Are Space Marines Practical?

[Lord Azaghul]

Ok, So I was reading through the Space Wolf Codex yesterday, reading a fluff page here and there as I glanced at the rules, putting a thoeritical army together in my head. Then I can across one of the terminator entries talking about fighting with their battle brothers for decades even centries and I began to question the practicality of it. Not the idea of buying another army, but the practical existance of space marines, in any form, especially as they relate to say the imperial guard.

Now most of the time the imperial guard will probably not be engaged in a battle against the marines, except of course chaos. But I began to wonder if even in the empirium SM are even a practical idea; let me explain:
How long does it take to ‘grow’ a space marine, extra hearts, lungs and what not.
How long does it take to train a space marine?

How expensive is power armour to produce? It must be pretty durible, yet light enough for the SM movement to not be hindered, and still one shell for a tank, artillary line, or orbital craft, and MR. SM might as well be wearing Ork armour for all the good it will do him!

How expensive is it to produce wave after wave of rhinos and drop pods, considering that they are all practively one use only. I don’t know about you but when was the last time a rhino surivived a battle?

How are SM chapters financed and maintained?

Then my thoughts drifted over the Chaos space marines… They don’t even seem to have the resources of the imperium to draw from, after all slave labour never produces the hightest quality armament!

In my head I compared all these to the seemingly more practical application of the Guard.
How many worlds are in the imperium?
It is easier to build a russ or a land raider?

If the imperium has this great resourse of ships cruisers and men, wouldn’t that me a must more appliable solution to the problem of chaos?

Surely the training time for an average guardsmen is much shorter then that of a marine.
Its probably even cheaper to build a basilisk then raise and train a SM…
Are SM meltas any better then guard metla?

Just some thoughts. So what do you lads/lasses think, are SM practical?

[Sangre]

There is less than one Space Marine for every world in the Imperium of Man.

And yet...

they are enough.

[Nabterayl]

In general, I'm with you. The Imperium would be a lot worse off if it lost the Imperial Guard than if it lost every single space marine chapter. But that's not really a surprise. Space marines are not an army in any meaningful sense. The best military analogy for them is special forces, and even that might not be as good an analogy as roving mercenary bands or independent knightly orders.

The special forces analogy is instructive, though, in that it gives a pretty accurate idea of what space marines can and can't do. If you want to wage a war, or conquer a planet, or even conduct a pitched battle, space marines are not for you. If you want to board a ship, seize a strongpoint, or conduct a commando raid, they're your boys.

Space marines aren't useful for "big" actions for lots of reasons. One is that they're too expensive, as you said. Another is that they'll only show up if they feel like it, and only follow your battle plan if they feel like it. A third is that they'll retreat before suffering catastrophic casualties unless they have no other option.* All of these traits make them distinctly unsoldierly, and soldiers are what you need for "big" actions.

As special forces go, as long as they're willing to go along with the plan, they're great - and their gear is oriented toward this mission profile. Drop pods, jump packs, teleporter pads, and terminator armor all have obvious applications for special operations. All of their armored vehicles trade firepower and armored protection for speed and mechanical reliability (this isn't represented much on the tabletop, but space marine vehicles are significantly faster than their Imperial Guard equivalents). They don't even have any main battle tanks (the Predator Annihilator only qualifies as a tank destroyer); they barely even have any infantry fighting vehicles. Their starships, like their Land Raiders, are glorified transports.

Space marines are, in short, storm troopers plus. They're better than storm troopers, without question, but then again, storm troopers are much more reliable.

As for the economic cost, I think that's a complicated question. Space marine chapters are autonomous, so the cost to the Imperium is tricky. They do their own recruiting, their own training, and their own manufacturing; they provide their own food ... Certainly they take up resources which could, in theory, go to other sources, but the actual drain on the Imperium's resources is pretty low.


* I don't mean to suggest that every successful battle plan requires somebody to suffer catastrophic casualties. The point is that if space marines feel that casualties are sufficient to threaten the future of their chapter, they'll withdraw, because nothing is as important to them as the survival of the chapter. This means that there are some missions which they simply will not undertake, and certain parts in a battle plan that they simply will not play, neither of which are desirable traits in a military unit.

[DevilUknow]

the real question is "are space marines bad *** and grimdark?"

http://i.imagehost.org/0791/9511134_19acf7b0f3_b.jpg


and the answer is yes.

[Nabterayl]

If the imperium has this great resourse of ships cruisers and men, wouldn’t that me a must more appliable solution to the problem of chaos?

Well, yes and no. There's two threats that "the problem of Chaos" represents. One is the physical threat of the Chaos space marines, who, frankly, aren't especially threatening. When was the last time a Black Crusade even got past the Cadian Gate? The Eye of Terror may be a fabulous hiding spot, but its denizens have been successfully and pretty decisively contained for millennia.

The second threat that Chaos represents is a social one, and that's not something that either the Guard nor the space marines can effectively combat. Even the Inquisition does a pretty poor job of it. The real way to combat the social problem of Chaos is better governance, and ... I don't see that reform in that area happening in the Imperium on a large scale any time soon. :p

[warpcrafter]

Hah! You're partially right. I can't remember a battle with my chaos space marines where any rhinos survived.

[DarkLink]

The thing is, Space Marines don't relate well between the fluff and the tabletop.

In the fluff, Space Marines use their superior skills, physical abilities, equipment, and tactical abilities similarly to the Spartans at Thermopylae. Modern estimates put Persian casualties at roughly 20,000 men, killed by 300 Spartans with a little help from about 8000 other Greeks, who the Leonaidus ordered to leave when the Persians managed to flank the Greeks. It's all because the Spartans had superior equipment and training, and had the advantage of terrain.

Similarly, Space Marines really wouldn't be wandering around, fighting random groups of bad guys. They'd be smashing enemy HQ's, supply lines and vital points. Maximum application of force against key points. But they can't be everywhere. The Guard does the vast majority of the fighting, with the Marines occasionally showing up and utterly devestating everything in their path, giving the Guard a chance to advance. The Marines just jump from one conflict to the next, working in small groups depending on the situation.

Space Marines aren't the main forces of the Imperium. They are force mulitpliers. A Guard army combined with a Space Marine assault is far, far more effective than either on its own (especially since there are so few Space Marines).

[Valkerie]

How long does it take to make a Space Marine? According to an article in the Warhammer 40K Compendium, (first edition, yes, but still valid I believe), the first implants are implanted between age 10 and 14, with the last implants going in between 16 and 18 years old. In other words, if they rush, they can get all implants placed in two years, but it could take as long as eight. I think the training period would be the same length, if not longer. FYI, the article goes on to state that it takes 55 years to grow 1,000 sets of healthy organs to start a new Chapter.

[Nabterayl]

Similarly, Space Marines really wouldn't be wandering around, fighting random groups of bad guys. They'd be smashing enemy HQ's, supply lines and vital points. Maximum application of force against key points. But they can't be everywhere. The Guard does the vast majority of the fighting, with the Marines occasionally showing up and utterly devestating everything in their path, giving the Guard a chance to advance.

In other words, doing what the storm troopers already do. Would the Imperium be better off if all the resources that had ever gone into supporting space marine chapters gone into creating additional storm troopers? I'm not convinced. On the one hand, storm troopers are subject to a central command. If storm troopers are sent on a critical but suicidal mission, they say, "Yes, sir!" instead of giving you the finger and a line about how they aren't expendable assets.

On the other hand, given what the Imperium's central command looks like, there's something to be said for special forces that can do as they wish. Given the way the Guard is run, I think the current system works fairly well - if you want special forces, you ask for storm troopers, which you're a lot more likely to get than you are space marines. At the same time, if a chapter master sees something that central command hasn't picked up on yet, he has the resources and the freedom to effect a reasonably effective rapid response.

Could the whole system be improved? Absolutely. If the Imperium had a more responsive military machine, would space marines still make sense? Not necessarily. But that's getting into a different topic.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Storm Troopers cannot do what Space Marines do. Space Marines are, quite literally, the Angels of the Emperor. Their value is not just in their martial ability, but in their inspiring presence. Their are things they can do that no Stormtrooper could. And in conventional warfare they can do more with less.

[Melissia]

No, which is why there's so few of them. They're useful in small numbers, yes, but they aren't efficient enough or reliable enough (see spiky marines) for mass production.

[Nabterayl]

Storm Troopers cannot do what Space Marines do. Space Marines are, quite literally, the Angels of the Emperor. Their value is not just in their martial ability, but in their inspiring presence. Their are things they can do that no Stormtrooper could. And in conventional warfare they can do more with less.

I'll grant you the inspiring presence. I think it's ridiculous, but it's undeniably true that nobody inspires like the space marines.

As for actual operations ... I disagree. Pretty much anything a storm trooper can do, space marines can do better. There could certainly be things that the storm troopers you have available can't do, that the marines you have available can. There will be times when it makes more sense to use space marines than to use storm troopers. But in the abstract, I can't think of a single thing space marines do that storm troopers couldn't, in the abstract, do also.

[Chumbalaya]

Chainsaw Swords.

No, in other words.

Nothing is really practical in 40k, it's all one big GrimDark pit of ridiculous and awesome things. Marines and Orks stand out big time here. IG get an honorable mention for bringing an ICBM to a firefight.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I'll grant you the inspiring presence. I think it's ridiculous, but it's undeniably true that nobody inspires like the space marines.

As for actual operations ... I disagree. Pretty much anything a storm trooper can do, space marines can do better. There could certainly be things that the storm troopers you have available can't do, that the marines you have available can. There will be times when it makes more sense to use space marines than to use storm troopers. But in the abstract, I can't think of a single thing space marines do that storm troopers couldn't, in the abstract, do also.

Like fight underneath water? Or across an airless moon for more than a few hours at a time? What about guerilla warfare? What about on a world with constant volcanic activity. Rebreathers are good for breathing, but carapace armor can't take the heat. Granted what make marines so much better is their armor. So if you were arguing that Stormtroopers in power armor could possible do what space marines do, I'd concede the point. The only other organization that would be able to do those things is the SoB and they are just as ornery as Space Marines.

[eldargal]

I don't remember the exact phrasing, but some piece of fluff posits something along the line of "Space Marines are the spearhead, Imperial Guard the hammer blow. Space Marines are the SAS (the best of the best, but you don't fight large scale battles with them alone) of the Imperium, they are used to exploit weaknesses in the enemies line and open them up so the IG can pour in. They are an extremely practical fighting force when used properly.

[Melissia]

Like fight underneath water? Or across an airless moon for more than a few hours at a time? What about guerilla warfare? What about on a world with constant volcanic activity. Rebreathers are good for breathing, but carapace armor can't take the heat. Granted what make marines so much better is their armor. So if you were arguing that Stormtroopers in power armor could possible do what space marines do, I'd concede the point. The only other organization that would be able to do those things is the SoB and they are just as ornery as Space Marines.
Actually, Sisters are much more loyal to the Emperor than Space Marines are-- they also work with the Guard far more often than the Marines do, during any war which the Ecclesiarchy holds an interest (which is pretty much all of them, but there's not enough Sisters to give some to every battle).

There are bad examples of Sisters, whom are so zealous they're hard to lead. But the same could be said of Guard, and the Marines are even worse.

[Nabterayl]

So if you were arguing that Stormtroopers in power armor could possible do what space marines do, I'd concede the point. The only other organization that would be able to do those things is the SoB and they are just as ornery as Space Marines.

For guerrilla warfare, absolutely I think storm troopers are equipped for that. Storm troopers are the Imperium's equivalent of the SAS, or <insert your favored national equivalent here> (cite (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf)). Guerrilla warfare is absolutely within the purview of those organizations.

As for the hostile environments such as volcanic, airless, or submarine, what I was arguing is that the Imperium has equipment for environments like that other than power armor. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that ten storm troopers in armored space suits could do as much as ten space marines in power armor in an airless environment. Obviously it would require more storm troopers, and/or they'd have to go about the mission in a different way than marines would. But yes, you understand my basic point.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Actually, Sisters are much more loyal to the Emperor than Space Marines are-- they also work with the Guard far more often than the Marines do, during any war which the Ecclesiarchy holds an interest (which is pretty much all of them, but there's not enough Sisters to give some to every battle).

There are bad examples of Sisters, whom are so zealous they're hard to lead. But the same could be said of Guard, and the Marines are even worse.


With the Imperium in a constant state of warfare, there is no working with guard more. Thats a ridiculous assessment, like Space Marines take a 20 year break in between campaigns. The Marines are always fighting, all the time, their optempo is the highest of all Imperial Forces, the Black Templars alone NEVER STOP EVER, no SoB unit can claim that. Sisters are no more loyal to the Emperor than Space Marines, that also a ridiculous assessment, Chapters turn and so do Sisters, and if you give me that crap about on one sister turning you lose your credibility. You and I both know that the Graphic Novel in question was well done enough to make it fit into canon.


For guerrilla warfare, absolutely I think storm troopers are equipped for that. Storm troopers are the Imperium's equivalent of the SAS, or <insert your favored national equivalent here> (cite (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf)). Guerrilla warfare is absolutely within the purview of those organizations.

As for the hostile environments such as volcanic, airless, or submarine, what I was arguing is that the Imperium has equipment for environments like that other than power armor. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that ten storm troopers in armored space suits could do as much as ten space marines in power armor in an airless environment. Obviously it would require more storm troopers, and/or they'd have to go about the mission in a different way than marines would. But yes, you understand my basic point.

