Noise Champions: Full of Sound and Fury, signifying Nothing Good in CC

[DWest]

I was looking to see if Noise Marines could be kitted out as a decent HQ escort for melee combat and I have stumbled across a problem:

You cannot give the Noise Champion a Bolt Pistol + Power Weapon. The Champ comes with one (1) Bolt Pistol and one (1) Boltgun; the pistol may be traded in for a CCW/Chainaxe/PW, etc. etc., but the Boltgun can only be traded in on the Ranged Table, and the only pistol there is the Plasma Pistol. So that's 30 points just for the +1 attack in CC.

Did GW forget to add the item to the Champ's wargear, or should I just go ahead and glue my Noise Marines to a static display base, and never again shall they know the sweet joys of CC? (Well, until somebody assaults them to shut them up!)

[Nabterayl]

You seem to be assuming that a Noise Champion is not a Noise Marine. I know that fits the usual string-matching rules, but reading the rest of the codex, I don't think Kelly wrote that way. It looks to me like Aspiring Champions are still Chaos Space Marines, and Noise Champions are still Noise Marines.

[DarkLink]

Hah, this is funny. I don't see why people like Phil Kelly's rules so much over the other guys, he messes stuff up as much as everyone else.

[Eberk]

I agree with Nabterayl. You can give your Noise Champion an close combat weapon, just like 'normal' Noise Marines can. You can then trade that for a power sword.

[eldargal]

Yes but when he messes up the result is usually still a well balanced, fun to play book. When the others mess up you get ridiculously over or under powered books that can really spoil the whole metagame.

Hah, this is funny. I don't see why people like Phil Kelly's rules so much over the other guys, he messes stuff up as much as everyone else.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

...example?


inb4 Mat Ward debate.

[eldargal]

Well with Ward you had Grey Knights being generally regarded as overpowered. With Cruddace you have IG having some of the most OP builds in the game but also many useless choices and with Tyranids you have the codex that is widely regarded as the most underpowered in the game. Things have changed a bit with 6th edition but the general trend is still there. Contrast to Kelly where you have Space Wolves which were competitibe but not really overpowered, Dark Eldar which is the single best code GW have ever released and CSM which most people seem to be happy with, a few wording errors and possible omissions notwithstanding.

The trend continues in WFB to some extent, though under 8th the balance is much more consistent. Cruddaces two books are verging a tad on the underpowered, the VC book by Kelly is considered to be spot on again and the Okre Kingdoms book by Vetck (and JJ) being considered more competitive.

[DarkLink]

Space Wolves are just as OP as Grey Knights ever were, and for all the complaints Grey Knights have fantastic internal balance and are well balanced with the other late 5th ed codices. Phil Kelly also wrote Eldar with their Flying Circus and terrible internal balance. Regardless, there are just so many things about this codex in particular that make them think WTF?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Grey Knights are pretty weak in my opinion, they've never beaten me...
I still think that the Necron Codex is the best Codex available, it's so balanced and so deadly it's unreal!
I can't wait to see the Dark Angels one (I CAN HAS BETTER EZEKIEL PLEASE? KTHXBYE)
As for Space Wolves, well, I don't like Space Wolves at all. They're butthurt marines.


I thought Tomb Kings was also supposed to be a good book?

[eldargal]

Bollocks, Space Wolves were whined about because some units were a bit OP, but then GK came along and showed people what a real OP book was. I grant the internal balance was good but the balance in relation to other books is terrible and the army is just mindnumbingly tedious to play against, win or lose. I also recall an article on BoLS, perhaps by BigRed, disucussing how they were damned boring to use, too. There is a reason it is controversial in a way even the very competitive Necrons book is not. The 4th ed Eldar book was actually considered rather good at the time and it has aged better than most of the other old books though it is really past its best now. There was nothing wrong with its internal balance at the time.

Tomb Kings is an adequate book, but it could have been much better. He did a lot better with his Empire army book, it is really rather good but again there are a few things which really make no sense (mortars being nerfed AND increased in price 33% when one or the other would have been perfect, for example).

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

(by flying circus I think he meant Dark Eldar)

Ahhhh, you see, I can't believe it when people say they're OP. They're too elite. They can't get the numbers.

As such, I can always swamp them.

[eldargal]

I don't think he means Dark Eldar, if he thinks Dark Eldar have terrible internal balance then he's gone completely insane. Which I doubt. The fact is DE are extremely well balanced, they only have one weak unnit choice in the whole book and it isn't bad, it just competes against better elites choices (Mandrakes).

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Ah. Well then, the name "flying circus" is an awful description.

Still don't think Grey Knights are OP.

[eldargal]

Well I never had much of a problem with them either, apart from being bored to tears playing against them.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

To be fair EG it is in their name "GREY Knights". :p

[DWest]

You seem to be assuming that a Noise Champion is not a Noise Marine. I know that fits the usual string-matching rules
Is there anywhere official that definitively states "string matching is out"? Because so far I've seen a bunch of places where it's *inconvenient*, but nowhere that says it's no longer a rule.

