Redeeming the Assault Marine

[ElectricPaladin]

The assault marine, it seems, is much-maligned by us players of the power armored factions. And it's true, they have a number of damning flaws. They are an assault unit without any advantage that sets them above most other assault units, which limits their utility as a close combat unit. They're as resilient as any other marine, which is to say, quite, but not necessarily resilient enough to take the kind of punishing AP 3 and 2 weapons that are so common these days, which limits their utility as a vanguard unit, running ahead of the main force. They're mobile, but one of the main ways to get them where you want them is deep strike, which is unreliable at best (though not, I'd argue, a foolish tactic).

It used to be that some power armor codices had special rules that made these guys more effective. The way Furious Charge and Feel No Pain used to work, for example, made them great in Blood Angels armies... for a little while.

6th Edition has been kind to them. Overwatch can hit hard, it's true, but it's unreliable. Hammer of Wrath, if you can finesse it, can be quite killy. Dangerous terrain got a little less dangerous, which makes deep strike a little more viable.

But, the question remains, how should we use these guys?

I have some ideas of my own, but I'll chime in later. For the rest of you: discuss.

[Deadlift]

I love them, I use mine as a shock unit

x 10 with the captain armed with power sword and storm shield and melta bombs. accompanied by a chaplain. 40 plus attacks on the charge with rerolls. not to be sniffed at. I think space wolves have it even better with skyclaws who each have 5 attacks on the charge. 6th ed made assault marines a whole lot better with the free attack before the assault even begins. I think the main problem they have is that there are some other quite attractive fast attack units in the Space Marines codex. Speeders, Attack Bikes and Talons are all potent if used correctly. Me I prefer men on legs and Assault marines do it for me every time. Last game I had was a doubles and they destroyed x 2 units of chaos Havocs and then went on to take down a triarch stalker with the help of my TH/SS Termies getting the drop from behind.

This is how I like them best, As a hammer and anvil tactic with my TT/SS.

I have to admit I have been tempted to try a huge Death Company army using assault packs, would be pricey but devastating if used correctly.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I agree - run them in big units with a Chaplain, and throw them at targets they can marmalise, and you can't go too far wrong.

[Wolfshade]

One of the problems with Assault Marines, including Vanguard Vets is when people try and use them in piddly 5 man squads, in order to whether incoming fire they need to be full 10 man squads otherwise they will just be overwhelmed.

[DWest]

I played Blood Angels through a large portion of 5th, and couple things to add which are still relevant:
-definitely go 10-man if the squad is intended to do anything, as you need the bodies. Assault squads are almost Orky in the way that they die like flies to deliver the big scary melee units in the middle.
-Chaplain or Captain up front is much more powerful now, as he can Invuln a lot of things that would just drop a regular Marine and palm it off on 2+ if that goes wrong.
-run Flamers if you can find the points, because people will try to counter-charge to steal your momentum.

I would have to argue against jumping DC though, only because they're not a scoring unit so they just cost too much for what they do. Dante + Sang Guard however, that's frightening now. Sang Guard themselves feel like they were designed for 6th.

[AdamHarry]

-Chaplain or Captain up front is much more powerful now, as he can Invuln a lot of things that would just drop a regular Marine and palm it off on 2+ if that goes wrong.


just to clarify this - You can't roll the invulnerable save and the the Look out sir. In this case, you'd have to make the look out sir first and then you could roll the invulnerable save. it changed in the FAQ - http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf

But to add to the discussion, I would also check out running Assault Marines in Drop pods. i know, you lose the jump pack, but 10 marines coming down safely and delivering two special weapons where you need them is nothing to laugh at. On top of that, they have more of a punch than a tac squad and can hold up the enemy advance long enough to get your heavy hitters into position.

[DWest]

just to clarify this - You can't roll the invulnerable save and the the Look out sir.
Huh. I had missed that. Thanks for pointing that out.


But to add to the discussion, I would also check out running Assault Marines in Drop pods.
This is where I would put Death Company now if you have 'em. They don't get quite as good of gun options as regular Assault Marines, but Relentless means you can load up on Bolters for dual-purpose work, and if it lands in the right spot, you opponent has 1 turn to burn down 10 FNP Marines before his day gets ruined.