I should not have said guerilla warfare, I was thinking of including a Wolf Scout reference with it, but Wolf Scouts are too isolated of a case to be a good example.

[eldargal]

Stormtroopers are the elite of the IG, Space Marines the elite of the Imperium. Don't forget it is the implants which lets marines survive in hostile environments too, not just the armour. Immunity to poisonous atmospheres etc.


For guerrilla warfare, absolutely I think storm troopers are equipped for that. Storm troopers are the Imperium's equivalent of the SAS, or <insert your favored national equivalent here> (cite (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf)). Guerrilla warfare is absolutely within the purview of those organizations.

As for the hostile environments such as volcanic, airless, or submarine, what I was arguing is that the Imperium has equipment for environments like that other than power armor. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that ten storm troopers in armored space suits could do as much as ten space marines in power armor in an airless environment. Obviously it would require more storm troopers, and/or they'd have to go about the mission in a different way than marines would. But yes, you understand my basic point.

[Melissia]

With the Imperium in a constant state of warfare, there is no working with guard more. Thats a ridiculous assessment, like Space Marines take a 20 year break in between campaigns. The Marines are always fighting, all the time, their optempo is the highest of all Imperial Forces, the Black Templars alone NEVER STOP EVER, no SoB unit can claim that.
It is undeniable that Space Marines work far more independently than any other Imperial organization. And it is undeniable that Space Marines are also incredibly rare. Sisters, while independent as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, still typically work with the Guard, PDF, and citizen militias in their wars of faith. And Sisters are by most estimates more populous than Space Marines.

Therefor? Sisters work with the Guard more than the Marines. Simple logic, M2C.


Sisters are no more loyal to the Emperor than Space MarinesStop there.

Tell me, what percentage of Space Marines during the Horus Heresy turnedj to Chaos? given 18 known legions, each with easily several hundred thousands each (varying of course, but let's put it at a rough estimate of 250,000 each on average-- it's actually probably higher). Around fourty to fifty percent I would say. And that would be around 2,250,000 Marines turning against the Emperor, probably more. Since then, while entire chapters turning have been rare, it's happened, and companies, squads, or single Marines have turned more frequently. The end result, if it were calculated, would be probably around a total of anywhere from one fourth to two fifths of all Marines turning to chaos.

In comparison, the official number for Sisters is one. If you count the art you depict and even if you account the mind-controlled ones in the Cain series, that's still something less than a hundredth of a percent of all sisters having fallen to chaos.

I think a quod erat demonstrandum is called for here.

[Sitnam]

I have to agree with Mellisia, Sisters are more loyal to the Emperor then Marines. That is not to say all marines are disloyal, but the Sisters are a different breed of loyal. They give EVERYTHING to the emperor, and honor noone as as much as he. Many Space Marines honor their primarchs just as much as the emperor; you would never see sisters do that with their saints. Also, Space Marine chapters all have their own customs and rituals, a level of independance also not seen with Sisters. Sisters are raised by the religious organization of the Emperor, which makes them far more less likely to go rogue. Also, look at their relationship with the Ordo Hereticus: When the Inquisition needs especially dangerous brands of heretics, traitors, or rebels dealt with (Such as, lets say, renegade space marines), they don't call on Space Marines like they do with the Grey Knights or Death Watch. They ask for the assistance of Sisters (BOLS's minidex is a god example of this)

For the task at hand: I would definitely say SM are practical. Only about 1000 chapters averaging about 1000 men each exist. They undertake their own recruiting and maintenance. They do get some resources from the AdMech, but only because they give the use of their own marines for short period of time. Really, SM are their own little self-functioning military. They don't NEED the Adminstratum to approve of a military operation, a process that is often slow and unwieldy (See the Taros campaign). They can respond to dangerous threats quickly and efficiently. Special Forces is a bad analogy. That is the purview of the Stormtroopers. The Astartes are, like has been said before, 'the Angels of Death.' They roam the heavens, facing the greatest threats to humanity, hunting down its enemies. In dire times, when even Stormtroopers cant do the job, they descend to do battle with the greatest threats.

Thats just my take anyway lol.

[Nabterayl]

Special Forces is a bad analogy.

It's a bad analogy strategically. Tactically, I think it's a good one. Think of it this way - could 1000 marines stop neutralize an entire ork empire? The answer is yes (Charadon), but they don't do it by barging into the ork empire and slaying every greenskin they can see. They do it through a series of commando operations which leave the empire turned in on itself. That's always the preferred space marine MO. They sever supply lines, kill key enemy leaders, strike vulnerable targets from unexpected directions - in short, they behave like seven foot tall bioengineered super-commandos. They can and do give a good account of themselves in a stand-up slugfest, but pitched battle is not the way marines operate if they can help it.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

It is undeniable that Space Marines work far more independently than any other Imperial organization. And it is undeniable that Space Marines are also incredibly rare. Sisters, while independent as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, still typically work with the Guard, PDF, and citizen militias in their wars of faith. And Sisters are by most estimates more populous than Space Marines.

Therefor? Sisters work with the Guard more than the Marines. Simple logic, M2C.

I can qualify my argument as well: Space Marines, while independent, often find themselves working with Guard, PDF, and citizen militias. How many times have you read Space Marine fluff where they go in alone and how many times have you read fluff where the fought alongside guard? About as many time as I have read about the guard doing things alone. Its all relative, any time a Space Marine Chapter lends aid it is working with other elements of the Imperium. We fight on Imperial Worlds just as often as we fight on non-imperial worlds. Space Marines dont sit in the Monasteries turning down requests for aid because they are tired, they turn them down because they are helping someone else out already (with FEW exceptions). The Imperium is one faction, not many separate forces, when it goes to war it goes to war together. You just may get different flavored forces this time.



Stop there.

Tell me, what percentage of Space Marines during the Horus Heresy turnedj to Chaos? given 18 known legions, each with easily several hundred thousands each (varying of course, but let's put it at a rough estimate of 250,000 each on average-- it's actually probably higher). Around fourty to fifty percent I would say. And that would be around 2,250,000 Marines turning against the Emperor, probably more. Since then, while entire chapters turning have been rare, it's happened, and companies, squads, or single Marines have turned more frequently. The end result, if it were calculated, would be probably around a total of anywhere from one fourth to two fifths of all Marines turning to chaos.

In comparison, the official number for Sisters is one. If you count the art you depict and even if you account the mind-controlled ones in the Cain series, that's still something less than a hundredth of a percent of all sisters having fallen to chaos.

I think a quod erat demonstrandum is called for here.

Hmm, weren't the Sisters found by an insane usurper of the Emperors realm? Didn't they prosecute Wars of Faith against the Emperor's real followers? Didn't it take a face to face with the Emperor to show them they were actually fighting against him? We all have troubled histories. The sisters started out disloyal, at least the Space Marine built the realm before tearing it down, the sisters just started off tearing it down. The Sisters have also never had the benefit of being led by one of the 20 pinnacles of creation like Space Marines were. Or do you really think if Alicia had sat their and said: 'Screw it Vandire's got all the power, I'm sticking with him' the other Daughters wouldn't have gone with her as well, or at least their would have been a little mini Isstvan with the DotE vs. Traitor DotE inside the walls of the palace. Don't try to tell me that you really think that every Legionnaire was down with Chaos worship, you and I both know they followed their Primarchs BECAUSE IT WAS BRED INTO THEIR MIND. Only those of supreme faith stayed, like if Alicia had turned, only those of supreme faith would have stayed. Sisters arn;t so different from Marines, they just had the benefit of the Emperor explaining to them they were actually wrong, Marines didn't get that.

[eldargal]

In a word, no. The Daughters of the Emperor predated the Vandire rebellion, but were tricked by him into thinking he was blessed by the emperor and renamed Brides of the Emperor.The whole time they served Vandire they believed he was serving the Emperor, they were never trying to 'tear it down'. When they were shown the truth they killed him and were disbanded, being reformed into the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas itself never served Vandire. Hardly the same thing as betraying your father and starting a civil war.




Hmm, weren't the Sisters found by an insane usurper of the Emperors realm? Didn't they prosecute Wars of Faith against the Emperor's real followers? Didn't it take a face to face with the Emperor to show them they were actually fighting against him? We all have troubled histories. The sisters started out disloyal, at least the Space Marine built the realm before tearing it down, the sisters just started off tearing it down. The Sisters have also never had the benefit of being led by one of the 20 pinnacles of creation like Space Marines were. Or do you really think if Alicia had sat their and said: 'Screw it Vandire's got all the power, I'm sticking with him' the other Daughters wouldn't have gone with her as well, or at least their would have been a little mini Isstvan with the DotE vs. Traitor DotE inside the walls of the palace. Don't try to tell me that you really think that every Legionnaire was down with Chaos worship, you and I both know they followed their Primarchs BECAUSE IT WAS BRED INTO THEIR MIND. Only those of supreme faith stayed, like if Alicia had turned, only those of supreme faith would have stayed. Sisters arn;t so different from Marines, they just had the benefit of the Emperor explaining to them they were actually wrong, Marines didn't get that.

[Sitnam]

It's a bad analogy strategically. Tactically, I think it's a good one. Think of it this way - could 1000 marines stop neutralize an entire ork empire? The answer is yes (Charadon), but they don't do it by barging into the ork empire and slaying every greenskin they can see. They do it through a series of commando operations which leave the empire turned in on itself. That's always the preferred space marine MO. They sever supply lines, kill key enemy leaders, strike vulnerable targets from unexpected directions - in short, they behave like seven foot tall bioengineered super-commandos. They can and do give a good account of themselves in a stand-up slugfest, but pitched battle is not the way marines operate if they can help it.

Oh, im not saying that they don't fit the role tactically. Their simply something more then space versions of Army Rangers or Spetznaz. Their angels combiend with green berets

[Marshal2Crusaders]

In a word, no. The Daughters of the Emperor predated the Vandire rebellion. but were tricked by him into thinking he was blessed by the emperor and renamed Brides of the Emperor. When they were shown the truth they killed him and were disbanded, being reformed into the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas itself never served Vandire. Hardly the same thing as betraying your father and starting a civil war.

So all the Legions turned because they were bad men, not because their Godlike Leaders, the likes of which are unfathomable to non-Astartes, convinced them it was the right thing to do? For Christ's sake Horus was tricked!?!?! Erebus led him to believe the Emperor abandoned him, causing him to turn. The individual marines of the traitor legions were, at the beginning, no more responsible for their treason than the Brides of the Emperor. The Brides still were traitors to the true Imperium, that is indisputable. They were sent against the true followers and still they served the usurper.

[Nabterayl]

Oh, im not saying that they don't fit the role tactically. Their simply something more then space versions of Army Rangers or Spetznaz. Their angels combiend with green berets

Yeah. They're space versions of Bretonnians ;)

That was a joke. Mostly. I quite agree with your point.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Oh, im not saying that they don't fit the role tactically. Their simply something more then space versions of Army Rangers or Spetznaz. Their angels combiend with green berets

Green Berets, while capable of DA, are primarily responsible for FID. In no way, shape, or form are Space Marines used for FID.

[eldargal]

They were corrupted by Chaos, the Daughters were tricked by a senior Imperial official. They served the Ecclesiarchy and when they learned then Vandire did not, they killed him. They never betrayed the Emperor like the Traitor marines, they merely had their loyalty manipulated.



You have committed the ultimate heresy. Not only have you turned your back on the Emperor and stepped from his light, you have profaned his name and almost destroyed everything he has striven to build. You have perverted and twisted the path he has laid for Mankind to tread. As your own decrees have stated, there can be no mercy for such a crime, no pity for such a criminal. I renounce your lordship, you walk in the darkness and cannot be allowed to live. Your sentence has been long overdue and it is now time for you to die. - Saint Alicia Dominica.


So all the Legions turned because they were bad men, not because their Godlike Leaders, the likes of which are unfathomable to non-Astartes, convinced them it was the right thing to do? For Christ's sake Horus was tricked!?!?! Erebus led him to believe the Emperor abandoned him, causing him to turn. The individual marines of the traitor legions were, at the beginning, no more responsible for their treason than the Brides of the Emperor. The Brides still were traitors to the true Imperium, that is indisputable. They were sent against the true followers and still they served the usurper.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

They were corrupted by Chaos, the Daughters were tricked by a senior Imperial official. They served the Ecclesiarchy and when they learned then Vandire did not, they killed him. They never betrayed the Emperor like the Traitor marines, they merely had their loyalty manipulated.


- Saint Alicia Dominica.

The Primarchs were corrupted!!!!!!!!!

The marines turned latter. The Death Guard and Thousand Sons in particular where not ever meant to serve those Gods, they were disillusioned to the Emperor's rule, it took real traitors to make the cultists. You are wrong, what happened to the BotE and the TL is the same scenario, but the Brides had a happy ending. I understand you dont want to lose the argument, but you must see its the same scenario. The Legions were tricked, they just had their hand forced. It would not have been long before Chaos corrupted Vandire and his guards with him, like it was not long before the warrior lodges stopped being cool hang outs and started being sacrificial alters!!!

