Csm faq

[The Shadow King]

It's not much, but the old Chaos Space Marines FAQ seems to have vanished from the GW site. Sign of a new FAQ very soon?

[DrLove42]

Well.....consdidering the old one was for a codex thats not in production or use anymore....its probably not suprising its gone

[Wolfshade]

Yes, the FAQ was for the old codex so is irrelevant. Hopefully, all the questions answered by the last one would be incorporated into the new codex, especially as it will now be written for the correct edition :)

[The Shadow King]

But the point is it's only just disappeared this afternoon, they have left it this long to get rid of the out-of-date edition

[Wolfshade]

It was only released this month, so 2 weeks into it to update and remove and those changes to propagate through, not too slow I don't think.

[inquisitorsog]

It was only released this month, so 2 weeks into it to update and remove and those changes to propagate through, not too slow I don't think.

For a formal FAQ, yes, it's fine. However, there's little to no reason they couldn't have gotten Kelly's response out much earlier on some of the questions as to "what is RAI" on very basic questions. All it would take is an entry in their daily blog. Done. Two weeks of arguing over things he muffed on done in a heart beat. Sure, there's inevitably some deeper questions that may take consultation with the entire studio, but basic things like the whole zombie debate could have been put to bed no later than the following Tuesday. According to some forums, Kelly knew there was a debate about it almost immediately (or there were people claiming to be in contact with them, although the people in question seem to have more to lose making a false claim than a positive one).

this is the 21st century. GW is certainly large enough to figure out how to do these things WHEN THEY ALREADY HAVE the technology and are using it.

EDIT: GW is failing at rule number one by letting really basic questions hang out there. Leaving it to chance that someone has a game ruined over a rule debate that GW already knows is a problem and GW already has an answer for is just plain stupid.

[magickbk]

Considering how broken the FAQ pages are (I can only access the 40K page, but then once there you can pick the other systems from the links at the left), I wouldn't be surprised that it took them a while to fix.

[L192837465]

For a formal FAQ, yes, it's fine. However, there's little to no reason they couldn't have gotten Kelly's response out much earlier on some of the questions as to "what is RAI" on very basic questions. All it would take is an entry in their daily blog. Done. Two weeks of arguing over things he muffed on done in a heart beat. Sure, there's inevitably some deeper questions that may take consultation with the entire studio, but basic things like the whole zombie debate could have been put to bed no later than the following Tuesday. According to some forums, Kelly knew there was a debate about it almost immediately (or there were people claiming to be in contact with them, although the people in question seem to have more to lose making a false claim than a positive one).

this is the 21st century. GW is certainly large enough to figure out how to do these things WHEN THEY ALREADY HAVE the technology and are using it.

EDIT: GW is failing at rule number one by letting really basic questions hang out there. Leaving it to chance that someone has a game ruined over a rule debate that GW already knows is a problem and GW already has an answer for is just plain stupid.


Looks like their strategy is working just fine, and they are in fact SUCCEEDING at this so-called "rule number one" (which isn't "use the internet to answer all the bullsh*t stupid people ask", but is actually "Make money" which they're doing hand over fist)

Since you're still active and playing, they must be doing something right. I think that gamers have a massively inflated sense of urgency. How long will this book be used for? 3? 4 years? That's 156-208 weeks. And you're complaining about 2 of them? No, Kelly shouldn't go on his blagosphere and post answers to questions. BECAUSE THAT'S NOT OFFICIAL. Technically speaking, nor are the FAQs. OMG!!! YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR A SINGLE RULE THAT COULD EASILY BE BRUSHED ASIDE OR DICED OFF FOR TWO WHOLE WEEKS!? WOE IS YOU!!

I think it's fine they took down a faq for a book that's no longer used. Hopefully they'll get a faq up soon, but whatever. Lulz ensue.

