Codexs are for 14 year olds, forge world is for adults

[Montpup]

This is an obsevation not a critism

Its something I've never noticed before but last week I got the choas codex and Horus heresy betrayal. I read the choas codex with great gusto and was impressed. While the book wasn't worth the $83 price tag, it is a great book, the art work is good the army list seems fun and well thought out and none of the fluff made me sudder with embarrassment. Phil Kelly even made abaddon not sound like a loser. Great book it has me buying miniatures that I wasn't planning to get. Then I picked up the tome which forge world had sent me. About 290 pages, I read it in one day. ALL OF IT.

It's funny, I see people talking about who the better codex writer is Phil Kelly or Matt ward, the church of Kelly exists and for good reason, the Matt ward defense league are out there as well. But the simple fact is that neither can really hold a candle to Alan Bligh. Anyone who had read the badab war books knows what I'm talking about. The fluff, the units and characters and the army lists are all so well done.

So what do I mean by my title? Well it comes down to whom the book has been marketed. GW targets the teen market, it's no serect and so the fluff in the codexs are written in a style that takes that into mind. The language used and still appeals to teens, now this is fine and I quite enjoy it. It's like reading a young adult book. I loved the rework of the necron fluff and now how Kelly has reworked choas so they are no longer the diet coke of evil, the best example of this writing it dragio's entry.

All my friends (not the largest sample I will admit) having read his fluff disliked him. And asked "why couldn't we have just a normal grand master?" I myself nevered used dragio as himself and wrote up fluff for a grand master who then ran around with dragio's stats and gear. I am yet to meet a boy between the ages of 12 to 18 who doesn't think dragio's story is the coolest ever....

The forge world books on the other hand read as military histories (the exception being volume 8 which is the worst written one). Again the style and language change. And the themes are much more quiet and restrained. The character are real and the whole book is much more focused.

It is worth noting that part of dragio's fluff problem is that it is poorly written and so you could blame at Matt ward's door. But it doesn't change the style of the writing that is used. The black Templar codex was written by graham McNeil and it does not read anything like his novels.

Also a note on price of Horus heresy betrayal, it is a A4 leather bound hardback book with silver guilded pages. If the book was a real military history in this format you would be paying £300 for it and it wouldnt have any gaming rules in it. Trust me I know.

[Deadlift]

You have a point, for me it is the models really. GW releases sci-fi chaos dinosaurs and FW Pre-heresy TDA. As examples of course. These models are absolutely aimed at different types of customer and as you say, could be age group as well. Reflects in the cost of the stuff too.

FW I think offers a little more realism, where as GW is more at the fantastic end of 40k for me. Neither is better or worse for it though.

[Mr Mystery]

It's likely unintentional, but the 14 year old thing is somewhat derogatory. Their is little wrong with the Codecies. They are there to enable you to field an army for the game.

Forgeworld however are indeed the more 'mature' end, and their books are less sandbox in nature, revolving as they do around a single exemplary conflict.

Just because the Codecies are much more general purpose, it doesn't follow that they're for kids. For my money, putting the background in the hands of the BL was an excellent move!

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

This is heartening to know - I'm hoping to receive this for my birthday. Sadly, of course, the adult prices of the miniatures mean that era-accurate army building is fairly prohibitive short term, and no-one I know is keen to collect. However, perhaps using existing armies as proxy models, some of the campaigns can be fought out (or perhaps I need to seek out other gaming clubs)...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Just as a side-question - does anyone know what the average word-count for a Codex is?

Other than that, I think the Man o' Mystery has it.

[Mr Mystery]

Prices are pretty comparative to be honest.

My main complaint is that my Mk2 Assault Marines look a little.....odd. Legs very skinny, arms very long!

[Deadlift]

Prices are pretty comparative to be honest.

Until you add the shipping fee. I don't get why it's so expensive.

[Nabterayl]

I agree that the 14 year old label is unnecessary, but I also agree with the main point - Forge World makes an attempt to do 40K as military history (though for my money, while an inferior writer, Warwick Kinrade was better at this than Alan Bligh).

