rapid fire stuff was unimaginable back then.

[DarkLink]

Basically, moving no longer affects Rapid Fire in any way. You always get one shot at full range, two shots at half range, but cannot assault afterwards. This is a fairly significant buff to most MEQ armies, since you can move and shoot much more effectively than in the past.

[inquisitorsog]

When I started, bolters were 24" range, Str 4, -1 save modifier. All this rapid fire stuff was unimaginable back then.
I'm sure you had to load them from the front and load the charge and projectile separate. And then ignite it with a rock striking a piece of steel.

And I'm sure you had to assault up hill both ways and every battle field was covered in a meter of snow.

:p

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm sure you had to load them from the front and load the charge and projectile separate. And then ignite it with a rock striking a piece of steel.

And I'm sure you had to assault up hill both ways and every battle field was covered in a meter of snow.

:p

The orks were bigger in those days, too. Not the weedy little orks you've got these days - big beefy orks, with extra teeth! And we didn't have any vehicles. No, we had to walk into battle, like those poor *******s playing Infinity. We walked into battle and we liked it.

[Nabterayl]

In the snow, I assume ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

In the snow, I assume ;)

And not snow like you've got these days. You remember the Big Snow of 39894? No, that was before your time. Let me get my photo album...

[magickbk]

Well, the snow was a lot different back then. Difficult terrain halved your movement (4"). And if you were Encumbered by carrying a heavy weapon in the unit also? Well, moving just wasn't an option, unless you had Suspensors. None of which mattered when that stupid T8, 10W Great Unclean One Plague Winded your ENTIRE ARMY!

[Nabterayl]

Plague Wind probably wouldn't have been so effective if you'd only had shoes, or at least hadn't been trying to walk in the snow uphill.

[Wildcard]

My fondest memories are from time when Terminators had 3+ save..

And the trick was that it was tested on a 2d6 total result!

Good luck, only on snake eyes you were killing any of those...

Glory Days!

[Hunter]

i taught if you moved with rapid fire you could only snap shot at full range

[Tynskel]

cf cf cf!

[OrksOrksOrks]

Except almost everything had a save modifier! A Lascannon had a -9 to saves for example.

Really, the armour system, modifiers to shooting from cover and a units having a movement value were bits of 2nd I'd really welcome back to the game

[Tynskel]

The orks were bigger in those days, too. Not the weedy little orks you've got these days - big beefy orks, with extra teeth! And we didn't have any vehicles. No, we had to walk into battle, like those poor *******s playing Infinity. We walked into battle and we liked it.

My friend has the old ghazgull. He uses him as his warboss: Gotsmalla

[magickbk]

Except almost everything had a save modifier! A Lascannon had a -9 to saves for example.

Really, the armour system, modifiers to shooting from cover and a units having a movement value were bits of 2nd I'd really welcome back to the game

Pretty sure the lascannon was a -6, but it did roll 3D6+9 for armor penetration. The modifier system works fine for Fantasy, but I've preferred the AP system since it was introduced in 3rd. The one thing I don't like is how almost everything now ends up with a cover or invulnerable or jink or FNP save. It feels like horde armies have been getting less numerous over the years because their troops are going up in points cost because everything is now more survivable.

[walrusman999]

I feel like this whole thing got blown way out of proportion.... hahaha

[Tynskel]

Didn't the Lascannon do D10 hits?

I remember that was one of my favorite things about Bio-Plasma Biomorph. It was high strength, high armor penetration, and did a bunch of hits.

[magickbk]

Didn't the Lascannon do D10 hits?

The old rules did multiple wounds after the failed save, kind of like some Fantasy weapons like artillery still do multiple wounds. Instant Death replaced multiple wounds back in 3rd edition. I don't remember what the lascannon had, though. It seemed like multiple wounds rarely did anything due to the wound allocation rules.

[ElectricPaladin]

Personally, I think save modifiers are far superior to the "feast or famine" situation in modern 40k. The way it is now, depending on who I play and who I play against, my soldiers are either wheat for the reaping or juggernauts of war, with no grey area. It leads to some tactically weird situations, like Marines ignoring cover and being hard to kill, but folding as soon as someone brings plasma to the table. The flexibility afforded by Fantasy's rules creates a much more tactical environment.