[inquisitorsog]

Looks like their strategy is working just fine, and they are in fact SUCCEEDING at this so-called "rule number one" (which isn't "use the internet to answer all the bullsh*t stupid people ask", but is actually "Make money" which they're doing hand over fist)

Since you're still active and playing, they must be doing something right. I think that gamers have a massively inflated sense of urgency. How long will this book be used for? 3? 4 years? That's 156-208 weeks. And you're complaining about 2 of them? No, Kelly shouldn't go on his blagosphere and post answers to questions. BECAUSE THAT'S NOT OFFICIAL. Technically speaking, nor are the FAQs. OMG!!! YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER FOR A SINGLE RULE THAT COULD EASILY BE BRUSHED ASIDE OR DICED OFF FOR TWO WHOLE WEEKS!? WOE IS YOU!!

I think it's fine they took down a faq for a book that's no longer used. Hopefully they'll get a faq up soon, but whatever. Lulz ensue.

So if I translate that:
"GW is too big to worry that someone may walk away from their products".

Did I get that right?

It's not about patience or any of that. It's about good customer service. It's stupid to miss an opportunity to make customers more happy with your product when it really wouldn't cost you anything. Just plain stupid. They've already got the channels to say "we've had some questions, here's some short term answers on what we think about them". I'm not saying they need to answer every question ,but sticking their head in the sand is silly.

[el_tigre]

I totally agree, it's only common courtesy to help with something so simple. Considering what we're paying for the product now a little consideration for the customer shouldn't be something we have to ask for, or even discuss.

[magickbk]

I like that they don't push things out too frequently. Back in the day, every White Dwarf issue had a 1-2 page Chapter Approved section with Errata, clarifications, and FAQs. It was a complete nightmare for all the players to keep current on, and since it was written by different studio members it could be wildly inconsistent. I would appreciate a standard release schedule though. If they released FAQ updates, for example, every 6 months on a specific date, then the nets would at least know when to expect changes.

Having said that, I don't think the Studio is letting anyone hang, I just think they are isolated from the community. They probably finished with the Chaos Codex months ago and are currently playtesting the next 2 or 3, using the Chaos Codex RAI, because they are a close-knit group that would come up with a consensus on what is in there, and probably don't have WAAC or rules lawyers in their group.

[Denzark]

GW's own business blurb repeatedly says they are a miniature manufacture, a toy soldier company. The rules are an aside. Our US cousins may be used to people waiting on them hand and feet and wishing them: 'Have a nice day' but I don't think that is what GW rate asgood customer service ie speedy faqqing. Actually as long as they keep replacing missing items or miscasts without quibble I will exercise patience with their faqs...

[Caitsidhe]

GW's own business blurb repeatedly says they are a miniature manufacture, a toy soldier company. The rules are an aside. Our US cousins may be used to people waiting on them hand and feet and wishing them: 'Have a nice day' but I don't think that is what GW rate asgood customer service ie speedy faqqing. Actually as long as they keep replacing missing items or miscasts without quibble I will exercise patience with their faqs...

Yeah... they SAY that all the time. :) What do you think would happen to their sales if they discontinued the game side altogether? :D More to the point, their company name is GAMES Workshop. Think about it.

[L192837465]

So if I translate that:
"GW is too big to worry that someone may walk away from their products".

Did I get that right?

It's not about patience or any of that. It's about good customer service. It's stupid to miss an opportunity to make customers more happy with your product when it really wouldn't cost you anything. Just plain stupid. They've already got the channels to say "we've had some questions, here's some short term answers on what we think about them". I'm not saying they need to answer every question ,but sticking their head in the sand is silly.

2011 revenue: 62 million pounds. How much you spent: 300? maybe 400? Yeah.

I wouldn't say they're sticking their head in the sand. Since you know, they've been coming out with FAQs quicker, you're just complaining that it takes them all of more than two whole weeks. My god, those selfish pricks! How dare they ignore the screams of internet as*holes worldwide!

And no, producing a rules update isn't "free". Someone will have to do it, and that someone is paid a salary, and it has to be playtested, reviewed, cleared with upper management, written, and coded, all of which takes time and time is money. Think a GW exec gives even two sh*ts about you? No. Mainly because they know that if you put on your big boy shorts, you could wait a few weeks after the release of a new edition, starter box, codex, army book, numerous models, distribution of said products and a million other things, I'd say it's a godd*mned miracle we get FAQs at all.