[eldargal]

It started with Erebus and he wasn't a primarch. Not all Marines in the traitor legions turned traitor either, there were purges (Isstvan III & V) so your claim that they were just following the primarches mindlessly is dubious too. 'It would not have been long before...' is irrelevent, it did not happen because Vandire was executed by the future SoB.
You have said yourself that the traitor legions turned traitor because their primarches were corrupted. Why? Because they put loyalty to their primarch above loyalty to the Emperor. This was clearly a choice because even in the Sons of Horus there were loyal marines. The sisters on the other hand supported a high ranking Imperial official who tricked them into believing he was blessed by the Emperor. Their loyalty to the Emperor never wavered, it was merely abused.


The Primarchs were corrupted!!!!!!!!!

The marines turned latter. The Death Guard and Thousand Sons in particular where not ever meant to serve those Gods, they were disillusioned to the Emperor's rule, it took real traitors to make the cultists. You are wrong, what happened to the BotE and the TL is the same scenario, but the Brides had a happy ending. I understand you dont want to lose the argument, but you must see its the same scenario. The Legions were tricked, they just had their hand forced. It would not have been long before Chaos corrupted Vandire and his guards with him, like it was not long before the warrior lodges stopped being cool hang outs and started being sacrificial alters!!!

[Marshal2Crusaders]

It started with Erebus and he wasn't a primarch. Not all Marines in the traitor legions turned traitor either, there were purges (Isstvan III & V) so your claim that they were just following the primarches mindlessly is dubious too. 'It would not have been long before...' is irrelevent, it did not happen because Vandire was executed by the future SoB.
You have said yourself that the traitor legions turned traitor because their primarches were corrupted. Why? Because they put loyalty to their primarch above loyalty to the Emperor. This was clearly a choice because even in the Sons of Horus there were loyal marines. The sisters on the other hand supported a high ranking Imperial official who tricked them into believing he was blessed by the Emperor. Their loyalty to the Emperor never wavered, it was merely abused.

You are wrong. Erebus manipulated Horus, the Emperor's chosen representative. The Emperor's orders were to follow Horus as if he was the Emperor. So when Horus said kill those on Isstvan, the marines under his command would follow him as if he was the Emperor himself. Only a few important ones knew the truth. The Death Guard never planned to follow Chaos, they simply were fighting what they thought was the Emperor's unjust rule, Typhon corrupted the lodges, who in turn caused Nurgle to corrupt the Legion. The Emperor's Children saw Fulgrim as perfection, only a few resisted or were deemed likely to resist. The Sisters followed Vandire, the did his will, they no doubt killed many innocents just like those Traitors in orbit killed many innocents, they must have felt something amiss, just like the traitors. The fact that they switched sides when they found out is just a happy ending. They also didn't has Horus, the most glorious of beings telling them: Don't worry they are traitors. Horus could inspire anybody, Alicia was just a woman in power armor. Horus tricked everyone into believing the Emperor was an unfair and unworthy ruler, Vandire tricked the Brides into thinking their enemies were traitors. Its the same thing.

[Sitnam]

Green Berets, while capable of DA, are primarily responsible for FID. In no way, shape, or form are Space Marines used for FID.

It was a general statement for special forces; I am aware Space Marines don't go and train guerillas on rebel planets. Although if anyone would, the Raven Guard seem capable of that mission.


Yeah. They're space versions of Bretonnians
Actually, looking at the fantasy part of the forums (I am very ignorant of WHFB fluff), that doesn't seem far from the truth :)

[eldargal]

they simply were fighting what they thought was the Emperor's injust rule
This debate is over who is most loyal to the Emperor. The simple fact is the SoB were loyal to the Emperor, they just had that loyalty manipulated. By your own admission at least one full Traitor Legion was already fighting against the Emperor before being corrupted. The rest chose corrupted primarchs over the Emperor, again by your own admission.
Either way this has gone way off topic.;)


You are wrong. Erebus manipulated Horus, the Emperor's chosen representative. The Emperor's orders were to follow Horus as if he was the Emperor. So when Horus said kill those on Isstvan, the marines under his command would follow him as if he was the Emperor himself. Only a few important ones knew the truth. The Death Guard never planned to follow Chaos, they simply were fighting what they thought was the Emperor's injust rule, Typhon corrupted the lodges, who in turn caused Nurgle to corrupt the Legion. The Emperor's Children saw Fulgrim as perfection, only a few resisted or were deemed likely to resist. The Sisters followed Vandire, the did his will, they no doubt killed many innocents just like those Traitors in orbit killed many innocents, they must have felt something amiss, just like the traitors. The fact that they switched sides when they found out is just a happy ending. They also didn't has Horus, the most glorious of beings telling them: Don't worry they are traitors. Horus could inspire anybody, Alicia was just a woman in power armor. Horus tricked everyone into believing the Emperor was an unfair and unworthy ruler, Vandire tricked the Brides into thinking their enemies were traitors. Its the same thing.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

This debate is over who is most loyal to the Emperor. The simple fact is the SoB were loyal to the Emperor, they just had that loyalty manipulated. By your own admission at least one full Traitor Legion was already fighting against the Emperor before being corrupted. The rest chose corrupted primarchs over the Emperor, again by your own admission.
Either way this has gone way off topic.;)

HaHa... NO

I am saying they have a pretty damn good excuse.


At Sitnam: Totally agree about the RG. Wouldn't it be cool to read about them training the PDF in this new IA?

[Nabterayl]

Actually, looking at the fantasy part of the forums (I am very ignorant of WHFB fluff), that doesn't seem far from the truth :)

From what I know of Bretonnian fluff, it's not a perfect analogy (space marines are at least as much inspired by the USCM and the Mobile Infantry as they are by Arthurian legend, after all), but the parallels are there. Both are elite armies served by a far less exalted underclass. Both have fighting men who aspire to the ranks of the army's elite. Both armies' elites are heavily armored religious fighters whose concepts of personal honor make them peerless warriors but mediocre soldiers. Both armies' elites combine heavy armor with comparatively great speed. Both are human forces that are effectively independent of the great human empire. And so on and so forth.

[Melissia]

I am saying they have a pretty damn good excuse.
Excuses or no, they still did it. The Sisters? They always served the Emperor. Not a single Bride of the Emperor turned against Alicia Dominica and the Emperor when she slew Vandire, for they did not serve Vandire.

Pardon me, but I feel the desire to say it in a 40K-esque manner:

Vandire put a veil over the eyes of many, including His Daughters. But the Emperor smiled upon Humanity, for he summoned His Daughters before him. There, he lifted the veil from their eyes and let them see the truth. In their righteous wrath nothing could stop them-- vandire was dead within the hour, and his reign was over with the single swipe of a sword.

One cannot put the traitor legions in such a positive light. They turned from the light of the Emperor. They fell to Chaos because they were weak, weak of will, weak of mind, weak of spirit. And now they serve the dark powers for eternity, chained by their own betrayal and weakness.

[Duke]

Ok, so Im going to respond to the OP since this has veered a little off topic...

In refrence to "are Apace Marines Practical," let us refrence a quote from Marneus Clagar... "Give me 100 space marines, or failing that give me 10,000 other troops."

Nuff said.

P.S. If you have ever been in/ near a combat situation you can understand what "and they shall know know fear," really means. To be in a situation like that and litterally have no fear means more than you can imagine.

Duke

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Excuses or no, they still did it. The Sisters? They always served the Emperor. Not a single Bride of the Emperor turned against Alicia Dominica and the Emperor when she slew Vandire, for they did not serve Vandire.

Wait, the thought they served the Emperor, but instead they were actually pulling down his realm. They still did it, people in 40K are killed for less all the time.


Pardon me, but I feel the desire to say it in a 40K-esque manner:

Vandire put a veil over the eyes of many, including His Daughters. But the Emperor smiled upon Humanity, for he summoned His Daughters before him. There, he lifted the veil from their eyes and let them see the truth. In their righteous wrath nothing could stop them-- vandire was dead within the hour, and his reign was over with the single swipe of a sword.

One cannot put the traitor legions in such a positive light. They turned from the light of the Emperor. They fell to Chaos because they were weak, weak of will, weak of mind, weak of spirit. And now they serve the dark powers for eternity, chained by their own betrayal and weakness.

Well, if it wasn't for their usefulness they would have been put down like the Frateris Militia. The true Imperials saw a tool and now they use it. The Chaos space marines were led by those of weakened mind, weakened spirit, and weakened will, betrayed by mortals who were lucky enough to confuse the gods. It is not an inherent flaw in the Astartes, it is the mastery of manipulation by being far more powerful than all but the Emperor that led them astray. Vandire was just a man, the Chaos Gods are much, much more.

[Duke]

Pardon me, but I feel the desire to say it in a 40K-esque manner:

Vandire put a veil over the eyes of many, including His Daughters. But the Emperor smiled upon Humanity, for he summoned His Daughters before him. There, he lifted the veil from their eyes and let them see the truth. In their righteous wrath nothing could stop them-- vandire was dead within the hour, and his reign was over with the single swipe of a sword.

One cannot put the traitor legions in such a positive light. They turned from the light of the Emperor. They fell to Chaos because they were weak, weak of will, weak of mind, weak of spirit. And now they serve the dark powers for eternity, chained by their own betrayal and weakness.

I just had to say that I dig the 40k talk! It should almost be a requirement...

DUKE

[bryce963]

I'm going to have to side with the ladies on this one.

I don't have sources with me, just memory, my books etc are 5 hours away.
But the dissent/ going over to chaos started in the ranks, not just from a single person with authority. Also it continued in the normal rank and file, Istvaan was to get rid of those who would not betray the Emperor, and to take out as many loyal marines as possible. The Heresy was outright betrayal, maybe not actual chaos worship for most of the legions at the time, but it was betrayal of the Emperor, not deception by someone who was in authority, those who survived Istvaan were loyal to the Primarchs, not the Emperor, those who were loyal to the Emperor died on Istvaan, or escaped.

Therefore, the sisters are more loyal to the Emperor, they followed Vandire out of loyalty to the Emperor, and killed him when that was shown to be false. The traitor legions abandoned loyalty to the Emperor and gave it to the Warmaster and their Primarchs, those who remained loyal were weeded out and slaughtered.

[Aenir]

I feel that there is a slight thing here that I thought i should point out (although most of you probably know this)

SoB are more devoted to the emp. (this is coming from a SM player) but the reason for this is that they see the Emperor as a god, the marines on the other hand, see the Emp. as a great MAN, but a man nonetheless, is it not easier to be more fanatical for a god over a man?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

I'm going to have to side with the ladies on this one.

I don't have sources with me, just memory, my books etc are 5 hours away.
But the dissent/ going over to chaos started in the ranks, not just from a single person with authority. Also it continued in the normal rank and file, Istvaan was to get rid of those who would not betray the Emperor, and to take out as many loyal marines as possible. The Heresy was outright betrayal, maybe not actual chaos worship for most of the legions at the time, but it was betrayal of the Emperor, not deception by someone who was in authority, those who survived Istvaan were loyal to the Primarchs, not the Emperor, those who were loyal to the Emperor died on Istvaan, or escaped.

Therefore, the sisters are more loyal to the Emperor, they followed Vandire out of loyalty to the Emperor, and killed him when that was shown to be false. The traitor legions abandoned loyalty to the Emperor and gave it to the Warmaster and their Primarchs, those who remained loyal were weeded out and slaughtered.

To the Traitors, they were leading a revolution. How is this hard to see?

[Sangre]

Ladies, please, take your sisters back to the thread that needs them. This is about the practicality of space marines in combat, not who has the biggest hard-on for the god-emperor.

[Wolfshade]

When it comes to the practicality of the SM, I think there is an issue here with the initial understanding of how the SM works. Looking in the books SM worlds do not pay tithes and generate funds for the Imperum, nor do they need to support guard units (though most have their own pdf forces). In this context I think it would be better to think of them almost as mercenaries. Certainly they are not human after all the genetic manipulation/mutation.

The other comparison between a SM and a Stormtrooper (ST), one has to consider the survivability of both in context. Fluff wise they start fighting at a similiar time but the ST is just a man and expects to die of natural courses at 70 say, more likely being unable to maintain the lifestyle of a ST after 50 but looking at the attrition rates of the IG how many survive long enough to retire from the service? Compared with the life expectancy of a marine 500 years old if not more, fluff wise also much more survivable so they may "cost" more (though the cost of the marine is not directly felt by the Imperiums economy as they are autonomous states), they are also provide 10x the length of service.

As an aside regarding the loyalty issue aforementioned, both of them have service and are ultimately loyal, but to a subtly different Emporer, the one is a deity to be served, the other other is the ultimate warrior, to be emulated.

[Lord Azaghul]

Ladies, please, take your sisters back to the thread that needs them. This is about the practicality of space marines in combat, not who has the biggest hard-on for the god-emperor.

:D Nice!

I found it odd that no-one questioned the loyalty of the guard to the emporer! I would say that the guard are far more loyal to their fellows then the far off idea of the god emporer (much like real soldiers).

As far as any of the Inquision goes, sisters included - No thanks! There are all power hungry buearicrates with far to much authority to chase chaos out of very supposed misloyalty or heresy! After reading the fluff on them all I could think of the extreme 1950 mccarthiesm or fascism - some crazed misguided religious loyalties to the state for no other reason then that they were told to be loyal.
At least SM seem to think a little bit more for themselves (hence the tratiors!)

But back to SM being practical, if there are roaming from battle to battle, how are they resupplied - I assume the adeptus astraries still need to eat, refuel and resupply - that burden must fall on the imperium.

I just don't see how any chapter could be completely self contained.

