What are the issues with the prequels?

[Mr Mystery]

So, more Star Wars on the horizon, so I felt we should discuss the problems with the prequels compared to the originals.

For me, it's not the acting plot or script. That's never been the series strong suit.

It was the execution of the battles. Not epic enough, or not enough tension. Space battles were a let down, and land ones moved too fast. The inevitability of the imperial advance on Hoth worked beautifully. You got real tension. Clone battles? Visually gorgeous, but no serious tension.

Other difference? The goodies were never really on the backfoot, which meant the potential for outright heroics was missing. No chance of a noble sacrifice. Oh there was genuine tragedy, particularly with Anakins fall from grace, and order 66 being (literally) executed.

Yet some of this was unavoidable. We knew what happens to Anakin. We know the Empire wins. And unless they go with existing sequel stories, that can be avoided, bringing back the unknown.

Now, contribute and discuss!

[Bigred]

1) They were childish in tone and subject matter. If you watch interviews with Lucas, you can see he is well read and really wanted to deal with large themes of decay of empire and such, but it all came off as being overtly designed to work as cartoon and video-game spinoffs.

2) The acting is atrocious. Aside from Ewan MacGregor, the cast is bad. Anakin in particular is almost unwatchable, his romance with Padme stomach-churning and decent actors such as Christopher Lee, Sam Jackson and Liam Neesan chew the scenery with abandon.

3) Lucas has a massive hard-on for special effects. He has been proponent of all digital and green-screen sets, and will often destroy a scene with expensive and unrealistic CG when none was needed.

4) A refusal to respect adult subject matter. I visibly winced when Anakin and Padme rolled down the hill in soft focus. Subjects such as genocide and war on a galactic scale have no emotional weight and only serve as a vehicle to watch spaceships blow up and for the droids to get in some one liners. Empire let you hear Solo scream while being tortured, and showed you the real look of horror as Leia watch him lowered into the carbon freeze. Where was even a single moment like that in the prequels?

So in short I'm actually kinda glad Lucas sold out. He's getting older and Lucasarts was one of the last remaining mega franchises totally under the ownership of an individual. It was only a matter of time until he sold out to someone. I'm dreaming we get a set of movies more in theme with the original trilogy. But we'll probably a mashup of Tron and the Avengers - with Ewoks and Gungans... *sigh*

[Denzark]

CGI Yoda.

JJB.

No one cares about the gungan army and anyway the droids would have massacred it in short order.

Clones - Boba Fett? WTF? And a kiwi accent retcon as a result?

Geonosians. Rubbish.

Anakin more wooden than MDF. Both incarnations.

a 7 y.o. Piloting a Naboo fighter.

Midiclorians.

There were a few good bits but few and far between.

[Deadlift]

:) I liked them.

Watching Yoda going postal for the 1st time gave me goose bumps.

[DarkLink]

You guys are overthinking everything way too much. It's dudes with laser swords and magic powers, in space. Roll with it.

[scadugenga]

Sorry, Dark.

It may be that you're too young.

Most of us who look on the prequels as the wrong kind of tragedy are older and remember the originals..offtimes from the big screen.

Though to be fair, Lucas started crapping on the originals with his re-edits in the late 90's.

While I did appreciate the focus on the Jedi order, there was too much bunk. Kiddie stuff (Gungans), taking the mysticism out of the Force. (Midiclorians...wtf, really???) A distinct lack of personal drama and loss. No emotional attachment to any of the characters. Perhaps one of the coolest badasses ever to grace the Star Wars 'Verse dying like a punk before we got to see what he was really capable of. (Maul)

And perhaps the greatest eff-up after Midiclorians and Gungans--everyone spoke English.

What also helped make the trilogy so good was also that Lucas didn't direct Empire or Jedi.

Though to be fair, the choreography in light saber duels was much improved over the original trilogy.

Except for one part--the wtf "I have the higher ground" bit at the end of Sith. Really?!? Jedi who make Cirque du Soleil look like beached whales suddenly care who's got the higher ground?

Bah.

[wittdooley]

Yeah. I'm with dead and DL. I'm not looking for "No Country for old men" in my Star Wars. While Jar Jar is obnoxious, Hayden Christensen is overmatched, and the romance is a bit wooden, I never went into them wanting "adult subject matter." For as "dark" as people pretend empire is....it isn't. There's more "darkness" in 5 minutes of Chris Nolan's dark knight series than there is (or should be) in the Star Wars films.

But then again, I wake up every Saturday at 9am so I can watch the Clone Wars animated series.

