GW goes hard over proxies - 100% GW in their tournament...

[Denzark]

Just saw that GW have released the 2013 Throne of Skulls rules, for their tournaments at Warhammer world. At link:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf

Of note, no proxies, and their definition of proxies.

Also, amusingly, 100% GW components!

Is this chapterhouse related or just GW getting tough?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I wouldn't say it's solely chapterhouse, but apparently some of their talk over the last gamesday expressed frustration at third parties releasing "generic" miniatures. It's a shame that they're cutting down the resources available to the players who want to take part in their tourney, but I can understand why, I suppose :/

[Kirsten]

I wouldn't say it was specifically chapter house related, they have had tournaments in the past with the 100% games workshop stipulation, a friend of mine entered the warhammer doubles maybe five years ago and it was much the same then

[craniumdamage750]

It has always been this way when GW runs their own event. I have been attending tournament since 2000 and this has always been the case. Non-GW events are usually pretty ok with using other models. I know in my gaming circle it has always been as long as the models are WYSIWYG and they can easily represent the models they are good to go.

[Bigred]

While I agree that it seems draconian - I have to come down with Games Workshop on this one.

They are a minis manufacturer and host their own events - it only makes sense to lock out the competition.

That said, there is a vibrant independent tourney/event scene growing out there, so no worries, let your conversion skills go crazy!

[kingsfan2099]

While I can understand GW coming down this hard against non-GW models or even bits it doesn't really affect any of us here in the States. I mean they don't support any tournaments here and I can't really see GW putting on any tournament I'd want to go to over the likes of BAO, Adepticon, NOVA open, Wargames Con, or Feast of Blades to be honest. I understand they put out the rules and minis for the game I play but they basically said they were done with the tournament scene in America so whatevers Gdub.

[Kawauso]

I understand GW's stance on this, and it makes sense.

Personally I would find it a little upsetting, though, being unable to play with my IG or Thousand Sons armies - the IG all have heads from Pig Iron and my Thousand Sons are/will be heavily converted using a lot of custom bitz... At the end of the day each and every model has, at its core, at least the legs and/or torso from the basic GW kit from which is has been heavily upgraded. In other words, I've already paid GW the same money they would normally receive for those kits, and -on top- of that paid a good deal more to make them look truly unique.

Thankfully, I don't go to tournaments...so I guess you can take or leave my opinion/feelings on that basis alone. :) As you were.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think I agree with the general sentiment of this thread.

It's GW's game, GW can make the rules. However, I think it's a mistake. They're going to alienate a lot of players. The minis wargaming scene is a weird creative community with a lot of flow, a lot of give and take. It's part of what makes it so cool. With this draconian policy, they're basically telling a lot of the most creative players to go away, only people who use 100% GW parts are welcome. Well... GW isn't the only game in town - if they ever really were - and I don't think there are as many serious artists as their used to be who will still be able to participate.

But, hey, it's your game...

[Denzark]

I don't know about stateside, but the accepted convention here (although never seen in writing) was 50% GW. I can empathise why they are doing it. However, by saying non non-GW components, that, RAW, denies the use of bitz from old toys or non-wargaming model kits - parties that aren't the competition. That would mean my Landraider on the chassis of an Emhar WWI tank (pictured) which I got permission to use at ToS before, would by RAW, be illegal. Which is a shame as Rogue Trader positively encouraged such creation.



http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy257/denzark/LandraiderConv.jpg

[imperialpower]

It is a GW event to show off and promote their models, I see no problem with the 100% GW rule at one of their own events.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. To use an analogy, you can't eat your Burger King in a McDonalds.

And if you're coming round mine, it's my rules you go by. No difference here.

[BatMarine]

I actually just got a kick out of saying that if you gave a space marine a "gnarly chainsword" he could be a Chaos Space marine... Even though not all Chaos Marines have Chainswords now...

[Hunter]

As long as the rules concerning non GM models are clear ahead of time , i can fully understand why from both a business and a player perspective.

As a player i seen plenty of cheep *** conversion that just *** to the confusion when playing with new people , non official minis and conversions just pose to many questions.

the other issue "concerning cheep *** conversions" is respect , back in the 4th edition i built up a pretty reasonable daemon hunter army and payed a pretty penny for it plus many weeks of painting , then someone comes along with a bunch of SM termies with poleaxes stuck to there power fists , very little effort made to convert them even to make them look like the classic models "i own a couple".

The term righteous indignation describes pretty much how i felt , i payed premium for my minis and i felt he was just being cheep so i refused to play him .
Funny thing is a year or so later i ended up buying his termies on the cheep , broke em apart and rebuilt them with leftovers from my bitz box and now they fill out the ranks in my first company and you can't tell em apart from the rest of my termites beyond the occasional heavy glue line.

[silashand]

they basically said they were done with the tournament scene in America so whatevers Gdub.

Seconded. Until they start supporting decent tourneys here in the US then the Indys can do what they like. They gave up on the tournament circuit so what should we care what they want to allow/disallow in their events?

