Question for Veterans of the Eye of Terror

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Not to be a hipster, but this question is really intended for people who been in the game awhile and it is an honest question, NOT an attempt to troll anyone.

The new rulebook and chaos codex both make a big fat deal about the 13th Crusade coming to signal the end times, fall of humanity, etc. etc.

Do any of you fellow old-timers find it hard to get real worked up over Abbadon's 13th Crusade when you already fought in it nearly a decade ago? -And other than St. Josmane's Hope suffering Exterminatus, not much happened?

Or are you able to put that memory aside, mentally ret-con the fluff, and pretend that the crusade is still gearing up?

[daboarder]

A fair biut happened,

Chaos technically won the ground war but the battlefleet Gothic results were so overwhelming that their fleets were irrevocably smashed. Eldrad got eaten by Slaanesh trying to destroy a Blackstone fortress. but not before he nearly killed Abbadon in combat. Typhus killed trillions with the zombie plague and the 13th company came howling out of the eye of terror. It was a good time to be a gamer.

[Chris Copeland]

Here's the thing: in 40K it is perpetually Dec 31st, 40,000 A.D. ... I'm OK with that...

[daboarder]

Here's the thing: in 40K it is perpetually Dec 31st, 40,000 A.D. ... I'm OK with that...

Exactly its a setting not a story, your battles can be based any time within htat 10000 years.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm not an old veteran, but I find it frustrating once in a while. I think the game would be improved by a willingness to advance the plot - even glacially - rather than leave it locked and stagnant.

[Durendin]

(Ciaphas Cain novels aside) Chris Copeland is essentially correct about 40K - if you want to move past that then it's up to you to take your pick as to how we all snuff it, 'Nids, Necrons (last codex) or Chaos?

Warhammer 40K is essentially "Dämmerung der Menschheit" to the Horus Heresy being Götterdämmerung eg. the Heresy was how the Gods died. 40K is how we die.

Hows that for grimdark!

[Col.Gravis]

My only fustration comes from the fact the international events were quite cool, and they've stopped doing them.

Yes, the storyline crept forward a tiny fraction and stopped dead, but a big part of me thinks thats essential, the game universe is at seconds to midnight, a cliffhanger, advance it and you have to extend that with yet more doom and gloom or conclude it one way or another, the former you can only do so much, the later detracts from the universe. Pushing the clock back by filling out what has happend prior in the timeline is IMHO a better way of doing it now.

[Poseidal]

The most frustrating things about it were for an Eldar player.

Of the Order side (Imperial, Eldar, Tau etc), Eldar did the best over the campaign and completed their objectives; in the WD battle report, Eldrad killed Abaddon in hand to hand in the game. The other order sides, (mainly Imperial) chose to allocate all their wins to Cadia which was heavily defended anyway and the area around was overrun by the disorder side, who did far better overall but didn't manage to breech the Webway.

For all of these victories, the Eldar 'won' Eldrad being killed. What they were given (manage to retake a crone world from pushing back the eye of terror in that area) was written out and glossed over.

[magickbk]

My biggest problem when I read through the new Chaos Codex was that it seems to be placed during the 13th Black Crusade, and did not seem to factor the conclusion of that event into the storyline.

[bfmusashi]

I'm A-okay with the excision. The Eye of Terror campaign was neat, but it went right for a grand event with UNIVERSE SHAKING RAMIFICATIONS and then they realized what the problems with that are. You can't advance time when you don't have a story to tell. 40k is a setting, it is not supposed to advance, you're supposed to move your focus.
The CSM suffer from most of their characters being stuck in one place. You're either in the 13th Black Crusade or King of the Pirates, no one's out there just Chaosing it up. So, you have a book where you're waiting for most of your SCs to get off from the shift that never ends.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm A-okay with the excision. The Eye of Terror campaign was neat, but it went right for a grand event with UNIVERSE SHAKING RAMIFICATIONS and then they realized what the problems with that are. You can't advance time when you don't have a story to tell. 40k is a setting, it is not supposed to advance, you're supposed to move your focus.
The CSM suffer from most of their characters being stuck in one place. You're either in the 13th Black Crusade or King of the Pirates, no one's out there just Chaosing it up. So, you have a book where you're waiting for most of your SCs to get off from the shift that never ends.

