Black History Month?

[Wildeybeast]

Firstly a disclaimer to avoid any confusion. I have no prejudices of any kind and this is not intended as an offensive thread, rather a debate about where society is at. Please check your prejudices at the door.

So, apparently October is Black History Month (according to the assembly we had at school today). I gather this is an American thing that was imported over here in the 80's, though it's the first I've heard about it. My question is -why? Do 'minority' groups really need all these special events to celebrate their culture? Black History Month, Gay Pride marches, Jamaican carnivals and so on and so forth. In this age of inclusivity, surely it is better that we all treat each other as equals and ignore differences, rather than holding events which serve only to highlight differences and draw attention to 'minority' groups? I agree with Morgan Freeman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s) on this one, lets just all be human and leave it at that. What do you think? Are all these events necessary

[Psychosplodge]

I'm sure we touched on this about 15 years ago when I was in year 9, personally I found it very once sided.

[wittdooley]

Dude you need to come on over here. Literally every other month is dedicated to either a minority or a social cause.

[ElectricPaladin]

So first of all, Wildey, I've got to stop you there. Sadly, you don't get to say "I have no prejudices." Not everyone with racist attitudes knows it. You can say "I have the best of intentions," and I'll believe you without question, but you don't get to claim you know everything going on in the depths of your head. It's a sad but unavoidable consequence of the way human brains work.

That said, I don't think you're racist. In fact, I think that you (and Morgan Freeman, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and others) are right. But there's more to the story.

X History Month is a flawed solution, but it's a flawed solution to an extant problem. There are still parts of America where people are trying very hard to pretend that some of the worst parts of American history never happened. History Months do something - not everything, but something - to erode that.

If you have a better idea and can implement it, I think everyone would be happy to let the History Months become history, but until someone a) has that idea and b) manages to get it going, I don't think we are a sufficiently free and open society to let this artifact fall by the wayside.

[Deadlift]

I don't know, why shouldn't folks of any given race, background, sexual orientation or whatever, all get together and celebrate what they are ? No harm done and if it makes them happy why not.
Celebrating ones culture is also a great way of sharing with others what your all about. Britain is a multi cultural society and this kind of thing can only lead to better understand amongst the melting pot.

Sorry if I sound all cuddly liberal (I consider myself a Conservative actually) and I know sometimes I may make the odd crass joke on here etc but that's just me being a prat on purpose. But I just love getting to know stuff about people, and if that involves different cultures thats cool,it usually involves food too. I like food.

[Wildeybeast]

So first of all, Wildey, I've got to stop you there. Sadly, you don't get to say "I have no prejudices." Not everyone with racist attitudes knows it. You can say "I have the best of intentions," and I'll believe you without question, but you don't get to claim you know everything going on in the depths of your head. It's a sad but unavoidable consequence of the way human brains work.

That said, I don't think you're racist. In fact, I think that you (and Morgan Freeman, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and others) are right. But there's more to the story.

X History Month is a flawed solution, but it's a flawed solution to an extant problem. There are still parts of America where people are trying very hard to pretend that some of the worst parts of American history never happened. History Months do something - not everything, but something - to erode that.

If you have a better idea and can implement it, I think everyone would be happy to let the History Months become history, but until someone a) has that idea and b) manages to get it going, I don't think we are a sufficiently free and open society to let this artifact fall by the wayside.

What???? I'm pretty sure the most qualified person to judge what is going in my head is me. And I'm certain that when I say I have no prejudices, I have no prejudices. I fully appreciate that plenty of people with prejudicial attitudes don't recognise it, but there are plenty of people who don't have prejudicial attitudes and know it, because they don't. I am one of them. A core part of my job is teaching kids to understand what prejudice is, how to recognise it and the effect it has on people. So, yeah, I do get to say that I don't have prejudicial attitudes because it is entirely true. You are in no position to say otherwise and I take very grave exception your implied suggestion that I might have some sort of prejudicial views. You do not get to make any calls about whether or not I am a racist based on some pretentious notion that you have greater understanding of the working of my brain than me.

As to your other point, I get that people try to pretend that the worst part of history didn't happen, but I'm not sure that 'minority cultural celebration day/week/month' etc is any kind of solution, never mind a flawed one. When I teach about the Holocaust, it isn't part of German history, or Jewish history, or even WW2. We do it as part of human history and set alongside all the other ****ty genocides that have happened and point out that people of any colour/religion/nationality are perfectly capable of being monstrously evil for the most stupid of reasons. We should raise awareness of all the terrible things that have happened, but do it as part of one continuous story of humanity. If we constantly celebrate/emphasise the differences, how can we ever expect people to see past them? The Olympic fever that swept the UK recently is a great example of this. It was great example of a very diverse group of people coming together to celebrate some of the nobler aspects of humanity, regardless of social standing, colour, religion. It was great example of MLK's dream of the only thing mattering was the content of people's character. When we embrace that, everything else falls by the wayside. An idealistic and perhaps futile goal, but my point is I don't see how 'minority group celebration of the week' does anything to contribute to this goal.

[Denzark]

Here is an article from telegraph online - Malty don't laugh. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9597072/Balls-to-femininity-start-shouting-Julia-Gillard-style.html

In it, we see:

An Amercian ex-boyfriend of mine never used to let me, or any woman, fill up a car with petrol. When we pulled into a garage, even if it was me driving my own car, he would leap out and make a lunge for the nozzle. He said it was just the way he was raised, and I'm embarrassed to say, I always let him do it .

One day he returned from work looking pensive. He said he had been driven to a meeting by a female colleague and they had stopped for petrol. He had got out of her car but she had stopped him, asking what he was doing. He said, 'my father told me, never let a woman pump her own petrol'. She had looked at him squarely and said, 'look, I'm sure you mean well, but I'm afraid it's attitudes like that that are stopping a women becoming president of the United States'


Now this clearly doesn't transpose directly across to president given the child of white mother, black father - aka Obama - has called himself black. But as a matter of principle - I would paraphrase as stop mollycoddling people because they are (insert group based on age gender colour sexuality religion here), I would say there will never be true equality whilst things like this are permitted. Either do without, or have a white history month as well.

[DarkLink]

I've actually posted that Morgan Freeman clip on here before, for... something, I forget what.


Sadly, you don't get to say "I have no prejudices." Not everyone with racist attitudes knows it.

WTF? So no one in the world, ever, is allowed to say that they're not racist because they do not believe that skin color influences behavior or capability? Or is this one of those bull**** "you're white, so you're automatically a little racist inside" things?

[Wildeybeast]

WTF? So no one in the world, ever, is allowed to say that they're not racist because they do not believe that skin color influences behavior or capability? Or is this one of those bull**** "you're white, so you're automatically a little racist inside" things?

Thanks DL, glad someone else thought that comment was nonsense.

[ElectricPaladin]

What???? I'm pretty sure the most qualified person to judge what is going in my head is me. And I'm certain that when I say I have no prejudices, I have no prejudices. I fully appreciate that plenty of people with prejudicial attitudes don't recognise it, but there are plenty of people who don't have prejudicial attitudes and know it, because they don't. I am one of them. A core part of my job is teaching kids to understand what prejudice is, how to recognise it and the effect it has on people. So, yeah, I do get to say that I don't have prejudicial attitudes because it is entirely true. You are in no position to say otherwise and I take very grave exception your implied suggestion that I might have some sort of prejudicial views. You do not get to make any calls about whether or not I am a racist based on some pretentious notion that you have greater understanding of the working of my brain than me.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I think you're taking what I said too far. I never said "I know that you are racist." I didn't say "other people are equipped to tell you what you are" at all. I agree that no one is in a position to tell anyone else what they are or are not.

What I said was "you don't know that you are not racist." In retrospect, this might have been a little roundabout. To put it more bluntly, prefacing a comment with "so, I'm not prejudiced..." is completely meaningless. The Grand Dragon of the KKK can form the same words with his mouth or type them on the Internet (well, he could, but for the fact that the KKK barely even exists anymore).

The fact is that your preface meant nothing. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, you don't know what's lurking in your head, and neither do I, and neither do I know what's lurking in my head. That's what it means to be human. If you walk around assuming "I know that I'm not prejudiced so I don't need to worry," then you are basically asking to screw it up.

My brother is like that, which is why he has managed to insult my transgendered friends, my Latino friends, my Christian friends, and my gay friends. He's convinced that because he lives in New York and votes Liberal he can't possibly be racist or classist. He knows he has no prejudices, right?

I prefer to look at it as a constant struggle. I acknowledge that there are attitudes lingering in the depths of my mind, things I picked up through no fault of my own, and I try to confront them when they come up. If you asked me "ElectricPaladin, are you homophobic?" I'd respond "I try very hard to treat everyone with respect."1 I have nothing to prove, but I know better than to pretend that I know myself fully.

Ahem. On to the main point.


As to your other point, I get that people try to pretend that the worst part of history didn't happen, but I'm not sure that 'minority cultural celebration day/week/month' etc is any kind of solution, never mind a flawed one. When I teach about the Holocaust, it isn't part of German history, or Jewish history, or even WW2. We do it as part of human history and set alongside all the other ****ty genocides that have happened and point out that people of any colour/religion/nationality are perfectly capable of being monstrously evil for the most stupid of reasons. We should raise awareness of all the terrible things that have happened, but do it as part of one continuous story of humanity. If we constantly celebrate/emphasise the differences, how can we ever expect people to see past them? The Olympic fever that swept the UK recently is a great example of this. It was great example of a very diverse group of people coming together to celebrate some of the nobler aspects of humanity, regardless of social standing, colour, religion. It was great example of MLK's dream of the only thing mattering was the content of people's character. When we embrace that, everything else falls by the wayside. An idealistic and perhaps futile goal, but my point is I don't see how 'minority group celebration of the week' does anything to contribute to this goal.

So, first of all, I think that by claiming that we should see "past" the differences, you are creating "difference" as a problem. Difference is not and has never been the problem. Africans were not enslaved in America because they had linguistic, cultural, and extremely minor biological differences. They were enslaved because of a bad combination of economic need and moral bankruptcy. Are gay boys beaten up and gay girls raped and gay kids kicked out of their homes because they're different? No! They're beaten and raped because someone somewhere has decided that an extremely limited interpretation of a huge and complex religious text is more important than following said text's basic principles.

