Ninja Tau in 6th - 1500 Points

[Sandeman]

Trying to come up with a take all comers list using the Positional Relay in 6th. I am using some Forge World models that are accepted in my gaming group. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

HQ
Shas'el
twin-linked missle pod
positional relay
hard-wired blacksun filter
hard-wired target lock
hard-wired drone controller
shield drone x 2

Troops
Fire Warriors x8
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter

Fire Warriors x8
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter

Fire Warriors x8
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter
- Devilfish w disruption pod

Elites
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x2
plasma rifle x2
fusion blaster x2
multi-tracker x2

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x2
twin-linked missle pod x2
flamer x2

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x2
plasma rifle x2
burst cannon x2
multi-tracker x2

Fast Attack
Tetra x2
targeting array x2
target lock
blacksun filter

Tetra x2
targeting array x2
target lock

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside x3
team leader
hard-wired blacksun filter
hard-wired target lock
hard-wired drone controller
shield drone x2
advanced stabilisation system x3

Hammerhead Gunship
railgun
burst cannon
disruption pod
blacksun filter

[Tynskel]

Remoras would be good for anti flyer

[Aegwymourn]

Might have to many Tetra's if you are using the PR to keep most of your fire warriors off the board till later. I only run 2-3 in my 1500 points and generally have enough markerlight support throughout the game. Also with the changes to slow and purposeful I don't particularly like *** on broadsides anymore (no overwatch) since I run them with multi-trackers. I fine people are much more apt to attempt the long charge if there is no threat of overwatch ruining their day.

[Sandeman]

Thanks for the suggestions.

What would you remove for the Remoras? So what would you replace the Tetra with? If putting multi-trackers on the Broadsides do you run them with Plasma Rifles?

[Aegwymourn]

Personally I would drop the Railhead and one Tetra and try and squeeze in 2 Remoras. I have no luck with Railheads what-so-ever.

I run multi-trackers with just SMS. I run two units of two at 1500. I find with a little markerlight support 2 Railguns and 8 SMS shots do quite well as anti-infantry later in the game once all the tanks are dead.

[JxKxR]

The XV8's with Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster is an odd pair. The Fusion blaster has a much shorter range so that multi tracker wouldn't see much use. I'd put it on the XV8's with burst cannons. Or better yet I run a single Shas'El with twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Iridium Armor, Shield Generator, 2 Shield Drones, This guy soaks up shots and is a pain to try and kill.

[Sandeman]

Thanks for all your help so far.

I have never used Remoras. How do they fair as AA?
How would you group the 3 Tetras?
I was hoping to use the Railhead for its large blast to help against Hordes.
When you use 2 units of 2 Broadsides do you give them Shield Drones?
Is it worth trying to find the points to bump the Firewarriors up to units of 10?

I was planning to use the Helios for anti-heavy infantry.

[Aegwymourn]

No worries. I have yet to use Remoras yet. I have a hard time justifying the money/points. There are not a lot of fliers in my local meta yet. Might change in the future though. Depending on the AV of enemy air the long barrelled burst cannons can glance and they can shoot their own markerlight/missile at the target for extra fun.

Personally I run each of my Tetras separate since I don't run any other fast attack. It gives them a bit more mobility and then I can decide where to allocate them each turn.

Depends on how lucky you feel with that one blast template. My Railhead always scatters by several inches. Also even if you do score a decent number of hits most stuff will have a decent cover/armor save. If it was a bit cheaper I might try to find space for one, but its to many ifs for me.

Yup I run two squads each with MT and a team leader with BSF and 2 Shield Drones. A little expensive but I find people have a much harder time deciding if they want to deal with them since I have two squads of them that are reasonably durable. When I used to run one squad of three they tend to get chewed up fast since people hate railguns.

I personally run 3x12 fire warriors at 1500. Usually on turn 2-4 they get a bit of markerlight support. That many BS5 S5 shots even makes space marines sweat a bit.

Helios Teams are awesome. I use a 3 man squad and either deepstrike them or use them as deepstrike insurance. Remember that Tetras allow a re-roll of the scatter for a little extra reliability. With some markerlight support I've had them kill 4 paladins in a turn of shooting =)

[Uncle Nutsy]

The XV8's with Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster is an odd pair. The Fusion blaster has a much shorter range so that multi tracker wouldn't see much use. I'd put it on the XV8's with burst cannons. Or better yet I run a single Shas'El with twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Iridium Armor, Shield Generator, 2 Shield Drones, This guy soaks up shots and is a pain to try and kill.


I can see why someone would want to do it. three high strength shots at 12", that if all hit, three ko'd 'crons.

[Sandeman]

So I guess if I removed the Railhead I could add more suits, Helios, and bulk up my Fire Warrior units. How many Markerlights per turn is too many? If I remove the Hammerhead does that mean more shots at the Devilfish making it less likely to survive? I wanted the Devilfish for late objective capture but maybe it's not worth it.