[magickbk]

I'm all for conversions, and a well done army looks fantastic, but in a tournament setting, it can get a little annoying when you have to constantly ask what weapons are because your opponent has used a bizarre selection of toys and third part things. That said, I hate the competitive scene. I do enjoy the old GT format, but the complaints on that were basically that it wasn't a competitive format.

[Cpt Codpiece]

if i remember right was there not a blood angels army on parade that used a one of machinators baneblade kits? im sure it was on the GW site about a month ago.

seems weird they say this now (i know they have in the past as well, but still timing seems weird), unless its the new line cinema deal again.

[Houghten]

Oddly enough the restrictions on proxies seem slightly more relaxed from what I remember them declaring last year.



The term righteous indignation describes pretty much how i felt , i payed premium for my minis and i felt he was just being cheep so i refused to play him .

I would call that "elitism," rather than "righteousness."

[Uncle Nutsy]

so, what happens when I bring in a list that features Vect or Sliscus? Am I not allowed to use either because the representing models doesn't have 100% citadel parts?

I find that bizzare because games workshop encourages you to create models, yet say they can't be used in a tournament if they don't have 100% citadel parts.

[Vlad78]

IMHO, this is a DISGRACE and its one BIG reason not to go to their tournaments..
I can understand that they are willing people to use their kits, but they shouldn't forget it's a hobby first and foremost.

What if I don't like the sismic hammer on my ironclad? am I forbidden to make one using plasticard?

Do they really think I will ever buy one of their ugly stormraven if i can't add the chapterhouse kit or heavily kitbash it myself?

The 50% limit was perfectly legit and intelligent. It forced people to bring GW toys while letting them use creativity.
THIS is just the dumbest move I've ever seen since the dropping of the bits sale service.

They'd rather make better kits and CHEAPER as well instead of enforcing stupid limitations that kill the hobby.

[Mr Mystery]

Hardly kills the hobby. Don't like the rules, don't go.

I don't go to Tournaments and as such can do as I jolly well please.

And if you want to represent Vect or Sliscus, convert them up from GW bits and pieces. Thus, non-issue. No proxy does not equate to no conversions.

[Defenestratus]

Glad I just blew $200+ for custom resin bases for all my minis.

Oh well.

[isotope99]

I'm not sure they include bases in the restriction, I've seen quite a few at various events but they may toughen their stance at some point.

Obviously plasticard and green stuff is OK, as is home casting I believe as long as you made the mould yourself.

Toys and historical models I'm less sure about. I know that they've allowed those toy alien eggs as spore pods before but historical tanks are probably off the approved list.

[ElectricPaladin]

Obviously plasticard and green stuff is OK, as is home casting I believe as long as you made the mould yourself.


Does that mean it's ok if I make a cast of another company's model, then use that cast to make a bit and use that bit in the conversion?

[Blackcloud6]

What about paint? Is it a "component?" Say, I used some Tamiya or Model Master paints on my GW models, would these be allowed?

[Wolfshade]

I don't think paint would be an issue.
I can see where GW is coming from their game, their tournament, their rules. Simples.
The instore events used to be 75% GW components.

[Psychosplodge]

I thought they'd always been essentially GW models only to any GW event?

[Gotthammer]

They often had rules like 75% GW parts or "majority GW parts" rather than a strict 100% ruling. I wonder what they'd say about some of the crazy scratchbuild armies though.

[Wolfshade]

That is a shame for those for sure. You can see where they are coming from with the "life for like" bits. Though I also guess it makes it easier to see WYSIWYG stylee. Hopefully, though this will not discourage people from some of those brilliant conversions

[eldargal]

I don't actually have a problem with this. Really if you do have an issue with this in GW stores or tournaments, then try and find a games club or start one nad make your own rules.

But I do know people who have had older citadel miniatures in their armies and run afoul of overzealous, ignorant enforcers at GW stores so I hope they aren't too firm in the execution.

[Psychosplodge]

But I do know people who have had older citadel miniatures in their armies and run afoul of overzealous, ignorant enforcers at GW stores so I hope they aren't too firm in the execution.

I think this is where they need to be careful.

[Blackcloud6]

I don't think paint would be an issue.
I can see where GW is coming from their game, their tournament, their rules. Simples.
The instore events used to be 75% GW components.

Thank you. It would be a bummer to get kicked just because of a paint scheme.

[Wolfshade]

Thank you. It would be a bummer to get kicked just because of a paint scheme.

In terms of practicality, it would be very difficult to tell if something is a GW paint or not.
If the colour is not quite correct the argument against is that you have mixed GW paint to make the colour, how could they tell the difference :)

[Caitsidhe]

<chuckles> "The tighter you clench your fist, the less sand you can hold." It makes no difference to me what rules Games Workshop sets up for the tournaments in their stores or the big events. Their stores (here in the USA) are terrible, both small and inconvenient for tournaments. I have never found travel to the so-called "big events" worth the time. All this is going to do is generate more participation and non-GW sponsored events at independent retailers. Most people like doing conversions and including models that they feel look right. Telling them they can't do that or you can't come isn't going to make them say, "I'm sorry; I owe you all my money and shouldn't presume to think I can use anything but you product. I'm a sinner." Most people will be amused, annoyed, or apathetic.

