PC Watercooling, how does it work?

[Psychosplodge]

Does anyone know anything about the building, care and feeding of a watercooled pc?

I've been watching some youtube videos, and they all seem to assume a level of knowledge when it comes to waterbuilding that I'm missing.
The PC building parts easy enough, but does anyone know of a helpful place to find a beginners watercooling guide?
(google so far been less than useless)

[DarkLink]

You take a hot PC, and pour water on it, and it's not hot anymore. Simple.

(I don't actually know anything)

[Psychosplodge]

Doh, why'd I not think of that?

[Denzark]

Everyone knows that PCs run on hamsters who power the machine through the electricity captured by the flux capacitor attached to their wheels. Obviously their companions the dormice, are the networkers who hold the network cable, with a tiny cup, to their ears and whisper and rcieve the messages. A nearly blind but awesome artist mole then draws the pictures on the screen to form whatever site you have typed in (yes admit it you dirty tuppence toucher it is always BoLS or porn).

Water cooling is installing a little swimming pool that they can plop into for a couple of lengths, to increase productivity in terms of speed and response time. Alternately you can try injecting them with some form of uppers but their little hearts fail quickly and you need to replace them more often, water cooling is more humane.

[Psychosplodge]

(yes admit it you dirty tuppence toucher it is always BoLS or porn).


Well, and tumblr(more porn) and youtube...

And I was aiming to retire the rodent based hardware in favour of 21st century wetware...

[Sean_OBrien]

Does anyone know anything about the building, care and feeding of a watercooled pc?

I've been watching some youtube videos, and they all seem to assume a level of knowledge when it comes to waterbuilding that I'm missing.
The PC building parts easy enough, but does anyone know of a helpful place to find a beginners watercooling guide?
(google so far been less than useless)

Now it seems most watercooling is done with off the shelf components, back when I was your age and we were overclocking P2 chips - we had to build things from scratch (cutting and brazing brass water blocks and snagging oil coolers from the transmissions of RVs). Not really too much different from building a regular PC now though, with the exception of choosing a case which has the needed space for the hoses and radiator (and they even make cases for that).

Tom's Hardware, Maximum PC and sites like those have pretty good articles on the matter - and if you go to hardware retail sites like Newegg, you can search for the specific components and they have information on how to install them there.

Not sure what you are looking to fill the blank in on in particular - but those should cover you well enough.

[Psychosplodge]

Oh yeah the pc building side isn't phasing me at all, I've probaly built a dozen or more pc's. just don't really know where to start with plumbing lol. I'll check them out later, cheers.

More importantly were PII's actually worth overclocking? :D

[Wolfshade]

I remember wishing I had a PII...

Of course 'splogy you can actually get liquid metal cooling which is even more efficient :)

[Psychosplodge]

I remember wishing I had a PII...

Of course 'splogy you can actually get liquid metal cooling which is even more efficient :)

I had one, but not till the PIII was out lol

Yes, but on a home pc? would you be able to use it with the same pumps and stuff or do you think something more heavy duty would be required?

[Mr Mystery]

PC Watercooling?

I think you mean H2O of reduced temperature. That's properly PC.

[Wolfshade]

I imagine normal pumps would work ok, it will only be a little more viscous.

Though water cooling is still noisy, if you are going for a media centre then passive cooling is the way to go, clean air flow, lots of radiator grills!

[Psychosplodge]

No. I'm planning a gaming rig hopefully, but I made the mistake of looking on a couple of forums and it's all so pretty... If I us it for media I'll get a wireless hdmi plugin and transmit from another room/or down the LAN as the tv is networked.

[Wolfshade]

Cool.

The easiest way to do it is with the kits now, everything then is the same diameter and you can all the components even RAM cooling

[Psychosplodge]

I've just looked, you need electromagnetic pumps to propel a liquid metal coolent, which might play havac with the pc....

I'd probably limit it to a cpu loop and a gpu loop. One with purple liquid, one with green. Unless I get a red and black mother board then it's all gonna be blood red, unless I just opt for a massive Noctua cpu cooler...
Suppose I could still have a liquid cooled graphics card if I fancied...

[Sean_OBrien]

I imagine normal pumps would work ok, it will only be a little more viscous.

