Apocalypse STR D weapons, structure points and hull points

[Occam]

How do "Apocalypse" STR "D" weapons, structure points and hull points interact? Does every vehicle now have structure points now, or are hull points something different? If I shoot my Necron Pylon at a land raider, will I still blow it up? How are all these rules supposed to interact with each other?

Here's what I think--it's been a while since i played, give me a break--is that STR D is an automatic pen, but given the STR of D, it gets a +3 to the roll. Am I right?

[jamesdean13]

I can't remember what Str D gets on the chart. I remember seeing it back in an IA book but its been some time.

Structure points and hull points are 2 entirely different things.

[Ulthwé Guardian]

Forgeworld released an update for the Apocalypse Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf). Which explains things fairly nicely.

- Strength D means you'll automatically wound and penetrate a unit. High AP weapons allow bonuses on the damage chart, AP2 = +1, AP 1 = +2
- Super heavy vehicles benefit from structure points, which are equal to 3 hull points e.g and Eldar Lynx with 2 structure points will have 6 hull points. Once the super heavy vehicle has lost three of its hull points it loses a structure point.

[Mr Mystery]

Forgeworld released an update for the Apocalypse Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf). Which explains things fairly nicely.

- Strength D means you'll automatically wound and penetrate a unit. High AP weapons allow bonuses on the damage chart, AP2 = +1, AP 1 = +2
- Super heavy vehicles benefit from structure points, which are equal to 3 hull points e.g and Eldar Lynx with 2 structure points will have 6 hull points. Once the super heavy vehicle has lost three of its hull points it loses a structure point.

Also, as long as you have Structure Points, you can't be destroyed. Which is nice. But still of little use against Gauss :)

[JMichael]

Also on Forge World's download page are updates for their psykers and other vehicles for 6th edition (like how many Hull Points and unit types, etc)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html

[Occam]

Got it. Read the rules. But I'm still not really sure how this works.
My STR: D, AP2 weapon, when it shoots, automatically pens and gets +2 on the dmg table roll [+1 for being AP 2, +1 for being STR: D].
But What if I shoot a land raider with it? My pylon is suppossed to tear away structure points. In the old game, if it shot one, it pretty much died.

Now, if I read this correctly, each 'hit' [as STR: D weapons don't need to roll to penetrate due to their immense STR] deals 3 hull points of damage at once. Am I on the right track? Or would it still blow up all non super-heavies. There are more questions on apocalypse, but I'm really, really not clear. The FAQ seems like a quickly written note.

[Daemonette666]

I would treat it as follows: Roll to hit. If you hit, it auto penetrates does 3 HP and you roll on the Crit damage table. You add +1 for it being a Destroyer weapon, plus any additional for its AP value (+1 for AP2, +2 for AP1). So for most D weapons out there being AP2 you would add 2 to the dice roll. On average you would blow up a vehicle as rolling a 4 or more would be a 6 or higher.

D weapons will also mean Fortresses and fortifications would be blown away easier as you auto roll on the damage chart if you hit the target. You also add to the damage roll, so most fortifications would go BOOM.

In Apoc they might have to bring in repairable force fields on Fortifications to make them last longer.

[Nabterayl]

Are you talking about a weapon that automatically reduces structure points? SD by itself just removes one hull point and rolls on the damage table.

[isotope99]

The new text from the PDF is as follows:

DESTROYER
Also known as Titan-killers, weapons with this special rule on their profile deliver an immense amount of damage to their target. If a weapon has a ‘D’ instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer. If a Destroyer weapon hits a vehicle (including any vehicle caught under a blast template from a weapon with this rule), there is no need to roll for armour penetration – it automatically scores a penetrating hit. If a Destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to wound – it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule.
Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as normal.

To summarise:
Auto-pen & auto wound
Instant death
No cover or feel no pain

That's it, no more +1 on the damage chart and no automatic structure point lost (unless this is somewhere else).

So if you hit a land raider with a SD, AP2 weapon there is no roll to penetrate, it automatically loses one hull point and you jump straight to the normal damage roll with +1 for AP2 (so a 5 to blow it up)

Titans the same except that they have extra rules for each damage result like primary weapon saves, drive damaged and chain reactions.

[Gir]

Got it. Read the rules. But I'm still not really sure how this works.
My STR: D, AP2 weapon, when it shoots, automatically pens and gets +2 on the dmg table roll [+1 for being AP 2, +1 for being STR: D].
But What if I shoot a land raider with it? My pylon is suppossed to tear away structure points. In the old game, if it shot one, it pretty much died.

Now, if I read this correctly, each 'hit' [as STR: D weapons don't need to roll to penetrate due to their immense STR] deals 3 hull points of damage at once. Am I on the right track? Or would it still blow up all non super-heavies. There are more questions on apocalypse, but I'm really, really not clear. The FAQ seems like a quickly written note.

Where are you getting 3 hull points from? It looses 1 hull point for the penetrating hit, as with any other penetrating hit. The difference is you don't have to roll to penetrate.

