Specialist Weapons

[Nabterayl]

The Specialist Weapon special rule states:


A model fighting with this weapon does not receive +1 Attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the Specialist Weapon rule. (BRB 42)

But the rules for fighting with two weapons state only:


Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get +1 Attack. (BRB 24)

and again:


If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons. (BRB 51)

So ... what does it mean to be "fighting with" a Specialist Weapon? Are you only "fighting with" a Specialist Weapon if that is the weapon you "choose ... to attack with" when it's time to strike blows? That seems like the correct interpretation to me.

Which would mean that while a Specialist Weapon cannot receive a bonus Attack from a non-specialist weapon, it can give a bonus Attack to a non-specialist weapon.

Does this all seem right to folks?

[Tynskel]

I am going with you cannot gain a bonus from a specialist weapon, unless it is a specialist weapon.
That's the way has always been.

[Nabterayl]

It was in 5th edition, to be sure (I don't remember the 4th edtion wording on lightning claws). But I'm not sure I can see the argument for that effect from the text. The rules for getting, or not getting, bonus attacks from Specialist Weapons have to be grounded in the "fighting with" language, right?

There are two natural interpretations of "fighting with:"
"Fighting with" could mean "equipped with" (i.e., carrying into battle).
"Fighting with" could mean "choosing to attack with within the meaning of page 51."
I don't see any others.

2 has the odd result that a sword cannot grant an extra attack to a power fist, but a power fist can grant an extra attack to a sword.

1 has the odd result that a model with 2 non-specialist close combat weapons and 1 specialist weapon cannot gain a bonus attack ever, because he is "fighting with" a specialist weapon merely by owning it.

So which of the two interpretations are we to conclude is the best? The odd consequences of 2 seem less odd to me than the odd consequences of 1.

EDIT: For those who are curious, the 5th edition rules were:


Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

Recall that in 5th edition a normal weapon and special (!= specialist) weapon always had to use the special weapon, so in 5th edition you would never be able to ask, "Does this power fist give an extra attack to my chainsword?" because you would never be able to use a chainsword instead of your power fist. If you asked, "Does this power fist give an extra attack to my power sword?" the answer was plainly no - not because it was a power fist, but because models fighting with two different special weapons of any kind "... never [got] the bonus attack for using two weapons" in 5th edition.

So we have sort of a new scenario here. A model with a power fist and a chainsword can attack with the chainsword in 6th edition, and there's no hard-and-fast rule that you can never get a bonus attack from using two non-identical special weapons.

[Tynskel]

4th and 3rd editions had similar wording as 5th.

the specialist declaration allows mixing and matching of specialist weapons. It seems mighty inconsistent to allow mixing and matching of all weapons, especially with a 3 prior editions.

[Nabterayl]

All right. Do you have an interpretation of the text that gets you to that result, or is that just your conviction of what the text is supposed to mean, notwithstanding the actual words used?

[dreadnoughtguy]

the first rule you quote is explicit that you must have two specialist weapons to gain the bonus.

the second does not contradict the first only adds to the topic and says that with two melee weapons you typicly gain +1 attack. It also makes small disclaimer. It in no way over rides the other rule.

The third is only talking about which bonuses and penalties to stats you use when in combat.

If you were to have a chain sword and power fist you can eithor attack at base I base S ... or ... I reduced to 1 and S x2. You would not be eligible for a +1 to attack since you do not have two specialist weapons no matter which weapon you chose to attack with.

[Nabterayl]

the first rule you quote is explicit that you must have two specialist weapons to gain the bonus.
I don't mean to be combative here, so please don't read that into my tone, but I do want to hold people here to what 6e actually says. Am I to take it from this that you believe a model is "fighting with" a power fist, even if he is making his actual attacks with a chainsword, power axe, or other Melee weapon that is not a Specialist Weapon?

If so, do you also believe that a model (i) carrying two close combat weapons and a power fist and (ii) choosing to fight with one of his close combat weapons (iii) would not receive a bonus Attack?

If not, why is the first model "fighting with" a power fist, but the second model not?

EDIT: Or are you suggesting that there are actually three levels of ... let's call them use, that a Melee weapon can have:
Level 1 - the weapon the model is making attacks with
Level 2 - the other weapon, or weapons, that the model is fighting with
Level 3 - the weapon, or weapons, that the model is carrying but is not fighting with
... the notion being that a model can be "fighting with" a weapon in that it is attempting to claim a bonus Attack from it, notwithstanding the fact that the model is not attempting to attack with that same weapon?

[Tynskel]

All right. Do you have an interpretation of the text that gets you to that result, or is that just your conviction of what the text is supposed to mean, notwithstanding the actual words used?

Only precedent.
Precedents are pretty powerful.

I have 3 editions of precedent here. This rule has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that combination of 'specialist' weapon combos. It is no longer restricted to pairs, but now to any specialist weapon.