[Chris Copeland]

I also agree with Dark Link. Too many nerds in their 40s (or adjacent ages) built up all kinds of nerd-rage when Episode One came out because it didn't live up to their childhood memories... that's the key: childhood memories. The original trilogy is coated in the sheen of nostalgia for folks my age (I was seven years old when Star Wars came out). Most of my friends poo-poo the new movies because they don't live up to movies they grew to love before they were ten years old... they saw the new series through adult eyes and compared them to the original movies that they'd seen through childish eyes.

Star Wars is about space knights, laser swords, and robots. Seriously. Let this generation enjoy their own Star Wars thrills without a bunch of curmudgeons grousing about how much better things were back in their day. I remember the Ewoks. They were the Gungans of my generation. The new movies rocked. Cheers.

[scadugenga]

I also agree with Dark Link. Too many nerds in their 40s (or adjacent ages) built up all kinds of nerd-rage when Episode One came out because it didn't live up to their childhood memories... that's the key: childhood memories. The original trilogy is coated in the sheen of nostalgia for folks my age (I was seven years old when Star Wars came out). Most of my friends poo-poo the new movies because they don't live up to movies they grew to love before they were ten years old... they saw the new series through adult eyes and compared them to the original movies that they'd seen through childish eyes.

Star Wars is about space knights, laser swords, and robots. Seriously. Let this generation enjoy their own Star Wars thrills without a bunch of curmudgeons grousing about how much better things were back in their day. I remember the Ewoks. They were the Gungans of my generation. The new movies rocked. Cheers.

Star Wars is The Hidden Fortress in space. Not just space knights, etc.

It was also done intelligently, unlike the prequels.

Eowks garnered their share of disdain, but they were nowhere near as bad as Gungans.

And let's keep the insults down a bit, hey?

[Chris Copeland]

And let's keep the insults down a bit, hey?

I think you are joking but the interwebz can sometimes make it hard to tell. I seriously hope I haven't insulted anyone. I keep scanning my above text and can't find any insults... I'm so confused...

[scadugenga]

I think you are joking but the interwebz can sometimes make it hard to tell. I seriously hope I haven't insulted anyone. I keep scanning my above text and can't find any insults... I'm so confused...

Okay, perhaps "insult" was a bit too intense.

Personally, I'm old enough that "nerd" was an insult that got someone wondering why they thought they should apply that to the person holding them against a wall 6" off the ground. (I have very few 'piss off" buttons and that, oddly enough, is one of them.)

But let's put that aside for a moment.

This is a thread for discussing what issues people have with the prequels.

Not really a debate "are the movies good or not" topic.

You, Dark & Witt, however, have missed that point, instead commenting negatively on the people who have issues with the movies.

Deadlift had a perfect attitude in his response: He made his statement about what he felt about the movies, and not other people.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

This discussion reminds me of the scene in "Spaced" when Simon Pegg burns his Star Wars memorabilia. I didn't think that the prequels were horrifically bad or that the originals were immaculately good, but then again I'll take Farscape, Firefly, Aliens, Battlestar Galactica, and Trek before Star Wars. I'm probably playing way too far afield for my opinions to matter much on this thread.

[DarkLink]

Sorry, Dark.

And you called someone else's comment here insulting;)?



It may be that you're too young.


It's precisely because I'm young. I watched those movies I don't know how many times when I was a kid. Watching the originals as an adult, I'm like "hah, these are cheesy as hell, but they're still awesome". So whenever someone whines about the prequels being too cheesy, I laugh.

[eldargal]

Phantom Menace:

Whatsisname that plays Anakin. Little snot can't act and just does the irritating cutesy thing a lot of American child actors/actresses tend to rely on.
Jar Jar Binks.
Midichloriens.

Attack of the Clones:
The Romance.
Jar Jar Binks

RotK:
The Romance
'She's lost the will to live'

Really as Dark et al have said the original series are cheesy and a bit cliche. They are good films, and scifi classics, but what really makes them great is nostalgia. I grew up on the original, non special edition films and I love them. I also enjoyed the prequels despite the silliness. But the way I see it Jar Jar may be annoying but he is no sillier than highly trained military troops never, ever hitting their targets ever at relatively close range in many cases. There are other issues too.

Star Wars is the quintessential Space Opera, if you want really cerebral Scifi you need to look elsewhere.If you want a jolly good adventure romp in space with surprisingly compelling characters, decent acting and lots of prettiness then Star Wars is it.

[Denzark]

Its not all bad - I personally rate the lightsabre fight in TPM as the best of the 6 films - I don't rate CGI yoda, amusing as it was.

[eldargal]

I thought CGI Yoda was pretty good personally, people get worked up about the lack of real puppet but to me the real issue was the voice, if they had got someone other than Frank Oz to do it I would have been enraged.

The fight lightsabre fight scenes were pretty nifty.

