A change of nationality?

[Mr Mystery]

Good evening!

So, the referendum is going ahead. Scotland may be about to vote itself away from the UK.

Not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, it'll be nice to not have pudgy, sticky Tory fingers in my families honey. But I'm not entirely sure she can go it alone.

However, as a could-be ex-pat (born in Edinburgh, lived in England since 1992) I could be up for a change in tax rate. Certainly my dual nationality friend is Norwegian for tax reasons, and as such benefits from a much lower tax rate. If Holyrood come through, I could do a similar thing. And living in England, whether Scotland thrives or not is less of an issue for me!

Plus, it would literally make me an international man of mystery!

[Wildeybeast]

As an Englishman I honestly couldn't care less, so long as they get the whole thing over and done with. If the Scots want independence, good luck to them, lets see how they do without our help (answer - not as well which is why I'm almost certain it will get voted down). If they stay, it shuts up whiners like Salmond once and for all. Either way, get on with and stop boring the rest of the UK who couldn't care less.

[Mr Mystery]

Help? English cities have a higher per-capita tax spend than Scotland. And Scotland's always looks bad, because Westminster never includes the oil revenues.

Can't believe everything (dare I say anything?) you get from the media....

[Wildeybeast]

But how much of your public spending do you generate for yourselves and how much is funded by Westminster? The whole thing is just a piece of poorly thought out nationalist sentiment taken way to far. No consideration at all has been given to what happens to your army, currency, membership of the EU, membership of NATO, NHS, passports, border controls, what happens to Scots living in the rest of the UK, etc. etc. The politician in me says this was a play by Salmond for 'devo max' which he's lost because that's not a question any more. He now has to push on with the independence vote and hope he wins against the odds, because his political career is over if he doesn't.

[Mr Mystery]

I disagree. Right now, Scotland cannot set her own taxes. Westminster continues to hold the purse strings. And trust me, Salmond had thought this through a lot further than people give him credit for. Oil revenue can make Scotland ridiculously rich for her size. Channel that (whilst it lasts) into urban regeneration and you have a good jumping off point.

An often overlooked fact about Scotland is how the populace is distributed. You have the main population belt between Glasgow and Edinburgh, and then Aberdeen and Dundee. That's about it. Scotland is also an increasingly popular film set. Offer movie making incentives. Potentially opt out of the EU, and fishing industry grows stronger. Scotland also has a lot of exports, from Whisky to textiles.

She can go it alone, regardless of what the English right wing media might claim. I'm personally just not sure it's a great idea. But like I said, as a possible ex-pat to be, I could be about to end up with a favourable tax situation.... As work provides free Bupa, and an impressive Pension, much of the nitty gritty won't affect me!

[Up The Walls!]

I imagine the simplest way to deal with the whole 'what is and isn't Scotland a member of' question is to just do the inverse of what happened when Germany reunified in 1990; namely 'what the UK's a member of, Scotland's a member of until such time as it's sorted out'.

The sad part is, a load of people will be voting yes for no reason other than not wanting a Great Britain football team.

[Denzark]

Good evening!

So, the referendum is going ahead. Scotland may be about to vote itself away from the UK.

Not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, it'll be nice to not have our pudgy, sticky fingers in my English neighbour's honey. But I'm not entirely sure she can go it alone as even the least drunk of us realises that whiskey, tartan short bread, and a finite amount of natural gas owned by Royal Dutch Shell will only go so far.

However, as a could-be ex-pat (born in Edinburgh, lived in England since 1992) I could be up for a change in tax rate. Certainly my dual nationality friend is Norwegian for tax reasons, and as such benefits from a much lower tax rate. If Holyrood come through, I could do a similar thing. And living in England, whether Scotland thrives or not is less of an issue for me!

Plus, it would literally make me an international man of mystery!

There, fixed for you Ploppy McPlop.

[Mr Mystery]

I imagine the simplest way to deal with the whole 'what is and isn't Scotland a member of' question is to just do the inverse of what happened when Germany reunified in 1990; namely 'what the UK's a member of, Scotland's a member of until such time as it's sorted out'.

The sad part is, a load of people will be voting yes for no reason other than not wanting a Great Britain football team.

16 and 17 year olds will be voting too. Which to me makes sense. In my experience, people aren't massively more savvy when they hit 18 than those ages. Plus, when you can go and fight for your country, it's kind of nice to have a say in just who you are fighting for...

[Deadlift]

Scotland's welfare and benefits bill is double that of the revenue raised from North Sea gas and oil. Oh and Bucky is made down here in Devon, so your going to have to import your favourite tonic wine too :)

[Denzark]

16 and 17 year olds will be voting too. Which to me makes sense. In my experience, people aren't massively more savvy when they hit 18 than those ages. Plus, when you can go and fight for your country, it's kind of nice to have a say in just who you are fighting for...