Also, with Drop Pods, don't forget the storm bolter! So many people just leave the pod alone once it's down, but it's already paid for, may as well use it. I might even consider buying the Deathwind launcher if a tank-buster squad is riding inside and you're expecting to see a bunch of transports around. It's not super-amazing, but the occasional "wait, what just happened" moment is worth it.

[ElectricPaladin]

At the moment, I'm considering running my assault squad in two different ways:

1) Rhino Wrap

6th Edition hasn't been the mechopalypse that it was predicted to be, but vehicles did get a bit more fragile. And however much it did get easier to hide a vehicle behind terrain and get a little bit of a save, a little more of a save never hurt. The thing about assault squads is that they can potentially be just as fast as a vehicle. That's what gave me this idea.

Put a pair of rhinos behind an assault squad screen. As the rhinos rush towards the objectives, use the assault squad's speed and mobility to keep the rhinos getting that intervening unit 4+ cover save. Anything that gets close enough to melta the rhinos stands a good chance of getting shot up or assaulted. This squad would probably be best equipped with flamers, as you can count on them being charged.

2) Hammer Hammer

This strategy would also involve running the assault squad alongside a vehicle, though in this case you probably want to run them hiding behind the vehicle. Have them accompany a land raider filled with assault terminators up the field. The relatively hard-hitting hammernators can rush out of the vehicle, taking the overwatch shots and locking the unit in combat, preventing further overwatch. Then the assault squad can jump over the land raider and deliver the killing blow. As an added bonus, when you do finish the combat, you can use the consolidation move to place whichever unit is least valuable in a screening position for the unit that's more valuable, depending on the situation.

With this tactical use, it doesn't much matter what the marines are equipped with because they're not going to be shooting much. I recommend plasma pistols. They're pricy, but versatile and killy, and as pistols, they don't reduce the unit's melee hitting power.

• • •

I'm going to kit mine with plasma pistols, mostly because I think pistols are more versatile than flamers, and I want to be able to use the assault marines in a variety of ways in the same list.

[DWest]

One thing to keep in mind, intervening units only give a 5+ cover save (6ed, pg 18), but that's the same as smoke and you can still shoot back at least.

Just to double-check, is this for Codex marines or Blood Angels? Cause if it's Codex, I'd agree w/ Plasma Pistols, but if it's BA, I'd say go meltaguns; you lose 1 CC attack for same range but higher str and 5 pts cheaper.

[ElectricPaladin]

One thing to keep in mind, intervening units only give a 5+ cover save (6ed, pg 18), but that's the same as smoke and you can still shoot back at least.

Just to double-check, is this for Codex marines or Blood Angels? Cause if it's Codex, I'd agree w/ Plasma Pistols, but if it's BA, I'd say go meltaguns; you lose 1 CC attack for same range but higher str and 5 pts cheaper.

I'm thinking of these strategies for codex Marines. For Blood Angels, I'd imagine that you'd want to use assault marines as objective-grabbers and main combat troops.

Speaking of which, I recently noticed that you can take two plasma guns in a BA assault squad. This is increasingly an attractive option if you're using assault marines as your primary troops choice...

[DarkLink]

Grey Knights love Assault Marines.

[ElectricPaladin]

Grey Knights love Assault Marines.

Is that so? Why?

[DarkLink]

It's pretty obvious. Assault Marines are mediocre at best in combat, have zero long range firepower, and have to get close to do anything. GKs just shoot them with storm bolters, and kill anything that's left with power weapons. It's a pretty easy win for GKs.

Assault Marines are only good for punching things weaker than them, and their only real threat is a couple of reasonably fast moving special weapon. Not terrible, but not something that a lot of armies are afraid of.

[AdamHarry]

It's pretty obvious. Assault Marines are mediocre at best in combat, have zero long range firepower, and have to get close to do anything. GKs just shoot them with storm bolters, and kill anything that's left with power weapons. It's a pretty easy win for GKs.

Assault Marines are only good for punching things weaker than them, and their only real threat is a couple of reasonably fast moving special weapon. Not terrible, but not something that a lot of armies are afraid of.

This is true. And also why I brought up the Drop Pod Idea.

Dropping a double plasma GUN assault squad and lighting up that same GK squad makes it a little more manageable.

On top of that, drop pods still let you 6" back when the unit gets out. Worried about Warp quake? drop the pod a bit over 14" away, then deploy the unit back in 12" Rapid fire range. ALSO, drop pods will let you dictate the attack angle if played correctly. meaning you can pick out which side/models are closest and basically snipe them...if you're lucky or your opponent didn't think about that.