One thing I will say for the "codex style" of writing is that I feel it gets short shrift for being thematic. Though I am solidly in the "I prefer military history" camp myself, I do think it's important that someone is still out there writing background with an eye towards themes (which is what I think is really going on with Draigo). Half the fun of being a military history preference in this setting, in my opinion, is focusing in on what most people do in juxtaposition to what the heroic few do.

[Tommie Soule]

I have not really read a codex since the Tomb kins first book was released! I just looked at the pictures after that really :)
I still collect codexes and FW books tho so I may actually start to read em again.

Thanks for the inspiration!

[Anggul]

My problem with Forge World is their blatant human favouritism. Xenos units are almost inevitably inferior to human ones, to the point of ridiculousness.

Oh, and they can't proof-read for crap.

[Nabterayl]

Their actual narratives, though, are a breath of fresh air. For instance, of the 11 Imperial Armour books released, 7 have included space marines in situations where they could lose (IA9 and IA10 don't count, since no matter who won the Badab War, space marines would both win and lose). On Taros, Beta Anphelion, Vraks, and Kastorel-Novem space marines are written like actual commandos, and regularly either lose or get pasted (albeit heroically) when they aren't used as commandos, and sometimes getting pasted (albeit heroically) even when they are. Only in IA11 do space marines appear without significant loss, and even then they contribute like commandos.

[[email protected]]

until lizardmen gain true recognition for being the greatest forgeworld is neither greater nor lesser than codexes...

[Psychosplodge]

Until you add the shipping fee. I don't get why it's so expensive.
That's why anything more than about £15 in postage I can drive down for less and they post it free...
(really it's an excuse to look at the pretty models)



Oh, and they can't proof-read for crap.
That's all the Games workshop group of companies...

[Nabterayl]

I do have to agree, though, that the Imperial Armour books are particularly bad in the proof-reading department. I see more outright typos (I mean in narrative sections, not rules) in Forge World books than in codices.

[inquisitorsog]

until lizardmen gain true recognition for being the greatest forgeworld is neither greater nor lesser than codexes...
My rats beg to differ. Sure, they may have gotten retired thanks to too many friendly fire and running off the board incidents, but that was also a codex or two ago. So now you'll never convince me that they're anything but the very best.

Lizardmen?Ha! they can't even leave home without packing a pair of electric socks.

[DF3CT]

My problem with Forge World is their blatant human favouritism. Xenos units are almost inevitably inferior to human ones, to the point of ridiculousness.

Oh, and they can't proof-read for crap.

Power armour is probably the easiest troop choice to make in the game from a sculpting/mold perspective.

The fact that a huge % of the GW player base must decide what forge world makes with the odd passion piece tossed in.

[Kirsten]

Forgeworld is all passion pieces, they make what they fancy making, they are not tied to any specific releases, races schedules etc.

[[email protected]]

My rats beg to differ. Sure, they may have gotten retired thanks to too many friendly fire and running off the board incidents, but that was also a codex or two ago. So now you'll never convince me that they're anything but the very best.

Lizardmen?Ha! they can't even leave home without packing a pair of electric socks.
where are my space slann at. lizard dominatus... forge world hear my cry

[bfmusashi]

Draigo is nowhere near the aneurysm generating silliness of Hector Rex. They're both allowed by the universe, but Draigo does not even come close. It is also important to remember, there is nothing adult about 40k save the tax bracket of some players.

[DarkLink]

When people say they don't like Draigo's fluff because it's too over the top, I laugh at them and ask "what game are you playing".


the $83 price tag

I think this explains the OP's observation.

[DF3CT]

Forgeworld is all passion pieces, they make what they fancy making, they are not tied to any specific releases, races schedules etc.

By passion pieces I meant, odd ball units or variants.

I'm surprised we haven't seen Rogue Trader warbands or Rogue Trader models. (Not to be confused with rogue trader era models)

[DF3CT]

Draigo is nowhere near the aneurysm generating silliness of Hector Rex. They're both allowed by the universe, but Draigo does not even come close. It is also important to remember, there is nothing adult about 40k save the tax bracket of some players.