Blaming the difference lets people off the hook. Difference is not the problem. Do^chebaggery is the problem. Don't be a do^che.

In my mind, difference is great. Difference is the spice that makes the world neat! I don't want to look past the differences - I want to embrace them and celebrate them! "You believe that? Awesome! Wow. It's cool how I grew up a few miles away from you and I believe this!"

Just because people are different doesn't mean that they can't connect, and you don't need to ignore or "look past" the differences in order to do so. Do you really think that the human capacity to love is so weak? I think we can empathize with each other while remaining fully cognizant of our differences.

On to the specifics, I really think you don't realize how bad it is in some parts of the world. In America we just had a presidential candidate say that he would have an easier time running for president if he were Latino. Because America has a long history of Latino presidents and... um. Yeah. No. Actually, we just elected our first non-Anglo four years ago. Even if you support Romney, it's hard to support that statement as not being a little bit tasteless and a lot false. Maybe Romney would have been better off if his school had done some Latino History Month activities.

Or take another recent political moment of zen in America. Scott Brown of MA, accusing his opponent of not being "really" Native American and claiming that she has reaped some substantive social and economic benefit for owning her heritage. Because first of all, how does he know? And second of all... I think genocide stands for itself, not to mention the fairly awful poverty that most of America's indigenous population lives in.

Wildy, your subtitle says that you live in the UK. I live in America. My country has a really awful track record with race. Yours... has a different track record. I don't know too much about it. I'm given to believe that you have some immigration issues, but that you really have come to ignore most of the ethnic divisions that once split your nation apart (I'm Jewish and grew up in New York - all Brits look alike to me).

So I'll lay it out like this: there are huge chunks of America that believe some really backwards and counterfactual things about race. There are places where politicians still say that slavery was great for Africans. There are places where most people don't quite believe the Holocaust happened. There are places where references to the Trail of Tears and the smallpox blankets and other acts of genocide by Anglo settlers are removed from school history books. There are places where the various minor wars between early Americans and Mexicans are re-written so that the Americans are always the honorable heroes.

I'm not trying to blame anyone here. If you go back far enough everyone's a d*ck.

The point I'm making is that by creating cultural celebrations like this, you can chip away at these huge blocks of prejudice and ignorance. Sure, it starts silly - "let's all eat Afro-Cuban food and learn about how much slavery sucked!" - but it's a start, and I really think it's the best tactic we've got.

1. Actually, my knee-jerk response would be "of course not, do you know how long I campaigned against Prop 8!?!" But if I thought about it, that's what I'd say.

[Sean_OBrien]

What???? I'm pretty sure the most qualified person to judge what is going in my head is me.

Welcome to American politics...

If you are white, especially white male - you must be racist. If you deny being racist, that obviously means you are exceptionally racist.

As far as the X History Month - as wittdooley said, we have a lot of them here. In general it is a good way to divide the population as opposed to unite them, and they should never have been brought about at all. All they tend to do is enforce differences and accentuate them as opposed to do what should happen and have people judged for what they do, not who they are. The opposite though is happening during these X History Months and the end result is a divided population which leads to stuff like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2exdD9MthI&feature=youtu.be


Celebrating ones culture is also a great way of sharing with others what your all about. Britain is a multi cultural society and this kind of thing can only lead to better understand amongst the melting pot.

Celebrating ones culture is a good bit different. These are not about culture - at least not in the traditional sense. They tend to be specifically about race regardless of culture. For example BO was raised by white people in Hawaii - that is his culture. His racial background might be different but that is no more who he is than my Irish and German blood are part of mine...at least until someone makes something of it. My culture is that of a midwest farmer, and it didn't make a difference if it was my family group who was predominantly German or the neighbors who were predominantly Swedes or even Gonzales (Spanish of some form) or Sanchez (Filipino) farms which had lived in the area for nearly 100 years and didn't pretend to be something they weren't (which was Midwest farmers). Around the holidays, you might see specific ethnic traditions. Things like gefilte fish and other old family recipes - some recipes would be past around, others...not to many people had interest in other than maintaining the old family traditions.

However, the pot was fully melted - and as kids growing up, we didn't think of anything different among the people we lived near. Even when the farms started to go under, it didn't matter what color your skin was to the banks and it didn't matter to your neighbors either - if your farm was taken, then your neighbors all sort of helped out with different things they could and I spent more than a bit of time working for people who looked like me and for people who didn't.

Now however when I go back to the area I grew up in there is a definite separation. The only thing that changed was the addition of various X History Months to the formula. There isn't anything wrong with enjoying your old traditions, but once you start to denote the differences they become more pronounced as opposed to a better understanding and more integrated.

[ElectricPaladin]

If you are white, especially white male - you must be racist. If you deny being racist, that obviously means you are exceptionally racist.


That's a lovely sentiment, but I'd really like someone to respond to what I actually wrote, rather than what you imagine I wrote.

That would be a hilarious first.

[Mud Duck]

@ Darklink and Wildeybeast. I wonder if ElectricPaladin didn't misspeak/ type? Replace 'racist' with 'prejudicial'. I'm going to argue that there isn't person on the planet who hasn't profiled.

As to your original post Wildey, I thought that February was Black History, and October is Breast Cancer.

Edit: I think that he was referring to the general thought in politics, not to you EP. And trust me, that attitude is alive in well in the states.... =P

[ElectricPaladin]

@ Darklink and Wildeybeast. I wonder if ElectricPaladin didn't misspeak/ type? Replace 'racist' with 'prejudicial'. I'm going to argue that there isn't person on the planet who hasn't profiled.


I'm pretty sure I was clear, but if that's what it takes to get what I was trying to say through, then I'll allow it.

[Sean_OBrien]

@ Darklink and Wildeybeast. I wonder if ElectricPaladin didn't misspeak/ type? Replace 'racist' with 'prejudicial'. I'm going to argue that there isn't person on the planet who hasn't profiled.

As to your original post Wildey, I thought that February was Black History, and October is Breast Cancer.

Different side of the pond...different calender month...same principal.

Regarding the terms racist versus prejudiced - that is a distinction without a difference. One tends to be kinder to the ears, but they both mean effectively the same thing within the context of black history month. The only real difference is that the term prejudice actually allows the one claiming another to be to expand their level of insult beyond just race and into all manner of other subjects:

http://thesaurus.com/browse/prejudice

[DarkLink]

What I said was "you don't know that you are not racist." In retrospect, this might have been a little roundabout. To put it more bluntly, prefacing a comment with "so, I'm not prejudiced..." is completely meaningless. The Grand Dragon of the KKK can form the same words with his mouth or type them on the Internet (well, he could, but for the fact that the KKK barely even exists anymore).

How utterly pointless. The idea that no one is allowed to claim to not-be-racist, which is exactly what you claimed (or maybe just that Wildeybeast can't claim to be not-racist ;)), is as silly as claiming Ghandi can't claim to be non-violent because there are a lot of violent people in the world.



So, first of all, I think that by claiming that we should see "past" the differences, you are creating "difference" as a problem.

Or take another recent political moment of zen in America. Scott Brown of MA, accusing his opponent of not being "really" Native American and claiming that she has reaped some substantive social and economic benefit for owning her heritage. Because first of all, how does he know? And second of all... I think genocide stands for itself, not to mention the fairly awful poverty that most of America's indigenous population lives in.

The point I'm making is that by creating cultural celebrations like this, you can chip away at these huge blocks of prejudice and ignorance. Sure, it starts silly - "let's all eat Afro-Cuban food and learn about how much slavery sucked!" - but it's a start, and I really think it's the best tactic we've got.


You're contradicting yourself here.

On one hand, you're pointing out that the perpetuation of the idea that isolating race and culture artificially creates a barrier between races and cultures that helps perpetuate racism (which I fully agree with, btw).

Then you turn around and say that we should emphasize those differences even more than we already do with things like Black History month, as if building another room on a burning building will stop the fire.

Our history of prancing around racial issued with stuff like black history month is precisely the reason why it's such a big and sensitive issue in America.

It's not like there's an easy answer, other than the systematic elimination of racist policies in government and business (which we have already implemented about as well as any massive, clumsy, bureaucratic can, not to say that it's perfect by any means), but again, I'm with Morgan Freeman on this one. Stuff like Black History month, which I've never seen anyone take seriously, trivializes a serious issue. You want to help blacks and hispanics out? Figure out a way to pull ghettos up out of poverty. And, no, welfare is not an answer. Welfare is a not-at-all-adequate bandage, it does not create prosperity, it simply avoids completely hitting rock bottom, so you need something else to bring people back out.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I think you're taking what I said too far. I never said "I know that you are racist." I didn't say "other people are equipped to tell you what you are" at all. I agree that no one is in a position to tell anyone else what they are or are not.

What I said was "you don't know that you are not racist." In retrospect, this might have been a little roundabout. To put it more bluntly, prefacing a comment with "so, I'm not prejudiced..." is completely meaningless. The Grand Dragon of the KKK can form the same words with his mouth or type them on the Internet (well, he could, but for the fact that the KKK barely even exists anymore).

The fact is that your preface meant nothing. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, you don't know what's lurking in your head, and neither do I, and neither do I know what's lurking in my head. That's what it means to be human. If you walk around assuming "I know that I'm not prejudiced so I don't need to worry," then you are basically asking to screw it up.

My brother is like that, which is why he has managed to insult my transgendered friends, my Latino friends, my Christian friends, and my gay friends. He's convinced that because he lives in New York and votes Liberal he can't possibly be racist or classist. He knows he has no prejudices, right?

I prefer to look at it as a constant struggle. I acknowledge that there are attitudes lingering in the depths of my mind, things I picked up through no fault of my own, and I try to confront them when they come up. If you asked me "ElectricPaladin, are you homophobic?" I'd respond "I try very hard to treat everyone with respect."1 I have nothing to prove, but I know better than to pretend that I know myself fully.

I know exactly what is lurking in my head and like everyone not all of it is good, but prejudice is not one of the things in there. I do however take your point that the disclaimer was somewhat redundant as it's by our actions and not our words that we should be judged, but since this it internet and on here all we have is our words, I thought it best to make my intentions clear to avoid confusion and allow us to discuss a sensitive topic in a reasonable and adult manner. So let's do just that.




Ahem. On to the main point.