Anyhow, sorry about the threadjack -- I just think Drop Pods got a lot more useful and jump packs have let me down.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I know most armies aren't afraid of Assault Marines - but they're pretty good at killing a lot of armies' basic troop choices or tying up/taking out long range weapons and such. They're not necessarily going to win you the game (without the sort of tricks Blood Angels have up their sleeve) but they can fulfill an important role.

Yeah, if you're using them against GK Terminators, that's silly. But not everything is meant to be used against everything, that's the whole point of a tactical game. :)

[DarkLink]

Or against any Grey Knights. Or most other Marines, because normal Marines have better range and firepower for cheaper. So you're left beating on Tau, Guardsmen, etc. There are units that can do that for cheaper. Again, they're not useless, but just because they have a use doesn't make them good. Assault Marines are mediocre.

[ElectricPaladin]

Or against any Grey Knights. Or most other Marines, because normal Marines have better range and firepower for cheaper. So you're left beating on Tau, Guardsmen, etc. There are units that can do that for cheaper. Again, they're not useless, but just because they have a use doesn't make them good. Assault Marines are mediocre.

If you're set against assault marines, what would you do with those points in the average list? What do you think fulfills the role of "disruptive aggressive unit" better?

[DWest]

What do you think fulfills the role of "disruptive aggressive unit" better?

I'm not ready to give up on Assault Marines, but for a good disruption unit, go with a Bike Squad. 225 points (same as 10 assault marines, 1 flamer, power fist) nets you 5 Bikes w/ 2 Flamers and a Power Fist + 1 Attack Bike with Multi-melta. T5, Jink, and Hammer of Wrath make this squad a major threat wherever it shows up, and it has an effective 36" threat bubble (12" move + 24" shooting distance for the T-L Bolters and Multi-melta). Even better, it's large enough w/ 5 Bikes to be a troops choice if you include a Captain on Bike.

Now if only white wasn't such an annoying color to paint . . .

[DarkLink]

Well, I don't know if the SM codex really has any great options. Sternguard Vets in Drop Pods or something, maybe, they're pretty awesome. I'm not a SM expert, I just know that I can basically ignore a unit of Assault Marines until I feel like killing them, and facing multiple units of them is practically handing me the game. They're good against some armies, like Guard, but otherwise they're not of great utility. Not sure what you would replace them with.

[ElectricPaladin]

It's occurred to me that - if we're going to wishlist - some way of giving assault marines Hit-and-Run would make them a lot more useful. They'd be able to drop, do some shooting, charge into combat, do some damage, and then make an enormous fallback move. If you played your cards right, and the dice smiled on you, you could potentially keep an enemy unit tied up for turns at a time.

[Kevin48220]

My thought is that if you are going to drop pod a squad of assault marines, then is there any real difference between that and using a drop pod to land a tactical squad?

I don't think there's much, if any, in terms of cost. The stat lines on the units are the same, and the costs are all but the same. A 10-man unit of Assault Marines with 3 plasma pistols (2 on grunts, 1 for the Sgt) using a drop pod costs (by my count) about 5 points more than a 10-man unit of Tacticals with a plasma gun and pistol that also uses a drop pod.

The real difference is, IMO, with the FOC. If you use a drop pod (or 2) to insert FA Marine Assault Squads to harass/tie up the enemy while you're getting troop/heavy/elite units into place, it might be a great way to use them. It essentially allows you to increase your allowance of troop units without having to take a special character, and to "fast attack" without having to use bikes or other vehicles that might be vulnerable on the approach.

Any way you look at it, it's a nice speed bump for your opponent. They can ignore your assault guys, which means they'll be vulnerable to further fire and assaults, or they'll have to spend a turn or two dealing with them. But, for sure, I think it's best to assume that none of them will survive. I treat them like suicide troops--if they live, that's great, but I'm not counting on it.

[Tynskel]

What grey knights cannot deal with as easily as they used to are units in 2+ armour. Sanguinary Guard, terminators, honor guard are units that can kick grey knights in the nuts and get away with it.

assault marines are shock troop units: they should only realistically chasing things they can kill easily, and if they cannot, then they should be supported by a unit that can to add in some extra armor rolls.

