1500 BT vs CSM

[Aegir]

Hi,

On satyrday I'm going to fight against CSM, so here is my list and I'm waiting for comments and some advice:)

1. HQ

EC + AACNtO 140

MoS + jump pack + TH 150

MoS + jump pack + pair of LC 150

2. Troops

1. 8 Initiate + p. Sword + flamer + rhino + smoke + PMSB 207

2. 8 Initiate + p. Sword + flamer + rhino + smoke + PMSB 207

3. 5 Initiate + PC + MG 110

4. 5 Initiate + PC + MG 110

3. F.A.

assault sqad = 6 Ini + p. Sword + 2x flamer 132

assault sqad = 6 Ini + p. sword + 2x flamer 132

2x LS Typhoon in squadron 140

totally 1502.

Idea is:

MoS going with assault sqad's, EC going with one large sqad. LS typhoon flying and shooting against some tough HS -> probably it will be defiler.
Two large sqads going, and fighting against his objectives, and two small sitting on my own objectives. Assault sqads go where they are needed as support for troops.

My question's are:

Is PC good choice for small sqads or ML would be better.
Are flamers better than plasma pistols for Assault sqads?

I think that my friend can mix CSM with DE... so I would rather take flamers.... but against CSM Plasma pistols sounds, better... and I still have some extra attack...

please and comment.

I also admit that I want play with models that I have.. so no tanks, and LR, because I don't like to prox anything:)

Thanks

[DWest]

Is PC good choice for small sqads or ML would be better.
As I don't have a copy of C: Black Templars, I can't look this up, so is there a significant (>5) points difference between the plasma and the missile? If there is, might be worthwhile to drop to the cheaper and add bodies to the roster (unless you don't have many models and are trying to max points). Aside from that, I'd possibly argue for the missile, the +1 Str helps to crack vehicles. On a similar note, I might suggest swapping the meltas to the squads in Rhinos and putting the Flamers on the small squads- I assume the small units are staying back to provide fire support? If so the Wall of Death rule for template weapons (6ed pg 52) will help discourage opportunistic assaults, while the Meltaguns can get up to the front where they're needed.


Are flamers better than plasma pistols for Assault sqads?
Again, if enough points can be shaved by dropping to Flamers to get another Assault Marine or two, so much the better. Overwatch fire is a very hit-or-miss thing, but when it hits, it hurts, so having lots of bodies to soak up the hits is handy. The Plasma Pistol might be useful to bust open light vehicles or thump Terminators if they show up, but the new CSM can put Invulnerable saves on literally everything they put on the table if so desired, and Flamers can help whittle down a squad for the charge. Be aware however, CSM might break and run, as they don't have Know No Fear and Fearless isn't standard on their basic Troops.

[Aegir]

ML cost's 10 pts, PC cost's 20 so it's 10 pts for each. so we have 20 point's here. Plasma pistol's for Assault sqad are cheaper than flamers 5 to 6 pts, so I'll stay with Plasma's:)

My friend like thousand sons so probably I'll see sorcereer on disk and sons as troops... I don't like AP3 bolters...so I'm afraid of overwatch fire... And this is my bad dream:).... Also he will have some possesed (I want shoot them:) because now they are stronger than before andin CC they're hard to kill). His only heavy support is defiler, probably with this huge cannon and some other nice shooting stuff. So he won't have any more vehicle, so maby flamers are really better for small squads, and maby the large sqads also take flamers. I thought tha PC are good because of AP2... but If I switch PC for ML and MG for flamers I't will give me 28 points left.

So I can take additional troop for one sqad but it stinks. I thought about HOoA for my chaplains:) as it S3 AP3 fleshbane and armourbane...and blast with 5BS that hit's 2+ I have AP3 wound on 2+ blast...one use only but for 10 point's it;s still worth it's point cost... what you think??

[DWest]

The Holy Hand Egg sounds like it might score a big win even if it is 1-shot, and if you can't find anywhere else to stick 10 points, I'd definitely say go for it.

Defilers are mega-tough now, still only AV 12 on the front, but 4 Hull Points, 5+ Invuln all the time, Fleet, Fear, and It Will Not Die (5+ to regain a hull point at the end of each of his turns). You'll want to hit it hard, and often, and don't let it get into CC with your guys.

