Wound allocation within mixed units

[Shotgun Justice]

Hi all, I played only my 2nd game of 6th ed last night, unfortunately we had to halt after 2 turns but I did get confused on wound allocation in close combat.

The situation was thus, I had a mixed unit of 2 Death Cult Assassins 5+/5++ (DCA) and 4 Crusaders 5+/3++ who were charged by a 10 man Blood Angels Assault squad with attached Reclusiarch.
At initiative step 6 my DCAs made their pile in moves, making base to base contact and killing 1 marine.
The Reclusiarch then fought at step 5, inflicting 3 wounds killing the Crusader and DCA he was in b2b with.
The marines then fought at step 4, they were in b2b with 2 crusaders & 1 dca, with the final crusader un-engaged. The marines inflicted 15 wounds.
This was where I got confused: some marines were in b2b/engaged with just a crusader, some with just a DCA and some with both types.
How should the wounds have been allocated and how should saves have been taken?

I know now having re-read page 25 of the rulebook that the other, un-enagaged, crusader was a valid target for wound allocation but we didn't know that at the time. Since he got caught by sweeping advance it didn't matter.

[Nabterayl]

Any of the marines' wounds could have been allocated to any model that the marines were in base contact with, and as the attacking player, you would get to choose. As the rulebook says, "A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step." Thus, you could choose any model in base contact with any marine as first to die.

[Shotgun Justice]

So to be clear, you don't need to isolate those marines that are only in b2b with a crusader for example and roll them separately, all 15 wounds could have been allocated to a model which was only in b2b with one marine?
Does this mean that once I pick a model to assign the first wound to, as per p.25, every wound must be assigned to it until it dies. So in this case roll 15 dice one by one until a failed save and then pick the next model and so on?

[DarkLink]

There's no isolation or anything like that. You just start with models in base contact, in the order of your choice. Once all the models in base contact are dead, you move on to the next closest model, then the next closest, and so on until there are no more wounds left.

The only splitting up you have to do is when you get to models with different saves. Say you take five wounds, and there are two models in base contact, a DCA with a 5++ and a Crusader with a 3++. You want to take the 3++, obviously, so you start taking 3++ saves one at a time, until you fail one. If there are still wounds left, now you start taking them on the DCA with the 5++. If you fail one, and there are still wounds left, you move on to the next closest model. So on and so forth.

[Nabterayl]

So to be clear, you don't need to isolate those marines that are only in b2b with a crusader for example and roll them separately, all 15 wounds could have been allocated to a model which was only in b2b with one marine?

DarkLink already did a good job of explaining, but in case it was unclear, the answer to this question is yes. If you so chose, all 15 wounds could have been allocated to a model (let's call him "Patsy") that was only in base contact with one marine. As long as Patsy was in base contact with one marine, any marine striking at that Initiative step could allocate their wounds to him, no matter how far away those marines happened to be.

[Shotgun Justice]

Thanks lads, clear and concise
Patsy is of course the name for any red-headed enemy models that may appear, to be targeted with prejudice, while shouting 'Riiiiiickay'. This is a Brit-centric reference or for those 12 people that watch BBC America. Nabterayl's use of it makes a lot more sense.

Final question following on from your explanation that so
long as Patsy was in base contact with one marine, any marine striking at that Initiative step could allocate their wounds to him, no matter how far away those marines happened to be.
If my unit is engaged with 2 units, say an assault squad and a terminator squad with lightning claws, could I assign wounds inflicted at initiative step 4 to any model in b2b with an I4 model, regardless of which unit inflicted that attack. e.g put a lightning claw attack on a model that was only in b2b with an assault marine?

[Kyban]

Thanks lads, clear and concise
Patsy is of course the name for any red-headed enemy models that may appear, to be targeted with prejudice, while shouting 'Riiiiiickay'. This is a Brit-centric reference or for those 12 people that watch BBC America. Nabterayl's use of it makes a lot more sense.

Final question following on from your explanation that so
If my unit is engaged with 2 units, say an assault squad and a terminator squad with lightning claws, could I assign wounds inflicted at initiative step 4 to any model in b2b with an I4 model, regardless of which unit inflicted that attack. e.g put a lightning claw attack on a model that was only in b2b with an assault marine?

I believe that you must allocate it to a model in b2b with the unit that caused it in that case.

EDIT: Nvm, I can't find anything that specifies that, so as long as the model is in b2b with an enemy model that attacked at that initiative he can take wounds from either unit before a model closer to that unit must take them.

[Nabterayl]

As page 28 states, "A model that is in base contact, or engaged, with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit," but "A model that is in base contact, or engaged, with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split its Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting its Attacks immediately before rolling To Hit."

Thus, if both the assault terminators and assault marines were in base contact with the same enemy unit, yes, the lightning claw attacks could be allocated to a model that was only in base contact with an assault marine. The only additional restriction you have from the fact that two of your units are attacking instead of one is that each of your units can only attack an enemy unit that they are in base contact with - multiple units don't have any restrictions on how you allocate wounds within that combat.