[magickbk]

Personally, I think save modifiers are far superior to the "feast or famine" situation in modern 40k. The way it is now, depending on who I play and who I play against, my soldiers are either wheat for the reaping or juggernauts of war, with no grey area. It leads to some tactically weird situations, like Marines ignoring cover and being hard to kill, but folding as soon as someone brings plasma to the table. The flexibility afforded by Fantasy's rules creates a much more tactical environment.

It sounds good, but in practice it was ridiculous and made no sense. Ultimately it came down to a speed thing, though. For shooting, you had your ballistic skill, rolled the die, modified for cover, modified for other rules, modified for abilities, then rolled to wound on the chart, modified for rules, modified for persistent effects like grenade clouds, then took your save, modified for weapon modifier, rolled your Invulnerable if you had one. Now you roll to hit, roll to wound on the chart, roll your best save if not ignored. Fantasy is the same today, but since 40K was loaded with high strength weapons, cover, and grenades, it came into play far more frequently. Coupled with the fact that AP makes sense given the background(reality in a universe that eschews reality?), either your armor is designed to protect you from a level of weapon, or it isn't.

Besides, plasma weapons at S7 would be a -4 modifier, and ignore power armor anyway. It really becomes a simpler system that has an almost identical result.

The difference would primarily be in Assault, where Marines would become infinitely less survivable.

[ElectricPaladin]

It sounds good, but in practice it was ridiculous and made no sense. Ultimately it came down to a speed thing, though. For shooting, you had your ballistic skill, rolled the die, modified for cover, modified for other rules, modified for abilities, then rolled to wound on the chart, modified for rules, modified for persistent effects like grenade clouds, then took your save, modified for weapon modifier, rolled your Invulnerable if you had one. Now you roll to hit, roll to wound on the chart, roll your best save if not ignored. Fantasy is the same today, but since 40K was loaded with high strength weapons, cover, and grenades, it came into play far more frequently. Coupled with the fact that AP makes sense given the background(reality in a universe that eschews reality?), either your armor is designed to protect you from a level of weapon, or it isn't.

Besides, plasma weapons at S7 would be a -4 modifier, and ignore power armor anyway. It really becomes a simpler system that has an almost identical result.

The difference would primarily be in Assault, where Marines would become infinitely less survivable.

Fair, but in Fantasy it's a bit different, still. In Fantasy weapons don't have AP, just Strength. High strength modifies armor saves. So, a very high strength weapon, like a plasma gun, will modify everyone's saves, while a low strength weapon, like a boltgun, won't effect them... or won't effect them much.

It's a different system, with different goals, I just think the Fantasy one makes for a slightly better game.

[Wildcard]

Was it in fantasy or old edition 40k where double str compared to target toughness ignored armor save?

[magickbk]

Was it in fantasy or old edition 40k where double str compared to target toughness ignored armor save?

I believe that was 6th Edition Fantasy.

Pally, I see where you are going with it. I think where it goes awry is that in Fantasy, very few units have anything in them at over S5, and you are only getting that on the charge or by striking last(or being Chaos Knights). Imagine what would happen to marines going up against, say, Guard, Grey Knights, or Chaos Marines with a lot of multi-lasers and autocannons. All those S6 and 7 weapons would be reducing your armor save to 6+ or nothing. For basic weapons, it works perfectly, no issues. But for any army that dumps out a lot of S6+ shots at range it becomes an unfair advantage. It's why Terminator armor was a 3+ save on 3D6, and why you rarely saw Tactical Squads in games in 2nd. A typical marine army might be, a terminator squad, an assault squad, a dreadnought, a devastator squad, a scout squad, a librarian, a land speeder, a predator. That was about 2000 points.

[ElectricPaladin]

Pally, I see where you are going with it. I think where it goes awry is that in Fantasy, very few units have anything in them at over S5...

That's a very good point. You'd have to totally restructure 40k to use Fantasy-style armor-modifying-strength rules. I'm not proposing a direct port, just musing about how much I like those rules...