We only let the 'disaffected yoot' out to fight after 18. The boy soldiers stay at home until then...

[Psychosplodge]

Somebody told me Salmond is under the belief that the sea border would run east-west, when apparently international convention dictates it carries straight on in the direction the land border is at the coast, and apparently that's on a north-east heading... so essentially a lot more of the oil would be in English waters.

Currencywise all new members to the EU have to pledge to adopt the euro, and that's assuming one it survives, and two scotland qualifies for eu entry, (apparently he's very pro eu, so much for independence then?)

It's a joke letting 16/17 year olds vote, I remember what most of my "peers" were like then and it pains me they let them vote now. And you can't fight for your country below 18 because the UK is a signatory on a UN treaty regarding child soldiers, you can only join the forces, not be deployed.


I want to see how long the free prescriptions last, on the other hand it would allow English students the same rights as EU students when attending scottish universities, as opposed to the financial discrimination they receive now.

[Mr Mystery]

Scotland's welfare and benefits bill is double that of the revenue raised from North Sea gas and oil. Oh and Bucky is made down here in Devon, so your going to have to import your favourite tonic wine too :)

Source on that? Not calling you out, just haven't heard that before!

Though I do wonder what the tax plans would be. Would I need a work visa? Having not lived in Scotland for 21 years, would I become English by default?

There's a lot of Scots working in England. If we're all offered a de facto tax break, that could be serious income, without having to spend owt on us...

[Denzark]

I think I may have quoted this on here before but hey...

There is a Radio 4 programme which deals in numbers, facts and statistics. I can't remember what it is called - but the premise is that when a politician or some such makes a fatuous statement involving figures of some sort, they get professors etc to challenge, research and prove or dispprove.

The one I listened to on Scotland last year dealt with the claim that Scottish gas puts more into the economy than Scotland takes out. The facts seemed to be that records, which went back 27 years, showed that on only 9 of 27 years did Scottish gas put more into the wider UK economy than Scotland took out. Overall, the deficit in/out was something like £9 billion. Not much in the grand scheme of things but split 27 years and then split per head of population it adds up...

[Mr Mystery]

Just as an aside, I'm not all convinced a 'no' vote would scupper Salmond's career. I mean, the dude wants independence, and has promised a vote. Win or lose, he's just delivered his promise. Which is more than Call Me Dave has managed to date.

It's a bummer that 'Devo max' isn't about to happen, but that can hardly be blamed on Salmond. He fought and argue for it, but ultimately had neither the power not position to shift a disagreeing Westminster. Politically, I'd say he's just played a blinder. No more bluster. No more posing. To quote John Major, it's time for Scotland to put up, or shut up. And being a democracy, that's exactly how things should be.

[Deadlift]

Source on that? Not calling you out, just haven't heard that before!

Though I do wonder what the tax plans would be. Would I need a work visa? Having not lived in Scotland for 21 years, would I become English by default?

There's a lot of Scots working in England. If we're all offered a de facto tax break, that could be serious income, without having to spend owt on us...

Official figures show that pension and welfare spend in Scotland is currently just over £15 billion, £8.5 billion more than the amount raised from North Sea oil and gas.

Ian Duncan Smith is quoted as saying it, must be true ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9551538/Iain-Duncan-Smith-Independent-Scotland-could-not-afford-welfare-bill.html

[Psychosplodge]

Independence for Yorkshire, we've got as many people, and why not greater London too while we're at it...

The surest way to guarantee independence would be to invite the other 55 million members of the Union to vote...

[Mr Mystery]

Still, not at all bad for a single revenue source... At least whilst it lasts....

[Sean_OBrien]

Seems to be a bit en vogue over there in recent times...

http://rt.com/news/belgium-elections-separatist-antwerp-430/

Regarding the value of the resources, keep in mind that they could well sell it for a higher price to their neighbors to the South to make up the difference. Likely a fair number of other resources which could be capitalized on as well in the energy sectors. Not familiar enough with the existing infrastructure, however I would assume based on time spent in Scotland that they should be able to capitalize on things like Wind and Hydro electric power and sell that down south as well.

[Deadlift]

I don't know, it's quite trendy all over at the moment. Quebec as an example :)
Seriously though I don't think the Scots will even get to keep the oil and gas for themselves if independence comes off. I am sure the rest of the UK will find a way to keep that resource for itself. Anyway we have all that oil off the Falklands, Argentina must love that :)

[White Tiger88]

Anyway we have all that oil off the Falklands, Argentina must love that :)

Ya thats called the Falklands war......... :P

[Psychosplodge]

I don't know, it's quite trendy all over at the moment. Quebec as an example :)
Seriously though I don't think the Scots will even get to keep the oil and gas for themselves if independence comes off. I am sure the rest of the UK will find a way to keep that resource for itself. Anyway we have all that oil off the Falklands, Argentina must love that :)
Well if we're simply basing it on distance, obviously half of western Europe is ours.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I just hope when our union comes apart it can be done in as peaceful a manner as your agreement outlines.

