Just a heads up about the Space Wolves HQ choices no one seems to notice

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Everyone I've talked to is spazzing about the idea of multiple Jaws of the World Wolf-toting HQs in a Space Wolves list. I just thought I would point out for people's edification, the bottom right hand corner of page 81 prohibits such "unimaginative tactics," hehe.

That will be all.

[Eyespy]

Everyone I've talked to is spazzing about the idea of multiple Jaws of the World Wolf-toting HQs in a Space Wolves list. I just thought I would point out for people's edification, the bottom right hand corner of page 81 prohibits such "unimaginative tactics,"

If you had kept reading you would notice that rune priests can take two psyker powers. So long as the second power is different, it satisfies this requirement.


hehe.

That will be all.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

"nor may they bear the same psychic powers" means that how exactly?

[Rapture]

"nor may they bear the same psychic powers" means that how exactly?

Interesting. It does say same "powers" though so I think there is room for both arguments.

[Nabterayl]

And, you know, Phil Kelly built an army list that includes Njal and another rune priest, which suggests that he reads it as combinations.

[Eyespy]

"nor may they bear the same psychic powers" means that how exactly?

"Powers" is the plural form of "Power" indicating two (or more).

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Do they both have the same powers?

If it had said psychic power instead of powers, then it would be proper english and would make the "combinations" part of the sentence refer to both the psychic powers and wargear parts of the sentence. As it reads now, proper english as far as I know means that you can't take the same psychic powers.

[Rapture]

And, you know, Phil Kelly built an army list that includes Njal and another rune priest, which suggests that he reads it as combinations.

That doesn't mean anything.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

"Powers" is the plural form of "Power" indicating two (or more). Which means nothing in regards to the word 'combination' later in the sentence, hence our quandary.

[Nabterayl]

That doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean nothing. It's not the same as re-wording the codex, but the fact that we're having the conversation is strong evidence that the wording is ambiguous. Ambiguity means that we have to choose one of several interpretations. It's far from foolish to look to the behavior of the author of the codex to gain insight into which interpretation we should choose.

[DarkLink]

That doesn't mean anything.

Well, since Phil Kelly wrote the codex, I'd say it does.

The grammar of the rule is unclear. There are arguments both ways. And sitting right in front of us is a clear example of which interpretation is correct, by the guy who wrote the codex. Hard to argue with that.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

What did his list have in it, exactly?

And why are the guys who were sent to apprehend Magnus the Red now toting the best psykers in the Imperium?

[Nabterayl]

What did his list have in it, exactly?

Somebody who posted in this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2271) might be able to point you to the correct White Dwarf. All I know for sure is that it had Njal and another rune priest. Since Njal has every power, if the prohibition were on individual powers rather than combinations of powers, Njal would preclude taking another rune priest.


And why are the guys who were sent to apprehend Magnus the Red now toting the best psykers in the Imperium?
No psykers here, no sir. Only good old fashioned shamans, communing with the spirits. Darn shame that the spirits are affected by psychic hoods. And Aegis suits. And runes of warding. And the Shadow in the Warp.

But no psykers here, no sir. Only shamans. ;)

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Ah, your reasoning is sound, Nabterayl. I read it as plain english, and the way the sentence reads it refers to individual psychic powers, but if the author of the codex plays it that way that is good enough for me to admit I was likely mistaken in my interpretation.

[crazyredpraetorian]

The SW codex is full of poorly worded rules.:D

[PinoyC]

only thing I've got to say is that I'm not even all that impressed by the powers...

Pwr 1...lg blast that doesn't deviate (good) but has to be on the priest, w/ stats lower than a WW, and counts as shooting...boo on that one.

Pwr 2...D6 shooting atks w/ S7 & AP 5...decent but not impressive

Pwr 3...the old wolf power but w/o charging benefits and only effects infantry...(I had used the RP less and less over the years...and w/ 5th ed I get better cover saves anyway)

Pwr 4...gotta give this one a thumbs up...making a 24" difficult/dangerous for so many things can cripple daemons and mech eldar/tau, not to mention the proliferation of DPs nowadays...pretty nasty but fits the SW dynamic to use the storms... (difficult would be good enough or shorten the range to fix)...but then again... you've got to roll a 1 for it to really matter.