Though water cooling is still noisy, if you are going for a media centre then passive cooling is the way to go, clean air flow, lots of radiator grills!

Depends...

Being a bunch of old nerds with new money, we end up messing around a good bit. One of my friends still uses water cooling in his main PC which is nearly entirely silent. In order to accomplish the task, the water pump is located in a 55 gallon aquarium (submerged). The heat from the PC augments the aquarium heaters and it is a large enough heat sink that it never hits the saturation level.

Mineral oil submersion is also perfectly quiet as well - and although passive...it allows extreme levels of overclocking. Need to choose your particular components a little more carefully...but other than that, it is largely a simple task.


More importantly were PII's actually worth overclocking?

At the time, heck yes. With an Abit MoBo you could nearly double the clock speed of your CPU which is quite impressive. Certain versions of the P2 chipset (especially the Celeron series) were pretty well sold specifically to have people overclock them. Up until Intel locked the onboard multiplier down on them - the only thing which would slow the Celeron down was the heat...which is where water cooling and a lot of the tricks you see now came about - at least in consumer electronics.


just don't really know where to start with plumbing lol. I'll check them out later, cheers.

Still not quite sure what you are looking for then. Water cooling is pretty simple, water block to be attached in place of the heat sink on the component you want to cool (CPU, GPU, bus or Memory). Hose from water block to the radiator equivalent (sometimes an actual radiator...sometimes something different like a set of coiled hoses in a refrigerator or an aquarium). Hose from radiator back to the water block. Pump placed at a convenient location in the loop.

Now, that is the basics of it - granted the specifics of thermodynamics are a bit more involved. In order to maximize the efficiency you need to know how much heat is being generated, how much heat can be picked up from the chip through the water block, how much heat the coolant can hold and how fast it is transferred from the water block to the liquid, how fast heat is shed from the radiator.

Depending on all of those variables, you can determine the ideal size of hoses and flow rate for the pump in order to get the most cooling out of the system. If you choose a pump that is too large and moves fluid too fast, you will end up not giving the liquid enough time to absorb heat from the water block off the chip. If you choose a pump that is too small, it won't move the hot liquid away from the chip fast enough to be worthwhile.

Did a quick google-fu and there was a recent article on Maximum PC which covers it as well as gives rough concepts regarding the ideas:

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/how-tos/build_it_three_water-cooling_techniques_detailed_and_constructed?page=0 ,0

They say they compare an off the shelf system with a custom one, but for an old school bodger like me...it looks a lot like 2 off the shelf systems, just one comes in one box while the other comes in more than one box. However, it does give you a shopping list of the bits - tells you how they go together - explains why choices were made - and finally shows the numbers which are the only thing that really matter.

[Psychosplodge]

Still not quite sure what you are looking for then
Neither am I really, it's got my attention and it's something I'm considering, but If I buy better stock parts I can just use Air cooling and be lazy lol so its all up in the air really...

Still not quite sure what you are looking for then. Water cooling is pretty simple, water block to be attached in place of the heat sink on the component you want to cool (CPU, GPU, bus or Memory). Hose from water block to the radiator equivalent (sometimes an actual radiator...sometimes something different like a set of coiled hoses in a refrigerator or an aquarium). Hose from radiator back to the water block. Pump placed at a convenient location in the loop.

:D
That paragraph has told me more than about three hours of youtube video and half a dozen websites...

[Sean_OBrien]

Neither am I really, it's got my attention and it's something I'm considering, but If I buy better stock parts I can just use Air cooling and be lazy lol so its all up in the air really...

Thats what I end up doing now. Gotten to that point where if I want a faster computer - I just buy faster components. The last PC I built ended up costing me just shy of $10K...though it is full up with bells and whistles like a terabytes worth of solid state drives and a pair of 30 inch flat panels being pushed by one GTX690 each and a newer Xeon processor. Funny bit on that is that the Xeon chip has more on board cache than the old P2 system which I was overclocking 15 or so years ago. Thought about getting two at the time - but couldn't really justify spending another $2500 for more power than I would ever need and it would create additional cooling issues that I didn't want to be bothered with. As it is though, everything is cooled through normal processes (heat sinks and a half dozen or so fans) and when I ran the burn in cycle on the system the 3DMark Extreme tests were over 10K. It is far from quiet, but it isn't too bad.