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah not getting the issue with the CGI. It was incredibly well done. Would puppets have been better? Hard to say. But seeing as Lucas revolutionised special effects with the original trilogy. The dude is a relentless tinkerer and likes the new. Only one I have issue with is Jabba, he just didn't look quite right.

[eldargal]

Agreed, but he was a hutt, and hutts are wonderful soe he gets a pass still.

[Mr Mystery]

So what do people want to see more/less of in the third trilogy? I've read today via Facebook linkage that it will be a new story, rather an adaptation of an existing novel.

Me? Space battles. Significant threat. Heroic desperation.

[eldargal]

I'd rather they go before the prequels, perhaps even SWTOR time (3000 years before ANH). We've seen the Republic at its decline and Fall and what replaced it, let's see it at it's peak.

[Mr Mystery]

I think we need sequels. Need to be blind sided again, like Vader's revelation.

[Denzark]

Ah EG, nix on the Prequels. The old republic is turgid pulp scifi where they all have wierd names like exar kun.

We need to see more loveliness from Sienar Fleet Systems blasting across the screens bringing fiiery green death to rebel/new republic scum.

Here's to Soontir Fel and the 181st.

[eldargal]

Sequels will cause a lot of problems, they will either have to fit in with the mass of EU stuff or retcon it or be set so far in the future they won't really be sequels.

What I'd really like is a trilogy of films showing the New Republic sinking into monolothic burueacracy and the Imperial Remnant fighting against them. But there is another problem, do we really want to see 60 year old Han Solo, Leia Organa Solo, Luke Skywalker etc? Their absence will be odd given their importance if it is set after RotJ, but recasting them would annoy a lot of people and using the original actors would be problematic to say the least.

[Denzark]

You've got 3 options I can think of. 1 = fast forward to the appropriate year of timeline for their age. So, Yuuzhan Vong etc - what a pile of pish! 2. Do the Beowulf Ray Winston trick. again, a bit weak. Or 3. - Do a 2009 Star Trek and recast. I think the latter would be best.

I agree with remnants versus NR, lots of meat there.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno. I think seeing Luke witness corrision of all they fought and died for has significant mileage.

And more droids. But minus the bumbling voices. They make excellent opponents for Jedi, as they can be horribly chopped and mutilated without upsetting anyone!

[Mr Mystery]

Just thinking.... They want a 2015 release. Probably end of May as a blockbuster.

Ergo, there's roughly 30 months to go. Not long at all to write, cast, film and do post-production. Anyone else thinking the script is done and casting underway?

[wittdooley]

Hmm... Not entirely sure how/why I got called out! All I said was that Star Wars isn't intended to be "hard" sci-fi and therefore doesn't need to deal with more "adult themes." Anyways.

I'd be all about a Old Republic style triology. So much good, juicy stuff in there.

But I have to ask...does NO ONE else like the Clone Wars animated series? Come on now people. Jedis. And more Jedis. It's such a fun show.

[Mr Mystery]

Clone Wars is awesome! And surprisingly brutal. Anakin igniting his lightsabre through a dudes chest? Brill!!!

[ragnarcissist]

i used to really like the darth maul fight scene until my buddy showed me this vid....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw


but the absolute worst part of the prequels was the GD DROID VOICES!!!!
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!

[lattd]

I preferred the battles in the prequels as they show a much better scale of forces, and they showed a better scale of how much is going on in the galaxy. People who complain about jar jar does anyone else find puppet yoda just as annoying? I enjoy both I just don't think there were many great actors in all 6, they were just pretty cool films.

[Kyban]

The worst part was Hayden Christensen's acting, I skip most of his emotional scenes when I watch the movies. Other than that Jar-Jar is a bit goofy and the mediclorians might have been okay if they made sense but the rest is pretty good.

[Mr Mystery]

The scale was cool, but they could have had greater hero involvement. And in space, the fighters didn't do enough. Especially in Episode III.

[Kyban]

The scale was cool, but they could have had greater hero involvement. And in space, the fighters didn't do enough. Especially in Episode III.

They hadn't invented the technology to allow large holes leading to the most critical components yet. :p

[Mr Mystery]

True. But those well cool ARC-10 did nothing but get shot down a lot! I wanted to see them mess up a bridge!

[Kyban]

True. But those well cool ARC-10 did nothing but get shot down a lot! I wanted to see them mess up a bridge!

Not in the same way as a particular a-wing though... :D

[Mr Mystery]

Crashing doesn't count! I think they could have done with making more of the threat, without having to watch Clone Wars.

[Kyban]

Yeah, there are a lot of cool elements that they touch on in the movies but never get any details or due awesomeness.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I want Michael Bay on the scene. MORE EXPLOSIONS!

