Challenges loophole

[DarkLink]

3++ had an article (http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/10/mistake-mondays-back-and-badder-than-ever-bad-meaning-bad-not-bad-meaning-good/) on rules people tend to play incorrectly, and pointed out the following about Challenges:


8. Somewhat Challenging
Models can only make or accept challenges if they are engaged in a fight, I.E. in base contact with an enemy model or within 2″ of a friendly model that is in base contact. If you are not in range at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase, you are not eligible to participate in a challenge this turn (though you might be later, assuming there are any enemies left to challenge at that point.)

There's a little loophole that I found related to this in the Challenge rules that can have important consequences, however.


To issue a Challenge, you and your opponent must have a Character, and the issuee must be engaged and able to strike. But what happens if all of your opponent's Characters are unengaged? They cannot accept challenges, because they are not within 2" of a model in base contact, but a Challenge has been issued. So, must the unengaged Character Refuse the Challenge? Or is the Challenge simply ignored, because there are no eligible Characters to Accept the Challenge?


If you can do this to force your opponent to Refuse a Challenge, then this is a nice, albeit cheap, tactic to avoid nasty characters for a round of combat. Arrange your charge so that you only hit the unit far away from their Character(s), then issue the Challenge, and then force your opponent to Refuse at no cost to you. You get your full attacks, but your opponent's nastiest Character is unable to strike even if he could Pile In to assault range.





Now, that tactic can be questioned, but here's something you can unquestionably do. If your target has multiple Characters, say a Sergeant and a Captain, you can arrange the charge so that only one is engaged. Then, when you issue the Challenge, your opponent may only respond with the eligible Character that you picked. Clever positioning on the charge means you can eliminate whichever character is most advantageous to you, while letting your squad pound on the other Character.

[inquisitorsog]

I think you missed the bit under the "Refuse" that says "those that could have accepted".

You can set up your charge to force the issue on keeping some of the characters out of the fight and if the sole eligible character refuses, he gets the penalty, not any other one. If none is eligible, then no refuse penalty is suffered.

Am I missing something in your question/scenario?

[Nabterayl]

Agreed. If you couldn't have accepted, you can't be nominated for the victim of refusal - so while the opponent is obliged to refuse your challenge, doing so has no consequences. What you describe in your last paragraph certainly works, though.

[DarkLink]

Ok, that's what I was looking for. I do like finding clever little tactical tricks like this, though.

[Eberk]

What you describe in your last paragraph certainly works, though.
While keeping in mind that you must get as much models in base to base contact as possible during a charge. So it won't work every time.
But when it works... so much the sweeter ;)

[Ulthwé Guardian]

Take a look at this case guys:

Situation

The last game I played a 2 vs 2 player match, developed a situation of a Chaos Lord (5th edition rules), a Blood Angel Assault squad with two attached independent characters (a Captain and a Sanguinary Priest).

The Chaos player issued a challenge, the Captain accepted. About three rounds of close combat later with both sides passing every saving throw the Blood Angel player didn't want his Assault Marines and S.Priest to be tar pitted.

The Problem
The Blood Angel player wanted to make his S.Priest leave the combat as he was doing very little. In his opinion the S.Priest was unengaged and could therefore leave the combat following the rules he would use for leaving a squad.

In the end we convinced him otherwise that you couldn't do that. But we didn't have much proof to back it up.

Any advice people could give?

[inquisitorsog]

Take a look at this case guys:

Situation

The last game I played a 2 vs 2 player match, developed a situation of a Chaos Lord (5th edition rules), a Blood Angel Assault squad with two attached independent characters (a Captain and a Sanguinary Priest).

The Chaos player issued a challenge, the Captain accepted. About three rounds of close combat later with both sides passing every saving throw the Blood Angel player didn't want his Assault Marines and S.Priest to be tar pitted.

The Problem
The Blood Angel player wanted to make his S.Priest leave the combat as he was doing very little. In his opinion the S.Priest was unengaged and could therefore leave the combat following the rules he would use for leaving a squad.

In the end we convinced him otherwise that you couldn't do that. But we didn't have much proof to back it up.

Any advice people could give?
p39 clearly states an IC cannot leave or join a unit locked in combat. I don't see why the BA player felt it wasn't.

[Nabterayl]

The BA player may have been operating under a common 5th edition misconception, that ICs were their own unit in close combat (not actually true; ICs were their own unit in close combat for purposes of allocating attacks only). If so, he may have reasoned that the Sanguinary Priest was not in base contact with an enemy, an IC, in close combat, and thus no longer engaged. If that was his line of reasoning, then you could point out to him that ICs in 6e have no special "separate unit" status in 6e CC (not that what he was trying to do would have been legal in 5e anyway).

[DarkLink]

While keeping in mind that you must get as much models in base to base contact as possible during a charge. So it won't work every time.
But when it works... so much the sweeter ;)

If you know what you're doing, it's not hard to pull your assault. You only need one model close enough to reach base contact, everyone else can sit back as far as you can string guys out. Random charge takes the tactics out of it, one of the many reasons I dislike that stupid rule, but you can still do it if you're careful.

You can use the same principle to avoid assaulting through terrain sometimes, as well.

[magickbk]

Wouldn't this be extremely difficult in the 6th Edition rules, being that unengaged models pile in at their initiative step? If only a few models were in base contact, you'd still have to keep your own models over 6" away from the closest unengaged models to prevent yourself from being drawn into combat, barring some terrain trickery, obviously, and that still might draw in other characters, depending on the Initiative values involved in the units.

[Eberk]

Wouldn't this be extremely difficult in the 6th Edition rules
It will probably be easier when a 5-man squad attacks a 30 strong horde with 2 characters then when a 30 strong horde attack a 5-man squad with 2 characters :D
It depends on a lot of things (not in the least your charge range) but it can happen. Just like Gretchin beating Space Marines in close combat, I'm sure it can happen.

[DarkLink]

Wouldn't this be extremely difficult in the 6th Edition rules, being that unengaged models pile in at their initiative step?

Doesn't matter. You declare all challenges before any Pile In moves are made.

You assault such that you only have one or two models actually in base contact, and the rest of the squad just out. The particular enemy character is not engaged and thus can't take the challenge. You get the challenge you want, and then everyone piles in afterwards.