[Wolfshade]

Well they have their own world or worlds and if I remember rightly (not very likely) then they have forges and armouries of their own, failing that the mechanicum would serve them, which again are autonomous of the Imperium. The question then becomes how do those on the fringe or obscured by warp storms get re-supplied especially if they don't have a base of operations like the templars? Or do they just mandate the local planetary governor ceed the necessary resources? If that is the case then it would be a drain on the economy of that world but in the vast span of the imperium probably wouldn't amount to noticable amount.
This has given me the thought that since the tax base of the imperium is so large even if they were supporting the SMs then this wouldn't be a very big drain after all, they don't have wages, the wargear is produced at cost

[Melissia]

Noone questions the Guard's loyalty because we already know they're not entirely that loyal. Like saying "that Skaven over there is looking at me funny..."

Wait, the thought they served the Emperor, but instead they were actually pulling down his realm. They still did it, people in 40K are killed for less all the time.
But in the end they still served the Emperor. Not Vandire. The same cannot be said of the traitor Marines.

To the Traitors, they were leading a revolution.
... against the Emperor, to topple Him and His Imperium. Therefor they are less loyal to Him.

You keep proving my point with your posts, and for that I must thank you :P

[Lord Azaghul]

The question then becomes how do those on the fringe or obscured by warp storms get re-supplied especially if they don't have a base of operations like the templars? Or do they just mandate the local planetary governor ceed the necessary resources? If that is the case then it would be a drain on the economy of that world but in the vast span of the imperium probably wouldn't amount to noticable amount.

This has given me the thought that since the tax base of the imperium is so large even if they were supporting the SMs then this wouldn't be a very big drain after all, they don't have wages, the wargear is produced at cost

That is indeed were I was leading - especially given space travel, and time constrains - in truth their aren't many SM, but if they are soley dependant upon their own planets...it makes being over extended very easy

[L192837465]

There is no imperial soul more loyal than Grey Knights. 'nuff said.

The space marines may have fallen (half of them at least) once, and a few times in smaller numbers, but the SoB fall to chaos once a month for 5 days.

Marines are pretty straight and narrow.

[Cryl]

Just to comment on the loyalty thing, there are those that fall to chaos in all Imperial organisations (exception to date being the Grey Knights). All I have to add on the particular example of the Sisters of Battle vs the Astartes is that they had the benefit of an audience with the Emperor himself... I wonder how much of the heresy could have been avoided had the Emperor left (been able to leave?) Terra after he handed the crusade to Horus... I suspect he might have noticed the corruption seeping into Fulgrim and Horus in particular and I doubt even Erebus would have been able to hide the daemonic influence from him...

[Melissia]

The Sisters always were loyal to the Emperor. Even when following Vandire, they did so only because he was the Ecclesiarch, the leader of the Imperial Church and thus the spiritual voice of the Emperor. Even if he abused this position, that's what he was. The Emperor Himself cast Vandire from his pedestal, and the Sisters executed him for his crimes. Indeed, if he hadn't, his crimes would have become self-evident before long I think, but then that's speculation.

And now the Sisters police the Ecclesiarchy, with His blessings-- the sword of the Church, double-edged and pointed at both the enemy without and within.
That is indeed were I was leading - especially given space travel, and time constrains - in truth their aren't many SM, but if they are soley dependant upon their own planets...it makes being over extended very easy

There are very, VERY few Marines. One million in an Imperium that has many times more worlds than it has Marines. One could fit all the Marines in existence in a single section of a hive city.

Also, worlds such as Fenksworld (see Dark Heresy) supply such things as bolter shell casings and so on for the Astartes, which are considered blessed and holy items which are illegal for non-Astartes (or Sororitas) to own.

[Duke]

The Sisters always were loyal to the Emperor. Even when following Vandire, they did so only because he was the Ecclesiarch, the leader of the Imperial Church and thus the spiritual voice of the Emperor. Even if he abused this position, that's what he was. The Emperor Himself cast Vandire from his pedestal, and the Sisters executed him for his crimes. Indeed, if he hadn't, his crimes would have become self-evident before long I think, but then that's speculation.


Just for the sake of argument, isn't the excuse "we were only following orders," kind of a weak argument. When I was in the military "Only following orders," was not an excuse and you could still be severly punished for it... is it implied then that sisters are the less mentally cognicent than modern military personnel?

Duke

[Gotthammer]

No. When fighting marines just go somewhere with low ceilings and weak floorboards - when a dude's 8ft tall and half as wide he'll never catch you ;)

[Melissia]

Just for the sake of argument, isn't the excuse "we were only following orders," kind of a weak argument. When I was in the military "Only following orders," was not an excuse and you could still be severly punished for it... is it implied then that sisters are the less mentally cognicent than modern military personnel?

Duke
No, it implies that they followed Vandire for religious reasons rather than military ones. Just like catholics followed the corrupt popes before tehy were removed-- corrupt or not, they're still popes. The ecclesiarch is very similar to a pope in position.

A lot of people were forgiven by Sebastian Thor following the Age of Apostasy, including the Brides of the Emperor, whom eventually became the reborn Daughters of the Emperor, and the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor was quite a saint, read about him.

[Duke]

No, it implies that they followed Vandire for religious reasons rather than military ones. Just like catholics followed the corrupt popes before tehy were removed-- corrupt or not, they're still popes. The ecclesiarch is very similar to a pope in position.

A lot of people were forgiven by Sebastian Thor following the Age of Apostasy, including the Brides of the Emperor, whom eventually became the reborn Daughters of the Emperor, and the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor was quite a saint, read about him.

Again, for arguments sake, If we are basing our theory on the fact that they did it for religious reasons then I suggest the following.

1. Sisters can recieve spiritual guidence from the Emperor directly (correct?)
2. If sisters can recieve that direction from the Emperor then they cannot be lead astray by a pope figure. (direct divine revelation supercedes papal orders.)
3. If direct divine revelation supercedes the coporeal leaders, and sisters are able to recieve it then we can only assume that they were also corrupt, or else they would have been worthy to recieve the revelation to not follow him in the first place.
4. put simply: 'Sinning,' is still 'sinning,' regardless of why or who told you to...


(Please know that I have not read the story to which you refer, this could create a flaw in my logic, mostly I debate for debates sake, and I find that you are often good game)

Duke

[Sangre]

Hot damn, Mellisia, you're not even pretending to read people's posts anymore.

[Gotthammer]

Duke, at the time the Daughters of the Emperor were an obscure warrior cult, very small in number. The leaders of the Daughters each went on to found one of the main Orders of the Adeptus Sororitas during the reformation after the Apostasy was cleaned up.
They became Vandire's elite bodyguard due to their piousness and his "holyness" needing pious people to protect him. The subtext is that Vandire picked them because as he was the Ecclesiarch he was, to the Daughters, the Emperor's second banana and they would thus follow him without question. After all to them the Emperor was a god so wouldn't stand to have a faker claiming to represent him as chief religious guy - he'd miracle him into oblivion.

The Daughters were confined to Earth during all the fighting, and the loss of the attack fleet in The Storm of The Emperor's Wrath, so their info of who was fighting and why would have been heavily filtered and tainted. Eventually during the attack on the palace by the anti-Vandire army the Adeptus Custodes took the leaders of the Daughters to see the Emperor in person. They came back and chopped Vandire into pieces.

Seems to me that when they got some guidence from the Emperor they acted on it.

It would make a rather dull story if it went "And verily it cam to pass that Vandire got himself some super fancy Emperor lovin' bodyguards. But lo the Emperor appeared to them and told them Vandire was a most non-triumphant dude. So yea did they smite him mightily."

[Aldramelech]

Like comedy, it doesn't do to Analise Sci Fi...........

[Lord Azaghul]

Like comedy, it doesn't do to Analise Sci Fi...........

Depends on the sci-fi, read Dune, and the subequent books my Frank Herbet - that man analyzed human nature, economics, and politics and managed to put it into a marvels science fiction realm!

[Aldramelech]

Oh good god no........

Not that bloody stupid film with Sting chopping up cows and that bloke wondering around going "Ahh the spice!"

If that is at all representative of said books, Id rather chew broken glass lol.

[Aldramelech]

No, it implies that they followed Vandire for religious reasons rather than military ones. Just like catholics followed the corrupt popes before tehy were removed-- corrupt or not, they're still popes. The ecclesiarch is very similar to a pope in position.

A lot of people were forgiven by Sebastian Thor following the Age of Apostasy, including the Brides of the Emperor, whom eventually became the reborn Daughters of the Emperor, and the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor was quite a saint, read about him.

Even more up to date, look at the German Officer class just prior to WW2.

[Sangre]

Oh good god no........

Not that bloody stupid film with Sting chopping up cows and that bloke wondering around going "Ahh the spice!"

If that is at representative of said books, Id rather chew broken glass lol.

It's not even nearly representative of the books. Although it is weirdly satisfying in its own way.

[Lord Azaghul]

It's not even nearly representative of the books. Although it is weirdly satisfying in its own way.

Chewing on glass?

The movie is truely aweful and the sci-fi channel on is not much better. Dune is considered one of the best sci-fi works today. Check it out if you've got the time, but avoid anything that Kevin J Anderson co-wrote -that stuff is crap.

[Aldramelech]

Yesssssss. "Id rather chew on broken glass", a common way of saying "I dont want to do that".

[Valkerie]

:D Nice!

I found it odd that no-one questioned the loyalty of the guard to the emporer! I would say that the guard are far more loyal to their fellows then the far off idea of the god emporer (much like real soldiers).

As far as any of the Inquision goes, sisters included - No thanks! There are all power hungry buearicrates with far to much authority to chase chaos out of very supposed misloyalty or heresy! After reading the fluff on them all I could think of the extreme 1950 mccarthiesm or fascism - some crazed misguided religious loyalties to the state for no other reason then that they were told to be loyal.
At least SM seem to think a little bit more for themselves (hence the tratiors!)

But back to SM being practical, if there are roaming from battle to battle, how are they resupplied - I assume the adeptus astraries still need to eat, refuel and resupply - that burden must fall on the imperium.

I just don't see how any chapter could be completely self contained.

In source material going all the way back to Rogue Trader days, it states that the "IG trooper regards himself as belonging first and foremost to the Regiment rather than the Army to which it is assigned at its raiising." I think we can assume that the Emperor is fairly far down the list. This is also the reason the Guard has Commissars, to insure the loyalty of the soldiers.

On a related note, this is why the Guard has such ineffective basic weapons and armor. The Imperium wants to make sure that if a Guard regiment rises against it, the "loyal" troops, the Marines, will have better weapons and equipment.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

In source material going all the way back to Rogue Trader days, it states that the "IG trooper regards himself as belonging first and foremost to the Regiment rather than the Army to which it is assigned at its raiising." I think we can assume that the Emperor is fairly far down the list. This is also the reason the Guard has Commissars, to insure the loyalty of the soldiers.

On a related note, this is why the Guard has such ineffective basic weapons and armor. The Imperium wants to make sure that if a Guard regiment rises against it, the "loyal" troops, the Marines, will have better weapons and equipment.

It will often be other guard regiments who fight traitor guard. It will often be guard who fights any enemy the imperium has...

[Melissia]

The Daughters of the Emperor did not actually have contact with the Emperor until He summoned their leaders to His throne.

Shutup, Sangre.
It will often be other guard regiments who fight traitor guard. It will often be guard who fights any enemy the imperium has...

Correct. Ninety nine percent of all battles in the Imperium are Imperial Guard versus someone else, with no help from the Marines or Sororitas.

[DarkLink]

Correct. Ninety nine percent of all battles in the Imperium are Imperial Guard versus someone else, with no help from the Marines or Sororitas.

Right, the Space marines get to do this, though:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_2HAuhOIOb6s/R8skLiuV1TI/AAAAAAAACfY/6PMLJu6xFmc/40k+Sacrifice.jpg

[Marshal2Crusaders]

The Daughters of the Emperor did not actually have contact with the Emperor until He summoned their leaders to His throne.

Shutup, Sangre.

Correct. Ninety nine percent of all battles in the Imperium are Imperial Guard versus someone else, with no help from the Marines or Sororitas.

You know that is way too high of an estimate. Most Imperial Army Groups include some form of force multiplying element, be they Titans, Marines, Sororitas, etc...

[Sangre]

Shutup, Sangre.

Well that told me. I'm positively dazzled by your skilful debate.

[Wolfshade]

Something from a little left field reasoning for you, one of the purposes of the Great Crusade was to remove the supersitions of Old Night and bring in truth and rationalism, not to set the Emperorup as a godhead. So surely anyone following the imperial cult is not truely loyal to the Emperor...all of the loyaltiy arguements I am finding increasingly hard to fathom being part of the "are space marines practical?":confused:

Discussions should be on calculating the relative cost to a system to support an imperial guard regiment compared with the supplying the SMs. Given the cadia is given over to become a "boot camp world" is this the closest IG version of a SM home planet, so how does the economy of cadia cope with near 99% conscription rate?

[Aldramelech]

Well that told me. I'm positively dazzled by your skilful debate.

Ahhh maybe we have found the AntiMelissia at last. The Ultimate Nemesis to the mad nun! :D

[eldargal]

The Imperium is a galactic ecnomy with over a million worlds, the upkeep of a few fortress planets (lika Cadia) and the entire Adeptus Astartes would not put much of a dent in that. It is, for want of a better word, a galacticised economy, with entire worlds put over to industry or farming so Cadia probably doesn't produce much of its own food and whatnot.
Incidentally I was reading some of my brothers 40k comics, I mean, graphic novels (:rolleyes:) and noticed in Eternal Damnation a rogue planetary governor (or system governor, I forget) said that it would take one million Imperial Guard to halt (not defeat) a whole Chapter of marines. So if that is the fluffy ratio, I'd say the SM are worth the investment.


