The Current and Future Possibilities of Chaos Daemons

[Collin O'Brien]

As they were the first real Warhammer 40k army I have owned, I have a great fondness for Chaos Daemons.

I've seen and heard of players with a great deal of success using Chaos Daemons, but based on my own one to two years of experience with them I am convinced that success using a daemon army primarily comes down to luck and how much firepower your opponent is capable of producing.

I still use daemons, more for my love of them in general than for expected success on the battlefield, though thanks to GW's current rule set I can field a Keeper of Secrets, some Horrors, and a mass of Daemonettes as allies, lending some extra flavor to my force as well as filling in a few tactical roles that could potentially be useful.

How do you all feel Chaos Daemons could be improved? What do you hope to see in the next codex? How has sixth edition been treating you so far, given that I have not actually had a chance to try them yet in the new edition?

Also, how would you feel about this? Considering how chaotic and mixed you would expect an actual army of daemons to be, how about having every unit choice be Daemon Mob/Horde/Band, made up of a number of figures from any type of daemons within the force org slot? For example, you could have a unit of Daemonettes and Plaguebearers, keeping the bearers out front to shield from harm and letting the Daemonettes actually get into close combat, or a mixed unit of Daemonettes and Bloodletters for serious killing power. Though if the group contains daemons of opposing types (khorne/slaanesh and tzeentch/nurgle), perhaps some sort of animosity test could be included...

[The Wizard]

I've been playing daemons for a few years now and I must say this new edition has given them a massive boost.

Changes to fearless, deep strike and reserve rolls - slightly less random daemons is good

The new updated Screamers and Flamers - they are amazing. 69 points gets you a min squad of flamers, dropping them on the first turn can sometimes win you first blood. Screamers can drop far away out in the open, and then turbo boost 24" to be wherever you want them to be. Screamers are the new answer to terminators (after 'Crushers got the AP3 nerf) and they can take on armour easy as well.

Changes to beasts - Ignoring cover is brilliant. With move through cover they ignore dangerous terrain tests! Drop your fiends in cover then zoom through it. Unfortunately they still get I1 charging through cover, but at least they are not slowed by it.

I've been having some success at the moment with Fatweaver and a cloud of Screamers, with some guard allies as objective grabbers (plus a Vendetta. Too good to pass up.). Fateweaver is a FMC so you need 6's to hit him, and he grants that lovely re-roll to the screamers 4+ turbo boost jink save.

Your last idea I feel would be better keeping it mono god hordes - take daemonettes, fiends and seekers in a horde, then bloodletters/crushers/flesh hounds etc.

So I wouldn't say no to a new codex, but at the moment everything's peachy. It's a exciting time for Daemons, allies just give so many options!

[Collin O'Brien]

Great to hear! Looking forward to using my daemon allies on Saturday for the first time in ages.

Though I know it probably won't get off too many times, I'm interested in the possibility of giving my Keeper of Secrets Pavane of Slaanesh... which can now not only serve as a stand-in for the old fleet move, but can fire as Overwatch :)

[Learn2Eel]

If the rumours are true and they are re-done in January, I'll be all over them. I want to start them now but it's like - wait for the new codex in case anything major changes.
The changes I would want to see are;

1) General points reductions across the board. Pretty much every unit in the codex is too expensive for what they do, with a few notable exceptions (Flamers and Screamers of Tzeentch, etc). As much as a close combat model from hell in the Troops section sounds great, it isn't when it has no ranged weaponry, must endure at least a round of shooting and is not very durable, and is the same points cost as a standard Tactical Marine that is far more versatile. I'd like to see some more accurate points costs to reflect a unit's abilities, ala the new Chaos Space Marines codex. Greater Daemons, especially, need a huge decrease.