[Psychosplodge]

I just hope when our union comes apart it can be done in as peaceful a manner as your agreement outlines.

Like last time?

[Wolfshade]

The Belgium issue is amusing my friend lives and works their and he describes the nation as a nation of two. I am using the words he used to describe them.
There are the Flemmish who are certainly right wing, who have money and are hard working and industrious, they can speak perfect French but will only talk to you in it if you have been identified as a "non-French" Belgium.
Then there are the French speaking Belgiums, these are as strong left wing as the Flemish are right, as a consequence of their striking action it is now a legal requirement to give everyone a pay rise annually.
Also don't forget that Belgium also holds the world record for the longest time for a country to be without any form of government

[eldargal]

It would be an absolute catastrophe for Scotland and rather sad from the perspective of someone who is proud to be British.

[Psychosplodge]

What would they do about the Union flag though, would they just delete the blue and have the United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland?

[Wolfshade]

I think so, or invade another country to get a new background

[Psychosplodge]

Who else has got a a blue diagonal cross so we don't have to do any re-branding?

[Wolfshade]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Tenerife

Tenerfie, plus we have somewhere nice to get

[Psychosplodge]

Sounds like a plan, plus it'll save all the tourists changing their money to that silly euro...

[Wolfshade]

Well give it a couple of months and we wo'n't have to worry about the euro...

[Psychosplodge]

Well there is that. How exactly do you launch 15 new currencies at once?

[Wolfshade]

Don't need that many, just 1, the Mark

[Psychosplodge]

Surely Deutschland can't have bought all of europe...

[Wolfshade]

Maybe not, certainly greece, and chucks of italy and spain

[Psychosplodge]

It's certainly a method of creating a "united europe"

[Wolfshade]

I think it should be done based on a cricket competition...

[Psychosplodge]

Sounds reasonable.

[Mr Mystery]

I think it should be done based on a cricket competition...
Base it on a game Englad often choke at?

You sure?

[Psychosplodge]

Yeah, as there's only us and the Dutch that play it isn't there?

[Wolfshade]

I think so, I know we beat France last time it was at the Olympics in grand style

[Wildeybeast]

Somebody told me Salmond is under the belief that the sea border would run east-west, when apparently international convention dictates it carries straight on in the direction the land border is at the coast, and apparently that's on a north-east heading... so essentially a lot more of the oil would be in English waters.

Currencywise all new members to the EU have to pledge to adopt the euro, and that's assuming one it survives, and two scotland qualifies for eu entry, (apparently he's very pro eu, so much for independence then?)

It's a joke letting 16/17 year olds vote, I remember what most of my "peers" were like then and it pains me they let them vote now. And you can't fight for your country below 18 because the UK is a signatory on a UN treaty regarding child soldiers, you can only join the forces, not be deployed.


I want to see how long the free prescriptions last, on the other hand it would allow English students the same rights as EU students when attending scottish universities, as opposed to the financial discrimination they receive now.

Given that a significant number of 16 year olds I know can't even manage to bring a pen, I doubt their capacity to make an informed and intelligent decision on this issue. If a pen wasn't provided for them at the polling both, they wouldn't even be able to vote. Salmond only wanted them in because he knows they will be easier to sway with rhetoric, which is what this is based on. I can't see any significant benefits that Scotland would gain from going independent.


Source on that? Not calling you out, just haven't heard that before!

Though I do wonder what the tax plans would be. Would I need a work visa? Having not lived in Scotland for 21 years, would I become English by default?

There's a lot of Scots working in England. If we're all offered a de facto tax break, that could be serious income, without having to spend owt on us...

Would you even get to vote? How do they work it out given we are all British? Are you going to have to prove your place of birth? Is it based on residence? If so what about English/Welsh/ Northern Irish people living in Scotland? Surely they get a say in what happens to the country they live in.

[Mr Mystery]

Even if I could (And pretty sure I can't) I wouldn't. I don't live there, so it wouldn't be fair.

[Wildeybeast]

But you are Scottish. And surely that is what this is all about, Scottish people expressing their desire for independence (or lack thereof)? If not, that makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[Psychosplodge]

Given that a significant number of 16 year olds I know can't even manage to bring a pen, I doubt their capacity to make an informed and intelligent decision on this issue. If a pen wasn't provided for them at the polling both, they wouldn't even be able to vote. Salmond only wanted them in because he knows they will be easier to sway with rhetoric, which is what this is based on. I can't see any significant benefits that Scotland would gain from going independent.


Yeah that's pretty much my reading of it.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Like last time?

Exactly. You read my mind. That is what I'm afraid of...