Compare the Chaos Terminator squad (C: CSM pg 97)- it says in the Options "Any Chaos Terminator may replace his combi-bolter and power weapon with a pair of lightning claws . . . 7 pts" and then later on "The Terminator Champion may take items the Terminator Weapons section of the wargear list." Flipping to the Terminator Weapons (C: CSM pg 91), replacing the combi-bolter and power weapon with a lightning claw each costs a total of 22 points. So then, which way is correct? The cheaper or the more expensive option? And can you show me the rules text which supports this option? I am asking seriously here, I know GW's rules are nothing like razor sharp, but I'd like some precedent to work with for dealing with other problems when the crop up. Thanks in advance.

[Wildcard]

EG: What makes you personally think Grey Knights are OP? And why they are boring to play against (if you compare to other marine codex f.ex?)

(Following is not directed towards anyone specific)

Personally i am sick and tired of people whining (and not even be willing to play a random game) because of the GK. There are two weapons available for infantry in general that can hurt tanks: NDaemon Hammer & Psycannon. 33% of our special weapons are completely useless, and if we go for the incinerator that leaves us out of range (and possibility) of hurting tanks.

So, not to be competitive, but only to be able to damage some (most in some areas nowadays) vehicles, GK players will need to take psycannons. Paying 80points for TL LC, or TL Psycannon for razorback, that is sure to be dead after the enemys first turn is nowhere near practical, since you are forced to pay 100-150 extra to be able to get that Razorback.. Its not fun :(

Secondly, our wargear options in general are unimaginative, boring, and created in such a way it requires forces the treaded 'spam', and at some cases not even consistent with the rulebook (and wording as i understand it).. New chaos book instead has all the marine wargear toys available to them, and lots of chaos unique stuff aswell. And not to mention the Artefacts section (which is in my opinion the most brilliant thing i've seen in 40k dex since, like ever?)

Ps. i play grey knights, and wont use inquisition, since, they arent grey knights

[eldargal]

I don't think they are OP, just somewhat undercosted in some cases. Signficantly less of a problem in 6th with wound allocation shenanigans removed. But they are widely regarded as being OP and not just by whiners on Warseer. The point is people have a lot of issues with the book, and just because they are competitive doesn't mean those criticisms are invalid. By contrast there is a lot less fuss about many of the other codices, even Space Wolves which were considered OP. The point I'm trying to make is that Kellys books are much more consistently balanced, no one is arguing they are perfect.



Secondly, our wargear options in general are unimaginative, boring, and created in such a way it requires forces the treaded 'spam', and at some cases not even consistent with the rulebook (and wording as i understand it).. New chaos book instead has all the marine wargear toys available to them, and lots of chaos unique stuff aswell. And not to mention the Artefacts section (which is in my opinion the most brilliant thing i've seen in 40k dex since, like ever?
This is my main problem with the book, it is really dull to play against and when I tried making a GK list for fun it really didn't have much flavour to it.

[Nabterayl]

Is there anywhere official that definitively states "string matching is out"? Because so far I've seen a bunch of places where it's *inconvenient*, but nowhere that says it's no longer a rule.

Compare the Chaos Terminator squad (C: CSM pg 97)- it says in the Options "Any Chaos Terminator may replace his combi-bolter and power weapon with a pair of lightning claws . . . 7 pts" and then later on "The Terminator Champion may take items the Terminator Weapons section of the wargear list." Flipping to the Terminator Weapons (C: CSM pg 91), replacing the combi-bolter and power weapon with a lightning claw each costs a total of 22 points. So then, which way is correct? The cheaper or the more expensive option? And can you show me the rules text which supports this option? I am asking seriously here, I know GW's rules are nothing like razor sharp, but I'd like some precedent to work with for dealing with other problems when the crop up. Thanks in advance.
Well, exact string matching was never a rule - just a canon of construction adopted by the community. While it has generally seemed to be a good one, that doesn't mean Kelly holds to it. To take the terminator example, it's entirely possible that Kelly was aware that there are two ways to get a terminator champion lightning claws and just assumed nobody would take the more expensive one.

That said, I do see the argument for holding to the exact string matching canon. In the berzerker entry, for instance, "any model" may take a chainaxe for 3 points. That plainly includes the berzerker champion. Certainly if this were a legal scenario it would be perfectly legit to argue that since Kelly clearly knows how to write "any model," we should assume that when he didn't, he did so on purpose. As a drafter of multi-hundred page contracts I know that simply isn't the way things always work, but it would be legit.

So I don't think people can be faulted for insisting on things like CSM/noise marines being able to buy a third weapon but aspiring champions/noise champions not being able to. I don't think I can bring myself to insist on that to my friends who play Chaos, but from a textual standpoint, I don't see any way to prove that the exact string matching canon doesn't hold.

[SacredChao]

Well, exact string matching was never a rule - just a canon of construction adopted by the community. While it has generally seemed to be a good one, that doesn't mean Kelly holds to it. To take the terminator example, it's entirely possible that Kelly was aware that there are two ways to get a terminator champion lightning claws and just assumed nobody would take the more expensive one.