Will come up with a non-Railhead list and post it after work tonight. Thanks for all the help.

With the Positional Relay is it best to have more specialised units or generalist?

[Rapture]

Will come up with a non-Railhead list and post it after work tonight. Thanks for all the help.

With the Positional Relay is it best to have more specialised units or generalist?
Removing the Hammerhead with the railgun means that you list will suffer against certain others. The s6 large blast is essential for eliminating Scarabs, IG Command Squads, and 90% of the choices from the Dark Eldar codex.

Eight makerlight shots is generally enough. That will net you four hits. Two for BS and two to reduce cover saves or increase a second unit's BS. But, I don't know how survivable Tetras are. This is why a second Hammerhead could also help by drawing more fire.

I would recommend dropping one Broadside and two Tetras in exchange for either more suits or a second Hammerhead. Dropping the burst cannons in exchange for missile pods is completely necessary. The range advantage alone means that you can reach and touch transports (or anything else) on your first turn. I know you list is based on the relay, but I don't like that thing. You have a limited number of highly effective guns on the table. They need to start working on turn 1. For fusion blasters, deepstriking might be the way to go. Hitting that one tank is generally suicide, though, so don't invest too much in the squad. The other units should start on the table.

[Sandeman]

So it seems that its best to either run multiple Railheads or none. I think at 1500 points having over 1/5th the army as two tanks is a little intimidating. How does this list evolution seem.

HQ
Shas'el
twin-linked missle pod
positional relay
hard-wired blacksun filter
hard-wired target lock
hard-wired drone controller
shield drone x 2

Troops
Fire Warriors x12
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter

Fire Warriors x12
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter

Fire Warriors x10
Shas'ui
hard-wired blacksun filter
- Devilfish w disruption pod

Elites
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x3
plasma rifle x3
fusion blaster x3
multi-tracker x3

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x2
twin-linked missle pod x2
flamer x2

XV8 Crisis Battlesuit x2
plasma rifle x2
burst cannon x2
multi-tracker x2

Fast Attack
Tetra
targeting array
blacksun filter

Tetra
targeting array
blacksun filter

Heavy Support
XV88 Broadside x2
team leader
hard-wired blacksun filter
hard-wired target lock
hard-wired drone controller
shield drone x2
multi-tracker x2


XV88 Broadside x2
team leader
hard-wired blacksun filter
hard-wired target lock
hard-wired drone controller
shield drone x2
multi-tracker x2

So is the Devilfish worth it as my final high AV vehicle?

[Nabterayl]

In my opinion the Devilfish is worth keeping to give mobility, protection, or both to one of your scoring units. Not every game will have three objectives you can easily claim with foot. I think a single Devilfish adds a worthwhile amount of versatility to your list.

[Sandeman]

That's why I wanted the Devilfish. Is it worth the points to have Shas'uis with blacksun filters in the Fire Warrior squads? I am also unsure about the blacksun filters on the Tetras.

[Aegwymourn]

BSF are essentially worthless on Tetras. Since markerlights don't cause wounds there are no "saves" so the only upside to having a BSF is for the twin-linked pulse rifle (also the range on markerlights is 36" which also happens to be the limit of night fight range).

I'm not sold personally on Devilfish, but there are people who seem to really like them. I dunno, if you are going to take one I'd drop the squad inside down to the min of 6 and use them as a late game objective grabber.

[Uncle Nutsy]

bsf useless?

so you want a tetra not to be able to use it's max markerlight distance during night fight?

[Aegwymourn]

"Picking a Target and Night Fighting ... The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away." BRB pg 124. the max range on a Tetras High Intensity Markerlight is, 36". like i mentioned above unless you are worried about cover saves vs the twin-linked pulse rifle there is no point to having a BSF on a Tetra (since there are no saves vs markerlight hits).

[Sandeman]

Okay so no BSF on the Tetras. Would it be worth while to make 4 units of Fire Warriors that are smaller to have more scoring units?

[Aegwymourn]

I have never been a fan of small units of fire warriors. Unless you are only using them to capture objectives late game they drastically reduce in effectiveness the smaller the unit (they take moral tests more often, they require more markerlights, they are easily removed). Have you been using the Positional Relay more to keep units off or just to make sure units come on? I know this started as a Ninja Tau thread but your list is looking quite a bit like my 1500 all comers gunline army. The only differences is that I don't have either the x2 crisis team with plasma/burst and the devilfish and instead have a ethereal, maxed the last squad of fire warriors to 12 and run with a Shield'O instead of the Shas'el.

[Uncle Nutsy]

"Picking a Target and Night Fighting ... The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away." BRB pg 124. the max range on a Tetras High Intensity Markerlight is, 36". like i mentioned above unless you are worried about cover saves vs the twin-linked pulse rifle there is no point to having a BSF on a Tetra (since there are no saves vs markerlight hits).

you forgot that BSF's can also negate the shrouded and stealth aspects of night fighting.

"ignores the effects of night fighting".