Thousand Sons are powerful, but keep in mind they're Slow and Purposeful which means they don't get to fire Overwatch.

[Aegir]

Oh...I need to look more carfully to defiler:)... I just sneak upon the CSM new codex and I didn't realized that is so powerfull:) Ok... so ML for all. And some good news... can you tell my why slow and purposeful units can't make overwatch?... So if I'm correct I can assault them without any fear that they'll kill me with BS1 :):)

[Aegir]

So, I won...

My friend had:

1. HQ

sorcerer with wings and spell familiar + Doombolt? S8 AP1 assault 1?

2. Ellite:

noise marines

Possesed

troops:

2x Thousand sons

1x normal marines

Heavy:

Havocs

defiler

My thoughts:

If you can't assault after disembark from vehicle that have not moved It sucks.... a lot

ML are still best HW option -> Instant death on sorcerer:):)
Another good option still are LS Typhoons for 140 points You have two HB and two heavy 2 ML

Small sqads of 5 man with ML and flamer are also good choice... Camping on objective, and last turn go to ground:)

Flamers are very good choice.. Overwatch with two flamers can be usefull 2D6 hits.

Oh, Overwatch... nice thing... normal chaos space marines fires 18shots from bolter against my assault sqad killing three of them... nice.

Power swords are killers of 3+ now.

MoS with pair of LC charging with I5 is deadly... 6A (3 base, 1 two weapons, 2 from charge), with re-roll to hits from litanies and to wound from LC SR slice and dice:) there is just one big thing... I must charge!! If I'm charged it is worse than bad...

weterans of the long war and hatred to SM is also quite deadly if you fight against 15 man sqad...

And finally assault sqad's with MoS when charging they're deadly with two flamers and PS.. but for 22pts vs 19 for raptors including champion, and krak granades... that's hurt. And...and If I'll fight against warp talons it would be mistake... That sucks... Probably next time I'll take two terminator sqads with 2CML each.. more rockets.

And one more... defiler is hard to kill via it will not die and good dice rolls of my friend.

And that's all...one more AACNMtO Is overpriced now.. probably I'll take one of the rest Vows.. of course charging wit 6 attacks is nice... but If I'm charged I don't have bonus attack's and can't re-roll hits due to litanies so It's not worth it's point cost's...

Next time I'll try MoS on bike T5 is also quite nice option

Cheers

[Learn2Eel]

He was running the Sorcerer alone?

By the way, just to let you know, with two flamers it would be 2D3 hits, not 2D6 (it is D3 automatic hits per flamer).
Good to see an old codex doing well!

[gcsmith]

Also, about the no assault from transports. It's no assault from tansport at all in the turn you disembark unless it's assault. And you can only disembark from transports that have moved 6" :D

and about vows, aacnmto is the only viable for anything. The other vows are crap. The anti psyker one is now actually useless seeing as you already get a roll now.

[Aegir]

Well of course:) I meant 2d3 hits... but thought 2d3=d6 and i wrote 2d6.. summary of my writting fingers and different thoughts.

Yes, sorcerer was alone , for 1 turn only and then i shoot him from ML.

For the rest of the game he was in TS squad.

About assault's I know the rules but it s...ks a lot If you wan't to have some CC units...

On warseer there was interesting topic about tactics for BT in 6ed and they wrote about sufer not the unclean to live..is now good choice, because we have most shooting army (silly I know...), and we have terminators with S10 and P. Fists also with S10... but I'm not convinced. uphold the honour of the emperor +1str -1Ini if I'm correct... I don't have book near my hands. , uphold the honour of the emperor s..ks 6++ inv save is nothing. Abhor the witch 5+ deny the witch also is poor.
AACNtO is good but only if you are charging. In other way its worthless. SO we must have skill to charge first. 4LRC army list? for 2000 why not...But if we go 6 then I can disembark from LRC, move 6 and charge up to 12. Am I correct? and we also can fire from one weapon due to PoMS(with normal BS), and rest snap shot? please answer.

fact is that we have poor codex now, and I can't wait until some new FAQ, or maby huge update in WD.. because new dex is far away from us.

Ok, that's for now bb