That said, I do see the argument for holding to the exact string matching canon. In the berzerker entry, for instance, "any model" may take a chainaxe for 3 points. That plainly includes the berzerker champion. Certainly if this were a legal scenario it would be perfectly legit to argue that since Kelly clearly knows how to write "any model," we should assume that when he didn't, he did so on purpose. As a drafter of multi-hundred page contracts I know that simply isn't the way things always work, but it would be legit.

So I don't think people can be faulted for insisting on things like CSM/noise marines being able to buy a third weapon but aspiring champions/noise champions not being able to. I don't think I can bring myself to insist on that to my friends who play Chaos, but from a textual standpoint, I don't see any way to prove that the exact string matching canon doesn't hold.

In addition it seems that the Noise Marine champion is the only power armor champion in the codex to NOT have the CCW. The CSM champion comes with it, while the rest have to pay or swap. So either the Noise Marine Champion has a mistake OR the fact that you can just take a S-5, AP-3 Flamer without replacing anything is bringing the champion into balance. Either way, that codex entry is kinda wonky with the weird wording on the blastmaster ;p

[inquisitorsog]

That said, I do see the argument for holding to the exact string matching canon. In the berzerker entry, for instance, "any model" may take a chainaxe for 3 points. That plainly includes the berzerker champion. Certainly if this were a legal scenario it would be perfectly legit to argue that since Kelly clearly knows how to write "any model," we should assume that when he didn't, he did so on purpose. As a drafter of multi-hundred page contracts I know that simply isn't the way things always work, but it would be legit.


For what it's worth, the same syntax exists in Plague Marines. If one asserts the "Noise Champion is a Noise Marine", then the same logic follows to all of the other entries in the book, meaning a Plague Champion can replace their bolt gun with a flamer,etc.

It switches from the proper nouns to the non-specific "one model" even in the same entry for the Noise Marines. It seems inexplicable that they'd switch back and forth between syntax even in the same entry unless there was a purpose to it. Otherwise, I'm sure that "Kelly" is just a pen name for Cthulhu and this codex is the means to turn us all into frothing-at-the-mouth, bat-guano insane cultists.

[Kyban]

I don't have the book to look at right now but I would think that the champion would have access to the same options as the marines. Most books have it worded like "any model" rather than "X Marine", right? It seems like most of Kelly's books are a little confusing with that kind of wording. He often uses varied wording and I tend to have more rules questions about his books than others.

[inquisitorsog]

I don't have the book to look at right now but I would think that the champion would have access to the same options as the marines. Most books have it worded like "any model" rather than "X Marine", right? It seems like most of Kelly's books are a little confusing with that kind of wording. He often uses varied wording and I tend to have more rules questions about his books than others.

Looking at Grey Knights, the Terminators entry. A "Terminator" can change out to a heavy weapon if the unit is large enough. Meanwhile the very next option is "Any model" can change out their nemesis weapon. It's pretty clear GW* was being specific that the Justicar would not be able to take a heavy weapon whilst he could switch out his nemesis if so desired. I can't read that entry any other way.

*- Author only matters for comparing the various qualities of the codices. I'm not about to get into "read the rules one way when written by Ward and another way when written by Kelly".

[Mr.Pickelz]

So far no has mentioned Codex Orks. That was Phil Kelly's writing as well, which gave us a dumbed down wargear section (Big choppa's still are AP -) in which Power Klaws are the only real choice, and some units are either overcosted and/or never used. (Flash Gitz being one of them) While the Codex is still a good book, even two editions later, there's still issues with it.

[Nabterayl]

Speaking of orks, Kelly allowed nob squad leaders to take special/heavy weapons in that book. I don't think that is dispositive one way or the other but it is interesting.

[Kyban]

The BRB says:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit , with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapon and wargear choices

That makes it sound like they count as a trooper and could take the same options as one.

[DarkLink]

The 4th ed Eldar book was actually considered rather good at the time and it has aged better than most of the other old books though it is really past its best now. There was nothing wrong with its internal balance at the time.



(by flying circus I think he meant Dark Eldar)

Ahhhh, you see, I can't believe it when people say they're OP. They're too elite. They can't get the numbers.

As such, I can always swamp them.

No, I'm talking about the triple Falcon/Harlequin list that was flat-out broken at the end of 4th. That and Nidzilla was like Purifier Spam, Driagowing, Long Fang spam, and Venom Spam all rolled into one. Several of Kelley's books have been as ill balanced as anything Matt Ward ever wrote, and don't forget Matt Ward also wrote Space Marines which are a very balanced army, even if THSS Terminators are a little annoying. Orks are another example of a codex with relatively poor internal balanced. 6th ed has been a huge improvement to Orks, but Orks have units that are obvious choices compared to other units in their slot. No one ever takes Flash Gitz, for example.

Anyways, my point is that Phil Kelly's track record is not that dissimilar to some of the other codex authors. He's had balanced books, and not so balanced books.