[Psychosplodge]

:eek:

That sounds awesome...

[Kyban]

Thats what I end up doing now. Gotten to that point where if I want a faster computer - I just buy faster components. The last PC I built ended up costing me just shy of $10K...though it is full up with bells and whistles like a terabytes worth of solid state drives and a pair of 30 inch flat panels being pushed by one GTX690 each and a newer Xeon processor. Funny bit on that is that the Xeon chip has more on board cache than the old P2 system which I was overclocking 15 or so years ago. Thought about getting two at the time - but couldn't really justify spending another $2500 for more power than I would ever need and it would create additional cooling issues that I didn't want to be bothered with. As it is though, everything is cooled through normal processes (heat sinks and a half dozen or so fans) and when I ran the burn in cycle on the system the 3DMark Extreme tests were over 10K. It is far from quiet, but it isn't too bad.
My brother has a similar system he just made but he's using three GTX680 classifieds and overclocking it, so he's adding water cooling to keep the temp down without as much noise. I'll ask him what he's looking at for cooling systems. Before he moved to 3 graphics cards he had a GTX690 which I got for free so I spent a little to upgrade mine and it runs fantastic without overclocking or the need for water cooling, but I'm not quite as crazy as my brother. :D

[Psychosplodge]

I've just compared 690 prices in the UK with 690 prices in the US, and we effectively pay almost 50%+ more as we pay the dollar price (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_6/181-7105516-1547953?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gtx+690&sprefix=gtx+69%2Caps%2C657) more or less in pounds (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/productlist.php?groupid=701&catid=1914&subid=1966) ¬_¬

[Sean_OBrien]

Keep in mind - a good chunk of that is the 20% VAT which you guys throw on everything. There might be additional taxes on top of that as well - though I am not familiar with the different groups of things which get taxed and how much additional tax is added to them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Asus-GeForce-Graphics-Express-Surround/dp/B007ZO7T9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350470928&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/GeForce-2xDVI-I-mDisplayPort-Graphics-GTX690-4GD5/dp/B0080JWLFU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1350470959&sr=8-4&keywords=gtx+690

With that in mind - you actually pay less than you probably should in comparison when you compare comparables.

[Psychosplodge]

Pretty much Everything apart from books, majority of food, and childrens and safety clothing attracts VAT.
Then Fuel, alcohol and tobacco are the major items with additional tax.

Looking at your example, allowing for minor currency fluctuation and assuming the amazon.com has no tax on they're nearly the same. I forget you don't generally show tax in the price (which makes zero sense to me but if thats how you do things...)

[Sean_OBrien]

Based on today's conversion rate your price before VAT in USD would be $997 - $59 less than it would cost in the US. That doesn't include sales tax yet which might add an additional 0-10% to the purchase cost.

Granted, with the VAT...you do end up paying more, but the rate is higher and specific to your region so you need to normalize that out of the picture first.

[Psychosplodge]

I got to $1002 lol as I said "nearly the same". So yes I withdraw my complaint. Displaying prices without tax still makes no sense to me...

[Sean_OBrien]

Displaying prices without tax still makes no sense to me...

I tend to prefer it - it reminds people of how much the government is taking.

A lot of people forget about all the hidden taxes which we pay in the US when they are included in the price of things. Stuff like gas has huge amounts of tax added to it - I think you guys pay nearly twice as much for your "petrol" as you would normally because of taxes. In the US it ends up being about 50 cents per gallon extra. Most people don't even consider it when it doesn't show up on your receipt.

[Psychosplodge]

and the rest, we pay £1.38 a litre I think at the moment, and for every £1 something like 80p is tax.
What makes you laugh is the VAT@20% is added on after the duty

[Wolfshade]

It breaks down like this:

Excise Duty - 59p
VAT - 21.7p
Oil Company - 44.3p
Retailer - 5p

That's for 130p a litre

[Sean_OBrien]

and the rest, we pay £1.38 a litre I think at the moment, and for every £1 something like 80p is tax.
What makes you laugh is the VAT@20% is added on after the duty

Pretty sure that would make me cry...then revolt...then probably move.

[Psychosplodge]

It breaks down like this:

Excise Duty - 59p
VAT - 21.7p
Oil Company - 44.3p
Retailer - 5p

That's for 130p a litre
My mistake, Last figures I saw had similar with oil company taking 22p and retailer 1p

I will make way for Wolfie's no doubt more researched figures.