I'm not saying the FAQs are dumb or trying to insult you, but seriously. Two weeks. You're complaining after two. Weeks. Lets see how long Apple (renowned corporation known for its customer service) takes for a turnaround or patch update: iTunes update: 4 months. Apple TV: 5 months. OSX Lion: 3 months.

You're complaining about two. weeks.

[Denzark]

Yeah... they SAY that all the time. :) What do you think would happen to their sales if they discontinued the game side altogether? :D More to the point, their company name is GAMES Workshop. Think about it.

I don't think anything happens to their sales by taking as long as they have been on FAQ release so what's your point?

[inquisitorsog]

2011 revenue: 62 million pounds. How much you spent: 300? maybe 400? Yeah.

Arguing "GW doesn't give two sh**ts" about me just tells me you're not even paying attention to what I was saying. Am I mad or impatient they don't have a rule update? no.

I just think they're missing an opportunity to provide better customer service. And not spend money having their customer service people sort through the same email over and over again. Did that occur to you? I'm not demanding they answer difficult questions. I'm just saying that in this day and age, when there's an editorial issue (i.e. ERRATA, not FAQ), they should regard it as a bit of a priority.

I've been in the same boat where I've had a product that's had a problem and our front line people end up walloped by customers. Arguing they don't care about customers is also arguing they don't care about their employees. the reality is they _only_ make 62 million a year. That's not a large company by any stretch. Certainly not one that can afford to take customers for granted as you suggest.

Edit: And "it really wouldn't cost you anything" is a bit of an idiom for "won't cost a significant amount",not zero. that may have confused you.

[Frostclaw]

I think GW wants to wait til they have a goodly-sized batch of issues before releasing a FAQ. Doing it in drips and drabs is not efficient. However, someone did mention their blog, which I think would be a great place for them to acknowledge that they know there's an issue, state a temporary solution/ruling until the FAQ is released, and everyone gets satisfied. But putting out a FAQ on three issues is just about as silly as putting out three FAQs and still not addressing a given codex's most ambiguous issue....

What? Why is everybody looking at me like that? ;)

[Wolfshade]

Point of Information:
The complaint or comment here wasn't that it has taken GW two weeks to release a new FAQ for the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it is that the FAQ for the previous codex was available on the GW Website for two weeks after the new codex came out..

[DF3CT]

They release shoddy products where the creators of the army lists etc seem to skip a proof reading stage, forgetting who they are marketing thus product too.

People go over these books with a fine toothed comb and they need to be VERY detailed in what the rules mean.

You'd think GW was a newb company in how they explain things most of the time.

[DF3CT]

I like that they don't push things out too frequently. Back in the day, every White Dwarf issue had a 1-2 page Chapter Approved section with Errata, clarifications, and FAQs. It was a complete nightmare for all the players to keep current on, and since it was written by different studio members it could be wildly inconsistent. I would appreciate a standard release schedule though. If they released FAQ updates, for example, every 6 months on a specific date, then the nets would at least know when to expect changes.

Having said that, I don't think the Studio is letting anyone hang, I just think they are isolated from the community. They probably finished with the Chaos Codex months ago and are currently playtesting the next 2 or 3, using the Chaos Codex RAI, because they are a close-knit group that would come up with a consensus on what is in there, and probably don't have WAAC or rules lawyers in their group.

They listened to peoples dislike of haphazard entries like chapter approved and simply replaced them adverts!!! HA!

[magickbk]

It just struck me that the FAQ might be needed if an official event or tournament was already scheduled, and the new Chaos Codex was not considered valid for it yet...

[Mr Mystery]

They release shoddy products where the creators of the army lists etc seem to skip a proof reading stage, forgetting who they are marketing thus product too.

People go over these books with a fine toothed comb and they need to be VERY detailed in what the rules mean.

You'd think GW was a newb company in how they explain things most of the time.

Terribly sorry to interrupt your whinge, but do take into consideration the concept of man hours.

