Reserves Questions

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, I have another query about a prospective army.

I know how the Reserves rules work in regards to placing half your army in reserve, and that units that must be placed in reserve are not counted towards that limit.
My question is, do attached Independent Characters inside Drop Pods count, even though they are inside of a unit that must start in reserve? Whilst it says to count Independent Characters separately, it does not state how this works in regards to units that must start in reserve, i.e. drop pods.

Also, I have another query in regards to Terminators - I've been led to believe that they can choose to Deep Strike regardless of mission special rules, which Reserves falls under. I asked this question in regards to a Grey Knight Storm Raven list I was looking at doing earlier - I was told that though they wouldn't have been allowed to start in the Storm Ravens, as they would have exceeded my army limit, I could still Deep Strike them as they could do this regardless of mission special rules(but not in the Storm Raven) - it is in their codex entries, but I don't know if the BRB or any FAQs have updates on the matter.

Essentially, this is all in relation to a fun and themed Salamanders list I have wanted to do for a few months. It is on the back-burner for the moment, but I would like to hopefully sort out some of these lingering issues by the time I start them. Basically, it has Vulkan, a Master of the Forge, 2 Ironclads, 2 Lucius Drop Pods, 2 Tactical Squads, 2 Drop Pods, 2 Assault Terminator squads. Whilst the Ironclads, Tactical Squads and the Drop Pod variants don't count, I am wondering if Vulkan and the MotF would, and would the Terminators then be able to Deep Strike regardless.

Thanks for any and all input!

[Nabterayl]

Are you putting the ICs in drop pods? Units that start in transports that MUST be Reserved do not count towards your army Reserve limit, even if the passengers themselves do not HAVE to start in Reserve, or in the must-be-Reserved transport, per the BRB FAQ. ICs still count as their own units, even while attached, but if in a MBRT, neither the IC nor the unit he has joined count.

Not sure if you're clear on this or not, but while any GIVEN terminator squad can Deep Strike, terminators as a unit do not HAVE to start in Reserve, and thus do count towards your army Reserve limit.

To take the list you sketched as an example, you would have 12 units regardless of whether Vulkan and the MotF joined a unit, in or out of a transport. For these purposes they are their own unit no matter what. Four of your units (the four drop pods) must be led in Reserve, so you're down to eight optionally-Reserved units. Put the two Ironclads in the Lucius pods, and they don't count anymore either - down to six. Put the two tactical squads in pods and they don't count anymore. You are now down to four optionally Reserved units: Vulkan, the Master of the Forge, and the two assault terminator squads. The two ICs could jump in drop pods, leaving you with only two OR units: the terminators. Half those units MUST start on the board, so you could Deep Strike one terminator squad, but not the other.

Make sense?

[Tynskel]

I don't have my codex(es) in front of me, but in the past, the description of Terminator Armor has stated that Terminators may always be placed into reserves, even if reserves are not allowed. This may have changed.

opps, forgot i have the ipad version of Space Marines.
Terminator armor may always start in reserves, whether reserves are allowed or not. So, they technically don't count toward the ground limit of units on the board vs reserves.

[Learn2Eel]

Are you putting the ICs in drop pods? Units that start in transports that MUST be Reserved do not count towards your army Reserve limit, even if the passengers themselves do not HAVE to start in Reserve, or in the must-be-Reserved transport, per the BRB FAQ. ICs still count as their own units, even while attached, but if in a MBRT, neither the IC nor the unit he has joined count.

Not sure if you're clear on this or not, but while any GIVEN terminator squad can Deep Strike, terminators as a unit do not HAVE to start in Reserve, and thus do count towards your army Reserve limit.

To take the list you sketched as an example, you would have 12 units regardless of whether Vulkan and the MotF joined a unit, in or out of a transport. For these purposes they are their own unit no matter what. Four of your units (the four drop pods) must be led in Reserve, so you're down to eight optionally-Reserved units. Put the two Ironclads in the Lucius pods, and they don't count anymore either - down to six. Put the two tactical squads in pods and they don't count anymore. You are now down to four optionally Reserved units: Vulkan, the Master of the Forge, and the two assault terminator squads. The two ICs could jump in drop pods, leaving you with only two OR units: the terminators. Half those units MUST start on the board, so you could Deep Strike one terminator squad, but not the other.

Make sense?

Thanks, that makes perfect sense :) Cheers!