So, first of all, I think that by claiming that we should see "past" the differences, you are creating "difference" as a problem. Difference is not and has never been the problem. Africans were not enslaved in America because they had linguistic, cultural, and extremely minor biological differences. They were enslaved because of a bad combination of economic need and moral bankruptcy. Are gay boys beaten up and gay girls raped and gay kids kicked out of their homes because they're different? No! They're beaten and raped because someone somewhere has decided that an extremely limited interpretation of a huge and complex religious text is more important than following said text's basic principles.

Blaming the difference lets people off the hook. Difference is not the problem. Do^chebaggery is the problem. Don't be a do^che.

In my mind, difference is great. Difference is the spice that makes the world neat! I don't want to look past the differences - I want to embrace them and celebrate them! "You believe that? Awesome! Wow. It's cool how I grew up a few miles away from you and I believe this!"

Just because people are different doesn't mean that they can't connect, and you don't need to ignore or "look past" the differences in order to do so. Do you really think that the human capacity to love is so weak? I think we can empathize with each other while remaining fully cognizant of our differences.

On to the specifics, I really think you don't realize how bad it is in some parts of the world. In America we just had a presidential candidate say that he would have an easier time running for president if he were Latino. Because America has a long history of Latino presidents and... um. Yeah. No. Actually, we just elected our first non-Anglo four years ago. Even if you support Romney, it's hard to support that statement as not being a little bit tasteless and a lot false. Maybe Romney would have been better off if his school had done some Latino History Month activities.

Or take another recent political moment of zen in America. Scott Brown of MA, accusing his opponent of not being "really" Native American and claiming that she has reaped some substantive social and economic benefit for owning her heritage. Because first of all, how does he know? And second of all... I think genocide stands for itself, not to mention the fairly awful poverty that most of America's indigenous population lives in.

Wildy, your subtitle says that you live in the UK. I live in America. My country has a really awful track record with race. Yours... has a different track record. I don't know too much about it. I'm given to believe that you have some immigration issues, but that you really have come to ignore most of the ethnic divisions that once split your nation apart (I'm Jewish and grew up in New York - all Brits look alike to me).

So I'll lay it out like this: there are huge chunks of America that believe some really backwards and counterfactual things about race. There are places where politicians still say that slavery was great for Africans. There are places where most people don't quite believe the Holocaust happened. There are places where references to the Trail of Tears and the smallpox blankets and other acts of genocide by Anglo settlers are removed from school history books. There are places where the various minor wars between early Americans and Mexicans are re-written so that the Americans are always the honorable heroes.

I'm not trying to blame anyone here. If you go back far enough everyone's a d*ck.

The point I'm making is that by creating cultural celebrations like this, you can chip away at these huge blocks of prejudice and ignorance. Sure, it starts silly - "let's all eat Afro-Cuban food and learn about how much slavery sucked!" - but it's a start, and I really think it's the best tactic we've got.

1. Actually, my knee-jerk response would be "of course not, do you know how long I campaigned against Prop 8!?!" But if I thought about it, that's what I'd say.

I would agree that we are lucky in that the UK is a more tolerant society than most, though we have our unfortunate share of Holocaust deniers, White Power loons and religious sectarianism to deal with. By 'look past our differences', I simply meant that they shouldn't matter. Cultural variety is something to be cherished, sure, but there are ways of doing it without drawing attention to it. Make it part of the norm. Pretty much every high street in the UK has an Indian takeaway or a Kebab shop run by someone from anywhere between Greece and Afghanistan and no one bats an eyelid. They are just part of everyday British life. But once you start banging the drum about needing to celebrate all the different cultures, you suddenly draw attention to them, like they aren't a normal part of everyday life, but are something unique or different. Most people won't even know you are gay until you start marching down the street waving a big banner telling everyone you are. And it sure as hell won't do damned thing to change the attitudes of those people who are prejudiced against you. You could take a Holocaust denier to Auschwitz and introduce them to survivors and they still won't believe you. The only thing that will have any effect is getting them when they are young and showing them that all of humanity is part of one rich tapestry. Different threads of different colours, but all still threads. Tell a kid there is a Black History Month and the first thing half of them will ask you is: 'Why isn't there a white history month? What's so special about them?' Teach them about human history as a whole and you avoid any divisions to begin with.

[ElectricPaladin]

How utterly pointless. The idea that no one is allowed to claim to not-be-racist, which is exactly what you claimed (or maybe just that Wildeybeast can't claim to be not-racist ;)), is as silly as claiming Ghandi can't claim to be non-violent because there are a lot of violent people in the world.


Not quite.

What I'm saying is that claiming to be non-racist is pointless. Say what you're going to say, do what you're going to do. Accept that people are going to judge you - you damn well know that they will - and let your actions speak for yourself.

The trouble is that prejudice is a lot less straightforward than violence. Ghandi can claim to be non-violent because... well, he's not punching anyone. However, anyone can say "I'm not racist" and then say or do something appallingly racist - and because racism is more subtle than violence, it won't be that easy to see.

"I'm not violent, but I'm going to punch you in the face right now" is a patently ridiculous statement.

"I'm not racist, but here, let's pass this bill that will change the voting laws in such a way that will make it harder for African-Americans to vote in this state" is probably ridiculous, but maybe not.

Or, for example, "I'm not racist, but I think that African Americans living in American ghettos should give their children mainstream American names to help them get jobs in the outside world."

Or "I'm not racist, but you know, most of the crime in America's ghettos is African Americans preying on each other."

What's the point of the "I'm not racist." Just spit it out. Say what you're going to say and own your opinions. If someone else questions you, explain your reasoning. Have an open mind and hope they do, too.

Let's take number 3, the thing about names. Malcolm Gladwell recently did a study that revealed that actually, your name doesn't effect your success in life (there was a funny example case about a pair of brothers named Loser and Winner whose lives were the inverse of their titles). I'd say that someone isn't a racist until they continue to mouth off about "ghetto names" in the face of evidence to the contrary. I would not say that someone is racist just for having the opinion - pre-data - that ghetto names limit your opportunities. Why shouldn't they? It makes sense, right?

Apparently, it doesn't. But ignorance of the facts is a defense, at least in my opinion.

The question I'm asking is this: what purpose does the "I'm not racist" preface serve? Does it actually have the magical function of making it impossible for people to be offended by what you say next? Are you just anxious and unwilling to own your own opinions so you feel the need to preemptively defend them? What's the point?

[MaltonNecromancer]

My question is -why?

To help prevent the innocent yet ignorant assumption that straight white men did all the cool stuff in history. They didn't. A whole lot of other stuff happened that was awesome, but because it was done by black people, gay people, women, etc... it's less well known about. That is unfair.


Do 'minority' groups really need all these special events to celebrate their culture?

Yes.

Minorities have historically been treated poorly by the majority. Do you think we should ask the jews to stop going on about the Holocaust?

White straight men are not the default. They are one socioeconomic group, yet white straight men are celebrated throughout culture well in excess of every other group - look how many films feature a straight white male as the lead, despite the fact this is not the default setting for everyone else.

Minority groups of all types are worth celebrating, because all human cultures are worth knowing about, not just the ones with y chromosomes and a pasty complexion. Surely The Doctor has taught us this if nothing else?


In this age of inclusivity

What miraculous utopia are you living in? Last I heard we still had racist attacks, religious hatred, gay bashing, and violence towards women. Just because you haven't personally experienced them or inflicted them doesn't mean they don't occur.

Prejudice isn't individual acts of cruelty. It's societal, and includes everything from limited opportunities in life, limited representation in the media, as well as more obvious things like violence.

Put another way: is violence and name-calling the most common form of bullying at your school? Or is excluding people you don't like from fun activities a way to bully them as well?

In simple terms, the latest teaching union surveys put the stats like this: 4% of bullying in schools is violent, 16% is name calling, and the rest is not letting people you don't like join in with social activities. Social exclusion is a key way we let people know we don't like them, and a key way to hurt them emotionally. Just because it doesn't seem as bad (some people even claim it's not bullying - they are wrong) doesn't mean it's not agony.

On a societal level, that's how prejudice works more often than not. We exclude minorities.

When was the last time you saw more than one disabled person on a TV show that wasn't about disabled issues or the Paralympics? Maybe one or two shows, right? Yet millions of people in the UK are disabled. They're invisible on TV.

Social exclusion in action.


surely it is better that we all treat each other as equals and ignore differences

You don't actually seem to have realised: that's what Black History Month is all about. Treating everyone as equals means actually looking at every culture's history, and the simple truth is that black history is separate to white history because that's how our slave-owning, lynch-happy ancestors liked it. As to that feeling you're experiencing? That sense that this is somehow unfair to you? That you're somehow not part of this? That this really has nothing to do with you, so why should you care?

Imagine that was how you usually felt.

That's you putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Now, I don't think you're racist. I just don't think you've had much experience of the world and its peoples, and I don't think you've read enough to compensate. If you had, you wouldn't have posted this thread.

Bottom line: Black History Month is an imperfect tool to deal with the fact the world is a grotesquely unfair place where people are treated like garbage by society because they had the "misfortune" to not be born straight, white and male.

Look up male privilege. (here's a good place to start: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/) Start to educate yourself about the way the world actually works - how unfair, and unjust, and pointlessly cruel it is. Black History Month may well be arbitrary and feel like an exercise in political correctness. However, it's better than there not being a Black History Month, because otherwise minority history simply wouldn't be celebrated at all outside of minority communities, and that's wrong. If you want to know why, just answer me this:

Why do we teach the Holocaust to non-Jews?

[Wildeybeast]

The question I'm asking is this: what purpose does the "I'm not racist" preface serve? Does it actually have the magical function of making it impossible for people to be offended by what you say next? Are you just anxious and unwilling to own your own opinions so you feel the need to preemptively defend them? What's the point?

I'd hope I covered that in my last post, I'm guessing you were writing this when my post hit.


To help prevent the innocent yet ignorant assumption that straight white men did all the cool stuff in history. They didn't. A whole lot of other stuff happened that was awesome, but because it was done by black people, gay people, women, etc... it's less well known about. That is unfair.

So teach it all together. Teach people about the Crimean War with Mary Seacole alongside Florence Nightingale, don't dump her out in Black History month on her own.



Minorities have historically been treated poorly by the majority. Do you think we should ask the jews to stop going on about the Holocaust?