During production, these are finite. Other projects are on the go.

As soon as the book is released, people start going over it. Assuming it takes 2 hours to read and digest, cover to cover, and I would you start to see the discrepancies. Ltd Ed Codex was 1,000 copies strong. That alone allows for 2,000 hours of proof reading. Add in standard copies, and it just keeps going up.

Moral of the story? No amount of proof reading, not matter how meticulous will ever trump contact with the customer.

But please, continue your whine by all means.

[The Shadow King]

Terribly sorry to interrupt your whinge, but do take into consideration the concept of man hours.

During production, these are finite. Other projects are on the go.

As soon as the book is released, people start going over it. Assuming it takes 2 hours to read and digest, cover to cover, and I would you start to see the discrepancies. Ltd Ed Codex was 1,000 copies strong. That alone allows for 2,000 hours of proof reading. Add in standard copies, and it just keeps going up.

Moral of the story? No amount of proof reading, not matter how meticulous will ever trump contact with the customer.

But please, continue your whine by all means.

Very true. We've proofed publications with 4 different people sometimes and yet mistakes still slip through. Read any book or newspaper and you'll find spelling errors, bad grammar and facts that are simply nothing of the kind.

That said several of the 'problems' of the Chaos codex have been identified now and an interim FAQ if nothing else should have been up in a few days after it came out. They could always have done a more comprehensive one later, that's what version numbers on the FAQs are for.

[Wolfshade]

Potentially, but then you would get the people who would complain about well it has included X but not Y.

[DrLove42]

Very true. We've proofed publications with 4 different people sometimes and yet mistakes still slip through. Read any book or newspaper and you'll find spelling errors, bad grammar and facts that are simply nothing of the kind.


I've jsut published a paper in a scientific journal. 18 proofreads here at the uni, 2 from external supervisors and 2 from the publishing company.

And no one noticed the spelling mistake on page 3. *sigh*

[Wolfshade]

There is nothing harder than proof reading your own work.
As part of my job I write a 100 page report each month and there are always little things that sneak in :mad:

[magickbk]

It is about getting the right people to proof read, though. Some people are geniuses but miss the little errors, and others who are not as skilled pick them all up. My wife had me proof most of her papers for her Masters (in English) and I caught all the little errors.

[Kyban]

There is a difference between typos and rules discrepancies though. Sometimes it seems like they don't think about how it will interact with the rest of the game and just at my LGS we find a dozen problems with the rules of each new codex which, as often as not, are not fixed in the FAQs. I can understand they want to keep it hobby oriented but the clarity of the rules don't have to suffer and the FAQs at least could be a little more encompassing for the sake of tournament play. Being updated more often wouldn't hurt either.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet those play testers have access to writer of rules. And due to play testing in lots of games, and lots of versions it's quite easy to get used to both the wording and intention of the rule, without the wording being as clear as you think.

[Kyban]

Yet those play testers have access to writer of rules. And due to play testing in lots of games, and lots of versions it's quite easy to get used to both the wording and intention of the rule, without the wording being as clear as you think.

The problem is that everyone interprets the rules differently when they're not as clear as they could be.

[Wolfshade]

The trouble is that when you become familiar at testing someone's rules you play them as the writer intends and so you avoid this issues because they don't come up, this isn't a fault with the process it is just what happens, Jervis wrote about it in a standard bearer months/years ago

[pgarfunkle]

At games day I spoke to one of the two chaps at games workshop who now prepare the faqs.

He said that they collect the rules questions that they have received every so often and work through them selecting questions to answer, usually the most common or those rules situations which are not clear.

They then sit down with the rules and play through the scenarios to work out their thoughts on the question. Following that they will seek out the opinion of the design studio and where possible the author of the rules to get their thoughts.

Once they've got an answer it goes into an faq update which will be published every few months.

It sounded like they were planning to put out updates reasonably regularly and in batches.

I noticed there is now an email address on the faq page so if you want answers send them an email.

[Mr Mystery]

Nonsense! Clearly anonymous interweb whining is the superior way to get things done!