[Sean_OBrien]

It breaks down like this:

Excise Duty - 59p
VAT - 21.7p
Oil Company - 44.3p
Retailer - 5p

That's for 130p a litre

And you guys say we pay less for gas in the US...

Unless my math is off - that ends up being about $3 per gallon before they tax your pants off. Last time I filled up it was $3.75 a gallon...$3.21 before taxes.

[Wolfshade]

Actually, it is worse the excise has increased since those figures were calculated...

[Wolfshade]

Quick calculation 142.9 p/l is 873.87 cents per US gallon

[Psychosplodge]

And you guys say we pay less for gas in the US...

Unless my math is off - that ends up being about $3 per gallon before they tax your pants off. Last time I filled up it was $3.75 a gallon...$3.21 before taxes.

It's not like we have an option not to pay the tax, and if the tax burden wasn't so high the retailer would no doubt be taking a larger cut, they're forced to keep low as the supermarkets sell it at zero or a loss occasionally.

So yeah really we are paying $10 a gallonish regardless of where the money is going, we're still paying it.

[Wolfshade]

At one point Tesco sold baked beans at 3p/tin which was at a loss, but the mark up they would make a profit if someone brought anything else.

I also love that in the recession the super markets are advertising and pushing their own brands and value ranges as a cheaper alternative, but have increased the prices of said ranges.

[Sean_OBrien]

Quick calculation 142.9 p/l is 873.87 cents per US gallon

Discounting taxes.


It's not like we have an option not to pay the tax, and if the tax burden wasn't so high the retailer would no doubt be taking a larger cut, they're forced to keep low as the supermarkets sell it at zero or a loss occasionally.

So yeah really we are paying $10 a gallonish regardless of where the money is going, we're still paying it.

Not too sure that the retailer would be jacking up their cut too much. In the US - the gas stations make about the same per gallon off the gas sales. There is a lot of competition which keeps costs down.

The option whether or not you pay the tax is really more fundamental than just you have to pay it. You do have to pay it in order to fund the various programs which elected politicians put in place. Different set of politicians in place could very easily drop the taxes - though they would need to reduce the benefits which are currently being paid for by the tax in question.

Ends up being a question of what you would rather have, more responsibility for individuals or a larger government...I tend to prefer the former.

[Psychosplodge]

That's an entire new kettle of fish, keep forgetting US use weird size gallons. Can't you do anything right? :D (right in this sense means how I want them done...)

[Sean_OBrien]

That's an entire new kettle of fish, keep forgetting US use weird size gallons. Can't you do anything right? :D (right in this sense means how I want them done...)

Hey, we are still using "Queen Anne's Gallon" - you guys are the ones who decided you wanted to change.

[Wolfshade]

The imperial gallon
The imperial (UK) gallon, defined as 4.54609 litres, is used in some Commonwealth countries and was originally based on the volume of 10 pounds of water at 62 °F (17 °C). (A US liquid gallon of water weighs about 8.34 pounds at the same temperature.) The imperial fluid ounce is defined as 1⁄160 of an imperial gallon.
The US liquid gallon
This gallon is defined as 231 cubic inches,[2] and is equal to exactly 3.785411784 litres or about 0.13368 cubic feet. This is the most common definition of a gallon in the United States. The US fluid ounce is defined as 1⁄128 of a US liquid gallon.

I think our deffinition is better, after all volumes of liquids change at temperature. That is why you should fill up your car just before dawn, that is when the fuel will be at its coolest and therefore densit and so you get more fuel per £

[Psychosplodge]

I think our deffinition is better, after all volumes of liquids change at temperature. That is why you should fill up your car just before dawn, that is when the fuel will be at its coolest and therefore densest and so you get more fuel per £
Used to always do that when I worked silly hours and had to be up at half five on a Saturday morning...

[Uncle Nutsy]

see,this is why I don't really bother reading through a thread past the first or second page; is because of the irrelevant tangent they always go on.

but to answer the OP's question in a very succinct way:

If you have no experience with watercooling, don't attempt it until you have the requisite experience. But if you really want to do it and want pointers and help, head to overclock.net.