[inquisitorsog]

It sure would be a lot easier to run those 30 boy mobz when you've got them on trays.

[duck /]

[Archon Charybdis]

A simple solution to armor modifiers would be to start counting for every point over S5, as opposed to S3 like in fantasy. A S6 shot makes power armor a 4+, for instance. The other thing would be to do away with this needlessly bifurcated Toughness/Armor save system. A single value to represent S and T would be infinitely more logical. How is it a Tyrannofex's S10 gun can punch right through a Landraider, but not terminator armor?

I could see a total toughness determined by two values like "natural toughness" and "armor toughness" offering a little more granularity--certain weapons like plasma might ignore armor toughness while poison weapons might ignore natural toughness.

[Tynskel]

A simple solution to armor modifiers would be to start counting for every point over S5, as opposed to S3 like in fantasy. A S6 shot makes power armor a 4+, for instance. The other thing would be to do away with this needlessly bifurcated Toughness/Armor save system. A single value to represent S and T would be infinitely more logical. How is it a Tyrannofex's S10 gun can punch right through a Landraider, but not terminator armor?

I could see a total toughness determined by two values like "natural toughness" and "armor toughness" offering a little more granularity--certain weapons like plasma might ignore armor toughness while poison weapons might ignore natural toughness.

Thanks for playing 6th Edition everyone. 7th Edition will be coming out the beginning of December...

[Diagnosis Ninja]

It sounds good, but in practice it was ridiculous and made no sense. Ultimately it came down to a speed thing, though. For shooting, you had your ballistic skill, rolled the die, modified for cover, modified for other rules, modified for abilities, then rolled to wound on the chart, modified for rules, modified for persistent effects like grenade clouds, then took your save, modified for weapon modifier, rolled your Invulnerable if you had one. Now you roll to hit, roll to wound on the chart, roll your best save if not ignored. Fantasy is the same today, but since 40K was loaded with high strength weapons, cover, and grenades, it came into play far more frequently. Coupled with the fact that AP makes sense given the background(reality in a universe that eschews reality?), either your armor is designed to protect you from a level of weapon, or it isn't.

Besides, plasma weapons at S7 would be a -4 modifier, and ignore power armor anyway. It really becomes a simpler system that has an almost identical result.

The difference would primarily be in Assault, where Marines would become infinitely less survivable.

I've always hoped they would replace AP with a different system, and I've always hoped for something more like:

AP = - to armour save.
Cover = + to armour save.

That way you can have different AP values for different strengths, rather than using Strength Modifiers and Armour Piercing special rules.

And I kinda wish that Evasion had made it in from the January 2012 "leak". Some kind of system for:

Movement = -1 to hit.
Bigger Target = +1 to hit.
Reduce number of shots by 1 = +1 to hit.

And for Pistol Strength in combat, and moves to be set like DnD 4th Ed actions, and...

You can see where this is going. I'll stop now.

[Wolfshade]

So I've got a targeter +1, within half range +1, but you're behind a wall -2, with a stealth cloak -1...

I prefer the AP system and cover saves to be honest. 2nd was just unweildy with all of its modifiers for this that and the other

[Diagnosis Ninja]

So I've got a targeter +1, within half range +1, but you're behind a wall -2, with a stealth cloak -1...

I prefer the AP system and cover saves to be honest. 2nd was just unweildy with all of its modifiers for this that and the other

Like I said, my ideal system, not the best system. I don't see how modifiers are seen as needlessly complex though, and it would be a perfect opportunity for Gee Dubs to release a set of markers and whatnot.

2nd Ed was unwieldy when you look at the factors.

Multiple Wounds
Damage Dice
Range modifiers
armour modifiers
The list goes on...

But one or two sources wouldn't make much of a difference. Keep +/- to hit in the BRB, put +/- stats in psychic powers and codexes.

It can't be more complex than it already is, to be honest.

[magickbk]

I think at a certain point, the game doesn't need to be that detailed for its scale. A game like Necromunda works really well with the old system because there are very few models, all acting as individuals. A game with the scope of 40k benefits from speed of play. Although I had a lot of fun with my friends back in the day playing 2nd Edition, I don't have time to spend 8 hours playing a game anymore.