Pwr 5...either x2 S4 AP 2 or 3x S5 AP- shots...plus ldrshp check if a model drops...useful for MEQs/Termies...but as I mentioned for Pwr 3...cover saves are retardedly common and generally give you a 50% chance to save...(little math hammer...using the AP2 version against termies...over 3 turns I'll hit 4 times (6 shots times .66) and wound twice (4 hits times .50) but more than likely only do one wound (due to inherant Inv/the use of SS)...that's over 3 turns fellas...so likely 2-4 throughout a whole game (if you don't have them in a xport, DSing in, or in combat not to mention having to get in range...then you can fist the RP).

Pwr 6...3D6 S3 AP- and causes the affected unit to be in difficult/dangerous these are auto hits so (against MEQ) at worst you're looking at 4 wounds before saves...the difficult/dangerous is probably the worst part...but again...you need to roll a one.

Pwr 7...the big poppy...it can be devastating if you line up perfectly to allow the priest to get every model in every unit (Tau gunlines come to mind) also it doesn't specify the thickness of said line...I say for it to be as thick as a string (not even yarn...STRING)...and stop w/ the parade ground movement/deployment. Also, since most armies are MEQ or better w/ init you do realize that you're just taking a bass ackwards armor save right (I4 leave on the results of 5/6 to kill you...33% just like a power armor save or 16.66% for I5 guys...just like termie armor)...I'm not saying that this is a bad power...it's just not the "I win" ability that everyone's complaining about

Njal on the other hand is retarded...his stormcaller ability isn't even a power...it just happens and can't be stopped...nor will it conflict w/ him using his other powers-1BS can cripple gun lines...difficult terrain = meh...Morale test or run can also be devastating for lower ldrshp units...D3 S9 hits on vehicle's side armor will crush anything in the SM army bar LRs...and D6 S8 (of instakill) towards any unit w/in 12" after a DP (it'd have to be late game or a lucky roll to happen though...plus you can expect this result for t 4-7)...yet another reason I advocate that Special Characters are only to be used for Special Games.

just get into assault with the box of rocks...he can only get an inv from termy armor in CC...he's pretty squishy...trust me.

Just my thoughts

[Aldramelech]

FAQ time already? ;) That didnt take long did it?

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Power number 5 fires both of those wolves as one attack, I thought?

[Nabterayl]

Power number 5 fires both of those wolves as one attack, I thought?

Yes, it does. "They are treated like a single psychic shooting attack but they use both the profiles below and both target the same unit" (p. 37).

[Rapture]

Well, since Phil Kelly wrote the codex, I'd say it does.


I don't care if God made that army list. What I am saying is that that isn't necessarily enough to prove anything.

[Nabterayl]

I don't care if God made that army list. What I am saying is that that isn't necessarily enough to prove anything.

Nobody's disputing that. But it's the most probative piece of evidence I can imagine short of an erratum that re-words the rule.

[Lerra]

I don't care if God made that army list. What I am saying is that that isn't necessarily enough to prove anything.

It shows RAI, and gives us a hint of what the FAQ will say when it comes out. You're right in that it doesn't affect RAW, however.

[DarkLink]

It shows RAI, and gives us a hint of what the FAQ will say when it comes out. You're right in that it doesn't affect RAW, however.

It's about the only case where we actually know what RAI is, really. Normally, the only way we know RAI is via RAW, which is why RAI makes for such a weak argument the majority of the time. We don't usually know the designer's take on the rule, as much as some people want to think they know. In this case, though, we do.

As it stands though, RAW isn't clear. The English language is ambiguous in this case. There are multiple ways to interprate the rule grammatically, which is why we're having this discussion in the first place.

So, since we have unclear RAW, but very clear RAI, we can pretty much figure out what the rule means.

[AirHorse]

Can someone make it clear exactly what he fielded, because as far as I am aware the arguement put forward is he used njal and one other rune priest which is a pretty shallow arguement as far as I am concerned. Njal is a special character with all the powers, of course it would be intended that he is an exception to the rule and I dont find it convincing that Njal + 1 priest means you can spam the powers.

I dunno if its been mentioned, but the designers note on page 24 at the begining of the rules only talks about combinations of wargear so I find it likely that the priest powers arent supposed to be inculded in the combinations part. But overall not too fussed either way, just would be nice to have it cleared up!