So do you want to save five points, or do you want to deny shrouded and stealth? I know how valuable blacksun filters are on Tau units, and in 6th they're worth every point. Keep in mind; I learned how to play 40k with Tau, and nightfighting was part of that learning process. So if I say take them, take them. they will be some of the best points you spend for tetras.

[Aegwymourn]

you forgot that BSF's can also negate the shrouded and stealth aspects of night fighting.

"ignores the effects of night fighting".

So do you want to save five points, or do you want to deny shrouded and stealth? I know how valuable blacksun filters are on Tau units, and in 6th they're worth every point. Keep in mind; I learned how to play 40k with Tau, and nightfighting was part of that learning process. So if I say take them, take them. they will be some of the best points you spend for tetras.

As I pointed out in my last two posts for the markerlight shots (which is the defining shooting the Tetra does) there are no saves ergo shrouding and stealth provide no benefit to the unit being shot by the Tetra. The process of shooting makerlights goes, roll to hit, count hits, place markerlight tokens. At no point does your opponent roll armour/cover/invulnerable saves so having the BSF on the Tetra only would provide benefit to the twin-linked pulse rifle, which very rarely makes any significant impact on the game. I don't see why there is any confusion regarding this.

[Tauownz]

Listen to what Aegwymourn says. You don't need a black sun filter to shoot a markerlight on a tetra as they can see and shoot 36" at night and there are no saves against markerlights either. The only items you need on a tetras are targeting array and a target lock if you're fielding more than 1 in a squad. It also has a built in disruption pod at no add'nl cost. I would recommend a bsf on hammerheads and broadsides. Also remember markerlight hits remove night fight as well as up BS and remove cover, so something without a bsf can now hit something across the board if that markerlight token is used. Example say you get 3 hits with a tetra, 1 can go to up BS, 1 can go to remove 1 point of cover, and the third can go towards removing night fight all together.

[Uncle Nutsy]

No, Aegwymourn, it always goes: roll to-hit into roll for cover/armour/invulnerable. It's always been that way and in 6th hasn't changed that one iota. I dunno where you've been playing that's bucked that sequence of events, but it's wrong. You roll for saves for every weapon in the game, cover, invulnerable, armour... why would it be different for markerlights? Look at the sequence of events (page 18, "REGARDLESS of what's firing at them", page 427). All that's happening with a tag is the to-wound part is skipped. Fact is, the opponent will try and roll stealth/shrouded saves when hit with a markerlight tag.

tauownz: There is no "nightfight removal" with a markerlight anymore. The updated FAQ reads: "A model equipped with a blacksun filter has the Night Vision special rule." What's Night Vision say? "ignores the effects of Night Fighting". IGNORES it. Acts as if it does not exist.

[Aegwymourn]

No, Aegwymourn, it always goes: roll to-hit into roll for cover/armour/invulnerable. It's always been that way and in 6th hasn't changed that one iota. I dunno where you've been playing that's bucked that sequence of events, but it's wrong. You roll for saves for every weapon in the game, cover, invulnerable, armour... why would it be different for markerlights? Look at the sequence of events (page 18, "REGARDLESS of what's firing at them", page 427). All that's happening with a tag is the to-wound part is skipped. Fact is, the opponent will try and roll stealth/shrouded saves when hit with a markerlight tag.

tauownz: There is no "nightfight removal" with a markerlight anymore. The updated FAQ reads: "A model equipped with a blacksun filter has the Night Vision special rule." What's Night Vision say? "ignores the effects of Night Fighting". IGNORES it. Acts as if it does not exist.

Really, have you never read the actual rules for how to place a markerlight. "Each time you hit a target unit with a markerlight, put a couter by that unit." pg. 29. You do not follow the standard rules for resolving markerlights because it has its own special rules (like quite a few weapons in the game). Tauownz was pointing out that the fourth bullet point reads "To allow the firing unit to ignore the effects of the Night Fighting rule when shooting at the marked target" when you are spending markerlights.

Furthermore since you do not follow the normal progression for shooting you never get to the wound step (since it has a strength of N/A furthermore pointing out that you do not follow standard rules) ,which you oddly forgot in your example (you also forgot allocation of wounds), ergo you cannot follow up to the saving throw step.

If your opponent got saves versus markerlights what would the point be? You would need an incredible amount of shots to produce any kind of benefit. The cost of such would always be higher than the benefit.

OH and your comment that first this is the army you learned to play with and that I must play somewhere strange are both somewhat insulting. I have been playing since 2nd Edition at a number of GW (tinley park mall, and downer's grove battle bunker in IL) and a number of different LGS. I have made cogent and descriptive arguments if you don't like them you have to actually refute them. Instead you keep trying the name calling game.

[Zeshin]

Regular shooting attack: Roll to hit, Roll to wound, Roll to save against wounds, remove casualties.
Marker light shooting attack: Roll to Hit, apply tokens for every hit. No wounds are rolled therefore there are no wounds to save.

Seems pretty straight forward.