Flamers and Screamers?

[MaltonNecromancer]

So I was reading the "The Unbeatable List" "article" on BoLS yesterday, and was utterly confused because it was totally without context.

I don't own Codex: Daemons, and basically want to know why Flamers and Screamers make such an awesome combo. I get the alpha strike capability is powerful, but why Flamers? Why Screamers? How have they suddenly gone from the way they were in 5th edition (never heard of them, never heard of anyone using them, in the same mental compartment that Khymera, Ogryns, and Masters of The Forge live in) to this awesome, uber unit?

It's a little confusing to me.

[KrewL RaiN]

I have a squad of 5 flamers in my Daemons list and I am flabbergasted on how hard they hit. Breath of Chaos wounds on a +4 with no armour or cover saves allowed (can take invulnerable saves). They also glance on a +4 on armour... yes you can glance AV14 to death. You can also overwatch it. I managed to kill 5 assaulting death company marines with overwatch, and this was before ripping off 2 of the 3 hullpoints off a nearby Dreadnaught (it would be dead if the dice were hotter). They are also jump infantry, T4, have 2 wounds each and quite the bargain according to their low points cost. I'd vomit in my mouth a little if I saw someone running 3 max squads of Flamers.

I have not completed my Screamers yet, so I have no combat experience with them. Their rules are quite yummy though... ap2 armourbane with a turboboosting strike thing... I just dont know the rules off heart.


I also dont get that "unbeatable list" article. It was just a stupidly bad post of a photo of a list with no explanation *rolls eyes*

[DarkLink]

Flamers and Screamers were updated with new rules and statlines, which make them pretty nasty. It makes for a pretty tough lists, given that the missions also made everything scoring.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yeah, when the plastic models came out, a rules update was released in white dwarf that made them very powerful. Prior to that Flamers were quite good while screamers were mediocre.

[miteyheroes]

Flamers lost the ability to have the Bolt of Change, but got better stats. Also 6th ed made Overwatch into a thing - and when you're all armed with template weapons, it's a very good thing. So they're great at alpha strike, and great at not being charged. And all have 2 wounds and a 5+ invulnerable save. Mmm.

Screamers got St 5 Ap 2 Armourbane close combat attacks, and better stats - again, 2 wounds and a 5++. So now people say they're possibly the best close-combat unit in the game.

I guess they'd work well together, with Screamers counter-assaulting anything that survives charging Flamers?

[Defenestratus]

Flamers lost the ability to have the Bolt of Change, but got better stats. Also 6th ed made Overwatch into a thing - and when you're all armed with template weapons, it's a very good thing. So they're great at alpha strike, and great at not being charged. And all have 2 wounds and a 5+ invulnerable save. Mmm.

Screamers got St 5 Ap 2 Armourbane close combat attacks, and better stats - again, 2 wounds and a 5++. So now people say they're possibly the best close-combat unit in the game.

I guess they'd work well together, with Screamers counter-assaulting anything that survives charging Flamers?

Sounds like a good reason to bring back the fortuned mounted seer council.

[MaltonNecromancer]

It is interesting how flame weapons have gone from being "meh" in 5th, to a solid anti-assault choice now. I like the change personally, although Tzeentchian Flamers do sound a little overpowered. Is the solution not something like massed Heavy Bolters/Splinter Cannon?


So now people say they're possibly the best close-combat unit in the game.

How do they stack up compared to something like Necron Wraiths, or the old standby of THSS Terminators?

[Psychosplodge]

I think I saw them twice in 4th, and they didn't like the rail gun ordnance template...

[Tepogue]

How do they stack up compared to something like Necron Wraiths, or the old standby of THSS Terminators?

Both of the above units strike at I1 or I2 (assuming no coils on Wraiths for the moment)

9 Screamers are 225 points.
Each screamer moves like a Jetbike and so gets Hammer of Wrath.
They are WS 3, I4, A3, Close combat weapon is Lampreys Bite which is S5, Ap2 Armourbane.

I'll go worse case scenario to emphasize my points

9 Screamers launch an assault into a 240 point squad of TH/SS terminators.

assuming all 9 make it into base we get 9 I10 Hammer of Wrath hits @ S4
9 hits, 4 wounds. .75 of a terminator dies. (we'll assume you pass all 4 saves)

Sreamers have I4 so go before TH/SS

9 Screamers * 3+1 attacks = 36 attacks.


36 * 1/2 (Hitting on 4+, fear not an issue due to SM ATSNNF) 18 Hits
18 * 4/6 (S5 wounding on 3+) = 12 wounds

12 wounds 2/6( saves failed on a 1 or 2) = 4 dead terminators before they get to swing

2 Terminators swing 4 times 4 * 4/6 (hitting on 3+) = 2.67 Hits

2.67hits wounding 5/6 (2+ needed to wound) = 2.22 wounds

2.22 wounds * 2/6 (screamers save on a 5+) = .74 save

So screamers unit takes 2 wounds, which due to eternal warrior is 1 model.

End of combat results.

8 Screamers are still alive VS 2 terminators.

it should not surprise anyone that the Screamer will kill the last 2 terminators before they get to strike in the following round.

Wraith Numbers

6 wraiths without any upgrades are 210 points.

All of the Screamer numbers work for attacking the wraiths

0.75 wounds inflicted by Hammer of Wraith

36 Attacks
18 Hits
12 wounds
4 failed saves
2 wraiths dead

Even if the Hammer inflicted 1 wound since that doens't kill a Wraith the attacks against the Screamers are unaffected

4 Wraiths *3 attacks

12 attacks
8 hits
8 * 5/6 ( wound on 2+)= 6.66 wounds
6.66 * 2/6 (save on 5+)= 2.22 wounds saved
4.44 wounds inflicted = 2 dead screamers

End Result 7 Screamers left VS 4 Wraiths

2nd Round 2 more wraiths die and 1 more screamer dies
5 Screamers VS 3 Wraiths

3rd round doing the math fast looks like 1 more wraith dies and 1 wound is inflicted onto Screamer unit

Screamer will eventually win with only 1-2 models left and all 6 wraiths dead. Which for equal point costed units is fine by me. it will come down to a weird shift in the dice resulting in someone making really good rolls or someone rolling too many 1-2's at the wrong time.

Looking at the Necron list I see than I can get 5 Wraiths with Whips for 225. I'll have to see if this make a big difference in the end results vs losing 1 wraith model.

[Tepogue]

One additional thing about Flamers that no one has mentioned is the change from 5th to 6th. Glancing Hits now hurt vehicles.

In 5th Flamers could shake/stun the heck out of vehicles.

Now, I can almost always get 4 templates on to a vehicle and knock 2 hull points off. If the dice love me, that can be 4 hull points which destroys any current vehicle in 40k

[DrLove42]

I used to get murdered by my friend running units of 3 flamers under the old rules. Now they're cheaper and a bit more survivable.

They've always been good, but now they're better and 6th edition deep strikes being more forgiveable, and flamer weapons being awesome....they're disgusting.

Not broken. Just horrifying

[KrewL RaiN]

I just hope people dont go over their head thinking that Daemon list is the new Leafblower lol. Playing Daemons is like gambling and not quite an instant win button as people think. Plus the fact that they say all units could score in that tournament would make things rather cheesy to begin with.