[DarkLink]

Storm Bolters. Grey Knights never really dealt with 2+ armor in assault. They sprayed them down with Storm Bolters. Rends from Psycannons and power weapons in assault were just icing.

[Tynskel]

Storm bolsters is like saying bolsters, so, that just means to me focuse fire. I can see rending being useful. Seriously, though, every time I was destroyed by grey knights in 5th it was all the force weapons.

[Anggul]

Assault marines are great. If you're Blood Angels so they're troops. As it is, they're one of those things which, while nice to have, you often don't have room for in the end because you need to fit in the necessary things first.

[DarkLink]

Storm bolsters is like saying bolsters, so, that just means to me focuse fire. I can see rending being useful. Seriously, though, every time I was destroyed by grey knights in 5th it was all the force weapons.

It depends a little on the GK player, I suppose. If they played Purifiers, then that's probably true. Same with Paladin/Terminators, but they're still capable of dealing with 2+ armor in assault. If you play a more balanced mix, and/or lots of GKSS, then storm bolters solve almost everything.

[Tynskel]

The holy bolter goes a long way.

I have spent many a year using terminators. They are great for smashing most things with guns and powerfists.

[Martel732]

There are simply too many units in the game that the assault marines can't beat in HTH reliably. You can lump in the BA now that we lost our access to init 5 charges. Assault marines are pretty crappy compared to chaos marines or grey hunters in particular.

[Anggul]

There are simply too many units in the game that the assault marines can't beat in HTH reliably. You can lump in the BA now that we lost our access to init 5 charges. Assault marines are pretty crappy compared to chaos marines or grey hunters in particular.

I find it's never good to compare anything to Grey Hunters though. They're ridiculously cheap and we all know it. 15pts for a marine with CCW and Counter-Attack, and getting two special weapons for half of what most people pay for one? Why Kelly, why this madness, then going on to write the greatness that is Dark Eldar?!

[Tynskel]

Yeah, uh, you aren't using assault marines if you are playing space wolves or chaos, aren't ya?

Assault marines are fine. There are plenty of units they slam their way through. They are a counter assault unit in codex marines, and your troops for blood angels. They have never been meant to attack things by themselves, but instead support other units, like terminators or tactical marines.

[Martel732]

Yeah, uh, you aren't using assault marines if you are playing space wolves or chaos, aren't ya?

Assault marines are fine. There are plenty of units they slam their way through. They are a counter assault unit in codex marines, and your troops for blood angels. They have never been meant to attack things by themselves, but instead support other units, like terminators or tactical marines.

Assault marines for the smurfs are hard to justify because they don't score. But the BA losing access to init 5 makes their assault scheme very dubious at best. I use them as counter attack units now for BA, and I wouldn't use them at all for smurfs.

I will compare them to grey hunters because grey hunters exist. They are a potential competitor. Grey hunters are an easy way for a BA jump list to just straight up lose. But its not just them. I've seen incubi slice and dice their way through 2.5 BA assault teams. Tyranids are self explanatory. Grey knights are tricky because of all the force weapons. There are a *lot* of HTH options out there that can beat assault marines.

And then there is the lack of shooting. In a shooty edition, having only a bolt pistol sucks. Hard.

[Tynskel]

hahahah! Incubi– who would have thought that a unit with higher initiative and power weapons would cut down marines...

Assault Marines, hands down, are fast. And speed is your friend in a 'shooty' edition. Again, assault marines are a counter charge unit. They always have been. Anyone thinking that they just can kill anything is full of bugga. No, you use them to aide a slaughter unit. In the case of Blood Angels, that's Terminators, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, or a Furioso.

And when it comes to 'options', you are limited, because you either take your assault marines, or you take allies, or in the case of blood angels, you can take both... what's to lose here?

[Martel732]

hahahah! Incubi– who would have thought that a unit with higher initiative and power weapons would cut down marines...

Assault Marines, hands down, are fast. And speed is your friend in a 'shooty' edition. Again, assault marines are a counter charge unit. They always have been. Anyone thinking that they just can kill anything is full of bugga. No, you use them to aide a slaughter unit. In the case of Blood Angels, that's Terminators, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, or a Furioso.

And when it comes to 'options', you are limited, because you either take your assault marines, or you take allies, or in the case of blood angels, you can take both... what's to lose here?