[Psychosplodge]

see,this is why I don't really bother reading through a thread past the first or second page; is because of the irrelevant tangent they always go on.

but to answer the OP's question in a very succinct way:

If you have no experience with watercooling, don't attempt it until you have the requisite experience. But if you really want to do it and want pointers and help, head to overclock.net.
Lol the tangent's are fun, though we usually roll back round to the topic. I think looking at things as much as I want to do it, I may as well spend the money on better components instead...

[Wolfshade]

Tangets are not normal :)

But seriously, conversations move on, whne talking with someone and you ask how they are you do not only talk about how they are.

I think better components is the way forward, you could always build your rig in a beer fridge...

[Psychosplodge]

I think better components is the way forward, you could always build your rig in a beer fridge...

Hmmmm, interesting....

[Wolfshade]

In the dim distant past I remember reading about someone who overclocked and kept their rig in the freezer and used vodka as the heat sink, they did something silly with the over clocking and played something for a couple of minutes before it all boiled away

[Psychosplodge]

I've a youtube vid where they overclocked one of those AMD 8 core things to a silly amount and used a liquid nitrogen cooler. That was cool...

[Wolfshade]

:eek:
Metaphorically and Literally

Pity the new AMD stuff doesn't seem to overclock as nicely as previously. Intel really have the march on them now.

[Psychosplodge]

Not the original one I saw but it's similar in format...

http://youtu.be/pm2DtdPW1I4

[Wolfshade]

http://totl.net/Eunuch/Eunuch2.html

This is it possibly

[Psychosplodge]

That's amazing, though I wouldn't have stood conductive cans of lager across the motherboard, could have a go at recreating that lol.

Also Jay and silent Bob fridge magnets for extra cool - brilliant

[Wolfshade]

That also reminded me of this:

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

[Uncle Nutsy]

I think better components is the way forward, you could always build your rig in a beer fridge...

It's been tried by a large number of people. they keep running into the same problem. heat buildup inside the fridge and the compressor just can't deal with it. The only fridge that would be capable of dealing with a PC is.. a walk-in cooler that you see in the butchers'

[Sean_OBrien]

It's been tried by a large number of people. they keep running into the same problem. heat buildup inside the fridge and the compressor just can't deal with it. The only fridge that would be capable of dealing with a PC is.. a walk-in cooler that you see in the butchers'

Or use the fridge as part of a cooling loop. In an entirely closed system where the PC is inside the fridge, it takes a lot of cooling output in order to make up for the heat gains. However, by running your coolant through the refrigerator, the sum total of the heat does not remain contained in the refrigerator.

For example, if you are running a 500 watt power supply - the peak thermal output (which will not be reached) would be around 1700 BTUs. In order to achieve a 0 gain system your system will need to deal with 1700 BTUs of heat. Your average mini-fridge is rated at around 150 BTUs... The smaller compact refrigerators (the ones which are around shoulder height without separate freezer) are around 500 BTUs. A full sized refrigerator will generally be somewhere over 1500 BTUs (the one which we have is rated for 2670 BTUs). There are a lot of variables though when using a refrigerator for cooling. You can tweak the output of the unit by adjusting the coolant (both the coolant used and the quantity) as well as adjusting the pressure levels on the hi-lo valves. Though at that point, you will need to ask if you want to do it just to do it...or if you want a more elegant and simple solution. Some people are more interested in the process rather than the end result, and they enjoy "overclocking" a refrigerator in order to cool an overclocked computer.

For simple and elegant, you can hit up Aquarium Chillers. They are already plumbed for water circulation, and even small units are rated for over 1000 BTUs of cooling. One which is rated for 2400 BTUs (which will more than handle all the heat that could possibly be generated by a 500 watt power supply) can be picked up for around $750 or so.

[Psychosplodge]

The walk in fridges probably wouldn't deal with the heat close enough to the source to be effective.

[Uncle Nutsy]

Or use the fridge as part of a cooling loop. In an entirely closed system where the PC is inside the fridge, it takes a lot of cooling output in order to make up for the heat gains. However, by running your coolant through the refrigerator, the sum total of the heat does not remain contained in the refrigerator.