I haven't seen a kid over turn a gaming table in progress before.

I can't say the same for an "adult".

[Poseidal]

I find FW background kind of dry; there doesn't seem to be as much life to the forces with their writing. The battle stories I can leave from both, as they're generally less interesting.

The rules are definitely not as polished as GW main ones, which is saying a lot.

Both are generally less interesting than the early second edition, late Rogue-trader stuff that solidified the setting. Early rogue trader is fun, but less recognisable now.


My problem with Forge World is their blatant human favouritism. Xenos units are almost inevitably inferior to human ones, to the point of ridiculousness.

Oh, and they can't proof-read for crap.
And also this.

[DrLove42]

FW is marines. And guard. And marine fighting marines. And marines and gaurd fighting guard. And guard and marines, fighting marines and guard.

With a tiny smattering of xenos in there. Occasionally. FW books;

1 - Guard
2 - Guard and Marines
3 - Marines and Guard vs Tau
4 - Guard vs Nids
5 - Guard and Marines vs Guard and Marines
6 - Guard and Marines vs Guard and Marines (with a little chaos)
7- Guard and Marines vs Guard and Marines (with a bit more chaos)
8 - Marines and Guard vs Orks.
9 - Marines vs Marines
10 - Marines vs Marine
11 - Marines and Guard vs Eldar
Heresy - Marines vs Marines

So yeah FW are "grown up" if you only want power armour.

[bfmusashi]

I haven't seen a kid over turn a gaming table in progress before.

I can't say the same for an "adult".

That made me laugh. In my mind the adult is Mr. T and the gamers have just found themselves on the wrong side of the A-Team.

[magickbk]

That made me laugh. In my mind the adult is Mr. T and the gamers have just found themselves on the wrong side of the A-Team.

Bonus if the gaming store in your mind has Saloon-style doors that B.A. can throw open when he enters.

Also, I think the OP confused the word observation with the word opinion. FW and GW have a different focus, for sure, but it is still a game set in the future with aliens and Space Marines and such. I, for one, don't want all that much realism in it for the same reason I don't watch law, police, and medical dramas on TV every night: when I get entertained, I want to check reality at the door and escape for a little while.

Rather than declare what you like mature, and what you don't like for the kids at your local store that annoy you, realize that there are people of all ages that like all kinds of different things. You seem to like military history, and that is the crowd that FW caters to, not adults or mature players. In fact, I have played against 15 year old players at various stores with wonderfully done armies that were good sports, and I've seen middle-aged men throw a fit and pull their models off the table in the middle of a game and leave. Age has nothing to do with anything.

Having said this, I like the models that FW produces, and have a few myself. I hate their production quality, which actually seems to have gone down considerably over the years.

[DF3CT]

I suppose FW does cater to a certain type of gamer.

By their prices I assume its the type of gamer that enjoys a good bend over session while he bays like a pony.

[Venvierra]

I love the Forge World stuff, I just wish I could afford it :(

[Psychosplodge]

I suppose FW does cater to a certain type of gamer.

By their prices I assume its the type of gamer that enjoys a good bend over session while he bays like a pony.

Oi, less pony abuse.

[eldargal]

I suppose FW does cater to a certain type of gamer.

By their prices I assume its the type of gamer that enjoys a good bend over session while he bays like a pony.
Clearly someone who can't afford their prices...

[inquisitorsog]

Oh great, as if there wasn't already enough snobbery in 40k circles, we now get the "if you're not doing FW, you're childish".

Guess what's childish? Assuming your tastes are some how superior to anyone else's tastes. That's the kind of thing I expect to see in a middle schooler, not from an adult.

[eldargal]

Yup, FW are great because they do extra things that are pretty and that GW would not to do because they couldn't sell them in the kind of quantities needed to justify expensive plastic moulds and whatnot. Variety is good. There is something in the 'FW is for veterans' thing but that is largely to do with modelling skills and budget, not any kind of maturity issue.