[Kyban]

I want Michael Bay on the scene. MORE EXPLOSIONS!

How about a combo film: Star Wars 7 directed by Michael Bay and Joss Whedon. ;)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

HO-LY SH*T

Yes. Yes. This should happen.

[Mr Mystery]

Wouldn't really suit Star Wars.

I just want moar star fighters! I love them!

[Deadlift]

I would like to see something centred around the bounty hunters, there has to be scope for some fantastic stories involving bounty hunters. Oh and years ago when I played SWG, I was a Teras Kasi Master and I often made mincemeat of Jedi. I want there to be a Wookie Teras Kasi master, just like my old toon. He was very cool :)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Teräs_Käsi

[Chris Copeland]

This is a thread for discussing what issues people have with the prequels.

Not really a debate "are the movies good or not" topic.

You, Dark & Witt, however, have missed that point, instead commenting negatively on the people who have issues with the movies.

Deadlift had a perfect attitude in his response: He made his statement about what he felt about the movies, and not other people.

Here's the thing, Scad: I think that I'm approaching this thread the right way. As you correctly point out, this is a thread for discussing what issues people have with the prequels. I think I'm doing that. I'm saying that the issues folks have with the newer movies doesn't have much to do with on screen sci-fi cheese. The late 70s/early 80s cheese doesn't seem all that different from the turn of the century cheese. Rather, guys like us (who saw the original movies on the silver screen) fell in love with those movies as children. Those wonderful cheese-fests live in our hearts because we learned to love them so young (much like grey beards around here longing to return to the glorious days of 2nd Edition... I wonder how well 2nd Edition would stand up if released sui generis today).

They went to the movie theaters WANTING that childhood magic back SO BAD. They saw the new movies with adult, jaded eyes and commenced to hate the new films. That is the essence of the problem folks my age seem to have with the new movies. That is what this thread is about.

I find that younger kids have no such hang ups. My eldest son is thirteen. I just asked him what his favorite Star Wars movies are. He said Episode Three and Episode Five are his favorites. I am an elementary school teacher: I get 22 new eight year olds in my class every year. I can assure you that love of Star Wars is going strong out there in kiddieland... which is the point of Star Wars. Cheers, all!

[DarkLink]

I didn't realize being of the opinion that you should just sit back and enjoy the movies, because the old movies are cheesier than the new ones by far and complaining about how the new movies are too kiddish or silly or lack the quality acting to be star wars is silly, was trolling:rolleyes:, especially when the person claiming the trolling told me directly that I was 'too young to understand' what he was talking about.

[Nabterayl]

I remember George Lucas saying something along the lines that Jar Jar Binks was present because Star Wars is supposed to bring joy to children, and being excoriated among [older] fans for suggesting that our beloved Star Wars was essentially aimed at children. But ... as Chris points out, Jar Jar does bring joy to children. Lucas was spot on, for the demographic he intended to target. When I haven't commissioned an artist to make art for me, I can hardly complain that the art he did make wasn't aimed at me.

Lots of little things bugged the fanboy in me about the prequel trilogy (which I actually like a lot as a fanboy, though I don't love them - I can't; I was in high school when they came out), but the only halfway serious objection I had was this: we don't get to see Obi-Wan fail to raise Anakin. We see him as an innocent precocious kid in Episode I, and when Episode II hits he's already a whining teenager. Somewhere in between, Anakin was presented with the School of Yoda ideal of how a Jedi should comport himself, and rejected it in favor of his own fears and insecurities. That is the moment when Obi-Wan fails, and it happens off-screen.

[scadugenga]

Here's the thing, Scad: I think that I'm approaching this thread the right way.

Really?


Too many nerds in their 40s (or adjacent ages) built up all kinds of nerd-rage

Sorry, I don't think that's the right way. At all. In fact,


They went to the movie theaters WANTING that childhood magic back SO BAD. They saw the new movies with adult, jaded eyes and commenced to hate the new films.

you continue to generalize and attribute your perception to every single person who doesn't like the prequels.

That's a pretty grossly inaccurate analogy. Unless somehow you're selectively omniscient enough to know what every single person felt negatively about the movies. Not to state (as I, and others have said) that there weren't good things about the movies--just that the ridiculousness of some glaring issues completely overshadow the good things.

You and Dark, instead of discussing what you liked about the prequels, instead attacked those of us who didn't. I don't appreciate being labeled as a nerd, thanks. (As was discussed earlier.) And no, Dark--I don't think the criticisms are "overthinking" it.