Something from a little left field reasoning for you, one of the purposes of the Great Crusade was to remove the supersitions of Old Night and bring in truth and rationalism, not to set the Emperorup as a godhead. So surely anyone following the imperial cult is not truely loyal to the Emperor...all of the loyaltiy arguements I am finding increasingly hard to fathom being part of the "are space marines practical?":confused:

Discussions should be on calculating the relative cost to a system to support an imperial guard regiment compared with the supplying the SMs. Given the cadia is given over to become a "boot camp world" is this the closest IG version of a SM home planet, so how does the economy of cadia cope with near 99% conscription rate?

[Dosadi]

How long does it take to ‘grow’ a space marine, extra hearts, lungs and what not.

A few years. Most of this work is done in the Fortress Monastery’s Apothicarium.


How long does it take to train a space marine?

Again, a few years from recruit to neophyte. A neophyte may spend another decade in the Scout company, but most probably graduate to one of the battle companies within a few years depending upon their skill.


How expensive is power armour to produce?

New suits of Power armour are extremely expensive to produce, not to mention there are probably only a few tech priests on mars who have any idea how to make new suits. Mk8 errant armour is still considered “experimental” and it was first made thousands of years in the past.
Let’s remember that marines aren’t producing anything new. All their armour, weapons, vehicles are ancient artifacts carefully repaired and maintained by Techmarines and artificers. There is probably an entire industry built around the recovery of armor and equipment. Entire campaigns have been waged to recover a single suit of Tactical Dreadnought (terminator) armour.


How expensive is it to produce wave after wave of rhinos and drop pods, considering that they are all practively one use only. I don’t know about you but when was the last time a rhino surivived a battle?

Technological development in the Imperium is at a standstill and any “new” technology is probably just old technology that has been uncovered and approved for use by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Pretty much everything is “recovered” after a battle so Rhinos are rebuilt after every engagement; drop pods are picked up and carried back to the strike cruisers dead marines are harvested for their progenoid gland. I picture huge teams of servitors tasked with the post-battle duty of locating and recovering every last scrap of marine equipment.


How are SM chapters financed and maintained?

Marines are like fudal knightly orders; they pretty much take what they want when they want. Since most govern entire planets (or even solar systems) the planetary industry is built around supplying and supporting the Chapter. Could you imagine what sort of resources we could muster on earth if every resource was put towards a single purpose?


Then my thoughts drifted over the Chaos space marines… They don’t even seem to have the resources of the imperium to draw from, after all slave labour never produces the hightest quality armament!

When the Chaos Marine Legions split they took nearly half of the existing marines with them. Back then a Legion could be almost ten times the size of a contemporary chapter. So eight legions worth is a lot of marines. Not to mention that Chaos Marines constantly raid and plunder imperial worlds to steal resources. Despite what the Imperial propaganda says, marines do turn renegade, sometimes entire chapters. The Red Corsairs will attack other marine chapters to steal their geneseed and equipment. There are entire forgeworlds that have been captured and put to work producing arms and equipment for the traitors. In the end, they probably have access to just as much as loyalist marines do, they probably just have use harsher methods to get it.


How many worlds are in the imperium?

Nobody really knows. I’ve put in a request from the Administratum for this information, but my request is still making it through the bureaucracy. I can expect a response in about two hundred years. Estimates say it must be in the billions.


It is easier to build a russ or a land raider?

They don’t have the technology to build Land Raiders or Land Speeders anymore. That’s why only the Astartes are allowed to use them now. A Leman Russ can be mass produced with factories turning out hundreds or thousands a day. Entire planets are tasked with that single purpose.


If the imperium has this great resourse of ships cruisers and men, wouldn’t that me a must more appliable solution to the problem of chaos?

During the time of the great crusade Marine Legions had their own Battle fleets. It wasn’t until after the heresy that they were forbidden from having that level of naval strength. So the traitor legions probably have sizable fleets. Not to mention all the ships they have captured over the millennia. Again, ship construction is pretty much lost on 90% of the imperil worlds. Most of the current ships out there were built during the time of the Great Crusade.


Surely the training time for an average guardsmen is much shorter then that of a marine.

A guardsman can probably be trained in a matter of weeks. A good guardsman in about six months. Some don’t even get that. One day you are a simple farmer on your Agri-world and the next day you are knee deep in the mud with a lasgun; the extent of your knowledge being which end of the lasgun to point at the baddies.


Its probably even cheaper to build a basilisk then raise and train a SM…

Absolutely, anything based on the chimera chassis can be turned out in the thousands in a relatively short period of time.


Are SM meltas any better then guard metla?

SM meltas have been blessed and ritually assembled, they have had the proper rights read aloud when loading them and sacred oils have been applied in accordance with the Omnissiah’s wishes. The user recites the litany of accuracy before every shot is taken and his faith that his weapons machine spirit is pure and clear of any taint is unshakable. So yes, marine meltas are better.


Dosadi

[Gotthammer]

Let’s remember that marines aren’t producing anything new. All their armour, weapons, vehicles are ancient artifacts carefully repaired and maintained by Techmarines and artificers. There is probably an entire industry built around the recovery of armor and equipment. Entire campaigns have been waged to recover a single suit of Tactical Dreadnought (terminator) armour.


They don’t have the technology to build Land Raiders or Land Speeders anymore. That’s why only the Astartes are allowed to use them now. A Leman Russ can be mass produced with factories turning out hundreds or thousands a day. Entire planets are tasked with that single purpose.

Not entirely true - all their stuff is recovered as you say but many chapters do produce their own equipment, though it is referenced the Martian stuff is generally of better quality.

Also the Land Raider ban is from the Heresey, when the Emperor ordered all the LRs given to the Marines as they could use them better and needed them more. The Emperor never got around to reversing the order after he was interred in the Golden Throne, so it still stands.

[Valkerie]

It will often be other guard regiments who fight traitor guard. It will often be guard who fights any enemy the imperium has...


Sorry. I guess I should have said, In my opinion, etc. I was thinking of how in the old British Empire the native troops had older weaponry while the British troops had all the modern stuff. For 40K, it could just be a combination of economics, (why waste money on troops who aren't gooing to survive?), and the fact that the Imperium is rather hidebound and slow to change. " If lasguns were good enough for my 26 times great grandfather, they're good enough for you!" I don't have the IA book handy, but IIRC it took the Admech something like 500 years after they discovered the STC for the Lightning Fighter to begin producing test models, and 100 or so more years to begin production. Not an organization that looks fondly on change.

[Duke]

This topic remindes me of a discussion that happened all the time in the military: Which branch is better?

I was in the Air Force and a lot of people said that we were overpriced and that they money would be better spent on infantry... Obivously everyone has their opinions about 'effectiveness,' when they are sitting in the barracks. I can tell you though that when things get tough for the boots on the ground they are more than joyful to call in our wings... Even though we are expensive.

The same thing applies with the Imperium, sure guard are cheaper to maintain and train, but I bet none complain when they are about to be overrun and some Astartes show up.

As an example of actual cost-effectiveness... The average lifespan of a guardsman is 6 seconds (As per the guardsmans uplifting primer IIRC). Astartes live for hundreds of years (Some are 1000+ years old) not only do they live longer, but they do it where the fighting is the thickest, where no 'man,' could hope to survive. So mathmatically, if a marine lives for 600 years before dying in combat and a guardsman dies after 6 seconds then a marine is:

Marine: Alive in the thickest fighting for: 315,576,000 seconds

Guardsman: Alive in average fighting for: 6 seconds

As such Marines are: 52,596,000 (52.6 million) times more effective than a guardsman.

I think that answers the OP question.


DUKE (Let the dogs out!)

[Melissia]

We're not talking effectiveness, but practicality. How effective something is is irrelevant if it's so expensive/rare/hard to produce/unreliable that it is impractical. Marines (along with their equipment) are all of the above.

[Ka Faraq Gatri]

I'm not jumping into this argument wholesale - not in my first post on the BoLS forums anyway! - but I do want to make an observation regarding the idea someone mentioned a few pages back about using the resources that are reserved for the Astartes to instead train and equip many more Storm Troopers for the Guard.

There is one glaring problem with this idea. Storm Troopers, whether they are a single squad or an entire regiment, are part of the Imperial Guard command structure which goes all the way to the top of the Imperium - the High Lords of Terra.

If Storm Troopers had been the Imperium's "top" elite force, then the Imperium would have ended with High Lord Goge Vandire.

As both Ecclesiarch and Lord of the Administratum, Vandire had complete control over the Imperial Guard, Storm Troopers included. Indeed, the only reason the Custodes were able to lead Alicia Dominica to the Golden Throne was that several chapters of Space Marines, along with the Adeptus Mechanicus, were laying siege to Terra in an attempt to dislodge the treacherous High Lord. The Fabricator General was only willing to do so if Astartes were involved.

My point is this: the Space Marines are more than just Imperial Special Forces. They are a completely independent safeguard against someone like Vandire, or a renegade Inquisitor, or a corrupt Planetary Governor or other such threats. Their independence is based upon their - in general - strong morality and hardwired belief in the Imperial status quo. And while, yes, some Space Marine individuals, squads and even entire Chapters go rogue, they are relatively few and far between, and it takes far more to corrupt a Space Marine than an Imperial Guardsman, or even an Inquisitor.

So, battlefield effectiveness aside, Space Marines are necessary for the welfare of the Imperium. They are bloody handy in a scrap though.

[Aldramelech]

In much the same way as **** Germany operated. German Army and SS.

[Sangre]

We're not talking effectiveness, but practicality. How effective something is is irrelevant if it's so expensive/rare/hard to produce/unreliable that it is impractical. Marines (along with their equipment) are all of the above.

Let's not forget that the Imperium is so huge they probably have entire solar systems of forgeworlds devoted to making Mk VII codpieces. In a universe where Mankind can bring to bear armies of trillions of ordinary soldiers at a time, I don't think practicality is really something you can question.

[Aldramelech]

You two should get a room :rolleyes:

[AirHorse]

This is war, the only practicality is victory, costs are irrelevant. And in war whats more practical than a giant man built like the juggernaught with the reactions of a cat, clad in armour that makes him like a walking bunker compared to other troops :P.

[DarkLink]

This is war, the only practicality is victory, costs are irrelevant. And in war whats more practical than a giant man built like the juggernaught with the reactions of a cat, clad in armour that makes him like a walking bunker compared to other troops :P.

And weilding a fully automatic rocket-launcher and/or chainsaw sword, standard. Don't forget that.

[Duke]

Wow. So you're getting all defenition on me? By pure defenition space marines are fully practical.. Also, in a galaxy filled with all the horrors of the galaxy the imperial guard mostly can only play defense. The space marines are the offense of the imperium.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Tell that to Macharius.

[Duke]

True, Macharius took the IG on the offense, but he was the one in a million that has done it. That is why he was so special.

Duke

[Melissia]

One in a million... in a population of millions upon billions upon tillions. There are other great offensive IG Lord Generals out there, what was special about Macharius is that he was supremely successful rather than great, good, mild, mediocre, or worse.

The Imperium goes on the offense without the Marines all the damn time.

[Ivarr]

Space marines are cool....not practical...

[Duke]

One in a million... in a population of millions upon billions upon tillions. There are other great offensive IG Lord Generals out there, what was special about Macharius is that he was supremely successful rather than great, good, mild, mediocre, or worse.

The Imperium goes on the offense without the Marines all the damn time.

First, thanks for supporting my macharias argument for him being so rare. As far as 'guard going oN the offensive all the time.' it may be few, but for once in your arguments, give me a few examples. Put simply the imperium would fall without the marines...

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Macharius wasn't notable for being successful; he was notable for conquering a thousand worlds in seven years. I'd like to see even Dante, Grimnar, or Calgar do that.

As for offensive actions that resulted in victory for the Imperial Guard, Vraks, the Damocles Crusade,* and the Sabbat Worlds Crusade come to mind after about five minutes of research.

* The end result was withdrawal from Tau space, but not because the Tau had beaten the Guard. The actual operations were a success for the Guard, even if the tyranid thread required the Crusade to be abandoned.

[Duke]

Macharius wasn't notable for being successful; he was notable for conquering a thousand worlds in seven years. I'd like to see even Dante, Grimnar, or Calgar do that.

As for offensive actions that resulted in victory for the Imperial Guard, Vraks, the Damocles Crusade,* and the Sabbat Worlds Crusade come to mind after about five minutes of research.

* The end result was withdrawal from Tau space, but not because the Tau had beaten the Guard. The actual operations were a success for the Guard, even if the tyranid thread required the Crusade to be abandoned.

Good examples:
Damocles: included fully 5 chapters of astartes
Sabbat: 6 chapters
Vraks: A defensive campaign iirc but also included astartes.

[Nabterayl]

Sure, but what was the nature of the space marines' involvement? Vraks (an invasion) listed eighteen years and had four different space marines chapters involve themselves over the course of the campaign, not counting the Grey Knights. All but three of those marine deployments were for a single mission, one of which was unsolicited and of essentially no connection to the war effort. The fourth, long-term deployment, included a spectacular disaster that saw 150 battle-brothers annihilated in a single drop. With the exception of the unsolicited Dark Angels deployment, the space marines were only added late in the war, at inquisitorial request.