For example, if you are running a 500 watt power supply - the peak thermal output (which will not be reached) would be around 1700 BTUs. In order to achieve a 0 gain system your system will need to deal with 1700 BTUs of heat. Your average mini-fridge is rated at around 150 BTUs... The smaller compact refrigerators (the ones which are around shoulder height without separate freezer) are around 500 BTUs. A full sized refrigerator will generally be somewhere over 1500 BTUs (the one which we have is rated for 2670 BTUs). There are a lot of variables though when using a refrigerator for cooling. You can tweak the output of the unit by adjusting the coolant (both the coolant used and the quantity) as well as adjusting the pressure levels on the hi-lo valves. Though at that point, you will need to ask if you want to do it just to do it...or if you want a more elegant and simple solution. Some people are more interested in the process rather than the end result, and they enjoy "overclocking" a refrigerator in order to cool an overclocked computer..

again: this has already BEEN tried by HUNDREDS of people and the results were always the same. It did not work.

and yes the heat will remain in the refrigerator. It has all to do with the amount the compressor can comfortably handle. It does not matter if the PC is outside the fridge and plumbed into it.. the heat has to go somewhere. If all the heat from the water loop is dumped into the fridge, and the fridge can't handle it... it builds up and negates all the work you put into it. Look on overclocking websites. They have sections that deal with phasechange and experimental cooling. And it's not the power supply that you'll be cooling. It will be the CPU, the videocard, and the southbridge.

I've been involved in this sort of thing for years and what i'm telling you is the absolute truth.

[Sean_OBrien]

And it's not the power supply that you'll be cooling. It will be the CPU, the videocard, and the southbridge.

And barring some change to the laws of physics...the energy from the CPU, videocard and southbridge all come from the powersupply...which will determine the maximum amount of heat that could be generated.

[Uncle Nutsy]

so.. you think the energy from just the PSU determines the amount of heat energy released from the CPU/video/southbridge?

[Sean_OBrien]

so.. you think the energy from just the PSU determines the amount of heat energy released from the CPU/video/southbridge?

No I think energy input into a system will determine the energy output from the system. The fact of the matter is though, it will be much less than the energy input into the system as much of the power is actually used to do stuff. It is sent as a signal from the video card to the monitor, used to power hard drives and other devices, expended as lesser degrees of thermal energy on the PCBs themselves, it is used to actually perform the processes of the computer itself.

However, given a 500 watt power supply and the entirety of that power being converted into thermal energy...it will not exceed 1700 BTU. It is a law of physics.

[Uncle Nutsy]

rudimentary understanding, but a good start.


However, given a 500 watt power supply and the entirety of that power being converted into thermal energy...it will not exceed 1700 BTU. It is a law of physics.

the thing is though, most of that energy ISN'T converted into thermal energy. And again, refrigerators are not rated to run continuously. They just aren't designed to do that. Since you're not looking at the cooling experiments on established overclocking forums, I'll do it for you.

using a chiller http://www.overclock.net/t/1281848/refrigeration#post_17703767

using a fridge will kill the pump http://www.overclock.net/t/54614/refrigerated-rig#post_580609

half-duty phase change unit http://www.overclock.net/t/1120531/refrigerator-tecs#post_14984770

tried using a freezer to cool the PC http://www.overclock.net/t/358676/the-refrigerator-thread#post_4205964

this guy was a little crazier than some, using the coil itself http://www.overclock.net/t/15987/refrigerator-coil

can't cool anything that produces heat in a refrigerator. http://www.overclock.net/t/1086792/reservoir-in-a-refrigerator#post_14504724

can't handle the constant heat being added http://www.overclock.net/t/194730/little-refrigeration-maybe#post_2217056

will burn out the minifridge http://www.overclock.net/t/318315/water-res-refrigeration#post_3694336

not intended to run continuously. http://www.overclock.net/t/3084/refrigerator-for-cooling-water#post_19881


there is one hundred and sixty nine ([url=http://www.overclock.net/search.php?search=refrigerator&currenttab=All&start=20) pages on trying to use a refrigerator as a cooling aid. you want to keep going and argue against all this combined knowledge?

[Sean_OBrien]

rudimentary understanding, but a good start.

It wasn't meant to be an extensive explanation of the Joule's Laws - rather just cliff note versions of the maximum amount of heat which you would need to deal with.


the thing is though, most of that energy ISN'T converted into thermal energy.

Which I stated (more than once).