I didn't realize being of the opinion that you should just sit back and enjoy the movies, because the old movies are cheesier than the new ones by far and complaining about how the new movies are too kiddish or silly or lack the quality acting to be star wars is silly, was trolling, especially when the person claiming the trolling told me directly that I was 'too young to understand' what he was talking about.

1) I never accused anyone of trolling. Please stop making assumptions.

2) I"ll apologize for saying you were too young, and leaving it there. It was late-ish, and I should've put more thought into my post. What I meant to say is that you're young (comparatively.) You're formative movie experiences put you at the point where special effects had evolved sufficiently to set a higher bar for storytelling in movies than we had in the 70's and 80's. Star Wars wasn't "cheesy" back then. (Well, not as cheesy as the vast majority of sci fi flicks at the time--it certainly wasn't as cheesy as 1980's Flash Gordon, for example.)

3) But that's okay, you can go on and keep telling me (and others) how we should think and feel about a movie. That's not supercilious or pretentious at all!

[Chris Copeland]

Scad, I FREELY admit that my observation is made entirely based upon observations made in my personal life. Please feel free to take said observations with as much (or little) salt as necessary. You reject my observations? Cool. I welcome that and it is no skin off of my back.

I cannot help that you are offended by/resent the term "nerd." You and I are clearly about the same age and remember what the term USED to mean. Those old meanings have long since been swept aside. Here we are at NERD CENTRAL: a forum wherein we talk about playing with toy soldiers. I have have long since embraced my Inner Nerd and so have all of my gaming friends. In my circles the term is used lovingly. I can't speak for anyone else's. I deeply suspect that nerd, these days, is used more as a descriptor or one who likes SF/manga/video games/tabletop/comics/etc than as a pejorative.

This thread never asked, "What do you LIKE about the prequels?" It is about 'What is wrong with the prequels?" My answer is, "Nothing. There are just a bunch of curmudgeons who like their own childish movies more than THIS generation's childish movies." I am not sure how you find that insulting... truly, I don't.

In silly little threads like this I am willing to make generalizations and broad statements. This is not a court of law. This is not a deposition. It is a lighthearted examination of six silly movies... and I'm willing to treat it as such.

Cheers! Goodnight, Scad! Goodnight, all! Cope

[Nabterayl]

The OP asked us to "discuss the problems with" the prequels. I think it's fine to interpret that as "discuss why people don't like" the prequels, as opposed to "critique the cinematographic merits of" the prequels (though I think the latter is fair game as well).

[Uncle Nutsy]

I'm a massive fan of star wars and I could go in-depth on every episode made.

But at the end of it I realize, that I'm waxing fantastic, being completely pedantic about a series of kids movies and just beating a dead horse.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

By the Gods...

Well isn't this the most stupid argument ever? Films were made, people have different opinions about them... Could we all just move on with our lives?

Ta.


P.S. I love being called a nerd, it's what I am, I like video games, toy soldiers, sci fi, fantasy, etc etc. Also, I'm pretty sure that EldarGal has no problem with me being a nerd, we are Team Nerd. :p

[eldargal]

you continue to generalize and attribute your perception to every single person who doesn't like the prequels.
In my experience talking with people about the prequels it holds true, not all but a good 75-90%. They wanted more childish wonder that the original SW trilogy invoked when they were young enough to miss or gloss over most of the silliness. It isn't just limited to Star Wars, you see the same thing with GW for example, people not being able to accept that the quality ofthe game material han't changed much, rather their perceptions ahd expectations have. People in general have a hell of a time managing their expectations and get dissapointed because they wanted something to measure up to their childhood memories and that can never happen. You can witness the same thing with Star Wars The Old Republic too, a good percentage of the criticism is based on the fact that it isn't SWG, and people wanted it to be.

[Wildeybeast]

I agree with a lot of the problems people mention, but there is a pretty major one that I'm surprised no one has picked up on. If you watch the films 'in order' as Lucas 'always intended' the prequels utterly ruin two of the best moments in the the later ones. You get to the 'I am your father' and 'there is another Skywalker' lines and your response is 'and? I knew that, like, three films ago'. Two of the few moments of genuine dramatic tension and surprise in the whole saga are robbed of all that by three plodding films of back story explaining precisely why those things happen. Watch Episodes 4-6 on their own for the first time and those are genuine wow moments.

Also for me is the demystifying element of the prequels. Boba Fett is cool precisely because he is masked, unknown badass and one the few people in the entire galaxy with the cojones to stand up to Vader. Making him some whiny Kiwi with daddy issues just ruins him. And Vader is possibly the most awesome baddy of all time with a great redemption scene at the end. Turning him into an annoying child and an angsty, vacillating teen just makes him seem like a loser and wimp, turning his final redemption not into a triumph of his strength over the dark side and the power of his master, but making it seem like yet another example of his weak willed and indecisive nature, another example of him being a slave to his emotions who is simply doing something he should have done 20 years ago but never had the courage to. For me it's like those endless horror film sequels - they make a decent film with an interesting set up that does well, then we get x million sequels exploring the 'background' of that concept to death. They are never as good as the original and serve only to rob those films of the mystery that was an integral part of their success.