To a certain extent, yes, because then everyone forgets about the other 5 million odd Slavs, Communists, gays, disabled and other assorted minorities that the ****s sent to the death camps. I teach people about what happened and why it was allowed to happen. Who it happened to is less important because it's happened to some many different people across the world throughout history. What's important is we make kids understand that the act was evil and how they can prevent it from happening again.


White straight men are not the default. They are one socioeconomic group, yet white straight men are celebrated throughout culture well in excess of every other group - look how many films feature a straight white male as the lead, despite the fact this is not the default setting for everyone else.

Bollywood makes far more films in year than Hollywood, though not many of them have non-Indian leads. Is this wrong? The Afghani film industry is making a strong revival (despite horrific persecution from the Taliban). Should they be hiring more NATO soldiers then? You want the French film industry to start hiring some Filipinos and filming in German? This comment is just silly, it's just like the whole 'why doesn't GW paint their men black' debate again. People who makes work of art represent people in way which resonates most strongly with them and their audience.


Minority groups of all types are worth celebrating, because all human cultures are worth knowing about, not just the ones with y chromosomes and a pasty complexion. Surely The Doctor has taught us this if nothing else?

This would be the Doctor Who which is famed for it's over-abundance of non-White, non-British characters right? Way to contradict yourself.



In simple terms, the latest teaching union surveys put the stats like this: 4% of bullying in schools is violent, 16% is name calling, and the rest is not letting people you don't like join in with social activities. Social exclusion is a key way we let people know we don't like them, and a key way to hurt them emotionally. Just because it doesn't seem as bad (some people even claim it's not bullying - they are wrong) doesn't mean it's not agony.

Not all social exclusion is bullying or prejudice. There is difference between not letting little Jonny play with you because he's black and not letting him play with you because he's an obnoxious arse. Content of your character, judged by your actions and all that.




You don't actually seem to have realised: that's what Black History Month is all about. Treating everyone as equals means actually looking at every culture's history, and the simple truth is that black history is separate to white history because that's how our slave-owning, lynch-happy ancestors liked it.

And so the best way to rectify this is to keep them separate rather than teaching people about it as part of human history???


As to that feeling you're experiencing? That sense that this is somehow unfair to you? That you're somehow not part of this? That this really has nothing to do with you, so why should you care?

What feeling would that be? I'm not aware that any point I said I felt it was exclusive to me. I said I didn't feel it was the best way to address the issue of divisions in society.


Now, I don't think you're racist. I just don't think you've had much experience of the world and its peoples, and I don't think you've read enough to compensate. If you had, you wouldn't have posted this thread.

Look up male privilege. (here's a good place to start: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/) Start to educate yourself about the way the world actually works - how unfair, and unjust, and pointlessly cruel it is. Black History Month may well be arbitrary and feel like an exercise in political correctness. However, it's better than there not being a Black History Month, because otherwise minority history simply wouldn't be celebrated at all outside of minority communities, and that's wrong. If you want to know why, just answer me this:

Why do we teach the Holocaust to non-Jews?

Wow, once again someone who knows sod all about me making judgements about my life experience, education and character whilst telling me I need to be more aware of other's people's circumstances. It's almost funny. I'm not a racist, just incredibly ignorant right? I feel so much better now I have your excellent and well informed character reference. As to why we teach non-Jews about the holocaust, I think I covered that above, but I'll re-emphasise here - so we a) avoid the assumption that it was just Jews who got murdered (which you seem to have) and b) so that people recognise this can, has and is happening to people throughout the world, regardless of what 'minority' they belong to.

[Uncle Nutsy]

heh.

I love this board. It goes from a few sentences or paragraph, to a bloody thousand word essay from two people in an effort to convince the other that they're wrong.

can you people please.. GET OVER YOURSELVES?

before you start to lambast me, look at yourselves. look at how much effort you're putting into this. don't ya think you're better off putting those energies into something more beneficial for yourselves?

*shakes head*

[wittdooley]

Sweet Christ this got out of hand quickly. I'll make a few comments that address the overall discussion:

1. Good schools teach all of that history together. Simple as that. If a minority was involved In something historically important at the school I attended many moons ago, they were included as people. Not as black people or white people. And I had 3 black kids in my graduating class of 400.

2. The idea of white guilt is laid on pretty thick in the United States. In fact, it was a pretty big ploy used in th 2008 election (while I voted for Obama then, that factor had nothing to do with it). The media and all the celebrities and hipsters make a pretty concerted effort to try and make middle class white males feel bad about being born a middle class white male. I refuse to feel bad about it.

3. Specified "culture months", especially when recognized in schools, doesn't foster any togetherness: all it does is highlight difference. As a teacher, EP, I don't know how you don't recognize that from your own classroom. The first time you have a 10 year old white kid ask, "when is white history month?" Is immediately realize these initiatives fail to bring together and only further separate. Pointing out difference is all these types of months do.

[DarkLink]

Funnily, a meta-analysis of this thread illustrates one of my points.

Someone asks, why bother with black history month, when it should be taught inclusively as part of american history? It's not like history classes don't cover the fact that the bloodiest war in American history was essentially fought over slavery and the economic and political repercussions of emancipation.

The response: "If you don't appreciate black history month, then you're ignorant and you're not doing enough to combat racism, which makes you only one step better than racists themselves."

It's precisely that combative, inflammatory attitude that politically correct 'cultural celebration' seems to dredge up. The fundamental problem with racism is that we need to all start getting along. There was a time when that couldn't happen because there were widespread sociopolitical institutions barring integration, and so we needed to fight to tear those down. Now that we've done just that, we need to put the fists away and stop squaring off against each other. Politically correct apologist and reverse racism is a barrier to that.



Also, a funny little side note, I just read an article explaining that the reason for the growth in economic inequality in the early 2000s was in part due to women millionaires catching up with male millionaires, and that one of the major reasons that growth in the 50's was so much greater than it is now is because women have almost caught up to men so there is a lot less ground to be gained and thus less opportunity for growth.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

I find the notion of special history months for special ethnic groups to be problematic at some level. They seem more likely to drive up tension between groups than to instill pride amongst minorities, gender groups, etc.

[eldargal]

I'm firmly with Morgan Freeman on this one.

I have a particular dislike of '_____ history', from black to feminist. Doesn't mean I'm racist or misogynist. I actually do not believe in 'race'. There is ethnicity and there is culture.

[White Tiger88]

I'm firmly with Morgan Freeman on this one.

I have a particular dislike of '_____ history', from black to feminist. Doesn't mean I'm racist or misogynist. I actually do not believe in 'race'. There is ethnicity and there is culture.

I have to agree with you for Once.....(ya its a first) i don't know why they have "X race history month" Yet if you EVER did white History month everyone would flip out yelling "RACISSST"

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

They should do Agent History Month.

But admittedly they wouldn't get far.

[eldargal]

To clarify why I dislike the idea of '_____ history'; It is obviously perfectly legitimate to write a history of, say, black people in America. The problem comes when a writer basically say 'I'm going to write a history from a certain ideological point or with a particular agenda in mind'. Every historian has biases and an agenda and it helps if they are aware of them in order to try and minimise their impact on the quality of the work. Taking a bias and enshrining it as central to that work seems inexplicable to me and an almost guarantee that the quality of scholarship will be compromised.

There is a world of difference, in my opinion, between:
A Black History of Britain
A Feminist History of Britain
A Homosexual History of Britain
etc. and:
A History of Blacks in Britain
A History of Women/Feminism in Britain
A History of Homosexuality in Britain
Obviously this is a shallow comparison where one assumes the content of the article would match the tone of the title, it needn't, but I hope it illutrates what I'm saying.

I want historians that I read to attempt to minnimise the bias, ideological or otherwise, in their work in order to be as close to impartial as they possibly can be. '_____ history' is almost diametrically opposed to that, almost enshrining bias in the work.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Day 1 of known Agent history
A stranger appears amongst a crowd staring at a flaming building, one woman is crying about a baby, he runs into said building and retrieves baby.

HE IS VICTORIOUS.

[eldargal]

Here is an article from telegraph online - Malty don't laugh. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/9597072/Balls-to-femininity-start-shouting-Julia-Gillard-style.html
I hate that article, it falls into the common trap of conflating 'feminine' with 'weak'. I am very feminine, but I will rip your balls off and feed them to you if you treat me in a sexist fashion. If you conflate femininity with weakness by extension you conflate masculinity with strength and all you are doing is feeding into the perception that women have to stop being women in order to be 'equal'. I will not dress like a man or act like a man in order to be treated equally. I will be treated equally regardless.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I wouldn't dare piss you off. O_O

That would be bads.

[White Tiger88]

They should do Agent History Month.

But admittedly they wouldn't get far.

Agents always die first in movies........So day 1 is as far as you will get :3


I wouldn't dare piss you off. O_O

That would be bads.


After reading her post about ripping off balls... i agree.

[Deadlift]

You know what I find a bit disappointing, that some of the posters in this thread think minority's shouldn't celebrate what they are, because it breeds segregation. That we're all under the same banner of "humanity" and that should be enough.

The truth is, we're not all the same and we should never try to be. I don't know much about these x history months but the original post also said something along the lines of " do we need gay pride marches and Caribbean parades. I don't see why not.

It's great we have so many educators on the forums that teach about history and all but I am also a little surprised that so many feel its unimportant and damaging for minority's to celebrate who they are and where they come from.

[eldargal]

It isn't about minorities not celebrating, rather I think it is the idea that by lumping 'black history' into one month is condescening. Why should there be 'black history' month when as Morgan Freeman points out 'black history' is the history of America.

Even Gay Pride marches can be problematic. I have quite a few gay friends and they hate them because they feel they promote the 'vulgar flamboyant' stereotype of homosexuality instead of illustrating that homosexuals are just regular people with different tastes in partner. There are others who see them as havingb een important once but have outlives their usefullness. No doubt there are still many who view them as absolutely vital.

[Gotthammer]

Deadlift has the right of it. These months aren't just about history, there about celebrating who we are and the struggles we've had and still have, and trying to educate people on them (ideally).