[Blackcloud6]

In terms of practicality, it would be very difficult to tell if something is a GW paint or not.
If the colour is not quite correct the argument against is that you have mixed GW paint to make the colour, how could they tell the difference :)

Makes sense.

[inquisitorsog]

Since the very first time I'd seen rules for a GW sponsored tourney, I've seen a restriction about "GW only". They further have restricted you in the past from using even LoTR minis as conversion bits in non-LoTR games.

The big tourneys often have their photos get turned into marketing material. Not only does GW not want to give free advertising to their competition, but UK copyright law can get weird, at least if you're used to US standards of fair use. So, they don't even want to open the can of worms of what would happen if they showed, as promotional material, an image of a game in progress that had a non-GW/non-player created piece.

[Denzark]

Just as an aside, I thought I would add clarity on a couple of points:

1. This is specifically Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World - don't know for 100% fact that similar would apply to any other tourneys. I know it would make sense, but then GW could issue a standard tourney pack - which it doesn't - so not convinced.

2. I have never seen 50% rule written down - only talked about.

3. I totally get 'my house, my rules'. Also that there is no need to advertise your own competition - I have no problems with that.

4. i do however think it is a shame if they apply it to scratch build, or conversions using things which aren't GW bitz, but ARE NOT GW competitors. I am thinking back to codexes (IG) with a command Chimera with a 1:32 bradley turret, the Deodorant bottle hover tank, etc. All those things, zoid weapons, etc, would as I understand it, be ruled out - a shame.

[Anggul]

Meh, I don't see why we need GW to organise tournaments at all anyway. Anyone can organise a tournament, no-one needs them to do it.

[Durendin]

I entirely understand the "feel" of the idea of only using 100% GW products at GW events but unfortunately Games Workshop haven't provided the materials to make this happen.

Say I want to field Inquisitor Valeria with some of the myriad options of Inquisitorial henchmen that Games Workshop provide no model for (along with any other example you wish to mention). I think the ball morally isn't in their court.

[Sainhann]

Well first off I would never play a game of 40K that is under 2000 points.

Second I have converted quite a few models, and have added in some House Escher models into my Imperial Guard army.

My Imperial Guard Cdr is a Sisters of Battle model.

My Chimeras are M2 Bradley's for the Imperial Squads and the a Warrior for the Cmd Section.

http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/katalog/en/135-Military/Academy-135/M2-Bradley-US-Army-Infantry-Fighting-Vehicle-IFV::7418.html

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2004/november/first-looks/academy_warrior.php

If I could get my hands on around 30 High Elf Maiden Guard I would have my three veteran squads. But they are not easy or cheap to get.

Hell I could see having problems with them over my Battlemaster miniatures because the chances any of their employees actually knowing that they were made by GW just might be slim.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Hardly kills the hobby. Don't like the rules, don't go.

I don't go to Tournaments and as such can do as I jolly well please.

And if you want to represent Vect or Sliscus, convert them up from GW bits and pieces. Thus, non-issue. No proxy does not equate to no conversions.

you're missing the point. What if there's a sword from another company that I think looks better? what if there's a cape available from another company? an accessory? a helmet? I want my models to look like I put some THOUGHT into them. Instead if I were to go to this tournament, my duke would look almost exactly like someone else's duke because I've had a limited amount of parts to choose from. Think about it.

I'll make a Vect the way I want to make him, and I'll use whatever parts I WANT to use. As far as I'm concerned, GW can suck eggs on this one. I have more fun building models the way I want and I'll use them in tournaments if I want to. If GW doesn't like the parts I used creating an awesome model I made for a tournament, too bad for them.


and when have I ever brought up proxies? I'm talking about conversions.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

At the risk of being accused of not using my 'noggin' again (after the last time I dared comment on proxies), I'll say that I like the 75% rule. It allows for some flexibility but generally keeps gamers within logical parameters. In the end though, if GW is footing the bill I suppose they can decide whatever they like. I do think it narrows the creative aspect of modelling in the game.

[Wolfshade]

For the majority of gamers this rulling makes absolutely no difference; since the majority of gamers will not be playing in tournaments at Warhammer World...

[magickbk]

But I do know people who have had older citadel miniatures in their armies and run afoul of overzealous, ignorant enforcers at GW stores so I hope they aren't too firm in the execution.

I've seen this happen, and was able to interject and explain to the staff member when and where the model came from. Since I was well known in the area as a former staff and guy who's been playing forever, my word was accepted. I've taken the Inquisitorial Henchmen army list as an excuse to paint up tons of random old stuff that's been laying around unpainted since Rogue Trader, so I can see this sort of thing happening to me if I took the army to an event with these kinds of rules.