And again, refrigerators are not rated to run continuously. They just aren't designed to do that. Since you're not looking at the cooling experiments on established overclocking forums, I'll do it for you.

Actually - I don't need to. I was designing cryogenic systems with slide rules long before there was any thought of using them to cool over clocked systems. I have designed cooling systems for computers for nearly 2 decades and have probably come across every problem which they have thought of on the various forums.


using a chiller http://www.overclock.net/t/1281848/refrigeration#post_17703767

Which I mentioned - though to be fair...water chillers, especially those designed for aquariums are plenty quiet, have plenty of cooling capacity and are rated for continuous use.


using a fridge will kill the pump http://www.overclock.net/t/54614/refrigerated-rig#post_580609

Again - that will actually depend on the refrigerator more than an actual blanket statement. Samsung and Panasonic compressors are a common component within higher end minifridges as well as commercial phase conversion coolers (they both operate on the same principle). Cheap fridges from the local big box store will likely have a low quality compressor which will just as likely crap out when you open the door as it would as a result of an increased duty cycle from heating.

Also, the example in that thread relates to a computer which is fully contained within the refrigerator - and the minimal thermal output of modern CPUs exceeds the maximum BTU cooling capacity of most minifridges.


half-duty phase change unit http://www.overclock.net/t/1120531/refrigerator-tecs#post_14984770

Again - it is a question of the specific components...and as I had mentioned, to maximize the use you will get out of things - you will likely need to make adjustments within the system.


tried using a freezer to cool the PC http://www.overclock.net/t/358676/the-refrigerator-thread#post_4205964

Again - likely outside the potential cooling capacity of the freezer...especially in a case where the whole computer is inside the freezer. In addition to the heat which you would need to deal with from the computer components you have the heat from the transformers and AC-DC converters in the power supply which is not insignificant. Isolating the power supply outside of the freezer would likely cut the thermal load in half.


this guy was a little crazier than some, using the coil itself http://www.overclock.net/t/15987/refrigerator-coil

Again...ummm...what?

The components of a refrigerator's (or freezer's) cooling are not hard to work with, nor especially dangerous. If you lay it out on a table, it looks identical to early phase change coolers for home computers (in large part...because that is where the companies who sold them started). The "dangerous chemicals" which your experts mention are likely R134a or R409a in the US - not terribly dangerous and in such low quantities that even if you were to cut a line on accident, your exposure would be minimal. I wouldn't recommend huffing them, but I have a couple 20 pound containers of them in my garage which I use for recharging the AC units in my cars - and I don't worry too much about them.


can't cool anything that produces heat in a refrigerator. http://www.overclock.net/t/1086792/reservoir-in-a-refrigerator#post_14504724

Again - blanket statements do not apply. The specific components and capacities are what matter. If your refrigerator is rated at 100 BTU (small dorm fridge)...it wouldn't be able to cool off the impact of the light bulb when the door is opened (40 watt light bulb would max out at a bit over 120 BTU of heat...not accounting for energy given off as light of course).

However, a refrigerator which is rated for 2500 BTU can remove 2500 BTU of thermal energy per hour. Even if you just went with the assumed 50% duty cycle which seems to be popular over in your choice of sources - that would be 1250 BTU of energy per hour with the pumps only running half the time. That would easily handle the heat generated from an overclocked CPU and a couple of tweaked video cards - likely it would handle all the heat generated from a system. What that means is that the fridge would be able to maintain what ever starting point temperature it was at at a 50% duty cycle.

Of course, cheap small refrigerators do not have the capacity as larger more expensive refrigerators.


can't handle the constant heat being added http://www.overclock.net/t/194730/little-refrigeration-maybe#post_2217056

Again - blanket statement.


will burn out the minifridge http://www.overclock.net/t/318315/water-res-refrigeration#post_3694336

See a pattern here? Another blanket statement.


not intended to run continuously. http://www.overclock.net/t/3084/refrigerator-for-cooling-water#post_19881

And still again.


there is one hundred and sixty nine ([url=http://www.overclock.net/search.php?search=refrigerator¤ttab=All&start=20) pages on trying to use a refrigerator as a cooling aid. you want to keep going and argue against all this combined knowledge?