Here's the thing: lots of other wargames progress their storylines. WarmaHordes advances their storyline with every single supplement, as does Infinity to a somewhat lesser degree. I don't think being a setting for a wargame makes it impossible to advance the story that setting tells. In fact, given that they've already shown themselves capable of creating a global event, it's kind of sad that GW has decided not to even try.

[inquisitorsog]

Here's the thing: lots of other wargames progress their storylines. WarmaHordes advances their storyline with every single supplement, as does Infinity to a somewhat lesser degree. I don't think being a setting for a wargame makes it impossible to advance the story that setting tells. In fact, given that they've already shown themselves capable of creating a global event, it's kind of sad that GW has decided not to even try.

Also lots of RPGs ,etc. However, it's often done as a cloak of major system changes. Example: Battletech. FASA intro'ed the clans as an excuse to change the technology so that things that annoyed many players could be addressed w/out invalidating prior history and allowing those players who did like playing with a heat budget to still play the way they wanted.

In 40k, we have so many things "just out of camera" that they have plenty to expand upon w/out needing to advance the timeline. There also may be more demand for filling in the history than moving forward as seen in the apparent success of all things Horus Heresy.

They also have two too many "save the universe" scenarios playing out. Will the nids eat the universe or will the necrons disintegrate it? You've got an eternity of war perfectly set up with the Imperium, Chaos, Orks, and Tau(with Eldar and Dark Eldar sitting comfortably in the spoiler role), but the necrons and nids threaten that balance. It will take some imagination to sustain their threats into the future so that players and collectors of both are not cut out while not making it look purely artificial.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I wish it would tick over to the 42nd Millenium.

Been playing and interested in the game since 1999. Pretty scary given that I'm 24. I love everything in the setting, but I would love to see after the 13th. I mean, it's the same as the Storm of Chaos in Fantasy. Grimgor killed Archaon, screaming "Orcs is da best!" over a mound of fallen heroes, and all the fluff is still at the build up stage it was 2 editions ago.

I think the problem is that there are so many threats, and so many people with a vested interest in the direction of the narrative, that they can't keep a majority happy. So, stall it.

I'd like to see more Tyranids invasions. I want to see the Necrons unite. What's happening with the Orks on Armageddon? Is Eldrad ever going to manage a legendary escape from Slaanesh?

Hell, even if they tell me how long these End Times are, I'll be happy, regardless of how they actually go down. But no, it looks like it's gone the way of the 2nd Primarch.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

So we're stuck at the edge of the event horizon so-to-speak?

I get why its a permanent cliffhanger, but after having "fought" in the thing (badly) and seen how it ended...years ago...I just find it hard get my fluffwise-self all worked up about Abadabadoo. 'Name of the Game' aside, I would not mind a push into the next century.

I do appreciate others' opinions and the feedback though. I was honestly curious how others felt.

[magickbk]

They can advance the storyline without altering the setting. They have been doing this for years. The setting is the 41st millennium. The stuff in the game is from across that span of time, if you look at the dates in different books and the background.

For example, Blood Angels Captain Tycho has had profiles and story as a Company Captain, then as a Death Company Captain. Sergeant Naaman in the Dark Angels codex was listed as having been killed in combat in his background story.

It is possible for them to advance portions of the story without invalidating anything else. They can even advance story and kill off characters without having them no longer useable in the game. It would be feasible to even have a special character's successor in the same codex, and list that only one could be taken in a game, so that you could build different army lists from them.

[Wildeybeast]

They can advance the storyline without altering the setting. They have been doing this for years. The setting is the 41st millennium. The stuff in the game is from across that span of time, if you look at the dates in different books and the background.

For example, Blood Angels Captain Tycho has had profiles and story as a Company Captain, then as a Death Company Captain. Sergeant Naaman in the Dark Angels codex was listed as having been killed in combat in his background story.

It is possible for them to advance portions of the story without invalidating anything else. They can even advance story and kill off characters without having them no longer useable in the game. It would be feasible to even have a special character's successor in the same codex, and list that only one could be taken in a game, so that you could build different army lists from them.