Labels are what we give ourselves to make sense of how we fit into the world. Saying we don't need them would be fine, except that if you're struggling to make sense of the thoughts in your head and there is no way to define it, is a horrible, painful experience. Being able to put into words the pain you've felt your whole life by saying "I am X", and know that you are not alone is immeasurably important.
The best example I can think of is that immediate kinship we gamers feel when we find someone else plays 40k. Just saying "I play 40k" gives us an immediate understanding if each other.

As a question, how many people saying they don't get it here are non-white heterosexual and cis-sexual?
To say we're living in a post race/gender/sexuality society is foolish. People are still discriminated against on their race, anti-gay hate crimes are still happening and transwomen in car crashes are left to bleed to death by paramedics (look up Tyra Hunter).
When you live every day knowing this reality, you might not be so quick to dismiss people's desire to have their stories heard.

[DarkLink]

The implication that minorities are somehow unusual and incapable such that we have to take special effort to even recognize them is insulting to them. Not only are you implicitly giving the finger to whites (why isn't there a white history month, we've had our fingers in just about everything over the last five or six hundred years?), but you're really also giving minorities a backhanded compliment. Minorities are as much a part of America as any white person is.

And from an academic standpoint, if our schools are failing to teach a broad view of our history, nominating a random month for the History Channel to run a few extra specials is not going to cut it. Race has been a major issue for a very long time in America, and it had better creep its way into history classes on a regular basis. That makes the X history months either fruitless or redundant.

[Gotthammer]

Well without special efforts most minorities aren't recognised at the moment so...

There doesn't need to be a white history month because every month is white history month unless you specify otherwise. And it's not just literal involvement in historical events, but also the cultural history.
There does need to be a change, but without a time to point out "hey, there's a problem here" the change.will never happen.

[Psychosplodge]

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out I'm not prejudiced, I hate everyone, personally I think you can spend a life time studying your own culture and never know everything.
I think Wildey is right EP you can't tell him what he is and isn't, even if he uses language you personally thought was prejudiced, it's merely semantics and you can't know his intent
@Deadlift, crass jokes are the last preserve of freedom, possibly.
@EP do you think your friends might not be a little oversensitive? Unless your brother set out to offend deliberately.

[Denzark]

@ EG I like your Morgan Freeman quote.

Also, I see what you are saying with the article - although I thought it was more in the line of 'Ugly Birds can succeed too' than 'feminine = weak'.

But the important piece for me was the para I referenced - if x group keeps treating y group condescendingly and singling them out for special treatment, it highlights and propogates the isolation of said group.

I had a letter published once in Janes Police Review when, after receiving a copy of the British Association of Women in Policing Magazine, I wrote offering the chance for members of the British Association of Men in Policing, to send me their publication in the interests of equality. Obiously there is no such organsiation.

I then went on to say positive discrimination (US= Affirmative Action) of any sort is as bad as discrimination and simply perpetuates a culture whereby group x are seen as unable to achieve on their own merits.

A black history month without a white history month is morally bankrupt as a contributor to equality.

[eldargal]

Well Morgan Freeman is non-white and he doesn't get it.:p My issue with it isn't so much the motives behind it but whether or not taking one ethnicities history for once month and looking at it in isolation is really better than integrating it properly into the curriculum in school and/or mainstream culture where applicable. The same applies to LGBT pride things, there is a lot of literature being written on the subject of how they are counter-productive/have outlived their usefullness and it is time to move past the 'loud & proud' stuff and attempt to tackle the issues facing LGBT people more seriously.

For me the issue isn't about stopping minorities from celebrating who they are and helping them combat discrimination, but how to do that effectively. I really don't think taking one aspect of a nations history (African Americans for example) and giving them a month in isolation is a satisfactory way of teaching black history when it needs to be integrated into the history of the nation as a whole. That way it is given context and the horrific conditions African Americans have been subejcted to can be juxtaposed against the comparatively comfortable conditions most whites enjoyed over the past two hundred years.

Deadlift has the right of it. These months aren't just about history, there about celebrating who we are and the struggles we've had and still have, and trying to educate people on them (ideally).

Labels are what we give ourselves to make sense of how we fit into the world. Saying we don't need them would be fine, except that if you're struggling to make sense of the thoughts in your head and there is no way to define it, is a horrible, painful experience. Being able to put into words the pain you've felt your whole life by saying "I am X", and know that you are not alone is immeasurably important.
The best example I can think of is that immediate kinship we gamers feel when we find someone else plays 40k. Just saying "I play 40k" gives us an immediate understanding if each other.

As a question, how many people saying they don't get it here are non-white heterosexual and cis-sexual?
To say we're living in a post race/gender/sexuality society is foolish. People are still discriminated against on their race, anti-gay hate crimes are still happening and transwomen in car crashes are left to bleed to death by paramedics (look up Tyra Hunter).
When you live every day knowing this reality, you might not be so quick to dismiss people's desire to have their stories heard.

[wittdooley]

I really don't think taking one aspect of a nations history (African Americans for example) and giving them a month in isolation is a satisfactory way of teaching black history when it needs to be integrated into the history of the nation as a whole. That way it is given context and the horrific conditions African Americans have been subejcted to can be juxtaposed against the comparatively comfortable conditions most whites enjoyed over the past two hundred years.

Again, this is where I sit, and 'good' schools in the US should be (and already are) doing this. Singling it out only makes to engender more difference. I don't think anyone is saying race isn't an issue; it clearly is in the US. But creating arbitrary Hispanic Heritage Month or Black History month is, like a few of you have already intimated, insulting and counter-productive.

Also, @EG --> I'm just going to be blunt. When you get all aggresive-feminine, it's kinda hot. Immediately leads me to think things I probably shouldn't. Just sayin :P

[Sean_OBrien]

Also, I see what you are saying with the article - although I thought it was more in the line of 'Ugly Birds can succeed too' than 'feminine = weak'.

I read it as a bit of a feminista manifesto - particularly because of the illustrative story at the end. No one in their right would assume that because a guy offers to pump gas or hold a door for a woman that they are attempting to keep them barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, though that is the moral of the story as the author was "embarrassed" to say she didn't object when her bo at the time did pump the gas for her. There is a difference between condescending behavior and courteous tradition...and they tend to not be able to grasp as much.


A black history month without a white history month is morally bankrupt as a contributor to equality.

Even beyond that - if you were to assume that they were valid, it makes "lesser" minority groups feel inferior. As an employer I get a pile of literature constantly as a part normal business from the different equality groups. Right now we have a month for blacks, a month for women, a month for Asian/Pacific Americans - though they have to share their month with old people. We have a "Pride" month which is doubled up with the Caribbean month, a Hispanic month, a disabled month and a Native American month. Looking at the calender, we are in the disabled month right now in the US.

However, what makes one group particularly more important than another to deserve its own group carved out from the rest? Why should blacks have their own month but Chinese be lumped in with Japanese and Samoan? Are Puerto Ricans Hispanic or Caribbean? Why the hate towards Brazilians? They get disqualified under the legal definition of Hispanic here since they don't speak Spanish. Aren't groups like Jews, Romanis, Desis or one of the various other ethnic groups down trodden enough to need their own month...or perhaps they just haven't done anything noteworthy? ;)


Well without special efforts most minorities aren't recognised at the moment so...

Thought that was sort of the point of it all...


There doesn't need to be a white history month because every month is white history month unless you specify otherwise. And it's not just literal involvement in historical events, but also the cultural history.

Poppy ****.

That discounts actual history in favor of a white washed version which likes to pretend that there weren't hardships for everyone. Notice my forum handle? Read up a bit. Throughout the 1800s there was broad sentiment both in Europe and the US which actively discriminated against Irish and Irish immigrants. You find history of discrimination and even slavery when you look at history in general. Italian and German immigrants had similar problems when they first got off the boat here. Take any particular adjective and attach it to discrimination and you will find a whole host of stories and articles which document the subjects.

Discrimination isn't something which is particularly novel or limited to those who have dark skin - it also isn't something which is generally solved by making people more different than others.

[Psychosplodge]

Not another downtrodden Irish-american....:rolleyes:

Fair enough you come closer than most with the name, but if everyone in the US who claims Irish descent was of Irish descent there'd be no one left in Ireland.

[eldargal]

I get that a lot actually. After mangling a boy who felt me up at a club some of my male acquaintances described it as both terrible and arousing.:rolleyes: Boys are odd.

Sean O'Brien does make a good point about 'white' discrimination, many nationalities we would now think of as 'white' were still being discriminated against by other people we would consider 'white' up until quite recently. Even very recently, look at how the Polish working migrants were being treated by the media here in Britain. There was also some criticism of some recentl installations at the Museum of London for whitewashing/ignoring the conditions and struggles of white, working class Londoners in the 50s and 60s in favour of focusing on more recent ethnic groups in what was supposed to be an exhibition about Londons working class in general.

[Psychosplodge]

I get that a lot actually. After mangling a boy who felt me up at a club some of my male acquaintances described it as both terrible and arousing.:rolleyes: Boys are odd.

Don't the french call it the Vice Anglais? or something similar?;)

[eldargal]

I don't think it was le vice anglais (homosexuality) for all of them, given that some were dating some of my female friends at the time.:p

[Psychosplodge]

I thought the vice anglais was being spanked (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3560343/My-time-with-the-hard-rump-of-the-spanking-community.html)?(more widely sadomasochism)

[Sean_OBrien]

Not another downtrodden Irish-american....:rolleyes:

Fair enough you come closer than most with the name, but if everyone in the US who claims Irish descent was of Irish descent there'd be no one left in Ireland.

36,000,000 in the last census with another 3,500,000 Scotch-Irish on top of that. Compare that to 6,000,000 or so in Ireland itself.

Don't claim to be downtrodden though, however I do laugh whenever anyone attempts to guilt me into anything because I am white. The left side of my family came over right after the Civil war. The right side of my family came over for the most part just prior to WWI. Neither bit had slaves or took land from Indians or any other bit that evil white people do. Both bits were on the receiving end of abuses and managed to survive well enough on their own despite conditions on the ground.

[eldargal]

I was always told it referred to homosexuality, given it was rather in vogue amongst the English upper class who were the ones the French encountered until the availability of cheap travel.

[Psychosplodge]

Is Scotch-Irish the US term for protestant Irish?

@EG included a link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3560343/My-time-with-the-hard-rump-of-the-spanking-community.html)in the last post, if you type it into google it's generally dom/sub stuff...

[Sean_OBrien]

WTF is Scotch-Irish? Is that the US term for protestant Irish?