[Wildeybeast]

Oh and I nearly forgot: If Lucas genuinely wanted to start his franchise this way, why didn't he make the prequels first?

Answer A) Because he knew 3 films of plodding plot exposition with annoying, whiny & boring characters who you have no emotional investment in would never be a success.
Answer B) These are an afterthought based on the success of Episodes 4-6 and like so much of the Star Wars franchise, a shameless and grubby cash in.

[eldargal]

Actually he always intended there to be six films, he said as much in interviews back in the early 80s. There were even rumours of three trilogies back then but he dismissed those as idle speculation.

I disagree about Boba Fett and Vader though. Everyone was a whiny little brat/vacillating teen once, it's part of growing up. If anything it shows how far they came. Boba Fett was a whiny little brat and he became one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy because his father was murdered in front of him and he was leftto fend for himself, by and large, in a vast, harsh galaxy. Similarly Anakin was a nice if cutesy kit and a regular arrogant male teenager who was manipulated by others and ended up a genocidal mass murderer and super-badass. With Anakin it was his arrogance that led him to fall, not some inherent evilness. No one starts off as a badass.

[Denzark]

I read somewhere (think it was the official guide to the Smithsonian Star Wars exhibition) that GL called ANH 'Ep IV' because he wanted to amake it seem like part of an ongoing saga. He then stretched draft ideas out in either direction, so 1-3 and 7-9.

[Chris Copeland]

Well isn't this the most stupid argument ever? Films were made, people have different opinions about them... Could we all just move on with our lives?

P.S. I love being called a nerd, it's what I am, I like video games, toy soldiers, sci fi, fantasy, etc etc. Also, I'm pretty sure that EldarGal has no problem with me being a nerd, we are Team Nerd. :p

Dale, I honestly don't see this as an argument. Rather, it seems like a generally pleasant round-table discussion amongst peers over a light-hearted topic. This is not heavy. We're just having a nice bullsh!tting session. Cheers!

PS: Team Nerd? I will ride with you!

[lattd]

On a side note has anyone seen the lego star wars films they are quiet amusing.

[Nabterayl]

Wildey, I think that's generally true for consuming any series out of publication order.

I like the fall of Anakin as plotted (if not as acted/directed). Episodes I-III bear out the monstrous idea that the Jedi Code (or, if you like, Yoda's then-ascendant interpretation of it) is right: that the rules are different for Jedi, that attachment is an invitation to the Dark Side to ruin you as a person, that Jedi are not just forbidden to love but are forbidden to love for good reason. Obi-Wan fails to turn Anakin into a Jedi because he loves him too much. Anakin joins the Sith because he loves Padme too much. Episodes IV-VI then bear out what the audience wants to be true: that love can conquer evil.

As for Boba Fett, nothing in the movies suggest that he has daddy issues. They only suggest that he probably became a bounty hunter because his father was.

[DarkLink]

1) I never accused anyone of trolling. Please stop making assumptions.

2) I"ll apologize for saying you were too young, and leaving it there.

It's cool, it's not like I really care about it. You just seem really irritated about something for some reason, for what seems like nothing more than the fact that our opinions are different than yours.



3) But that's okay, you can go on and keep telling me (and others) how we should think and feel about a movie. That's not supercilious or pretentious at all!

See what I mean? All I did was point out that the arguments that the prequels were too silly is pretty much invalidated by how cheesy the originals were.

[Deadlift]

I suppose now would not be a good time to mention I just sat down with the kids and watched "Lego Star Wars" the animated series.

I rather enjoyed it too :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No one starts off as a badass.
I dunno, I think you probably did! :p


Dale, I honestly don't see this as an argument. Rather, it seems like a generally pleasant round-table discussion amongst peers over a light-hearted topic. This is not heavy. We're just having a nice bullsh!tting session. Cheers!

PS: Team Nerd? I will ride with you!

Yeah! It looks like it's lighthearted, that's why offence is being taken at comments! :D

[Uncle Nutsy]

By the Gods...

Well isn't this the most stupid argument ever? Films were made, people have different opinions about them... Could we all just move on with our lives?

Ta.


