Chaos: Domination or Destruction

[ElectricPaladin]

My question is this: in your opinion, how evil is Chaos, really?

From a certain point of view, it seems like the Ruinous Powers really view themselves as the rightful gods of the galaxy. Some material from the Horus Heresy novels implies that there are worlds - like the world Lorgra came from - where the Chaos Gods were worshipped in benevolent guises. This implies two things: firstly that the Chaos Gods have benevolent guises, and secondly that when they are worshipped, they are inclined to adopt them.

The Emperor, on the other hand, can be seen as "striking" first, through the doctrine of the Imperial Truth. By imposing atheism on the worlds he conquered, the Emperor was declaring war on faith - and in the sense that the Chaos Gods are created and nurtured by the passions of intelligent beings, and that mankind is the only major race that still feeds the Chaos Gods (Orks = spoken for by G/Mork, Tau = Warp blind, Eldar = cut off from the gods in various ways, Tyranids = Tyranids) - war on the gods.

So, if Chaos won, would they destroy mankind, or would they simply try to break mankind down until we could be forced into faithful worship? Would the Chaos Gods remain the ruinous powers, or would our submission cause them to adopt their gentler aspects?

Feel free to propaganda at me, you zealous Chaos players you, but I'm genuinely curious.

[Deadlift]

I really only have ever had much of an interest in Nurgle, he may be the chaos god of rot and decay, but everything I have read about him implies he is a rather jolly fellow. Nurglings and plague bearers all have a smile on their faces.
Grand father Nurgle can't be all bad in my book.

From Lexicanum
All the Chaos gods are embodiments of the hopes, fears and other strong emotions and concepts generated by the mortal races. In Nurgle's case, the source of power is the living's fear of inevitable death and disease, and their unconscious response to that fear, which is the "power of life", the motivating power of mankind and other races.
Nurgle and his daemons, in contrast to their putrid appearance, are jovial and friendly in demeanor. His daemon servants and mortal followers usually demonstrate a disturbing joviality and joy at the pestilence that he inflicts, seeing the plagues as gifts and the cries of their victims as gratitude rather than agony. This is demonstrated on the Daemon World of Bubonicus, where an endless chain of crazed revellers circle the planet's equator in a never-ending dance.
Nurgle is often referred to as Grandfather Nurgle, Father Nurgle or Papa Nurgle by his followers because of his paternal nature.

[DarkLink]

Just because the Imperium, as the "good" guys in the setting, aren't particularly nice, doesn't mean that trying to slaughter everybody in existance for the past ten thousand years for no reason other than "we decided we don't like you" becomes less evil than it would otherwise be. It's not comparative.

[ElectricPaladin]

Just because the Imperium, as the "good" guys in the setting, aren't particularly nice, doesn't mean that trying to slaughter everybody in existance for the past ten thousand years for no reason other than "we decided we don't like you" becomes less evil than it would otherwise be. It's not comparative.

Well, sure. My sympathy is not with Chaos (<-- plays Imperium and Tau). However, I'm curious about Chaos's agenda, and trying to resolve their conflicting representations.

[FireHazard]

Hmm... tricky.

The Ruinous powers (already implying non-benevolence) are formed from our emotive states, as I understand it (and frankly, as far as Tzeentch is concerned, I still don't). The emotions seem to be our more negative ones - greed, lust and violence for example. This suggests to me a negative state of being for the Gods.

I think that whilst the Gods undoubtedly crave worship, I'm not sure that they would 'be nice about it'. Except, as Deadlift rightly points out, Nurgle. He just wants to hug. Just keep some Kleenex and Beechams to hand and you'll be fine :)

Another theory is to suggest that, as the mortal races of the galaxy essentially birthed them, the Gods just want to be recognised, accepted and be a part of the material universe that gave them form.

[Nabterayl]

Chaos isn't evil, it's just limited. What makes it monstrous is that it [i]is[/] limited. I find it best to understand the Ruinous Powers by asking, "What does this god say in response to racial inequality?"

Khorne says, "It is right and good that you are outraged by this injustice and wish to destroy it."
Nurgle says, "Injustice makes you stronger."
Tzeentch says, "You, by your actions, can change this for the better."
Slaanesh says, "You need to focus on what brings you pleasure, not other people's problems."

These are all true statements, as far as they go. The tragedy of Chaos is that the gods cannot conceive of any other response, and each of their responses is inappropriate to follow as an exclusive rule. So:

At some point violence is no longer constructive. But Khorne says, "EVERYTHING can be solved with ENOUGH violence."
Living through bad things can make you stronger, but that doesn't make the bad things good. Nurgle says, "If this bad thing brings character growth and community togetherness, it must be good! Let's make MORE of it!"
At some point change is beyond any person's control. But Tzeentch says, "It's not beyond your control - you just need to learn more sorcery to MAKE it under your control."
Everybody needs to take time or themselves, but at some point you have to go through hardship to get anything worthwhile done. Slaanesh says, "Why bother? You're only doing ANYTHING to make yourself feel good, at the end of the day. So just keep doing the stuff that makes you feel good RIGHT NOW."

None of which is evil, per se. Just monstrous.

[DWest]

From what I've read, the best way to put it is Chaos is "evil" in the sense that the Tyranids are "evil": They are driven by an insatiable hunger. The Chaos Gods need their followers to worship them, and need those followers to commit as extreme of acts as possible in order for the Gods to survive and thrive. It is the fact that the Ruinous Powers cannot ever exist in balance with the mortal realm which makes them truly evil. The IoM may be ruthless, uncaring, even cruel, but at the end of the day they draw the line at continuing to exist. You don't see the Ecclesiasty forcing the Tau to worship the Emperor, or a Space Marine Apothecary injecting Orks with gene-seed which forcibly re-makes their body into a new Space Marine. Chaos does those kinds of things because it must, in order to survive.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Nabterayl has it best. The Chaos gods aren't "pure evil"; they're just fundamentalist extremist ideologies. Any ideology pursued to an extreme becomes damaging - the Chaos gods are no exception. The more you follow only one path, the less open you are to a fuller view of things.

Ultimately, every faction in 40K is pretty much evil, in that they are all prepared to commit acts of violence, degredation and horror in the names of causes that are, frankly, bonkers.