Heck if I know - just happened to be a chunk in the Census report I snagged the number from. I tend to just call myself whitey except in the rare instances that I feel a need to remind people that whitey didn't always have things handed to him on a silver platter.

Though if I really felt the need to play the whole "Hearts and Flowers" on the violin I would also break out that my German great grandpa who got off the boat shortly before WWI was thrown in a camp in Utah by Woodrow Wilson because he couldn't read English yet and failed to register as a German Alien. However, I tend to hold that card for the big arguments.

[Psychosplodge]

It's always nice to have an ace up your sleeve...

[Gotthammer]

@ EG - my point was not that these months are necessary, but that there's a big difference between saying "I think that I don't need this anymore" and being told "I think that you don't need this anymore", especially when being told what is and isn't good for you by a majority who have a long history of doing pretty crappy things to your group 'for your own good'.

That's why I've not commented on Black History Month specifically - I'm neither from the USA, so can't judge the context of it fully nor am I a racial minority, so it's not for me to say the appropriateness of that specific concept. Having more history / alternate cultures and lifestyles taught in schools would be great, and I agree would remove any necessity for these months - but they aren't, so it doesn't. What happens between when we get rid of any attention payed to minorites and this catchup? Will the catchup even happen without some impetus behind it?


For those of you who say that it creates isolation of certain groups - some of us are already very isolated, and it won't change any time soon.

[Wildeybeast]

Glad to see there are few people who agree with me on this one.


@ EG - my point was not that these months are necessary, but that there's a big difference between saying "I think that I don't need this anymore" and being told "I think that you don't need this anymore", especially when being told what is and isn't good for you by a majority who have a long history of doing pretty crappy things to your group 'for your own good'.

That's why I've not commented on Black History Month specifically - I'm neither from the USA, so can't judge the context of it fully nor am I a racial minority, so it's not for me to say the appropriateness of that specific concept. Having more history / alternate cultures and lifestyles taught in schools would be great, and I agree would remove any necessity for these months - but they aren't, so it doesn't. What happens between when we get rid of any attention payed to minorites and this catchup? Will the catchup even happen without some impetus behind it?


For those of you who say that it creates isolation of certain groups - some of us are already very isolated, and it won't change any time soon.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that people don't need them any more, I'm not in position to tell any one what they do and don't need to do (unless they are children under my charge of course, then I can tell exactly what to do :p). My apologies if it came across like that. My point is that I feel these events are counter-productive. They set out to raise awareness of minorities in the hope of creating a more tolerant and inclusive society, but IMO all they do is serve to highlight differences. For me it all comes down to MF's point -stop calling people black, gay, Jewish, whatever and just refer to them as people. Young kids simply don't notice the difference between people beyond physical ones, and even then they don't care. No child is born racist, sexist etc etc, these ideas get imposed on them by adults. Most schools in this country do this pretty well, the problem we have comes from prejudiced parents who fill their heads full of crap. I can tell them till I'm blue in the face, but a child will always do what a parent tells it over a teacher. How we deal with these crappy parents, I don't know. I just don't see 'minority cultural celebration of the week' doing anything to change the minds of these adults.

[Sean_OBrien]

For me it all comes down to MF's point -stop calling people black, gay, Jewish, whatever and just refer to them as people.

While I agree in principal - I refuse to agree on the basis of it not being possible.

When I am talking to someone or writing some form of communication, if I refer to a person - descriptive terms are needed. People work by cataloging and cross referencing thousands of different points of data within their heads every day, and part of that happens to include ethnicity and background. If I say I was working out with my friend Peter last week and he ended up jumping in fear of a small spider that was crawling across the weight bench...that is one story. However, if I include the fact that he is a big black guy - you have an entirely different picture in your mind of the situation. When I say he is a really big black guy who makes Apollo Creed look like a girly man, you have an even more detailed picture in your mind which furthers the communication and provides context to why the situation was so funny.

Some of those statements could be construed as hatefully (especially the girly man bit), however they are an important part of communication and painting pictures with words. I could go through and do it strictly with words that are not tied to a particular ethnic group or other stereotypical category - however we have gleaned information through pop culture and what not that allows us to read or hear words which allow us to reference certain understandings of the world around us.

In the same way - I have some friends who happen to be gay...and I have others who I refer to as gay friends. The difference is important as the ones who I refer to as gay friends are stereotypically gay, and saying they are gay friends provides context for the stories which are being told. With others, they might be Southern Country boys who happen to be gay or whatever the particular stereotypical category happens to be.

When I talk about myself, I generally refer to myself within the context of my Midwestern Farmboy background. It is the stereotype which I most fit into, even though I don't live in the Midwest anymore (and haven't for over 25 years) and I haven't worked on a proper farm in that long as well. While I might have been over educated and be wearing an Italian suit while pitching my companies services to a multinational corporation - I am still that same farmboy, and if you were to picture the stereotypical farmboy and farmboy attitudes from pop culture, you would likely have a good idea of who I am.

It isn't something to run from or pretend like it doesn't exist within people. Except it and move on...or don't, just don't expect to force a change down the throat of thousands of years of evolution which man spent learning how to categorize things in order to figure out how to survive through the various ice ages, floods, wars and everything else which happened. And don't expect me to pay for you trying to do so.

[Gotthammer]

How we deal with these crappy parents, I don't know.

Taser to the balls?

-

On labels, they are important - I mentioned it before but I'm going to just copypasta someone else here who said it better (it's a bit of a sarcastic post, but I don't mean it as such):

"Most people who complain about “why do we all need labels!? Can’t we just be PEOPLE?!” have likely never felt the flood of relief that there is a WORD FOR WHAT YOU ARE after spending years wondering if you were broken, what was wrong with you, feeling ridiculously isolated and having other people complain about things you can’t change about yourself. If there’s a word for it, that makes it a real thing.

Knowing that I am real, that I am not alone, has done so much more for me than this idea that homogenizing everyone by refusing to recognize our differences is supposed to. I felt invisible and/or mocked for most of my life by people who thought we should all just be “people.” Why in the world would anyone think that could be a good thing for me now?"

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

*eye twitches*

[Wildeybeast]

While I agree in principal - I refuse to agree on the basis of it not being possible.

When I am talking to someone or writing some form of communication, if I refer to a person - descriptive terms are needed. People work by cataloging and cross referencing thousands of different points of data within their heads every day, and part of that happens to include ethnicity and background. If I say I was working out with my friend Peter last week and he ended up jumping in fear of a small spider that was crawling across the weight bench...that is one story. However, if I include the fact that he is a big black guy - you have an entirely different picture in your mind of the situation. When I say he is a really big black guy who makes Apollo Creed look like a girly man, you have an even more detailed picture in your mind which furthers the communication and provides context to why the situation was so funny.

Some of those statements could be construed as hatefully (especially the girly man bit), however they are an important part of communication and painting pictures with words. I could go through and do it strictly with words that are not tied to a particular ethnic group or other stereotypical category - however we have gleaned information through pop culture and what not that allows us to read or hear words which allow us to reference certain understandings of the world around us.

In the same way - I have some friends who happen to be gay...and I have others who I refer to as gay friends. The difference is important as the ones who I refer to as gay friends are stereotypically gay, and saying they are gay friends provides context for the stories which are being told. With others, they might be Southern Country boys who happen to be gay or whatever the particular stereotypical category happens to be.

When I talk about myself, I generally refer to myself within the context of my Midwestern Farmboy background. It is the stereotype which I most fit into, even though I don't live in the Midwest anymore (and haven't for over 25 years) and I haven't worked on a proper farm in that long as well. While I might have been over educated and be wearing an Italian suit while pitching my companies services to a multinational corporation - I am still that same farmboy, and if you were to picture the stereotypical farmboy and farmboy attitudes from pop culture, you would likely have a good idea of who I am.

It isn't something to run from or pretend like it doesn't exist within people. Except it and move on...or don't, just don't expect to force a change down the throat of thousands of years of evolution which man spent learning how to categorize things in order to figure out how to survive through the various ice ages, floods, wars and everything else which happened. And don't expect me to pay for you trying to do so.

I disagree entirely. Why is the colour of your friend Peter in any way relevant to the story? It adds nothing to the story. The fact is he big tough looking guy acting like a squealing child is all that is relevant to that example, whether he is white, black or has an upside down face is entirely irrelevant. Using labels for people like your 'stereotypically gay' friends does nothing beyond reinforce that stereotype and label all gay people in the same way. This is just as divisive as trying to parcel people out into 'minority cultural event of the week' groups.



On labels, they are important - I mentioned it before but I'm going to just copypasta someone else here who said it better (it's a bit of a sarcastic post, but I don't mean it as such):

"Most people who complain about “why do we all need labels!? Can’t we just be PEOPLE?!” have likely never felt the flood of relief that there is a WORD FOR WHAT YOU ARE after spending years wondering if you were broken, what was wrong with you, feeling ridiculously isolated and having other people complain about things you can’t change about yourself. If there’s a word for it, that makes it a real thing.

Knowing that I am real, that I am not alone, has done so much more for me than this idea that homogenizing everyone by refusing to recognize our differences is supposed to. I felt invisible and/or mocked for most of my life by people who thought we should all just be “people.” Why in the world would anyone think that could be a good thing for me now?"

No I haven't been in that position, no idea what it would be like, I imagine it's pretty crap. But take umbrage at the suggestion it's people like me that have made your life crap, it's people who don't want you to be the way are who have done that, not people who acknowledge & respect your differences but recognise that despite the differences, you are the same as me and they really don't matter because who you are goes beyond that.

[DarkLink]

Again, this is where I sit, and 'good' schools in the US should be (and already are) doing this.P

Right, and in places where education fails that's a matter for the education officials to handle, because the fundamental problem is that the schools aren't doing their jobs and not that we're not being politically correct enough.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

And now that I no longer desire to kill someone, here's a picture of an Owl.

http://www.maniacworld.com/happy-owl.jpg

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhh!

[Wildeybeast]

And now that I no longer desire to kill someone, here's a picture of an Owl.

http://www.maniacworld.com/happy-owl.jpg

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhhhh!

Why would you want to kill people. And why would a picture of one of nature's better predators relieve that urge?