They've done just this in Warhammer. Marius Leitdorf, one of the Empire SC's was killed off in a piece of army book fluff several editions ago, but he still crops up as a playable SC in the latest army book. He's just too much fun and too awesome to write out of the game. I think this is the way to go, minor changes to armies, writing in and out units and characters without sweeping changes to the overall background. They got rid of the global campaigns for the simple and sensible reasons that they often ended up in stalemate and GW realised they didn't like having their fluff entirely at the mercy of us. They were fun, but I don't lament them.

Also, has it really been that long since the Black Crusade campaign? That makes me feel old

[Poseidal]

Marius is mentioned as being killed in his army book description, but as an Averland player, I'm glad he's back in.

[Wildeybeast]

Exactly. When he first appeared way back when with rules he was alive, they offed him in a piece of fluff when he didn't have rules in the book, then they gave him new rules in this one but kept him as dead. They can advance individual stories and thus 'time' without moving on the whole the timeline. Admittedly it's easier in Warhammer because they don't have the whole 41k issue looming over it. They can change the year without it having any consequences.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Veteran of both Armageddon and the Black Crusade here!

The Armageddon campaign was the better idea. It was a huge campaign of great consequence (enough to get people excited and feel like they could really impact things), but it's also something that could add different results to the setting without having an apocalyptic effect on lore (killing off characters, shifting the entire setting). Black Crusade was too big. They're also not acknowledging the "result" of the campaign anymore, as far as I'm aware - the 13th Black Crusade as it stands is happening "right now", with everything still in the balance.

On that note: I wouldn't be too surprised (in fact, I hope this happens) if the Eldar book rolls around and Eldrad is listed as alive. Killing him off annoyed me, not least because his death was really lame.

I'd love to see another global campaign. I'd like to think that last year's Storm of Magic thing was testing some systems for another big one.

[magickbk]

Veteran of both Armageddon and the Black Crusade here!

The Armageddon campaign was the better idea. It was a huge campaign of great consequence (enough to get people excited and feel like they could really impact things), but it's also something that could add different results to the setting without having an apocalyptic effect on lore (killing off characters, shifting the entire setting). Black Crusade was too big. They're also not acknowledging the "result" of the campaign anymore, as far as I'm aware - the 13th Black Crusade as it stands is happening "right now", with everything still in the balance.

On that note: I wouldn't be too surprised (in fact, I hope this happens) if the Eldar book rolls around and Eldrad is listed as alive. Killing him off annoyed me, not least because his death was really lame.

I'd love to see another global campaign. I'd like to think that last year's Storm of Magic thing was testing some systems for another big one.

I also played in the Armageddon campaign, which was definitely run better than Eye of Terror. As a matter of fact, I was GW staff for both, and we had a huge amount of Armageddon support and special events in-store every few days, and Eye of Terror just sort of happened. We had very little to do with it in retail stores, other than a mega battle every other weekend.

The only thing that would make Eldrad's death not lame was if they include a Wraithseer in the Codex, and he is a special character Wraithseer...

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Also, has it really been that long since the Black Crusade campaign? That makes me feel old

I know, right? It doesn't seem nearly that long ago. We are old. None of my new students at the university can remember a time when Kurt Cobain was alive.

As for Eldrad, I can't quite remember how he died but it was something pretty lame. Didn't he choke on a chicken bone while sitting on a toilet in the Men's Room of the Black Library or something stupid like that?

[daboarder]

I also played in the Armageddon campaign, which was definitely run better than Eye of Terror. As a matter of fact, I was GW staff for both, and we had a huge amount of Armageddon support and special events in-store every few days, and Eye of Terror just sort of happened. We had very little to do with it in retail stores, other than a mega battle every other weekend.

The only thing that would make Eldrad's death not lame was if they include a Wraithseer in the Codex, and he is a special character Wraithseer...

Bit hard considering his souls is a chew toy, or considering its slaanesh, something worse!

Got his sole destroyed trying to take back a blackstone fortress, underestimated the warping power of chaos and didn't realise the fortress itself was now a daemon engine...gobble gobble gobble.

[Poseidal]

There is a hint he's still around from his acolyte Cassandra; and if we've learnt one thing it is to never disbelieve Cassandra.