[DarkLink]

I don't know what powers were used, but from what I know, he took 3 rune priests and njal. I don't own the white dwarf though, I'm just going off what jwolf posted in one of the forums.

[imperialsavant]

I don't know what powers were used, but from what I know, he took 3 rune priests and njal. I don't own the white dwarf though, I'm just going off what jwolf posted in one of the forums.

:confused: If you are referring to the Bat Rap in White Dwarf then from my reading of it there was only one "Jaws of the World" power used but it didnt get much attention apart from a "Box" on the top of one page.

[EmperorEternalXIX]

If this is true, it leans quite the other way toward my original assumption.

[Kanaellars]

Why does this need another thread. It has been argued and debated to death.

The most recent other article is http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2271

I will quote myself from that thread...

I dont know about anywhere else, but in some local stores, I know the wording has been taken as it is written.

Two models cannot have the exact same combination of Powers AND wargear.

What this means is that, although it would be a bit of a cheats way out, you could take:

RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Bolt Pistol
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Plasma Pistol
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Bolter
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Storm Bolter

None of these models have "the exact same combination of Powers AND wargear"

It has to do with the words EXACT and COMBINATION

[NoahFidanque]

Based on the rule, I am not 100% that is correct. The rule says "... no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or war gear combination."

Reading this, it seems there are three basic groups of things that can not be the same...
1) Sagas
2) Psychic Powers
3) War gear combinations.

Based on this, each character COULD have JotWW, but they would each need to take a different second psychic power... The English major (masters degree in English, works as a tech writer) sitting next to me swears that they couldn't even all take JotWW based on the sentence structure, but I think this would break the spirit of what was written. But, based on the structure, I do agree that each of the three areas needs to be unique. The catch is the word "OR"… It's separates the two things (psychic powers / war gear) into different objects that the "nor may they bear" affects. Just one word, but in this case, very important...

[DevilUknow]

Why does this need another thread. It has been argued and debated to death.

The most recent other article is http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=2271

I will quote myself from that thread...

I dont know about anywhere else, but in some local stores, I know the wording has been taken as it is written.

Two models cannot have the exact same combination of Powers AND wargear.

What this means is that, although it would be a bit of a cheats way out, you could take:

RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Bolt Pistol
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Plasma Pistol
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Bolter
RP w/ JotWW and Lightning, Power Armor, Force Weapon, and Storm Bolter

None of these models have "the exact same combination of Powers AND wargear"

It has to do with the words EXACT and COMBINATION

I deem this unimaginative and thus I prohibit it. ;)

[Lord Azaghul]

Ahh another typical gamer conversation...

Gamer A: The advisor bonus Stack!

Gamer B: No they don't

Gamer A: the word 'a' in there, that means that they stack!

Gamer B: No, they don't, 'a' means one...they don't stack.

Gamer A: Your an idiot, the codex doesn't say I doesn't stack

Gamer B: The codex doesn't say I can't hit you either...

[Diagnosis Ninja]

To be fair, with all Space Wolves characters, why not play it safe? Just make sure they're all totally different. Does having 4 Jaws powers in an army really matter that much to you? Hell, if I was going to cheese, I'd use Murderous Hurricane over and over again to maximise on Dangerous Terrain Tests :P On top of that, automatic hits, or anything which is automatic, is a major thing to me. Sod Jaws!

[EmperorEternalXIX]

Based on this, each character COULD have JotWW, but they would each need to take a different second psychic power... The English major (masters degree in English, works as a tech writer) sitting next to me swears that they couldn't even all take JotWW based on the sentence structure, but I think this would break the spirit of what was written. But, based on the structure, I do agree that each of the three areas needs to be unique. The catch is the word "OR"… It's separates the two things (psychic powers / war gear) into different objects that the "nor may they bear" affects. Just one word, but in this case, very important... I come from the newspaper business myself, and so have dealt a bit with tricky grammar. This was my thinking as well. Though I agree with you that such a thing would be against the spirit of what he was doing with the rules at the time.

@Azaghul: Your contribution to the debate (or lack thereof) is noted. Did you know you don't have to read threads you don't want to read?