[eldargal]

Fair enough, but I don't think anyone is saying 'let's take this away from them'. For me personally it is very much an issue of 'We should be working with them to get something better'. I certainly agree it is important to let minorities/sub-groups/cultures etc full opportunity to celebrate who they are, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss how to improve it further.:)

My main issue in fact isn't with 'black history month' but with 'Black History' or indeed any '_____ History' because it tends to invite bias and do more harm than good, it wasn't really part of the issue here and I probably confused things by raising it.

@ EG - my point was not that these months are necessary, but that there's a big difference between saying "I think that I don't need this anymore" and being told "I think that you don't need this anymore", especially when being told what is and isn't good for you by a majority who have a long history of doing pretty crappy things to your group 'for your own good'.

That's why I've not commented on Black History Month specifically - I'm neither from the USA, so can't judge the context of it fully nor am I a racial minority, so it's not for me to say the appropriateness of that specific concept. Having more history / alternate cultures and lifestyles taught in schools would be great, and I agree would remove any necessity for these months - but they aren't, so it doesn't. What happens between when we get rid of any attention payed to minorites and this catchup? Will the catchup even happen without some impetus behind it?


For those of you who say that it creates isolation of certain groups - some of us are already very isolated, and it won't change any time soon.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Why would you want to kill people. And why would a picture of one of nature's better predators relieve that urge?

Because I'm a World Eater.
Also, how cute is that owl?


My main issue in fact isn't with 'black history month' but with 'Black History' or indeed any '_____ History' because it tends to invite bias and do more harm than good, it wasn't really part of the issue here and I probably confused things by raising it.

Gods damn it woman, you made everyone confused! :p
Well, not everyone, but still.

[Gotthammer]

Wildey, I appologise if you felt I was directing that at you, it was just a good summation of the situation and I'd hoped my disclaimer was clear enough (evidently not!).
Part of the issue is that when *some* people say "we're all the same" it leads to a lack of empathy for those suffering. If people don't acknowledge differences, which does happen, it can lead to people's hurt at things being dismissed as over sensitivity as the non-difference person doesn't acknowledge any other views but "people's", which is theirs and won't have the same context behind it.
As an example if someone in a game store keeps saying "I'm going to rape you" to their opponent, if you've never experienced it it might seem harmless trash talk. If you have it could be horribly traumatic. Them saying it's just a joke doesn't make the hurt magically vanish. In the same vein someone (not you specifically!) saying we're all people in a discussion about minorities can come off as dismissive and condescending of legitimate issues people face.
As a personal example we may all be people, but if I lived in the USA I would be a thousand times more likely to be murdered than an average person (1:12 vs 1:18,000). When you live with things like that it can be hard to accept that you're no different than everyone else.
I do completely agree that accepting, but not judging each other's differences is a good thing :)



EldarGal, whenever we have x month or whatever here it is less "from their perspective" and more telling a detailed.look at their history/culture, so while weighted it doesn't seem any more biased than anything else so focussed. Could be, for irony's sake, a cultural difference between here and there ;)

Apologies for any textual weirdness, on my phone at work.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

More than likely.

[White Tiger88]

Because I'm a World Eater.
Also, how cute is that owl?.

Everything is cute till it starts eating your face.

Also why are people getting so worked up? Your arguing on the Internet.......

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well I have my reasons, but they are secret

[eldargal]

That is quite likely, Australia is a model example when it comes to integrating disparate groups successfully into the mainstream. Britain not so much...

EldarGal, whenever we have x month or whatever here it is less "from their perspective" and more telling a detailed.look at their history/culture, so while weighted it doesn't seem any more biased than anything else so focussed. Could be, for irony's sake, a cultural difference between here and there ;)

Apologies for any textual weirdness, on my phone at work.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well EldarGal, when the majority of our populace are degenerates who know little to nothing about self-respect and common decency...
That's right, Chavs.

If we had no Chavs, then there would be a lot less problems.

I think the Dishonored method of culling the lower class is appropriate. Namely, infect rats and let them loose on housing estates.

[White Tiger88]

Well EldarGal, when the majority of our populace are degenerates who know little to nothing about self-respect and common decency...
That's right, Chavs.

If we had no Chavs, then there would be a lot less problems.

I think the Dishonored method of culling the lower class is appropriate. Namely, infect rats and let them loose on housing estates.

And this kids is why Tzeentch is banned from the pet store, petting zoo, hospitals & daycare's. Lets cheer this thread up a bit guys! here is a joke.

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc434/Commissar_Kurt/SalaRage.jpg

NOW LAUGH AND BEHAVE YOUR SELVES!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

I already tried that with Happy Owl, no one bought it.

I OWN THE PET STORE.

[Wildeybeast]

Wildey, I appologise if you felt I was directing that at you, it was just a good summation of the situation and I'd hoped my disclaimer was clear enough (evidently not!).
Part of the issue is that when *some* people say "we're all the same" it leads to a lack of empathy for those suffering. If people don't acknowledge differences, which does happen, it can lead to people's hurt at things being dismissed as over sensitivity as the non-difference person doesn't acknowledge any other views but "people's", which is theirs and won't have the same context behind it.
As an example if someone in a game store keeps saying "I'm going to rape you" to their opponent, if you've never experienced it it might seem harmless trash talk. If you have it could be horribly traumatic. Them saying it's just a joke doesn't make the hurt magically vanish. In the same vein someone (not you specifically!) saying we're all people in a discussion about minorities can come off as dismissive and condescending of legitimate issues people face.
As a personal example we may all be people, but if I lived in the USA I would be a thousand times more likely to be murdered than an average person (1:12 vs 1:18,000). When you live with things like that it can be hard to accept that you're no different than everyone else.
I do completely agree that accepting, but not judging each other's differences is a good thing :)

Fair enough, I didn't get where you are coming from, I must read more carefully (slaps hand). The difference between recognising & respecting differences without feeling it necessary to comment on them and simply not caring or being ignorant of them must seem pretty blurry when you are on the receiving end. Using that sort of needlessly offensive language is the sort of thing which is usually thoughtlessly used by those who are ignorant of the hurt it can cause. I lose count of the number of times I have to tell kids off for calling people 'mongs' or 'gay' as a casual insult. I can see how saying 'we are all people' could be seen as dismissive. What I'm getting at is 'we are all equal as people and should treat each other as such' and that minority celebration of the week does nothing to further that goal.


That is quite likely, Australia is a model example when it comes to integrating disparate groups successfully into the mainstream. Britain not so much...

Yeah, that whole stealing Aboriginal children and forcing them into white families was a brilliant example of inclusivity. And their policy on boatloads of asylum seekers is a model of compassion. Nowhere is perfect EG.

[eldargal]

What is with you today Wildey? You've taken to spouting utter bollocks. I didn't say perfect, I said a model example. They have done it better than almost anywhere else, or would you like to compare it to pretty much anywhere in North, Central and South America were the native population was ACTIVELY exterminated by the various governments over the past five hundred years? Their current treatment of refugeed is shocking precisely because it goes against decades of inclusivity by Australia and they were oneo f hte countries that helped right the book, literally, on the proper treatment of refugeed.

[Wildeybeast]

What is with you today Wildey? You've taken to spouting utter bollocks. I didn't say perfect, I said a model example. They have done it better than almost anywhere else, or would you like to compare it to pretty much anywhere in North, Central and South America were the native population was ACTIVELY exterminated by the various governments over the past five hundred years? Their current treatment of refugeed is shocking precisely because it goes against decades of inclusivity by Australia and they were oneo f hte countries that helped right the book, literally, on the proper treatment of refugeed.

I could say the same to you :p You've made a sweeping generalisation holding up Australia as a role model of 'integrating disparate groups into the mainstream' whilst criticising the UK for failing to do so without giving a single example in either case. I pointed out that Australia has made some major failings in this regard both in the past and today, with specific examples. If you are going to make such bold claims, you need to be prepared to support them and have them challenged. My challenge is that such significant failings mean Australia is in no position to be held up as role model to anyone.

[eldargal]

It is widespread knowledge that Australia (and Canada) have had the most success at integrating various cultures into the mainstream of any western nation, but there is a huge difference between 'most successful' and 'no faults whatsoever'. No one is saying it is perfect, but they don't have the ghettos we have in Britain and France and the ethnic tension is low to non-existent according to everything I've read about the situation.

I didn't mean to be rude by the way, I'm doped up on medication and not really at my best.:(

[Wildeybeast]

It is widespread knowledge that Australia (and Canada) have had the most success at integrating various cultures into the mainstream of any western nation, but there is a huge difference between 'most successful' and 'no faults whatsoever'. No one is saying it is perfect, but they don't have the ghettos we have in Britain and France and the ethnic tension is low to non-existent according to everything I've read about the situation.

I didn't mean to be rude by the way, I'm doped up on medication and not really at my best.:(

I don't take it personally. :) And I'm not picking on you, it just happens there are a couple of issues today that I disagree with you on, I normally find myself siding with you on most things!

I'll take your word for that, but it's a different situation. Australia and Canada don't have anywhere near the population levels of Britain and France, nor the attendant demand on state resources that creates. They also have much larger landmasses to distribute people over and a far smaller amount of immigrants and asylum seekers to deal with, as well as tighter immigration controls. And whilst our segregated areas have been in part created by the state placing people in particular areas and economic factors forcing them there, there is also an element of non-Anglo Saxon communities wanting to keep to themselves (in some cases they have to or otherwise they kill each other). I'm sure there are things we can learn from lots of other countries, but not everything translates over.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Interesting... Wait a minute... Shouldn't I be taking advantage of my doped courtier?
No wait, it's that damned honour again... :p

WHY DOES NO ONE HERE CALM DOWN WHEN HAPPY OWL IS PRESENT?!?! You all suck so bad.

[Wildeybeast]

Owl's are not happy. They are one of nature's finest predators, stone cold killers. Look at them man, they can keep their head perfectly still whilst moving the rest of their body, some of them can see in the dark and they can rotate their head nearly 180%. It's only their tiny stupid bird brains which stops them ruling the world. Fear the Owl my friend, fear him.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

You clearly have never encountered Happy Owl

[Wildeybeast]

Apparently not.

[eldargal]

This is why we have cats, a failsafe against another Owl uprising. Cats > Owls.