Remember: Hull Points and Structure points are NOT the same thing.

[Occam]

I would treat it as follows: Roll to hit. If you hit, it auto penetrates does 3 HP and you roll on the Crit damage table. You add +1 for it being a Destroyer weapon, plus any additional for its AP value (+1 for AP2, +2 for AP1). So for most D weapons out there being AP2 you would add 2 to the dice roll. On average you would blow up a vehicle as rolling a 4 or more would be a 6 or higher.

D weapons will also mean Fortresses and fortifications would be blown away easier as you auto roll on the damage chart if you hit the target. You also add to the damage roll, so most fortifications would go BOOM.

In Apoc they might have to bring in repairable force fields on Fortifications to make them last longer.

This is how I'm going to run it unless the other players violently object. The others make a good point--should it only do one Hull Point of damage, but automatically roll damage? But the weapons are meant to destroy things, mine is to destroy other superheavies. So 3 HP would make sense.
I'm sure it's perfectly clear to the developers what the rules are, but seem to me like we were suppossed to 'mesh' the two together. I wish they would just release a new apoc. abook already.

[Gir]

This is how I'm going to run it unless the other players violently object. The others make a good point--should it only do one Hull Point of damage, but automatically roll damage? But the weapons are meant to destroy things, mine is to destroy other superheavies. So 3 HP would make sense.
I'm sure it's perfectly clear to the developers what the rules are, but seem to me like we were suppossed to 'mesh' the two together. I wish they would just release a new apoc. abook already.

You're just making up rules here. It does 1 HP. This is very clear in the rules, and there are no ambiguities.

[Daemonette666]

Read the rule for Forge World Apoc update for 6th edition in detail. Yes it is only 1 HP. It is auto penetrating, and would have between +2 or +3 depending on the AP of the D weapon. Against non vehicle models, if it hits, it does not need to roll to wound. The model does not get to make FNP, cover or armour saves, only Invul saves, and this is an instant death weapon. For models which are immune to Instant death, it will take a while to kill it. Against a vehicle that has many hull points, and that is not killed outright by the D weapon will survive the hit, unless it is on its last HP.

[Occam]

Read the rule for Forge World Apoc update for 6th edition in detail. Yes it is only 1 HP. It is auto penetrating, and would have between +2 or +3 depending on the AP of the D weapon. Against non vehicle models, if it hits, it does not need to roll to wound. The model does not get to make FNP, cover or armour saves, only Invul saves, and this is an instant death weapon. For models which are immune to Instant death, it will take a while to kill it. Against a vehicle that has many hull points, and that is not killed outright by the D weapon will survive the hit, unless it is on its last HP.

I thought according to the FAQ, my necron pylon [STR: D, AP 2) only had +1 on the damage chart for being AP 2.
I feel like my pylons just got weaker.

[Nabterayl]

Yes, that's true. SD AP2 is only +1 on the damage chart (from AP2), whereas before it was +1 (from SD) on a less forgiving chart.

[Tynskel]

I like this change.
Str D was way too powerful and there really wasn't reason to take any other weapon.
Now, you are going to see people using the meltacannon, flamestorms, megabolters, etc.

It is still quite useful, though. Anything that causes auto-instant death, or auto-pens is nice.

[Nabterayl]

Don't forget the ignores cover. A giant melta doesn't do that.

[Gir]

But only ignores cover saved generated by actual terrain. You still get them from stuff like Jink and special rules like the vemonthrope.

[JMichael]

But only ignores cover saved generated by actual terrain. You still get them from stuff like Jink and special rules like the vemonthrope.

Where are you getting that?
Destoryer weapons (Str D) ignore cover saves (which Jink and teh Venomthrope both are).
To quote the Forgeworld 6th edition FAQ

"Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as normal."

And the rest of the Destroyer weapon FAQ update:
"If a weapon has a ‘D’ instead of a Strength value in its profile, it means it is a Destroyer. If a Destroyer weapon hits a vehicle (including any vehicle caught under a blast template from a weapon with this rule), there is no need to roll for armour penetration – it automatically scores a penetrating hit. If a Destroyer weapon hits a non-vehicle model, there is no need to roll to wound – it automatically scores a wound with the Instant Death rule."

[Defenestratus]

Wow its pretty scary how many people can't understand the rules for D weapons.

It doesn't get +1 on the damage chart anymore.

A penetrating hit from a D weapon never always took away a structure point. It does however knock off a hull point since it always penetrates.

But only one hull point.

[Gir]

Where are you getting that?
Destoryer weapons (Str D) ignore cover saves (which Jink and teh Venomthrope both are).
To quote the Forgeworld 6th edition FAQ

"Cover saves and Feel No Pain rolls may not be taken against hits from Destroyer type weapons. Invulnerable saves however may be taken as normal."


Seems they changed that rule. It's been the other way since the Apoc book first came out.

[Gotthammer]

It's more a relic of 4th ed in that the original rule references items such as smoke launchers still downgrade to glancing hits as per their rules - but those rules changed rather than the Str D ones.