My point is that space marines will say they were "involved" in a campaign if they were there; the mere involvement of a chapter doesn't tell us what they contributed to the overall war effort. Most Astartes missions are of limited duration and limited scope, even if the actual deployment is long-term (c.f. the Taros campaign, to which the Raptors were deployed for the duration - and participated in exactly three missions). They may be things that conventional forces could only do at enormous cost (e.g., seizing the breach in the curtain wall on Vraks), but I'm not prepared to grant "offense" status to the Astartes alone on that basis. They're important to the Imperium's offensive operations, but they can't do much on their own. No space marine chapter could have, or would have, accomplished the Vraks mission without the Imperial Guard. Like the poster says - give it your all, and you just might hold out long enough for the Astartes to take all the credit.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Good examples:
Damocles: included fully 5 chapters of astartes
Sabbat: 6 chapters
Vraks: A defensive campaign iirc but also included astartes.

Vraks had lots of CHapters:

Dark Angels
Red Scorpions
Angels of Absolution
Grey Knights
Red Hunters


Thats 5 I believe.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Sure, but what was the nature of the space marines' involvement? Vraks (an invasion) listed eighteen years and had four different space marines chapters involve themselves over the course of the campaign, not counting the Grey Knights. All but three of those marine deployments were for a single mission, one of which was unsolicited and of essentially no connection to the war effort. The fourth, long-term deployment, included a spectacular disaster that saw 150 battle-brothers annihilated in a single drop. With the exception of the unsolicited Dark Angels deployment, the space marines were only added late in the war, at inquisitorial request.

My point is that space marines will say they were "involved" in a campaign if they were there; the mere involvement of a chapter doesn't tell us what they contributed to the overall war effort. Most Astartes missions are of limited duration and limited scope, even if the actual deployment is long-term (c.f. the Taros campaign, to which the Raptors were deployed for the duration - and participated in exactly three missions). They may be things that conventional forces could only do at enormous cost (e.g., seizing the breach in the curtain wall on Vraks), but I'm not prepared to grant "offense" status to the Astartes alone on that basis. They're important to the Imperium's offensive operations, but they can't do much on their own. No space marine chapter could have, or would have, accomplished the Vraks mission without the Imperial Guard. Like the poster says - give it your all, and you just might hold out long enough for the Astartes to take all the credit.

Compare that to the EoT and Armageddon, where Space Marines were absolutely vital to the war effort. If anything the Space Marines earned their Right when the a.) conquered the galaxy, b.) kept it together after the other half tried to seize control (the Guard could not have done that), c.) assisted the Cadians in combating every single Black Crusade, d.) Won the War in Space Above Armageddon, e.) Defeated Hive Fleet Behemoth, f.) do I need to go on? Seriously?

No other Imperial Organization has turned back the tide when it matters, only the Space Marines, and that is their damned practicality. They don't participate everywhere and when the do it may be light. You know why? Because when **** hits the fan, and murphy shows up, and chaos is nibbling on you ***, the orks are growing in your refrigerator, the Space Marines are there to say: "no-no naughty Xenos/Chaos beasties, WE are here to destroy YOU".

[Nabterayl]

Compare that to the EoT and Armageddon, where Space Marines were absolutely vital to the war effort. If anything the Space Marines earned their Right when the a.) conquered the galaxy, b.) kept it together after the other half tried to seize control (the Guard could not have done that), c.) assisted the Cadians in combating every single Black Crusade, d.) Won the War in Space Above Armageddon, e.) Defeated Hive Fleet Behemoth, f.) do I need to go on? Seriously?

No other Imperial Organization has turned back the tide when it matters, only the Space Marines, and that is their damned practicality.
Not arguing with any of that. What I'm arguing with is Duke's statement that space marines are the only organization, or almost the only organization, the Imperium turns to when it wants to attack. That's just not true. For one thing, you can't plan an attack around an army you have to ask to participate in your war effort. For another, space marines cannot and do not voluntarily undertake large operations without the Guard.

I'm not arguing that some of those large operations would have been successful without the intervention of the Astartes. What I'm arguing is that those large operations would not have been successful if the Astartes had tried to undertake them alone. Is that really a controversial statement?

The defense of Macragge is a good exception, a large-scale operation that the Ultramarines undertook mostly alone. It's not clear to me that without Imperial reinforcements the Ultramarines would have been able to hold Macragge, but it's still an inspiring feat of arms. On the other hand, the Ultramarines felt like their hand was forced in that circumstance. Would even a man like Marneus Calgar committed his chapter to re-taking Vraks if he was asked to do it without the Death Korps? I doubt it. Would even a man like Dante commit his chapter to Third Armageddon without the Steel Legion? I doubt it - in fact he left in the middle of the war even with the Steel Legion. Would the space marines have been able to hold the Cadian Gate so effectively without the Shock Troops? That's not clear to me.

The point is not that the Astartes are bad people, cowards, or an ineffective fighting force. The point is that, when it comes to the really heavy lifting, the Astartes need the Guard and the Navy. This is true even though, when it comes to the really heavy lifting, the Guard and the Navy also need the Astartes.

The Great Crusade is a different beast. The space marine legions were an army, and they behaved like an army. The space marine chapters are not an army, and they do not behave like one. Having deliberately structured themselves to not be an army, there's only so much that the chapters can do. Could they do more if they structured themselves differently? Of course. Nobody's arguing that.


They don't participate everywhere and when the do it may be light. You know why? Because when **** hits the fan, and murphy shows up, and chaos is nibbling on you ***, the orks are growing in your refrigerator, the Space Marines are there to say: "no-no naughty Xenos/Chaos beasties, WE are here to destroy YOU".
Sure. Nobody's arguing that either.

[rkiviman]

The great value of space marines in the imperium is not just their martial capability, but their ability to inspire the imperial forces. When you read of their contact with the IG they are looked on with awe. The marines with their very presence in a theatre of war motivate the guard to fight harder. They perform missions the guard is not able to do as quickly. Such as deep strike missions and deep recon. They by their very nature of mobility are often on the scene first already fighting by the time the IG arrives. They do behave as an army. Just one that's highly mobile, hard hitting and autonomous. They have their place in battle if utilized to their strengths. They select their place, time and method of battle. They have centuries of combat experience to rely on. Do you really want to get rid of that or utilize it to your greatest gain?

[Sitnam]

The defense of Macragge is a good exception, a large-scale operation that the Ultramarines undertook mostly alone. It's not clear to me that without Imperial reinforcements the Ultramarines would have been able to hold Macragge, but it's still an inspiring feat of arms. Although Macragge was a UM operation, iirc the Ultramar PDF (Probably one of the best PDF's in the Imperium, seeing as how they are the UM's little brothers) was heavily involved in the fighting. While PDF's aren't always equal to IG, I think this adds to the fact your are arguing: That Space Marines need regular humans in some cases (As the hammer Imperium, bludgeoning its enemies with pure power) and the Guard need the Space Marines in some cases (As the spear, cutting and stabbing at strategic points.

[Duke]

@ Nabteryal: I appreciate your arguments. Your right, Marines and Guard need eachother. Sure in any given engagement one could have possibly done it alone... But it isn't the way things go.

the only thing that was rubbing me wrong was the fact that a certain someone never provides examples in their argument.

At this point I think we can agree that Space Marines are practical. This doesn't mean that IG isn't, or that the IG is worthless. What it does mean is that they are different forces for different roles and the one compliments the other. As such both are practical, and the existence of both is the reason the Imperium can stay around... plus we all know that the only worthless fighting divison of the imperium is the SoB (lol).

Duke

[Melissia]

Duke: Marines are so rare that they barely make any effect at all except on a few major battles. That's fact by the way, not opinion. There's likely to be dozens if not hundreds of planets per loyalist Marine. While it's true that the Imperium would slowly fall apart without the Marines, without the Guard, the Imperium would cease to exist. The Marines are nowhere near as important as the Guard, never have been since the Horus Heresy (And even then, they were supported by conventional forces anyway).

As for examples?

Sabbat Wars Crusade is the biggest one that springs to mind. Any War of Faith (also involves the Sororitas often as well, but the Guard/PDF are usually present in them) would also qualify. A few of the Cain novels spring to mind, although they tend to be more counter-attack type actions. Every single major crusade ever since and including the Great Crusade.

Honestly, I find a hard time thinking of campaigns which actually mattered that did not involve the Guard as a major player. Even the Battle for Macragge owed a lot to Papa Smurf's pet PDF/Guard, whom helped defend Macragge IIRC (But then of course they never get any credit), and you know that most Marine homeworlds also have PDF which are under the control of governing Marines, the PDF defending the homeworlds of the Astartes while they're off in battle along with the garrison forces of the Astartes, if any.

Marines may be present in any or all of these, but that's irrelevant. The Guard does go on the offensive, frequently. More frequently than Marines do. You forget, 99.99 (repeating) percent of all battles that take place in the Imperium involve the Guard or PDF. Offense AND defense and everything inbetween. Other factions of the Imperium may be present, but only the Guard are omnipresent.

[Duke]

Duke: ...While it's true that the Imperium would slowly fall apart without the Marines...

Thank you Melissa, that is all I needed to prove the point that Space Marines are practical.

As far as the IG. I have never began to think that IG is useless, etc.

From my military experience I know that the best force is always combined arms, though each branch likes to claim superiority.

In connection with that, my comment about Guard not being offensive was only to solicit responses that said "Sure Marines are offensive, and good at it... but so are Guard." The purpose of that was to get most of the people off the attack stance on Marines and on to the defensive stance of the IG. Objective achieved.

Everyone knows that both Astartes and Guard are good on Offense and Defense, my only hope in this whole thread was to show that Space marines are practical and I think I have done that.

closing statements M.?

With respect, :)
Duke

[Melissia]

No, I merely said they were effective, not that they were practical. I personally think that they are only somewhat practical, and would be more practical if they were under the command of the lord generals of the battle (or whomever is leading the crusade), so that they have to answer to someone for their actions or inactions.

Their independence is useful at times, but most of the time it is a hindrance. Something with such high production cost and yet you cannot control it? It is a recipe for disaster, and has led to disaster very frequently.

[Duke]

We're not talking effectiveness, but practicality. How effective something is is irrelevant if it's so expensive/rare/hard to produce/unreliable that it is impractical. Marines (along with their equipment) are all of the above.

Synopsis: Were not talking about effective, marines are impractical... Correct?


No, I merely said they were effective, not that they were practical. I personally think that they are only somewhat practical, and would be more practical if they were under the command of the lord generals of the battle (or whomever is leading the crusade), so that they have to answer to someone for their actions or inactions.

Their independence is useful at times, but most of the time it is a hindrance. Something with such high production cost and yet you cannot control it? It is a recipe for disaster, and has led to disaster very frequently.


Synopsis: Marines are effective, they are also partially practical... Correct?

Im confused... Are we talking about effectivness or not? Are Astartes Practical or not?

As far as the argument of putting the Chapters under the command of the Lord Generals, I would be open to hearing argument, as it stands now I think I disagree. I think that an avg. Marine Captain (in theory) would be better trained/ more experienced than the average Lord general. IMHO.

As always it is a pleasure M.

Duke

[Lord Azaghul]

No, I merely said they were effective, not that they were practical. I personally think that they are only somewhat practical, and would be more practical if they were under the command of the lord generals of the battle (or whomever is leading the crusade), so that they have to answer to someone for their actions or inactions.

Their independence is useful at times, but most of the time it is a hindrance. Something with such high production cost and yet you cannot control it? It is a recipe for disaster, and has led to disaster very frequently.

Not to jump in the middle of this pleasant argument/debate. Melissia's statement is actually about where I was thinking.

I agree that they have there uses, but my purpose of asking 'practical' could be paraphrased "are SM the best solution for the job that they do"

Much of the sabbat conquest was guardsmen retaking worlds too valuable too bombard to dust, and yes we know that the astartes were involved, but it seems to me that the planets would still have been retaken without their help, but more guardsmen would have died.

I think the arguments for SM being practical is closer to the 'special forces' arguments presented early.

[Aldramelech]

Never mind are Space Marines practical, what about their recruitment techniques?

The Blood Trails........

Lets travel to a planet light years away, select suitable specimens of humanity and force them to kill each other until only a few are left, then put them through the transformation that they may or may not live through!

Stupider then the British Army, and thats saying something.

[Nabterayl]

I think there's at least two different perspectives we need to keep separate when we discuss the practicality of the Astartes - the military and the non-military.

Military Perspective:
You say you've got military experience, Duke. I don't know at what level, but let's take a small-scale example. Suppose your squad's SAW gunner was not actually a part of your squad, but a contractor hired directly by your nation's chief executive. Suppose he felt zero obligation to take orders from anybody in your TO&E, from your squad leader to the commanding officer of the entire theatre of operations. Suppose he similarly felt zero obligation to respect your rules of engagement, your strategy, or your operational objectives. Suppose he felt that his own survival was more important than the survival of you and your squadmates, because in the long run, he felt that he will contribute more to the war effort than the rest of you put together. Finally, suppose that he really is the best damn SAW gunner your country has ever produced, and that his patriotism is beyond reproach.

Now compare that guy to a regular SAW gunner who's part of your squad.