The same DE player didn't have as much luck against my list. But I had lascannons and autocannons to shoot down all his spiffy skimmers with some kind of field that reduced the range of weapons. I rolled up the 4++ save for my divination libby and so I was able to curb stomp the incubi. But this was because divination is great, not because ASM are.

[Tynskel]

again, I say, your argument about incubi is redonkulous. They go faster and have AP2 weaponry. You shoot those boys, and there are plenty of units in the BA codex with guns.

Assault Marines have always been a counter charge unit. if you want a unit to carve their way through stuff, you used terminators, furiosos, death company, sanguinary guard, and vanguard veterans.

What makes Tacticals good is their close range shooting.
What makes Assault marines good is their speed and ability to mop up units.


Maybe another way to put it. Assault Marines are just tactical marines with more attacks and less shots. They cost basically the same amount of points, too.

[Martel732]

again, I say, your argument about incubi is redonkulous. They go faster and have AP2 weaponry. You shoot those boys, and there are plenty of units in the BA codex with guns.

Assault Marines have always been a counter charge unit. if you want a unit to carve their way through stuff, you used terminators, furiosos, death company, sanguinary guard, and vanguard veterans.

What makes Tacticals good is their close range shooting.
What makes Assault marines good is their speed and ability to mop up units.


Maybe another way to put it. Assault Marines are just tactical marines with more attacks and less shots. They cost basically the same amount of points, too.

It doesn't have to be incubi. That was just an example that came to mind. Grey hunters can do everything you just listed off for tacticals and assault marines. Except better and cheaper. So who is the real assault army?

[Tynskel]

Grey Hunters are slow.
BAM!

[Martel732]

Grey Hunters are slow.
BAM!

Not if you put them in metal bawkses. Then they can move 18".

[Tynskel]

See, Assault Marines can move faster: 27"

6" + 2D6" +3" +D6".

Add Dante to the picture (Hit and Run): 39"

6" + 2D6" +3" +3D6"

Possibly even faster! 33" and 45" (no re-rolls for assault, though).

Oh, and I get to fire, too. Grey Hunters can only move 12" and fire.


However, this whole thread is not about Grey Hunters. It is about how Assault Marines are still worth their weight in salt.

[Martel732]

See, Assault Marines can move faster: 27"

6" + 2D6" +3" +D6".

Add Dante to the picture (Hit and Run): 39"

6" + 2D6" +3" +3D6"

Possibly even faster! 33" and 45" (no re-rolls for assault, though).

Oh, and I get to fire, too. Grey Hunters can only move 12" and fire.


However, this whole thread is not about Grey Hunters. It is about how Assault Marines are still worth their weight in salt.

Assault marines are okay. That's about as far as I'll go with them. I'm not sure that they're even okay for the smurfs.

[Tynskel]

They can be really good if you take shrike. Fleet + jump packs is really fast. Combine that with some terminators=great. That, and vanguard vets getting to deep strike and charge from a safe distance works well, too.

[Xenith]

Quick Fix:

Assault marines: 1 in 3 models may take: Melta, plasma gun, flamer, plas pistol, power fist, power weapon etc etc for the usual points.

Being able to stick 3 power weapons and then the seargeants gear in there will go far to making the unit better, and also allow for mixed units, 2 special weapons in 2 combat squad, serge and a power weapon in the other.

Veteran assault marines should provide the same number of attacks with fewer bodies.

Choosing between assault marines and veteran assaults should be: "Do I want a large footprint unit that can put out damage and absorb a bit in return, or a small unit that can unleash the same damage, but each casualty will hurt"

[Wolfshade]

I think the quick fix is making them a little over the top IMO.

The assault marine is a solid choice, you just have to realise that you cannot expect them to charge into any target and expect them to come out whistling on the otherside.

They should be hard tasked to take out Hive Tyrants, very large mobz of boyz.

Similiarly with Vanguard Veterans, they are still ultimately marines not mini captains, still on S4 T4 I4 3+, I perhaps would have liked for them to get furious charge but ho-hum.

[plawolf]

Assault marines are fine. They are not a hammer unit that can steamroll any opposition, they are a utility unit. You use assault marines to disrupt enemy firebases so they are not shooting at more important stuff or pin juicy targets in place so your slower deathstars can get their mitts on them.

You need to use the right tool for the right job, it's not really the assault marines' fault if you the player send them against targets they are wholly unsuited to dealing with.