[fuzzbuket]

go into the local flgs. more adults than kids.

i do see a awful lot of *on a fourm primarily of adults*

OH NO I AM IN A MINORITY AND GW DOSNT LOVE ME. YOU ARE TOO IN THE MINORITY UPVOTE PLEASE.

you do have some valid points but i reckon that its because FW goes into depth for the serious 40k fanatic, whilst many people wouldnt drop £50 on a book with half of it filled with legion layouts and such.

[westside]

Don't know if the 14 year old comment was the best way to broach the subject (although I have thought the same when I look at some of the sculpts/codex of the last two years).

Clearly FW styling is for a player/modeler who enjoys a more 'gritty', 'realistic', fluff driven scenario 40k experience. While GW is intentionally designed with to appeal to new/younger players. Of course there is crossover, but the business model/concept is present nonetheless.

FW models are painted with weathered paint jobs and airbrushes, the modeling book presents advanced techniques. Even the infantry is sculpted with less of a heroic emphasis in some cases.

On the other hand, GW models are presented, in general, with brighter paint jobs. The GW modeling book is step by step for a beginner. GW sculpts are 'all age friendly' (gone are the Diaz deamonettes, etc) and sometimes whimsical and almost chibi.

I am just glad GW recognized the need to cater to different markets, demographics, tastes, and allows the style difference between GW and FW to exist.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I don't always have money, but when I do...

I have too much choice... :p


I love FW and GW in equal amounts, anyone can afford either, it's a matter of saving and money management. If you can't afford FW then how do you afford GW? It's not THAT much more expensive.

At the end of the day, it's an expensive hobby, you knew that when you signed up. :p

[magickbk]

At the end of the day, it's an expensive hobby, you knew that when you signed up. :p

I started during Rogue Trader. It wasn't that expensive when I signed up...

[inquisitorsog]

I started during Rogue Trader. It wasn't that expensive when I signed up...

As I recall, Citadel/GW has always been priced at the top of the gaming spectrum other than the few true boutique mini makers. It just looks cheap in retrospect. Citadel models were always the most expensive in the store, even more than Mithril's precleaned/primed middle earth figures. Add to that the fact that the standard in wargames of the time involved cardboard(such as BattleTech's stand ups), not anything truly 3d, and it was expensive even then. There were plenty of wargamers in my college days, but hardly anyone touched citadel because that conversion from GBP was just too much for us when we had plenty of USD options.

[Anggul]

I do have to agree, though, that the Imperial Armour books are particularly bad in the proof-reading department. I see more outright typos (I mean in narrative sections, not rules) in Forge World books than in codices.

They messed up a few things in the last one, various Eldar options come to mind.


Power armour is probably the easiest troop choice to make in the game from a sculpting/mold perspective.

The fact that a huge % of the GW player base must decide what forge world makes with the odd passion piece tossed in.

I wasn't talking about models, I was talking about the rules. In-game Forgeworld xenos units are almost always inferior to human ones.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well.... Eat my hat.

[imperialpower]

I think the prices of FW models really show that it's aimed more at mature customers unless mummy or daddy buys them for their silver spoon kids anyway but that's beside the point I think the codex is what it is a game aid somthing you use in probably 99% of your games so doesn't need to be packed with in depth background

[magickbk]

Well.... Eat my hat.

I thought the Hat hammer days were over...

I see where you are going though. Ultimately this is a hobby, and we buy into it knowing that regardless of how much we spend on it, we don't need it to survive, regardless of how we feel about FW vs GW. I guess they are doing something right with marketing, considering we're all on the internet discussing it to begin with. They've got us exactly where they want us.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

:p

Yep, they gots us by the balls man!