2) A fix to the 'always deep strike' rules. As it is now, assault-based Daemons armies are hamstrung by having to Deep Strike, scatter, risk mishaps, determine a good position to come down, withstand at least one round of shooting and not being very durable. Tzeentch/shooty daemons obviously don't have any real problems with this, but it is unfair that the other armies - particularly Slaanesh and Khorne - suffer from this rule. Whilst it is cool and fluffy, it needs to be changed to benefit all Daemons, not just Tzeentch with their alpha-strike bullplop. I propose either starting on the game board or having the option to assault from Deep Strike. The former would actually make sense, however Daemons would have to be re-worked significantly for this - footslogging assault lists still aren't great. The latter would be great, but people would cry OP as soon as a Bloodletter squad charges their Tactical Squad and butchers them off of a Deep Strike. However, I think it would at least bring Khorne/Slaanesh/Nurgle lists in-line with Tzeentch lists, giving them real damage potential when they arrive. Considering all the things such as Deep Strike scatter, mishaps, overwatch and random charge length, I hardly think it would be OP. In any case, it needs fixing.

3) Better Greater Daemons. Heralds are fine as they are, and are usually appropriately costed - a points reduction would be good though in general. However, Greater Daemons tend to be too expensive for what they do, at least in my opinion. I think in particular, if you are a Tzeentch or Khorne player the entry fees of their associated greater daemons is a bit much, especially for smaller games. Keep them as powerful as they are, or give them a buff, but reduce their points costs. The Keeper of Secrets and Great Unclean One don't need it as much, but they would both be well off with a few minor changes too. Ideally, I would like to see the Great Unclean One made tougher than he is (really, in what way is he tougher than a Bloodthirster? Oh, he has an extra wound and Feel No Pain, however, the Bloodthirster has +3 armour, strikes quicker in combat and will thus kill more before they get to attack him). In fact, give all of them a power boost - especially if they are going to lose Eternal Warrior (see below, Point 9). Daemon Princes have crazy statlines now (albeit with no Eternal Warrior). The Greater Daemons should be even crazier. Here's a rough idea for all of them;

Bloodthirster - WS10, BS5, S8, T6, W5, I6, A6, LD10, Sv 3+, 4++
Has Instant Death.

Lord of Change - WS6, BS8, S6, T6, W5, I6, A4, LD10, Sv 3++
Can shoot three times a turn.

Great Unclean One - WS7, BS5, S6, T8, W6, I3, A5, LD10, Sv 4++
Fleshbane, Poisoned.

Keeper of Secrets - WS9, BS5, S6, T6, W5, I10, A7, LD10, Sv 4++
Fleet, Rending, Hit and Run, move as Beast

Much more frightening this way. They are damned Greater Daemons. They should be amongst the scariest opponents for any enemy to face. With the new Daemon Prince statline and the crazy abilities they have, you would think the Greater Daemons would be even more exemplified.

4) Give us a named-character Keeper of Secrets. It is a bit unfair that the other three gods get named Greater Daemons (Skarbrand, Fateweaver, etc) and yet Slaanesh does not. This also leads into....

5) Change the current named-character Greater Daemons. Fateweaver should not have the 'run off the table' ability. As unlikely as it is, it is absolutely ridiculous that you can lose the single most expensive base-cost HQ in the game to a lucky lasgun shot. Also, bring his damn points cost down. Whilst his abilities are imba, you could run 20 Pink Horrors for almost the same cost. Silly. Skarbrand should be changed to be much cheaper. Why is he more expensive than a Bloodthirster that actually has wings? Why does he cost so much in the first place? His abilities aren't great. Buff and slash price. Kugath only really needs what everything needs - his actual abilities are fine.

6) Give us some rules to go with Chaos Space Marines. Whilst the CSM codex didn't really feature any of this, it would perhaps make sense for such rules to be included with Daemons. As Battle Brothers, we do get some great benefits, so maybe this isn't really necessary.

7) Skulltaker. Why? For slightly more I can get a named Daemon Prince (Forgeworld) that is insanely more powerful. He's killy but he is too expensive. The Masque either needs to be made an Independent Character or given better abilities. Epidemius is fine. The Blue Scribes need to be....less random, more quality. Basically, for all four, again, price drop.

8) Do a Phil Kelly. Either get rid of the useless units or actually make them competitive, instead of having units that are quite obviously superior to others in their slot (i.e. Bloodcrushers, Flamers, Screamers, Fiends, Daemon Princes, etc). In CSM our Fast Attack and Heavy Support choices are so congested with competitive options that there is no real 'take me!' option. Plus, it should be like this - this is Chaos Daemons, with four major themes that hobbyists will adhere to. Make all mono-god armies competitive in general, as opposed to two being far superior to the other two (Nurgle/Tzeentch). Like with Chaos Marines, encourage a theme, but don't hamstring a player for wanting to do a mix.