P.S. I love being called a nerd, it's what I am, I like video games, toy soldiers, sci fi, fantasy, etc etc. Also, I'm pretty sure that EldarGal has no problem with me being a nerd, we are Team Nerd. :p

Yeah exactly. Who gives a toss, really. Every time I see an argument about how x film was better and how y actor is murdering the precious trilogy, I just shake my head and secretly wish people would just put a lid on it and just enjoy it for what it is. We don't need incessant, circular arguments about a series of movies. It's as bad as arguing about what van damme movie was the better one.

Basically, these movies are good for spending a few hours on the couch, munching on popcorn. Putting a lot of thought into them (and their continuity) just ruins it. Enjoy it for the popcorn munchers that they are and don't sweat the small stuff.


Yeah I know people here are saying it's a light hearted discussion but.. when the star wars films are brought up in a group of nerds and geeks it almost always turns into a full-on argument.

[scadugenga]

In my experience talking with people about the prequels it holds true, not all but a good 75-90%.

See--I've never lost that "sense of wonder" about movies. I didn't go into Phantom wanting to "recapture that feeling in my youth" that many either did, or were accused of. I wanted to see what the next gen. of movies would provide.

And then the disconnects started happening. And that's what started killing the movies for me. Every disconnect (midiclorians...sheesh) just jolted me out of the story.

A good film, however "cheesy" it may be--is all about preserving its internal continuity. You need to keep the viewer engaged. When the viewer disconnects from the film (as I did, repeatedly through Phantom) it ceases to be "good" in the mind of that viewer. Thus, disappointment. Series of films (like Star Wars, Highlander, etc.) have a harder time maintaining that internal continuity. But they should at least try.

STtOR was a fantastic game--until it became like every other trudging MMO out there. I was digging it heavily until I hit that barrier.


See what I mean? All I did was point out that the arguments that the prequels were too silly is pretty much invalidated by how cheesy the originals were.

What you actually did was tell us what we should be doing (IE, not "overthinking" it.) First thing you learn in conflict resolution, mediation, and crisis management is that you never tell someone what they should or should not be feeling. (and liking or disliking something is a feeling.) You don't have the right to tell someone what they should feel. You don't have ownership over that.

In fact, you're basing your own argument on your own feeling (that the originals were cheesy.) That's never been established as fact, and it cannot be. Because the cheesy-ness factor is something each individual has to decide for themselves.

If you had said "I think the originals are cheesy, so it didn't impact my enjoyment of the prequels" there wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) have been any issue.


No one starts off as a badass.

Not true. George Thorogood did. Well, if you believe his song, at any rate. ;)



Well isn't this the most stupid argument ever?

No. That would be the effing ridiculous argument a friend put forth yesterday equating Lucas' use of child jedi in the clone wars to child soldiers in Africa and their usage in the Iran-Iraq war. Yes. It was that migraine-inducing.

I'm blaming election fever, or maybe eating rye bread infected with Claviceps purpurea fungus. It was a serious head/desk WTF day.

So, here's a challenge for you folks: Go find a copy of Star Wars: The Phantom Edit. (You may be able to find it online for free--I don't know) Watch the original, and then watch the Phantom Edit.

You will be amazed at how good the Phantom Edit is, compared with the original.

[Wildeybeast]

Actually he always intended there to be six films, he said as much in interviews back in the early 80s. There were even rumours of three trilogies back then but he dismissed those as idle speculation.

I disagree about Boba Fett and Vader though. Everyone was a whiny little brat/vacillating teen once, it's part of growing up. If anything it shows how far they came. Boba Fett was a whiny little brat and he became one of the biggest badasses in the galaxy because his father was murdered in front of him and he was leftto fend for himself, by and large, in a vast, harsh galaxy. Similarly Anakin was a nice if cutesy kit and a regular arrogant male teenager who was manipulated by others and ended up a genocidal mass murderer and super-badass. With Anakin it was his arrogance that led him to fall, not some inherent evilness. No one starts off as a badass.

If that was the way he planned it all along (which I agree is probably true), why not start with episodes 1-3? It would make much more sense. Answer because episodes 1-3 are boring plot exposition setting up 4-6. The only memorable or likeable characters from them are Qui Gon Jin and Darth Maul. Even Christopher Lee and Samuel L Jackson struggle to produce characters I have any engagement with because the films are so damn boring. The franchise would never have taken off if he started with Episode 1.

As for every being whiny kids, that's true but it doesn't mean I want to watch 3 bloody films about it. I think you've missed my point. My issue is not with what their backstories are, it's that I don't want to know about them full stop. Part of Boba's inherent coolness is his air of mystery. Take that away and he loses something in my view (not to mention the fact that he isn't a Kiwi). Equally with Vader, all you see is the mask right up until the end. You only know there is a human in there because of his actions right at the end and the big reveal of his face (another scene which is robbed of it's power by three films of seeing Anakin's stupid face that you just really want to punch. And don't even get me started on the 'remastering' of that final scene.)