[Montpup]

At no point did I say being 14 was a negative thing, my point was that writing for a teenage demographic uses a different style than writing a military history. Example terry prachett writes two types of disc world books. The main series and a young adult series. I have read and own both, this isn't a bad thing and both are super enjoyable, it's just the writing style. I never said that the codexs where bad I just sai they where written in the style that is used for books written for teenagers. Harry potter is another example of this written for teenagers but loved by adults every where. A military history is a different style and is written with the target audience being adults, this doesn't mean teenagers can't read or love them (as I did as a teenager) it is just the style. Alan Bligh and steve Ambrose are not going to be winning any awards for young adult fiction any time soon.

As for people behaviour I would think you would find that in gaming circles 14 year olds tend to step up and act in a more mature way as they are surrounded by adults, it's part of the process of growing up and learning how to be an adult and how to behave in social situations. As for the adult who flips the table one could observe that dispute being an adult their behaviour has never matured. In fact flipping a table is the act of a child (4-10 years) rather that of a teenager or adult.

It doesn't matter which type of book you enjoy, nor does it define you as a mature or immature person (I make plane and tank noises) as long as you enjoy your hobby. We are playing with toy soldiers after all. I mearly wish to note that I noticed the two different writing styles. It has also being interesting to note people's reaction to the term 14 year old, as it seems everyone has taken it negatively where in reality there is nothing negative about it, just people's perceptions.

Anyway I'll end my social commentary and experiment here

[inquisitorsog]

Montpup - Your choice of wording is, at least in any of the many parts of the US I've lived in, exactly the way someone might phrase "x is immature, y is mature". For example "Justin Bieber is for 14 year old girls, adults listen to real music". You ran into an idiom problem.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Tl;dr.

[wittdooley]

I think the prices of FW models really show that it's aimed more at mature customers unless mummy or daddy buys them for their silver spoon kids anyway but that's beside the point I think the codex is what it is a game aid somthing you use in probably 99% of your games so doesn't need to be packed with in depth background

Or, I dunno, a kid that saves his money and decides he wants some Tartarus terminators instead of call of duty 12. That silver spoon Crap is a load of BS.

[[email protected]]

Or, I dunno, a kid that saves his money and decides he wants some Tartarus terminators instead of call of duty 12. That silver spoon Crap is a load of BS.

I'm 16... I worked for my Dark Vengeance... cant afford anything else now... the semi job I had ended (coupon handing out, no one was using the coupons)... I would kill to be able to get forgeworld stuff

on the current talk about 14 year olds... kids that are into collecting an actual army and have read atleast one black library book... are pretty damn mature, comparative...

[White Tiger88]

I'm 16... I worked for my Dark Vengeance... cant afford anything else now... the semi job I had ended (coupon handing out, no one was using the coupons)... I would kill to be able to get forgeworld stuff

on the current talk about 14 year olds... kids that are into collecting an actual army and have read atleast one black library book... are pretty damn mature, comparative...

Yup most kids now days are pretty much little punks who don't have silver spoons...they have silver other things though im sure -_-

[Lexington]

Forge World makes an attempt to do 40K as military history
Yeuss. This. Kinda.

For all the shallow reads of "oh, there's Space Maureens, so it's all dumb, hurr hurr" that 40K invites, the older material's got a lot of experience and knowledge in it. Priestley, Jonson, et al. had their intellectual hands in a lot of literary pies, and 40K's original strength comes from its pastiche nature. Moorcock, Dune, Tolkien, Star Wars, history, anthropology and mythology all mixed together to form a whole that had frayed edges, but managed to feel vast and inviting due to its willingness to cross highball fantasy and dry verisimilitude. An understanding of military history underpinned a lot of this. You have giant tank battles on Tallarn, or the slow-burn drama on Armageddon as the Imperials hunker down for an endless greenskin siege. Sure, there's Space Marines and all, but they were leveraged in realistic ways, and the rest of the universe worked along similar principles.

Nowadays, Forgeworld's the only one carrying on that tradition. Meanwhile the Codexes that get farted out from the modern Studio are all mired in the incestuous swamp of the Warhammer 40,000 Franchise/IP, the diminishing returns of a system that's not allowed to have energy put into it anymore, scribbled down by a staff that's seemingly disinterested in anything beyond the most broadly recognizable pop culture. It's fine to make fun of them (and their audience) - they're the Nickelback of game writing.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I was in full time employment when I was 16, jus' sayin'.