9) Daemon Princes. Not really something that needs fixing, but moreso an observation - if Daemon Princes are not Eternal Warriors in the new Chaos Space Marines codex, does this mean Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes will lose Eternal Warrior as well? There's no doubt their statline and probably their points cost will be brought in line with CSM Daemon Princes, albeit with different upgrades available. However, it does make me wonder - as the Daemon special rule in the rulebook does not confer Eternal Warrior, and seeing as how the CSM codex flouted these new special rules, is it altogether possible that Chaos Daemons will lose their army-wide Eternal Warrior rules? Just a thought. If it does happen, then the army would have to be majorly reworked to compensate. Greater Daemons pay for that boost. Could you imagine T5 Fateweaver running around and prone to instant-death from any smashing monstrous creature?

[Collin O'Brien]

Yeah, as a lover of all things Slaanesh, I've always felt cheated by not being given a named Keeper, and the herald we get can't even join squads.

Princes not having EW scares me and makes no sense. They already get killed so quickly by virtually anything my opponent throws at them through sheer number of shots, why do they have to get instant-killed by Vindicators or Railguns too? Not that I see too many, but it is a concern....

[Collin O'Brien]

It strikes me that in the latest White Dwarf update, they took the flamers and screamers, lessened their points values, and increased their number of wounds, at the cost of losing their invulnerable saves and gaining the basic daemon rule from the main manual... wondering if this is going to be the trend for Daemons' next codex.... It makes sense, since most of the basic troops etc. only have a 5+ invulnerable anyways and it's likely the whole reason they introduced Daemon as a basic unit rule in the main rule book... my only concern is what will happen to Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes... my Keeper of Secrets already dies so quickly with a 4+ save, even if they give him more wounds he'll lose them faster than ever... and we've already seen what's likely to happen to our princes...

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I don't think ALL Daemons will be reduced to a 5++ (Horrors probably will, though), plenty will have an additional, better save, just like how Terminators have a natural 5++ but can get 3++ Storm shields.

[Collin O'Brien]

I don't think ALL Daemons will be reduced to a 5++ (Horrors probably will, though), plenty will have an additional, better save, just like how Terminators have a natural 5++ but can get 3++ Storm shields.

Okay yeah, that makes sense :)

[Denzark]

Having just returned from the Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World, I can tell you that Daemons are the new nasty list. Ys, nastier than Cron Air, at least at 1500. One chap ran max screamers, max flamers, min pink horrors and a herald.

The whole point of that list is not to worry about objectives or even fliers, but to table people. He went 5-0-0. 3 of those games, he tabled the opponents by turn 3 - 2 of these so quickly that not all reserves had come on and 3-400 points of deathstar in a storm raven were left off table sort of thing.

You can even call it a fluff list because it was all Tzeentch!

Daemons have no vulnerabilites at 1500 points, the synergy is good.

[Collin O'Brien]

Having just returned from the Throne of Skulls at Warhammer World, I can tell you that Daemons are the new nasty list. Ys, nastier than Cron Air, at least at 1500. One chap ran max screamers, max flamers, min pink horrors and a herald.

The whole point of that list is not to worry about objectives or even fliers, but to table people. He went 5-0-0. 3 of those games, he tabled the opponents by turn 3 - 2 of these so quickly that not all reserves had come on and 3-400 points of deathstar in a storm raven were left off table sort of thing.

You can even call it a fluff list because it was all Tzeentch!

Daemons have no vulnerabilites at 1500 points, the synergy is good.

I do use Tzeentch units, in fact I am converting four leftover Horrors into Flamers at the moment, but I have played Daemons for several years and although it is a new edition, I feel that things have not changed that much for us Chaos players.... Opponents can field many rapid-fire guns or guns with high volumes of shots at 1500 points, which will easily table us (I have much experience with this, the second players figured out they could just rush in and shoot me to death the moment I drop I started losing games left and right). Daemons do have a great deal of vulnerability, especially if you don't use the new screamers and flamers...