The thing is that in the vast majority of instances, they are talking about using a stock minifridge. As we have established already, the BTU cooling capacity of those is not nearly capable of cooling much of anything. You can make adjustments to the cooling system of the minifridge which would enable you to get the cooling capacity up to the point where it can cool off a CPU or fairly well augment the cooling of a more or less standard water cooling system.

Specific options will depend on the specific equipment. Minor changes in the coolant charge and or type (high pressure R404a can increase capacity by 35% over R134a) can as much as double the efficiency of the stock cooling systems. Replacing pressure valves (or changing capillary tube sizes) to allow for a larger hi-lo pressure change from the evaporator to condenser side of the cooling system (fairly basic PVT gas law going on there - though the issues relating to subcooling of liquids in the phase change system). Replacing the cheap oil in the compressor with a high quality turbo oil allows you to increase the duty cycle of the compressor greatly. Removing dead space within the exchange chamber increases the rate of cooling (air is a horrible transfer medium and a great thermal insulator. If you simply have a radiator in a large empty space like a refridgerator (mini or otherwise) the speed of heat transfer from the "radiator" to the cooling coils will be much lower than it could potentially be - ideally, a heat exchanger where the radiator is in direct contact with the cooling coils would be used.

If you poke around a bit, you can find plenty of examples of chilled water coolers online which use refrigerators or freezers as the basis of their construction. Some are modified, others are pretty well stock parts. Others use portable (or window) A/C units - for the size, they have even higher BTU cooling capacities and generally are configured for longer duty cycles (generally the primary difference is with the oil used - though some extended duty compressors have heat sinks integrated into their cases.

[Phototoxin]

OCforums has a lot on watercooling.

[Psychosplodge]

So I'm bringing this back, Anyone know if it's safe to use none H2O based engine coolant as a pc coolant?

[Wolfshade]

They certainly have better thermal dissapation properties, but the thing you need to be careful of is that the coolant isn't corrosive, and doesn't increase the viscosity of the liquid otherwise the pump will have to work harder to push it round and can cause heat issues in its own right.

http://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-i/
http://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-ii/

[Psychosplodge]

I was looking at one called evens which apparently works at lower pressure reducing wear and tear on the pump...and no reactive to prevent engine corrosion.

[Wolfshade]

I've not heard of that, the concern I would have with lower pressure is that the liquid will remain a fairly consistent density so to reduce the pressure you have to reduce the flow rate and that in turn could affect thermal dissipation.

[Psychosplodge]

I assumed it must have been less dense, or more viscous, but if it's got a higher boiling point I would assume it's more dense so...no idea, back to air cooling I think.

[Wolfshade]

I think an "all-in-one" solution would solve any potential issues especially if the kit provides you with the requite addititves. It might not be the "best" option but it would give you re-assurance that everything would work

[Psychosplodge]

well you can sub things out but yeah I suppose I could do that, I was looking at the maintenance free angle though lol, I was looking at getting the 650D for my new build and then I read on a forum somewhere that it's a watercooling case...

[Wolfshade]

If that is the case the pros are that it should be rooted well.

The down side is that if the parts aren't forwards comptable it's a new case time

[Psychosplodge]

At the moment there are no parts...lol
I was looking at
Asus SABERTOOTH Z77 Socket 1155
i5 3570k
660ti
appropriate ram and ssd + hdd +2xdvd/rw

cooling either a water kit or noctua dh44 (or whatever it's called)

and currently the 650d is the front runner case wise...

[Wolfshade]

Cool, I keep thinking I should save up for a new PC, but then I think well a new bike would be more useful for me to be honest and then my car breaks and stuff

[Psychosplodge]

Well I'm at least twelve months behind in this build...things keep cropping up...

[Wolfshade]

Just think the savings you'd get on those original parts ;)

[Psychosplodge]

lol but they keep bringing new stuff out, certainly those are probably better parts than I would have been looking at then...

[Kirsten]

I don't have problems with cooling my PC personally, but then I do live in a secret underground base at the north pole. that andI have no PC.

[Fizzybubela]

I don't have problems with cooling my PC personally, but then I do live in a secret underground base at the north pole. that andI have no PC.
Xbox?

[Psychosplodge]

I don't have problems with cooling my PC personally, but then I do live in a secret underground base at the north pole. that andI have no PC.

Both those things will help cooling...