As a platoon commander, would you rather have the superstar free agent or the regular soldier accompanying your men in the field? I'm not a veteran myself, so I'm interested in your perspective, but I suspect that personally, I'd rather have the regular fellow. I don't care how good you are - you put yourself above the men you fight beside, and I don't want you around. I don't care that the superstar would willingly lay down his life for of his fellow contractors. I don't care if he has esprit de corps for blood when it comes to his fellow contractors. What I care about is how he will treat my men.

Now suppose that somebody in your government floated the idea of replacing all SAW gunners with these superstar free agents, almost all of whom felt like the man I described above. Would you, as a platoon commander, consider that "practical?"

I probably wouldn't. While it would be great to radically increase the lethality of my SAW gunners, on balance, I'd prefer good soldiers to rock stars, even if the rock stars were good soldiers with respect to each other.

Political Perspective
But now suppose that, as a government official, you're keenly aware that your regular army is monumentally inefficient, riddled with corruption and incompetence, and nonsensically organized. I might look on the "practicality" of the rock star contractors much more favorably, from that perspective.

"Real World" Perspective
Now ask a question that almost no guardsman of any rank would dare to ask, and few would probably even think of. Suppose that, as a platoon commander, you're aware that the rock star contractors have a much more sensible organization, better logistics, and have more combat experience than all but the top one or two percent of soldiers in your army (and that their top one or two percent leave yours in the dust). Would you not think that the most practical thing is to find a way for your army to benefit from the organization and experience of the contractors, rather than having them continue to act as free agents?

This is, I think, a decent analogy for the relationship between the Astartes and the Navy/Guard, and I think it more or less holds at any scale (e.g., it could be a company of rock star contractors, and you're a regimental commander). The Astartes are rock stars, but they're still totally outside the Navy and the Guard, and they aren't shy about letting anybody else know about it. How "practical" they are depends, I think, on which meta-universe point of view you take:

From the point of view of outside the Navy/Guard, I personally think they look pretty damn practical, in that they make up for some of the Navy/Guard's serious shortcomings.
From the point of view of inside the Navy/Guard, I think they look pretty damn stupid, because they introduce needless disunity of command.*
From the point of view of outside the Imperium, I personally think both the Astartes and the Guard look pretty damn stupid. As poorly organized as the space marine chapters are (and I have a very low opinion of their TO&E, personally), the Guard is organized much, much worse. In short, the Imperium has a more effective model of military organization right under its nose, and refuses to adapt the lessons of that model to its primary fighting force.**

* I know that, fluff-wise, your average naval rating or guardsman still looks on the Astartes as almost a miraculous intervention, so I suppose if I were your average lord commander, I would too. But the point of this thread is to look at things from a meta-universe perspective, and if I were a lord commander with a meta-universe perspective, I think I'd be pretty damn pissed at the way the Astartes behaved with respect to my men. Of course, if I were a lord commander with a meta-universe perspective, I'd be pretty damn pissed at the way the Departmento Munitorum behaved with respect to my men, too.

** That's not to say that I think the most practical thing would be for all million space marines to become Imperial Guard trainers - I kind of doubt that space marines would be very good at passing on their skills to non-space marines due to pride; they'd consider it beneath them. But I'm still not sure that having them outside the Guard is the smartest way to go, from a meta-perspective. It's kind of like the arguments people made earlier in the 20th century about paratroopers - you want to train an entire regiment to a standard such that the lowliest private in the regiment would be fit to lead a squad of regular troops, and then you want to group all of those men into their own little unit and only use them for the riskiest operations? Is that really more practical than using them to raise the bar of the entire army? Sure it gives you a capability you wouldn't otherwise have, but is that extra capability really better than improving the quality of your entire fighting force? Maybe, but it's sure not obvious.

At the very least, there's no denying that the structure of the Guard is stupid, and I think the space marine chapters demonstrate several ways in which it could be improved.

[Aldramelech]

But now suppose that, as a government official, you're keenly aware that your regular army is monumentally inefficient, riddled with corruption and incompetence, and nonsensically organized.

Ahh you've served in the British Army!

[Duke]

@ Nabterayl: Great arguments/ posistions! You are spot on that practicallity depends on the Point of view.

Let me speak to your questions:
1. Militray perspective: I was an Officer in the US Air Force. My role was that of ABM (Air Battle Manager). I was the guy saying what could go where, very often it included sending 'hot shot,' pilots to help 'ground pounders,' so I have had to deal with the "I am god's gift to war mentality," a lot. As such I have heard this argument a thousand times. "Air Force is impractical because it is too expensive to train and outfit a pilot, etc."..."We could train and arm XYZ number of soldiers for the same cost as a F-22"... "Air Force can't capture and control like Army/ Marines can." Generally speaking special assets of a combined force army live by their own rules. The "Superstar sniper," is not under the control of his unit, but is attatched to it. I have heard people make this argument so many times in the safety of the barracks, but the second they are pinned down they start crackling for that superstar pilot everytime. Unfortunatley (And I know from experience) sometimes the superstar doesn't respond to the unit because he is needed elsewhere, but this doesn't mean that he is impractical... In a theater Astartes aren't attatched to IG squads, they are a completly different branch of the military, and as such have different objectives.


2. Political: Agreed.

3. Real Life: Ideally I would like to see a truly combined force, much like those that operated in the crusade, Most likely they would be under the command of the Astartes rather than the Guard... However, now the goals of the Guard and the Astartes are so different that they cannot work as well together. During the Crusade the goals were the same, now is a different story. PLus their time evalutaion is way off. (A Dark Angel would consider 100 years a good investment if they got one Fallen. A Lord General would not.)

Conclusion: Again, I think we can all agree that combined arms is the most beneficial, but I still have not seen suffcient argument that Space Marines are impractical...

Real life practicality: Multi-Million dollar planes that cannot be detected by radar and can eliminate a heavily armoured target miles away without risk of counterattack.

Real life Impracitcality: An Aresnal of hundreds of nuclear bombs, that if used would also kill the user and the target.

Marines are more like the expensive, yet practical, planes that they are like Nulear Bombs.

Duke

[Melissia]

Duke, practical and effective are not the same thing. To give a few examples...

Sending ten thousand nukes to destroy an enemy's defenses is effective, but not practical. After all that planet will be useless afterwards.

Using a baneblade's cannon to destroy a single Grot is effective, but not practical. There are better places to point that thing.

Using a laspistol to kill an Astartes is potentially effective, but not practical. After all it can actually kill them in a single shot... but do you really want to be the one trying it?


Marines are effective. They kill **** and blow **** up and take **** and secure **** and so on and so forth. But they are ludicrously expensive to make (taking entire planets or solar systems just to maintain a few hundred of them!) and extremely independent, causing them to be too unreliable. The average Space Marine captain knows much less about commanding grand armies than the average Lord General. Because he never does it. The Lord Generals command millions of men at a time in their multi-century careers. Even chapter masters don't have as much experience as a Lord General does in mass formations and grand strategy. Nor, in this current setup, would they need to know it. Marines do not fight in massed formations anymore.

[Nabterayl]

1. Militray perspective: I was an Officer in the US Air Force. My role was that of ABM (Air Battle Manager). I was the guy saying what could go where, very often it included sending 'hot shot,' pilots to help 'ground pounders,' so I have had to deal with the "I am god's gift to war mentality," a lot. As such I have heard this argument a thousand times. "Air Force is impractical because it is too expensive to train and outfit a pilot, etc."..."We could train and arm XYZ number of soldiers for the same cost as a F-22"... "Air Force can't capture and control like Army/ Marines can." Generally speaking special assets of a combined force army live by their own rules. The "Superstar sniper," is not under the control of his unit, but is attatched to it. I have heard people make this argument so many times in the safety of the barracks, but the second they are pinned down they start crackling for that superstar pilot everytime. Unfortunatley (And I know from experience) sometimes the superstar doesn't respond to the unit because he is needed elsewhere, but this doesn't mean that he is impractical... In a theater Astartes aren't attatched to IG squads, they are a completly different branch of the military, and as such have different objectives.
I'm certainly sympathetic to the view that some capabilities are necessary, and simply do cost more than other capabilities on a per-unit-of-combat-power (if we can imagine there were such a thing) basis. It sounds like we're both agreed that the Astartes are not used to their full, theoretical potential, and that that isn't the same thing as being "impractical." (In)efficiency is not the same thing - as (im)practicality.

[Duke]

@Nabterayl: I think we are developing agreement, I always appreciate someone who can voice their point of view with examples and an open mind... You've changed some of my first opinions as well.

In general response: Nabterayl and I are able to come into better agreement through defention and clearification of terms and posistions... In an attempt to extend that I present the following from miriam webster. Let's compare Marines to the following defention of practicality and see if it helps at all...

Main Entry: 1prac·ti·cal
Pronunciation: \ˈprak-ti-kəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin practicus, from Greek praktikos, from prassein to pass over, fare, do; akin to Greek peran to pass through — more at fare
Date: 15th century

1 a : of, relating to, or manifested in practice or action : not theoretical or ideal <a practical question> <for all practical purposes> b : being such in practice or effect : virtual <a practical failure>
2 : actively engaged in some course of action or occupation <a practical farmer>
3 : capable of being put to use or account : useful <he had a practical knowledge of French>
4 a : disposed to action as opposed to speculation or abstraction b (1) : qualified by practice or practical training <a good practical mechanic> (2) : designed to supplement theoretical training by experience
5 : concerned with voluntary action and ethical decisions <practical reason>

1. Yes, (in their world) they are in practice or action; they are not theoretical.
2. Yes, they are activelt engaged in a course of action (though some may not like their particular course)
3. Yes, they are useful
4. Yes, they are VERY disposed to action as opposed to speculation or abstraction.
B. They are qualified by practice
C. They supplement theoretical training by experience
5. Yes, even though what is ethical to them may not be ethical to others (IG)

Are there any counterpoints to these defenitions? Because from the looks of it Space Marines, by pure defenition, are practical.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

EDIT: @Duke, I don't think Melissia's using "practical" in any of those senses. I think she's using "practical" in the sense of "within one's capability and reasonably tailored to the desired end."

For instance, although you can use a construction crane to move your luggage into the back of a car, doing so is not "practical" because (i) the desired end does not require such an elaborate mechanism and (ii) the elaborate mechanism actually increases the amount of time and effort it takes to achieve the desired end.

As another example, solving the world's landfill problems by rounding up all the trash on the planet and shooting it into the sun in a rocket ship is not "practical" because nobody has the capability to actually round up all the trash on the planet, or to build a rocket capable of propelling that much mass into the sun.


Duke, practical and effective are not the same thing. To give a few examples...

Sending ten thousand nukes to destroy an enemy's defenses is effective, but not practical. After all that planet will be useless afterwards.

Using a baneblade's cannon to destroy a single Grot is effective, but not practical. There are better places to point that thing.

Using a laspistol to kill an Astartes is potentially effective, but not practical. After all it can actually kill them in a single shot... but do you really want to be the one trying it?

I don't think anybody's arguing with that.


Marines are effective. They kill **** and blow **** up and take **** and secure **** and so on and so forth. But they are ludicrously expensive to make (taking entire planets or solar systems just to maintain a few hundred of them!)

That's ... not actually clear to me. Ultramar is a huge investment of resources for a very small return in offensive power (yes, the Ultramar PDF dwarfs the Ultramarines in size, but unlike the Guard, their job really is to defend individual planets, so the force that Ultramar can project is pretty much limited to the Ultramarines themselves). On the other hand, Ultramar is also apparently one of the best places to live in the entire Imperium, so it's not like the Ultramarines are sucking the place dry with their exorbitant demands.

As for other chapters ... what exactly do they require to maintain them? The actual space marine impact on places like Fenris and Baal is pretty limited. For the most part, the natives of those planets live their lives with basically zero interference. Every now and then the space marines will take a handful of kids away, but that's ... about it. True, nobody else is really making use of Fenris or Baal, but they're just deathworlds. Their only real resource is manpower, and it's not like the Imperial Guard is screaming for more deathworlds from which to recruit, right?


and extremely independent, causing them to be too unreliable.
Well, yes. I don't think anybody's arguing that either. But isn't this really more a question of efficiency? I mean, we could level the same arguments about the Guard. Having an infantry regiment rely on a second regiment for armored support, a third regiment for artillery support, and an entirely different branch of the service for air support isn't exactly a reliable way to get support to your infantrymen. That doesn't make the Imperial Guard impractical; it make it inefficient. Or if it does make it impractical, then all we're really saying is that the entire Imperial military machine is very poorly organized, which I think we also all agree on.


The average Space Marine captain knows much less about commanding grand armies than the average Lord General. Because he never does it. The Lord Generals command millions of men at a time in their multi-century careers. Even chapter masters don't have as much experience as a Lord General does in mass formations and grand strategy. Nor, in this current setup, would they need to know it. Marines do not fight in massed formations anymore.
I don't think anybody's really arguing about this one, either. But that doesn't make space marines impractical. It makes using space marines as lords general impractical, and as we're all agreed, nobody does that.

If you're looking for somebody to say that space marines are the final word in the Imperial military and the Imperium would be much better off if it just replaced the Guard with a bunch more space marine chapters, I'm certainly not going to be the guy to say that. I don't think Duke is, either. Everything about the Astartes, from the limited amount of ammunition a tactical marine carries to the light and speedy design of their vehicles to their lack of real artillery and battle tanks to the design of their strike cruisers and battle barges as glorified transports, points to them being commando units on steroids (i.e., elite [light] infantry specializing in the assault of conventional military targets).