@Tynskel Yeah, that was what I remember reading. Not sure if the BRB or FAQs have changed that though.

Edit: Checked the Codex: Space Marines FAQ and there is nothing relating to Terminators that I could see. By the looks of it, that "may always deep strike regardless of the mission special rules" paragraph still applies.

[Nabterayl]

I don't believe it has (also don't have codices handy), but note that being ALLOWED to be placed in Reserves is not the same as being FORCED to be placed in Reserve. Only the latter types of units, and their passengers, are ignored for purposes of determining whether more than half of your army is in Reserve.

[Tynskel]

Allowed vs forced is unique in this circumstance because of the word "Always".

Terminator Armor states that they may 'always' be placed into reserves (arriving by teleportation only). That is a direct conflict with the reserve rules, and the terminator rules is quite specific.

Always, in this case, means that no matter the circumstance, you may teleport terminators.

For example:
you have 2 drop pods of tactical troops. HQ is in one drop pod. You only have terminators as the rest of your force.

In this case, the terminator rule overrides the must be deployed to the board rule. Otherwise, the word 'always' would be meaningless.

I vaguely remember a time when lawyers stated that they don't like meaningless phrases in rules...

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I agree, Tynskel. Have to double check the codex wording when one of us can call up the relevant cites.

[Tynskel]

I have the codex on iPad, and it is updated for 6th (terminator armor has the 'bulky' rule).

[SacredChao]

The issue with the terminators is they dont HAVE to start in reserve. The rule may say that they always CAN start in reserve, but the limit only takes into account units that MUST start in reserve, ie Flyers, Drop pods, Daemons. The units inside only don't count if the unit that MUST start in reserves is a dedicated transport. So if you have a Storm Raven, the guys inside will be counting towards your limit.

So in the list the OP stated, the Tac squads take the drop pods as dedicated, so they dont count, the dreadnoughts take the lucius drop pods, so they dont count, and the IC join the tac squads so all you are left is the 2 terminators. The terminators don't HAVE to, even though they can, so you may have one in reserve, one on the table.

[Nabterayl]

So the rule in question is that models in terminator armor "may always Deep Strike regardless of mission special rules?" If that is the case, I agree that terminators may always be placed in Reserve to Deep Strike, even if doing so violates the army's Reserve limit.

It's not relevant to the OP's list, but I don't think that's QUITE the same as not counting for army Reserve purposes. For instance, if you had two scout squad's and two terminator squads, you would have the option of placing the two scout squads on the table, and the two terminator squads in Reserve. I don't think the terminator rule would let you place only one scout squad on the table and both terminator squads in Reserve. In the OP's case, though, I agree he oils Reserve his entire army.

[Tynskel]

Jump Pack Marines don't have to start in reserves. The Rulebook grants them the ability to deep strike (and be placed into reserves in general).

However, Terminators have the ability to always teleport. Very specific. This doesn't allow you to always place them into reserves, it allows you to always place them into reserves to teleport.

"Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules, even if it is not part of the mission being played."

This is a specific codex rule that is in conflict with the main rulebook rules.

Back to my example.
you have 2 drop pods of tactical troops. HQ is in one drop pod. You only have terminators as the rest of your force.

In this case, the terminator rule overrides the must be deployed to the board rule. You may 'always' place terminators into reserve 'if' you are 'teleporting' them. Note, I cannot just place them into reserve. They cannot outflank (Kor'sarro Khan). They cannot walk on from the board edge. They cannot be 'jump out' of a thunderhawk (like Assault Marines).

They can only teleport.
If you do place them into reserves, in this instance, they are 'forced' to teleport. ie. they don't count toward the board limit.

Example 2
you have 2 drop pods of tactical troops. HQ is in one drop pod. You have 3 terminator squads, and 1 scout squads.

to place the scout squad in reserve, you MUST place one unit on the board. To place all 3 terminator squads into teleport reserves, you only have to place the scouts on the board.

Example 3

you have 2 drop pods of tactical troops. HQ is in one drop pod. You have 2 terminator squads and 1 terminator squad with a deep strike capable land raider.

To deep strike the land raider 1 unit MUST be placed on the board.
you may always have the terminators deep strike by teleport.

[Nabterayl]

Agreed on all counts.

[Learn2Eel]

Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated! :)
Going to be a fun and nasty little alpha strike list.