Now, if your two squads were engaged with two enemy squads, for any given model you wanted to make your Patsy, you'd have to ask if that model was in base contact with the squad the attack originated from. For instance:
Assault terminators are in base contact only with enemy A, and assault marines are in base contact only with enemy B. Assault terminators can't choose a Patsy from B, nor assault marines a Patsy from A. This is essentially two separate combats.
Assault terminators are in base contact with both enemy A and B, assault marines are in base contact only with B. Assault terminators can choose a Patsy from A or B, but assault marines only from B.
Assault terminators are in base contact only with enemy A, assault marines are in base contact with both enemy A and B. Assault terminators can choose a Patsy only from A, but assault marines from either A or B.

EDIT: The rules that you have to draw "engagement" through models of your own unit are not super obvious. However, if you note the sidebar on page 28, you'll see that marines G and H can split their attacks because they are within 2" of a model from their own unit engaged with both enemy units. Thus, if an assault marine was within 2" of an assault terminator engaged with A, and within 2" of an assault terminator engaged with B, and within 2" of an assault marine engaged with B ... he would only be engaged with B. He can't claim to be engaged with A just because he's within 2" of a friendly model from another squad engaged with A.

[Anggul]

Hm, I haven't encountered much of this so far, interesting.

So in that way CC got buffed because you get to choose what you kill as long as it's in Base Contact?

[Kyban]

Hm, I haven't encountered much of this so far, interesting.

So in that way CC got buffed because you get to choose what you kill as long as it's in Base Contact?

You get to choose what of yours dies, but so does the enemy so there will probably still be the best stuff left in the combat as it progresses.

[Nabterayl]

Hm, I haven't encountered much of this so far, interesting.

So in that way CC got buffed because you get to choose what you kill as long as it's in Base Contact?
To the extent you describe, yes. Of course, your opponent can always attempt to keep his high-value models engaged but out of base contact, forcing you to kill low-value models that are in base contact.


You get to choose what of yours dies, but so does the enemy so there will probably still be the best stuff left in the combat as it progresses.
... sort of? In the movement phase you can jockey with your opponent to be sure your most expendable models are closest to the potential chargers. But once the charge has been made you have no control (except for Look Out, Sir!) over which of your models is making saves.

[Zeshin]

To the extent you describe, yes. Of course, your opponent can always attempt to keep his high-value models engaged but out of base contact, forcing you to kill low-value models that are in base contact.


... sort of? In the movement phase you can jockey with your opponent to be sure your most expendable models are closest to the potential chargers. But once the charge has been made you have no control (except for Look Out, Sir!) over which of your models is making saves.Pretty sure "the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model"* is making saves.

*main rulebook, pg. 25

[Nabterayl]

Psssh. You're only saying that because it's what the rules say.

... yeah, thanks for the correction :p

[DWest]

Now to make things a bit messier, with the new CSM codex, you have the Champion of Chaos rule (C: CSM, pg 28) which states, among other things, "if an enemy Character dies from multiple Wounds inflicted simultaneously, and one or more of those Wounds was caused by a Champion, that Champion still rolls on the Chaos Boon table." I'm thinking in effect that means anytime I have a Champion taking swings at a unit with an enemy Character in it, I'm going to have to roll his dice separately and have the opponent save on those Wounds separately?

For clarity's sake, yes I am taking into account the "Champion of Chaos must issue/accept challenges where possible" part of the rule - I ran into this question after having Kayvaan Shrike jump on my Cultist blob; my Champion was way in the back to start, so wasn't eligible to issue a challenge, but was eligible to attack after pile-in.

[Nabterayl]

I'm thinking in effect that means anytime I have a Champion taking swings at a unit with an enemy Character in it, I'm going to have to roll his dice separately and have the opponent save on those Wounds separately?
Yes, you do. Oftentimes you'd have to do that anyway due to the champion having the only power weapon in the squad or whatnot, but now you have to do it all the time.

[Zeshin]

In that instance would the Champions wounds be there own wound pool even if they are the same strength and toughness as the rest of that initiative steps attacks?

[Kyban]

In that instance would the Champions wounds be there own wound pool even if they are the same strength and toughness as the rest of that initiative steps attacks?

If they are in a challenge then it counts as a different combat essentially. If not, then they can be part of the same wound pool if they have all the same stats and no precise hits.

[Nabterayl]

You do need to keep track of the champion's wounds, but they aren't their own wound pool. Remember that in 6th edition you always need to keep track of the champion's attacks separately anyway, as they might be Precision Strikes/Shots.

[Anggul]

Pretty sure "the player controlling the models being attacked chooses which model"* is making saves.

*main rulebook, pg. 25

So to clarify (using OP's example), the player controlling the Crusaders and Assassins could (due to them having different saves) choose to allocate wounds and take saves one by one on a Crusader until he dies, then move on to another model in base contact of his choice (let's say another Crusader because we're trying to keep the Assassins alive) and do the same, and so on until the wounds are gone, leaving the Assassins until last as long as there are still Crusaders in the base contact with the Marines?

[Nabterayl]

Correct. My apologies for my earlier inaccuracies.