That being the case, I see two questions to ask ourselves:
Is it worth the expenditure of any amount of resources to give the Imperium commando capability?
If so, are the resources used to create and maintain these commando units being put to efficient use?
The answer to the first depends on your military philosophy, I suppose. My personal answer is yes, that any full-fledged military machine must have commando capability. I think Duke would agree with me. I'm not sure whether you would or not.

Assuming you answer the first question yes, the question is then whether the resources involved in creating and maintaining a space marine chapter are being put to efficient use. We need to discount the commando combat power a space marine represents by some factor, because his chapter's independence means that that combat power is not always available (not in the sense of "marines can't be everywhere at once" but in the sense of "nobody can make a space marine be anywhere"). Of course, we'd also need to discount the commando combat power a storm trooper represents by some factor, because the nature of the Departmento Munitorum means that his combat power is not always available, either.

I don't think we can really quantify either discount factor with precision, but my personal sense of things is that some space marine chapters are more efficient (in a resources consumed to combat power usefully projected) than others. Examples:

The Ultramarines take ten (formerly twelve) fairly productive planets and contribute 1000 space marines to the Imperium, plus "several hundred regiments" that can be contributed to the Guard "as needed," according to Lexicanum. I'm willing to grant that if Ultramar were not under the control of the Ultramarines, it might ultimately contribute more combat power to the Imperium. If somebody were to argue that the main contribution of the Ultramarines was in making a really nice place for people to live, I wouldn't disagree.
The Dark Angels spend a fair amount of time hunting for ex-Dark Angels, for essentially no better reason than because they're afraid that somebody will find out there are ex-Dark Angels. With all due respect to the Dark Angels' secret shame, I don't think that's really the best way to help humanity as a whole.
The Blood Angels take a single radiation-blasted, fairly primitive deathworld with a population barely north of 100,000 to maintain themselves, and in return contribute 1000 space marines to the Imperium. I don't know what good 100,000 deathworlders would do the Imperium otherwise - raise just a handful of regiments out of that population and you'll quickly doom the rest of the population to a slow extinction. Baal isn't like Krieg, a radiation-blasted deathworld that can churn out millions upon millions of useful guardsmen.
Of those three, the Blood Angels seem to me the most efficient in terms of resources consumed to combat power usefully projected. But the Blood Angels also seem the most typical of the lot, in that they "rule" over a very small amount of real estate that is not in a position to be easily put to any other useful purpose.

So, even discounting for the independent nature of a chapter, I don't think it's obviously impractical to create commando combat power through the current space marine system.

Could you create more commando combat power through a non-independent space marine chapter? Sure, maybe. If you combined non-independent space marine chapters with even a partial reorganization of the Imperial Guard, the answer jumps to almost certainly yes. I'm pretty sure Duke and I would both agree about that. But then we start getting into the what-ifs of how the entire Imperial military machine could be reorganized to be more efficient, which is getting pretty far afield.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Duke, practical and effective are not the same thing. To give a few examples...

Sending ten thousand nukes to destroy an enemy's defenses is effective, but not practical. After all that planet will be useless afterwards.

Using a baneblade's cannon to destroy a single Grot is effective, but not practical. There are better places to point that thing.

Using a laspistol to kill an Astartes is potentially effective, but not practical. After all it can actually kill them in a single shot... but do you really want to be the one trying it?


Marines are effective. They kill **** and blow **** up and take **** and secure **** and so on and so forth. But they are ludicrously expensive to make (taking entire planets or solar systems just to maintain a few hundred of them!) and extremely independent, causing them to be too unreliable. The average Space Marine captain knows much less about commanding grand armies than the average Lord General. Because he never does it. The Lord Generals command millions of men at a time in their multi-century careers. Even chapter masters don't have as much experience as a Lord General does in mass formations and grand strategy. Nor, in this current setup, would they need to know it. Marines do not fight in massed formations anymore.


Mel, you never see a Astartes as a Warmaster anyway. We tried that once and it REALLY didn't work. You do see them on the War COuncil under a single elected leader though. Sinc eit is a big universe I will grant you some marines are exactly as you say, self-serving and inefficent. But during Armageddon 3 Helbrecht single handedly reorganized the entire Imperial Fleet into a highly efficient combined arms force under the command of Admiral Parol, essentially winning the war in space. Calgar was commander of 7 Chapters during the Balur Crusades and he got them all to think and work together and that was one of the times he has done that. Grimnar also took control of all Astartes around the EoT and got them to work together WITH the IG and IN to fight Chaos. There are just as many examples of marine coming in and cooperating. For instance the Iron Knights would deploy assault squads alongside IG company leadership so they could exploit any gains made by the IG company, thats cooperation at platoon/company level. On Taros the Raptors pulled security for the Imperial Army Group, thats not particularly glorious, but they were fast enough to intercept the Tau.

When people want Astartes to be under a Warmasters command, they need to step back and actually first understand what a Warmaster does. He is in charge of STRATEGIC LEVEL PLANNING, the entire course of the war. His staff takes his orders and makes the OPERATION LEVEL (as in theatre level or 40K equivalent) then those guys trickle down to the TACTICAL LEVEL (regimental command). Marines are almost always at the tactical level because of their small size, so they don't deal directly with the Warmaster, they deal with the lower tier guys. Unless they are a-holes who need written invitation in triplicate before committing to an operation.


Also, not all Chapters have homeworlds, some are fleet-based, and they are the most efficient marines out there. They have the highest op-tempo, maintain all of their own equipment, make their own munitions, recruit from wherever, and so on. The INQ and HLoT dont like that because you can't nail them down, or hold them hostage by threatening their homeworld.

[Duke]

So I think we are coming to agreement.

- Space Marines are practical, however, they could be more practical if the Imperial military machine was more efficent.


Something that is impractical: Imperator titans.

Duke

[Melissia]

They are practical as long as they work with you instead of against you or somehow interfering with your goals. Which you cannot ensure that they will go either way, due to their attitude problems and their independence. Can you really say something so unreliable is practical?


As for titan legions? I'd agree there, they are somewhat impractical... A few of them would be just fine, but entire armies of them... eeeeh...

[Nabterayl]

They are practical as long as they work with you instead of against you or somehow interfering with your goals. Which you cannot ensure that they will go either way, due to their attitude problems and their independence. Can you really say something so unreliable is practical?

Structurally this bothers me a lot. However, I can't say that something is impractical because it is theoretically unsound if I have results to look at, and the results do not bear out the worst predictions of the theory. I think that is the case with the Astartes. Given a completely independent fighting force, you might expect lots of instances where the foreigners fail to do their job. But I don't think that's what we see space marines doing. There are plenty of instances where space marines have done less than one might want, or something that nobody really cared about except themselves. But I can think of only two where they actively worked against the men and women they fought beside.

One of those is Culln's behavior on Beta Anphelion IV. While I personally find his behavior morally repugnant, it's not clear to me that it was impractical. In a situation where some troops have to be left behind to die, it's not obviously impractical for the super commandos to evacuate themselves rather than the mere commandos. Again, I find it repugnant, but I'm not prepared to say it was "impractical." I'm sure there are more situations where space marines have acted this way - but if the facts were analogous, I'd merely call it repugnant, not impractical.

The second instance I can think of are the various times that space marines have gone rogue. But I'm not prepared to call that an impracticality either. Are there better ways of ensuring the loyalty of your fighting men? Apparently there are, as the Grey Knights and the Sisters attest. But it's not clear to me that the space marine regime causes marines to go rogue in a but-for sense. After all, Imperial Guardsmen go rogue too, and their lives aren't anything like a space marine's. So while one might wish for better safeguards amongst the Astartes, I'm not prepared to say that something the Astartes are affirmatively doing causes marines to go rogue - as if there was something they could stop doing that would decrease the incidence of rebellion. And that is not "impractical" in my book.

Is there more that the Astartes could do to increase their practicality in the area of loyalty? Yes, of course. There's lots more that the Astartes could do to increase their practicality in other areas, too. But while their track record is full of /facepalm moments, I don't think in their present state they're so lacking in practicality that they can fairly be labeled "impractical." Just "less practical than they could be."

[Marshal2Crusaders]

They are practical as long as they work with you instead of against you or somehow interfering with your goals. Which you cannot ensure that they will go either way, due to their attitude problems and their independence. Can you really say something so unreliable is practical?


As for titan legions? I'd agree there, they are somewhat impractical... A few of them would be just fine, but entire armies of them... eeeeh...

I'd like to point out, while you may get a different flavor beneath the wrapping of each space marine(some are helpful, others fruit-filled) there is a good chance anything they do will help you. They are indeed more random than, say, the sisters who are entirely 'one track' in the devotion to destroying the Emperor's enemies.

[Duke]

Here, here...

I completly agree that among some of the other examples of impracticality that have been presented Sisters are among those...

As far as Astartes go Im going to say again that 99% of us are in agreement, just waiting for Melissa to get off the Sister-lover/ Astartes- Hater bus :)

Duke

[Nabterayl]

I completly agree that among some of the other examples of impracticality that have been presented Sisters are among those...
Not sure whether you're saying sisters are impractical or an example of an area of "practicality" where the Imperium has done better than it has with the Astartes (i.e., sisters are more "practical" in the sense that they have a better loyalty track record - a statement which I at least find uncontroversial).

The overall practicality of sisters is a topic for a different thread (one that I'd love to have, actually). This probably isn't the place for it.


As far as Astartes go Im going to say again that 99% of us are in agreement, just waiting for Melissa to get off the Sister-lover/ Astartes- Hater bus :)
Hey now, be nice ;) I hate Astartes too - they're probably my favorite thing about 40K that I love to hate.

[Sangre]

As far as Astartes go Im going to say again that 99% of us are in agreement, just waiting for Melissa to get off the Sister-lover/ Astartes- Hater bus :)

Duke

Hope you brought a folding chair and a book to read. Might be a while.

[Duke]

@ Nabterayl: I was speaking more to the overall practicallity... Your right in that they have had an excellent loyalty track record. (which I would also like to have... New 10 page thread?lol)

As far as M. goes, I think it is generally known that I poke and prod in jest...

Duke

[Duke]

Hope you brought a folding chair and a book to read. Might be a while.

Shut up sangre, lol


(Just joking buddy)

Duke

[Aldramelech]

shut up sangre, lol


(just joking buddy)

duke

lmao!

[Melissia]

Lol Sangre. You're really trying too hard, trolls need more subtlety than that.

just waiting for Melissa to get off the Sister-lover/ Astartes- Hater bus :)I think you're around five or so years too late. Back when I actually did try to get into it a Marine army, my ideas were continually bashed as "unfluffy" and so I dropped the army in the conceptual stage and picked up a Sisters army instead. And nowadays I see so much marine crap that I can't help but find Astartes to be boring and overdone, and the more they're talked about the more boring they become to me. At this point, I'm rather glad I was discouraged from playing the army, the three armies I have today are more unique and interesting than any Marine army can ever hope to be (<3 my Sisters, Guard, and Orks) But isn't this off-topic?

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Lol Sangre. You're really trying too hard, trolls need more subtlety than that.
I think you're around five or so years too late. Back when I actually did try to get into it a Marine army, my ideas were continually bashed as "unfluffy" and so I dropped the army in the conceptual stage and picked up a Sisters army instead. And nowadays I see so much marine crap that I can't help but find Astartes to be boring and overdone, and the more they're talked about the more boring they become to me. At this point, I'm rather glad I was discouraged from playing the army, the three armies I have today are more unique and interesting than any Marine army can ever hope to be (<3 my Sisters, Guard, and Orks) But isn't this off-topic?

Actually, I think we are getting to the roots of the REAL Problem ;) .

[Sangre]

Moi? A troll? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

PS: I'd write books about the Bright Talons if the Black Library would have me. Of course they'd probably think they're a cheap rip-off of the Soul Drinkers because they're terrible, terrible people.

[Melissia]

Actually, I think we are getting to the roots of the REAL Problem ;) .

That is a big problem, this is true. A lot of people stifle creativity by bashing others' ideas. I was guilty of this myself some time ago... I'd bash people and their armies if they did fallen Sisters as it's unfluffy (And frankly overdone as well). Now, I still say it's unfluffy, but hey, if you enjoy it, go for it, it's your army. Don't really care myself. I've seen some wonderful conversions for a Khornate Sisters army, regardless of its fluff validity I wouldn't mind playing against it simply because it's awesome looking.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

That is a big problem, this is true. A lot of people stifle creativity by bashing others' ideas. I was guilty of this myself some time ago... I'd bash people and their armies if they did fallen Sisters as it's unfluffy (And frankly overdone as well). Now, I still say it's unfluffy, but hey, if you enjoy it, go for it, it's your army. Don't really care myself. I've seen some wonderful conversions for a Khornate Sisters army, regardless of its fluff validity I wouldn't mind playing against it simply because it's awesome looking.

Mel, I would pay for you to build whatever Marine force those *******s stifled. I assume it was female Space Marines? But I shouldn't assume that. But I am dying to know what young idea Melissa had torn away from her by the cruel internet.



J/K about the paying or your army thing. I have yet to see any of your models anyway ;)

[Aldramelech]

I too would love to see Lady M's army.

[Marshal2Crusaders]

Lady M! It fits very well.