Owl's are not happy. They are one of nature's finest predators, stone cold killers. Look at them man, they can keep their head perfectly still whilst moving the rest of their body, some of them can see in the dark and they can rotate their head nearly 180%. It's only their tiny stupid bird brains which stops them ruling the world. Fear the Owl my friend, fear him.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Still not as cool as an Assassin.

[Wildeybeast]

This is why we have cats, a failsafe against another Owl uprising. Cats > Owls.

Have you seen those Cravendale public information broadcasts??? Fear the cat too EG. Hell, half the animal kingdom is out to get us and with humanity getting progressively more stupid, it's only a matter of time before the animals get us. Assuming the machines don't get us first.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

We've got to stop the destruction of the planet. Yeah. We want trees, not factories. Hehehe. Yeah, think about it. Otherwise, the creatures of this earth will rise up and take what is rightfully theirs. Yeah, they are listening as we speak, ssshhhhhhh. They have ears. Some have ears on their knees. You know of whom I speak.

They will take us and they'll make us...

Human slaves.
In an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves
In an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves!
In an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves!
In an insect nation!

The locust squats upon the leaf,
He's just bidin' his time.
The human world that he surveys,
He thinks, "One day, all this'll be mi-i-i-i-ine!"

The spiders are not insects,
But in a war they will side
With the insects.
Traitors! Traitors! Spider traitors!
They'll betray us and they'll make us!

Where did we all go wrong?
The insects used to be our brothers.
Along came pesticide,
And on that day, our friendship died.
And pouring boiling water down ant's nests, couldn't've 'elped

We had betrayed the trust,
Of Mr Bee and Mr Locust.
Out there are some angry bugs,
And too many salted slugs.
When will the madness end?

We can find
If we look inside,
A different world,
We thought we lost
But, if we look, we're sure to find it,
In the place we thought it was.




It must be here
It's here somewhere.
I only put it down just now,
A kind of world
That's not unkind.
But if look, we're sure to find it.

There it is!
No that's not it.
The one behind,
The green one down the back.
No, the red one, the red one!
Pick it up and spin it round.
Keep going mate! A bit further!

Then I know that I'll be free,
Cos I'll have found the insect in me.
The insect in me!

What about the worms, eh?
Eyeing up your car, yeah.
Thinking they're gonna be driving that one day! Yeah! Imagine that, worms driving your car!
Giving lifts to other worms!
Taking them up the shops, getting stuff!
Fiddling with your videos, messing with your lives!

What about the crabs? Forgot about them, they're all at it! We've gotta stop them! Stop them before it's too late!

What we've got to do is harness the worms!
Ride them round upon their backs!
We are superior! We are the humans! These are the facts!

Imagine the nightmare of having an insect boss.
Going into work,
"Good morning Mr Wasp!"
AAAAAAAAAAAH!

OH!
Britain! nananana!
Shout
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah- ah ah- ah!
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah- ah ah- ah!
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah- ah ah- ah!
Human slaves, in an insect na...aaa...aaaa...tion

They will take us and they'll make us...
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves, in an insect nation!
Ah-ah-ah ah-ah!
Human slaves, in an insect na...aaa...aaaa...tion

[DarkLink]

Well without special efforts most minorities aren't recognised at the moment so...

How do you define 'recognized'? Because I see involvement of minorities in the news all the time, and I can't say I've ever seen a tv show that was like 'man, look at how awesome all us white people are, ignoring everyone else', unless it was a specific example of, say, something that happened in old Europe where only whites were involved, and even then for ever show like that there's another something about minorities, or about how we used to enslave blacks and kill Native Americans and stuff. I mean, there are more white male politicians than anything else, I suppose, but that's about as racially biased as I think you can really justify in your argument and the core issue there is not that minorities aren't being 'recognized' but that they're on average in a lower economic situation.

So when you say recognized, I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for.

[Psychosplodge]

And this kids is why Tzeentch is banned from the pet store, petting zoo, hospitals & daycare's. Lets cheer this thread up a bit guys! here is a joke.

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc434/Commissar_Kurt/SalaRage.jpg

NOW LAUGH AND BEHAVE YOUR SELVES!

There's nothing not happy about culling chavs,
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3023&d=1350245336
3023


Owl's are not happy. They are one of nature's finest predators, stone cold killers. Look at them man, they can keep their head perfectly still whilst moving the rest of their body, some of them can see in the dark and they can rotate their head nearly 180%. It's only their tiny stupid bird brains which stops them ruling the world. Fear the Owl my friend, fear him.

That and the lack of opposable thumb...

[DarkLink]

Big owls eat cats. And a lack of opposable thumbs didn't stop the Velociraptors. That took an act of God.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

The next BIG thing... RATS ON THE BACK OF CATS!

[White Tiger88]

the next big thing... Rats on the back of cats!

run rat cav!

[DarkLink]

Rats, or fleas on the back of the rats? That are on the backs of the cats.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yo dawg, we heard you like vermin; so we put vermin on your vermin on your vermin, so you can look at vermin on vermin on vermin. :p

[Psychosplodge]

Big owls eat cats. And a lack of opposable thumbs didn't stop the Velociraptors. That took an act of God.
But they weren't trying to overthrow the supremacy of people, so cats/owls will need them,
and no that just took a giant piece of space rock.

[Denzark]

What about that old lady who swallowed a fly? Clearly the most devous and deadly of them all - she can actually devour whole food chains. Excet for the horse.

So Horse > Old lady > Cats > Owls > Rats > Fleas > The French.

I know the grenouille eat the cheveaux but thats a sort of world snake effect. Don't mean Nothing.

[DarkLink]

Dothraki eat horse hearts for fun. I guess that puts the Mongols at the top there.


...and no that just took a giant piece of space rock.

Really? Act of God is a fairly common phrase for crazy random events. Why do you feel the need to assume that it requires religious belief, and then shoot that belief down? It's a dick move to blatantly try to take a dump on what you perceive as other people's religious beliefs.

[Psychosplodge]

If you say so.
I just find the wording equally offensive. Suggesting that stuff is destined, pre-ordained or "your house was flooded through the act of a supreme being that had nothing better to do than visit misery and hardship on you and your neighbours" It's just a cop-out from insurers that are scrabbling for a reason not to pay out.

Freak occurrence would sum it quite accurately without treading on anyones toes.

[Wildeybeast]

If you say so.
I just find the wording equally offensive. Suggesting that stuff is destined, pre-ordained or "your house was flooded through the act of a supreme being that had nothing better to do than visit misery and hardship on you and your neighbours" It's just a cop-out from insurers that are scrabbling for a reason not to pay out.

Freak occurrence would sum it quite accurately without treading on anyones toes.

There was a true story where Billy Connelly had his boat destroyed by lightning and the insurance companies blamed it on God, so he sued God. He was in Australia for some reason. I think he won and God settled out of court. I've always assumed that was the best way to deal with these instances.

[Psychosplodge]

I've seen that,a long time ago, it's a brilliant film, was it actually about Billy Connelly or did he play the original person?

[Wildeybeast]

I think he was just playing the guy. Though it does sound like the sort of thing Billy would do.

[Psychosplodge]

It does indeed. Yeah he played the guy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268437/)

[Wildeybeast]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuits_against_God) it's all made up. That's disappointing.

[Psychosplodge]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuits_against_God) it's all made up. That's disappointing.

So it would seem. The argument made sense...

[DarkLink]

If you say so.
I just find the wording equally offensive. Suggesting that stuff is destined, pre-ordained or "your house was flooded through the act of a supreme being that had nothing better to do than visit misery and hardship on you and your neighbours" It's just a cop-out from insurers that are scrabbling for a reason not to pay out.

Freak occurrence would sum it quite accurately without treading on anyones toes.

Frankly, that's some politically correct bull****. No matter what you do, you'll tread on someone's toes. All you can do is just try and be a nice guy (and by extension not be a dick about the mere offhanded mention of a religious entity).

[Psychosplodge]

It's not politically correct.
To be fair I only said

..and no that just took a giant piece of space rock.
I didn't actually criticise, question your beliefs or religion, or act offended till after you did, you however seem far more bothered by it. If that's been a dick, maybe you're taking it a tad too seriously. You're quite entitled to your belief where that space rock came from...

[eldargal]

'Act of God' doesn't necessarily have religious overtones, a lot of people use it (myself included) as a fancier way of saying 'the damaging result of a random concatenation of circumstances'.:p

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

What if Thor pelvic thrusts a boat and blows it up?

[White Tiger88]

What if Thor pelvic thrusts a boat and blows it up?

Why...would your mind go there...i mean....WHYYYY!

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hey man, Loki did worse

[Psychosplodge]

'Act of God' doesn't necessarily have religious overtones, a lot of people use it (myself included) as a fancier way of saying 'the damaging result of a random concatenation of circumstances'.:p

:p


What if Thor pelvic thrusts a boat and blows it up?

I'd suggest he's doing it wrong, though if he prefers humping boats...


Why...would your mind go there...i mean....WHYYYY!

It's what he does.


Hey man, Loki did worse

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz1fo1A6Vd1r8esw8o1_r3_500.png

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Well apparently the Judo-Christian God likes destroying boats. :p

[Psychosplodge]

I thought he encouraged the building of boats?

[Wildeybeast]

Well apparently the Judo-Christian God likes destroying boats. :p

There's a god of Judo?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Hell yeah, Jet Li

[Wildeybeast]

So he's like Jesus, wholly human, but wholly divine. Hence why you added the Christian bit. Or is Jet Li actually Jesus?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Both.

[Phototoxin]

http://www.judaismwithoutborders.org/kungfujew18/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/jew-jitsu.jpg

That should clear up any confusion!

[eldargal]

Reminds me of this:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3102&d=1350887499

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

This thread is not safe for Jews. :p

[White Tiger88]

This thread is not safe for Jews. :p

A pork sandwich Isnt ether whats your point?

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Shush kitteh.

[White Tiger88]

Shush kitteh.

Get me some Catnip and a Beer then maybe.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

No

[White Tiger88]

No

Go back to your trippy "Tzeentch" Land <_<

[Sean_OBrien]

In related news:

http://www.americanthinker.com/video/2012/10/justice_kagan_not_sure_i_wouldve_been_president_ob amas_nominee_if_i_werent_a_woman.html

Not sure if we want to have whether or not someone sits down to pee as a qualifier as to if they make the short list for selection to the Supreme Court.