[eldargal]

Nowadays, Forgeworld's the only one carrying on that tradition. Meanwhile the Codexes that get farted out from the modern Studio are all mired in the incestuous swamp of the Warhammer 40,000 Franchise/IP, the diminishing returns of a system that's not allowed to have energy put into it anymore, scribbled down by a staff that's seemingly disinterested in anything beyond the most broadly recognizable pop culture. It's fine to make fun of them (and their audience) - they're the Nickelback of game writing.
Bollocks.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

"the Nickelback of game writing!?" I didn't even notice that comment.

You, sir, are a tool comparable only to the size of the Empire State Building.
If you can even try and compare Warhammer 40k to a band then you seriously need help my friend, you REALLY do.

[daboarder]

Bollocks.

Quoted for truth.

hel half the reason people dislike ward is his additional material.

best releases in the last 4 years are the ones that we're re-inventions of their armies and that probably says all you need to know.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I love Mat Ward, because it annoys people, and I find that hilarious.

[White Tiger88]

I love Mat Ward, because it annoys people, and I find that hilarious.

You and mat Ward love Mat Ward.


Bollocks.

Yes....Bollocks Indeed......I do rather like most codex's.....Such as xeno's since they get female players!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Up The Walls likes him too.

Watching you Tiger... You dirty Canadian. :p

[White Tiger88]

Up The Walls likes him too.

Watching you Tiger... You dirty Canadian. :p

Pft.....Go up your own wall...wait what?

Also....Stop eyeing me!!!!!!!! I FEEL VIOLATED!!! ELDARGAL SAVE ME!!!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Up The Walls is a user on here, he lives near me.

[White Tiger88]

Up The Walls is a user on here, he lives near me.

I know that.....thats why i said get back on the wall :P

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No. Dirty Canadian...

[jgebi]

I just want to say if you want a story then read something by BL other wise just bite the bullet and get over it, the codex is not a log book but a short story book who gives a dam as long as it tells me what I need to know and a little back ground. Now this being said I do like my fluff as it tastes like blood, sweat and souls and helps me have a reason for what I'm doing (and yes I'm one of these teens as I'm 16) but still I play necrons and they are good and I just want more of a story for them then what they have.

[Lexington]

best releases in the last 4 years are the ones that we're re-inventions of their armies and that probably says all you need to know.
True, the Dark Eldar Codex was an interesting exception to the rule, at least to some extent. What it lacked in depth or personality, it at least kind of made up for with the interesting superscience-by-way-of-Clive Barker motif.

Unfortunately, it was a niche that the Necrons used to occupy, so all their appealing mystery and Lovecraftian techno-horror got jettisoned in favor of leftover Scorpion King costuming and other halfassed pop-Egyptology. Poor things. We'll not even get into the horrors inflicted on the Boys from Titan...

This all misses the point, though. It's not "more," it's the specifics of what's been added, and the spillover into nonsensical He-Man stories where there was once a bit of verisimilitude...so long as one made allowance for WWII strategies in a universe with space travel.

Time was, wars in 40K read like historical accounts, and operated on broad but workable military strategies, even if they were used against Orks. Nowadays, battles are won or lost by Marneus Calgar sucker-punching Avatars, presumably due to the copyright on their names and an assumption that the audience is too dumb to know the difference.


If you can even try and compare Warhammer 40k to a band then you seriously need help my friend, you REALLY do.
I have no earthly idea what to do with this comment. It dangles there in the wind, deeply confusing on one hand, but also tempting me to try to copyright the idea of comparing two dissimilar things via their qualities and reap billions off the retroactive royalties. It just might be crazy enough to work.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yes, you should copyright being an idiot. You're extremely good at it.

[White Tiger88]

Yes, you should copyright being an idiot. You're extremely good at it.

He already did i checked.....Shame

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Gods damn it... I should pay him royalties for my last comment then.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Thread closed before this goes any further.