Wildey, I think that's generally true for consuming any series out of publication order.

I like the fall of Anakin as plotted (if not as acted/directed). Episodes I-III bear out the monstrous idea that the Jedi Code (or, if you like, Yoda's then-ascendant interpretation of it) is right: that the rules are different for Jedi, that attachment is an invitation to the Dark Side to ruin you as a person, that Jedi are not just forbidden to love but are forbidden to love for good reason. Obi-Wan fails to turn Anakin into a Jedi because he loves him too much. Anakin joins the Sith because he loves Padme too much. Episodes IV-VI then bear out what the audience wants to be true: that love can conquer evil.

As for Boba Fett, nothing in the movies suggest that he has daddy issues. They only suggest that he probably became a bounty hunter because his father was.

It's certainly true for any series which has been badly written. If Lucas had thought about it for even 5 minutes he would have realised the problem with watching them in 'number order', especially for today's kids who are new to the universe. That he has started his 3D drive with Phantom Menace shows just how little he has thought about.

I agree with your point about the idea behind episode 1-3, it's just done in such a boring cack handed manner. He could have quite easily condensed it all down into one film and still got the message across. I disagree with your points about love. Obi Wan never fails Anakin, Anakin doesn't listen because of his own weaknesses. Obi Wan's only mistake is not taking Yoda's advice that the boy is not suitable candidate in the first place, which is a decision motivated by his love for Qui Gon, not Anakin. Anakin doesn't join the Sith because he loves Padme, he does it because he is weak and selfish, motivated entirely by securing his own desires. He never gets over the childish fear Yoda senses in him and he acts on an almost instinctual, animalistic level, constantly seeking any form of emotional warmth he can get from father and mother figures. A psychologist would probably diagnose him with emotional attachment disorder. If it was true love he would have listened to her at the end of Episode 3. Even after killing the younglings and Mace Windu, he could have still turned back. He can't because he's too afraid, unable to control his own emotions. It's always fear that drives him, never love. One of the few good points of Anakin's story is what it shows about Luke. Luke is motivated by genuine love for his friends and his father and he realises something Yoda and the Emperor fail to grasp, namely that love can be used to provide strength. It generates fears for him yes, but it allows him to trust and rely on others and gives him strength his father never had, the strength to master his own emotions. Luke is capable of forming and controlling healthy emotional attachments in a way his father never could.

Or at least those are my opinions on the matter, other are always available. :)

[Mr Mystery]

Does anyone else feel that in terms of plot setting and advancement, Episode I wasted a lot of time? Now I'm not meaning the time of those watching the film, but the chronology of the second trilogy. We know what it needed to convey, and therefore the time to cover it was finite.

Now this is a statement of my personal opinion, so no need for passionate disagreement, but I feel we just didn't need to know the full background of Anakin? It didn't add much to the overall story, other than his mummy issues. This could all have been done with Anakin already in the Jedi Academy. I mean all Jedi are taken from their parents at a young age. Could have been cool to witness a widening flaw in the Academy bearing terrible fruit, no?

[Psychosplodge]

Boba Fett going from bada$$ ultimate bounty hunter, to whiney b!tch clone with daddy issues.

[DarkLink]

Episodes 4-6 came first, because no one cares about how Darth Vader fell until you already know how awesome Darth Vader is. Luke Skywalker makes you care about what happened to change Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader. I'm not sure how they would have fit more character development without inserting a couple extra movies, though. The issue with the character development in the series was the quality of the writing, not the amount of time dedicated to it.

[Wildeybeast]

Does anyone else feel that in terms of plot setting and advancement, Episode I wasted a lot of time? Now I'm not meaning the time of those watching the film, but the chronology of the second trilogy. We know what it needed to convey, and therefore the time to cover it was finite.

Now this is a statement of my personal opinion, so no need for passionate disagreement, but I feel we just didn't need to know the full background of Anakin? It didn't add much to the overall story, other than his mummy issues. This could all have been done with Anakin already in the Jedi Academy. I mean all Jedi are taken from their parents at a young age. Could have been cool to witness a widening flaw in the Academy bearing terrible fruit, no?

Agreed. Whilst Qui Gon and Darth Maul are the stand out characters of the whole prequel series, the whole film is totally unnecessary. As I mentioned above, you could comfortably cover the fall of Anakin in a single film without it feeling rushed. Though of course that wouldn't make nearly as much money.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I like that in the Extended Universe Darth Maul came back... POWERED BY HATRED!

[Wildeybeast]

What, like ghost Ben, whispering unhelpful and cryptic old man advice to people?