But he did something odd and split himself into several spirit-stones beforehand.

[DF3CT]

Global Campaign 3: The Search for Eldrad

We find him as a reincarnated child and have to protect him while his growth is accelerated...wait....sounds familiar.

[inquisitorsog]

... and Eye of Terror just sort of happened. We had very little to do with it in retail stores, other than a mega battle every other weekend.

It was my impression at the time that they also gave us too little lead time between releasing the supplement and kicking off the campaign. It's great if you're taking an existing army, just go play. If you wanted to build (convert) a Lost and Damned army or 13th Company, it felt like way too little time.

[magickbk]

It was my impression at the time that they also gave us too little lead time between releasing the supplement and kicking off the campaign. It's great if you're taking an existing army, just go play. If you wanted to build (convert) a Lost and Damned army or 13th Company, it felt like way too little time.

That's tricky. Back when GW was my life, I could crank a 1750 point army in about 3 weeks if I really focused on it, which I did when the Tau were released(actually, 1500 in 2 weeks, which was the lead time between boxed armies entering the US from customs and the actual release date). Now it takes me 1-3 years to paint 1000 points, between spending far more time per model, and having far less time to actually work on them.

The way that events were run for Eye of Terror in-store was escalation style. The first one everyone needed 1 squad. Then we had a tank battle or something like that. Then it was a force of a few hundred points, etc. That way people had time to build up the new armies if they wanted. The main thing was that the battles in store really had no effect outside the store that I knew of. People reported their own battles on the website.

For Armageddon, after each event, we reported the result to GW HQ, as well as anything remarkable that happened. Each country was a particular part of the battle zone (UK was Hades Hive, US was Hive Secundus, I think) and the effects of the big events in the store were used to determine the story and the events that followed.

[Kyban]

Eldrad's death was kind of dumb, I feel like he should've seen that coming and/or been able to resist it, though I haven't actually thoroughly read that portion of fluff. He should've seen his death coming but have been forced to sacrifice himself for his Craftworld to survive or something like that, it seem more appropriate.

I haven't read all of the fluff in the new codex yet, does it actually change the events or just exist during a certain time period? It'd be fine if the codex just "takes place" before a previously covered event but I'm also okay with it changing a few things if it makes for a better story.

[Sure]

Global Campaign 3: The Search for Eldrad

We find him as a reincarnated child and have to protect him while his growth is accelerated...wait....sounds familiar.

I don't care what anyone else said, you won this thread.

[Sure]

Eldrad's death was kind of dumb, I feel like he should've seen that coming and/or been able to resist it, though I haven't actually thoroughly read that portion of fluff. He should've seen his death coming but have been forced to sacrifice himself for his Craftworld to survive or something like that, it seem more appropriate.

I haven't read all of the fluff in the new codex yet, does it actually change the events or just exist during a certain time period? It'd be fine if the codex just "takes place" before a previously covered event but I'm also okay with it changing a few things if it makes for a better story.

Seriously, it's like he wasn't seeing far at all.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I haven't read all of the fluff in the new codex yet, does it actually change the events or just exist during a certain time period? It'd be fine if the codex just "takes place" before a previously covered event but I'm also okay with it changing a few things if it makes for a better story.

It is the former. It designates "now" (for lack of a better term) immediately before the Eye of Terror campaign. Which took place nine years ago.

[bfmusashi]

Not to get too far off topic, but was anyone else disapointed the CSM didn't seem more effective in their own book? In Codex: Grey Knights Ahriman performs a crippling strike against the IoM (at Jollana) and then trolls the *******s hard in absentia. It's like the solution to making Abbadon look less like a chump was to stop making everyone else look rad.

[inquisitorsog]

Not to get too far off topic, but was anyone else disapointed the CSM didn't seem more effective in their own book? In Codex: Grey Knights Ahriman performs a crippling strike against the IoM (at Jollana) and then trolls the *******s hard in absentia. It's like the solution to making Abbadon look less like a chump was to stop making everyone else look rad.

It's the old problem. If you and I were facing off and I had Ultramorons and you had Imperial Grubs, then shouldn't I have like 10 troops on the table to your 500?