Yes Zombies can go to 35, stupid being stupid people!

[Flammenwerfer13]

The whole argument that "Zombies limited to 10" BS. Everyone with any sense knows GW will FAQ to say yes Zombies can go up to 35 per unit. Now the issues; "and cannot purchase options" everyone assumes all options when the only option you can actually purchase are the Marks for the whole unit. All other options are either "add to", "exchange", "or replace". The weapons are dealt with in that zombies only get a single CCW and guns are used for clubbing. Sorry to split hairs but people are really whining an over-reading to much into the rules. So short answer, yes you can add to the unit thus getting35 zombies as it's not a purchase. You just can't purchase "Marks of XXX"



Seriously it's not rocket science.


Meant stop being stupid lol

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

INCORRECT...nuff said.

[ElectricPaladin]

The whole argument that "I can post whatever I want" BS. Everyone with any sense knows the mods will ban you to say "no, you can't make obnoxious and insulting posts." Now the issues; "abut it's a free country" everyone assumes free when in fact freedom has nothing to do with what you type in a forum. All other options are either "be nice", "be polite", "or go the hell away". The politeness is dealt with in that posters only get so much slack before Tzeentch's Dark Agent bans you. Sorry to split hairs but your post was really abrasive. So short answer, no you can not post obnoxiously.

Seriously it's not rocket science.

Meant stop being stupid lol


That's better.

[Flammenwerfer13]

CORRECT..nuff said.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

TO's arent gonna let ppl run more than 10 until it is FAQ'd. period. Now, I WANT them to be ran in 35 man block, hell I love nurgle...I wish to run like 70 zombies on the board. And I believe that GW will fix this issue, but as it stands the answer is no. In a tournament setting, the TO is going to go with what is printed in the codex. If this is an issue send games workshop an email and ask for a ruling. I did, and they told me 10. Now I fully understand that the customer service ppl are not the game developers and it is just their interpretation, but most TO's if they have time will contact customer service and go with what they say.

Seriously everyone needs to calm down and not call ppl supid or continue the general immature flaming that they are doing. When it comes down to it there is no reason to get pissed off over something so trivial. If only being able to run 10 man squads for a couple of months before an faq is released ruins your whole gaming experience perhaps there is a bigger problem at play, one that doesnt even involve the codex at all, one that can be solved by looking in a mirror. The codex has so many options to be explored and different builds to utilize that can tide over even the biggest zombie lover out there until the FAQ comes out. Have fun and dont sweat the trivial stuff.

[Denzark]

In exactly 1 month from today I will be at GW Throne of Skulls tournament. I will ask the TOs there. For me what is ruled whilst sat at GW HQ is as good as FAQ'd.

I doubt we will be hearing you are limited to 10. Squads of 10 will not sell miniatures.

[Gir]

TO's arent gonna let ppl run more than 10 until it is FAQ'd. period. Now, I WANT them to be ran in 35 man block, hell I love nurgle...I wish to run like 70 zombies on the board. And I believe that GW will fix this issue, but as it stands the answer is no. In a tournament setting, the TO is going to go with what is printed in the codex.

It will only be 10 if TO's can't read.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Would this not belong in the rules/tactics area, not general discussion?

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

general consensus is going with 10, not 35. but thats neither here nor there. I agree that they will get FAQ'd to 35. Personally I want them to be 35, but it is not written that way currently. I wish that these codices were edited better before publication, because these sort of issues would be limited if better wording had been used in the first place. Often ppl who play different armies will disagree with things of this nature just because they feel it is OP and dont wish to face it in a match. My stance on this issue is firm, not out of a dislike for the unit, but because I believe the way it is written to be clear in the fact that the unit cannot take options, and taking additional cultists is CLEARLY listed under the OPTIONS heading. That being said, Flammenwerfer and Gir I totally agree with you guys on the INTENT of this unit. The intention is to be able to have "zombie hordes" and I wish very much that GW releases an FAQ and does so very soon, in which it says "No options "beyond taking additional cultists" may be taken. Because then I could run 35 man blobs of zombies and no one could agrue the fact, and at the very least all of our lives would be easier when we play games.

[DarkLink]

CORRECT..nuff said.

An eloquent argument, albeit one disconnected from a sound understanding of logic and the english language. I, however, assume that you're merely allowing your emotional response to cloud your judgement, because I feel it is poor form to call someone stupid if they view something differently from myself and GW's notoriety for imprecise rules carries over to this particular situation.


TO's arent gonna let ppl run more than 10 until it is FAQ'd. period.

Well, they might, but only if they exercise their implied authority to implement house rules. But GW's actually done reasonably well with their FAQ's as of late, so this might not be an issue for long.


That's better.

+1

[pauljc]

I would also lean on the side of the 35 zombie unit. It states that the converted Chaos Cultists cannot purchase options. But Chaos Cultists don't purchase more Chaos Cultists. The unit can buy extra Cultists. The way I read it, it is worded as one being a unit thing, and the purchasing options being a 'per model' thing.

On the other hand, that's quite a cheap unit for what it can do.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Ten pence worth time...

The way it's written, you can only have 10. When the FAQ comes out, it will state 35 max. We all can see what the intention of the rule is, but there will always be that one person who says 'But the exact wording is...' and although we all know it's pedantic and we can see with our common sense what the rule is SUPPOSED to be, we'll have to just stick with ten man squads for the time being in order to not be branded 'cheats'. Then when it is FAQ'd, you can model Typhus sticking his middle finger up and slap 70 Plague Zombies on the table and go have a smoke and a hot dog whilst your opponent spends forever trying to get rid of them.

I have a game next weekend, I am using two units of ten. In a 1.5K game - it'll do. If you're playing over 2K, you get 2 FOC anyway, so merely include more units of ten. They'll still be annoying as fook.

[Belial69]

Before anybody yells "you're wrong it's ten!!!" The wording of the rule says any cultist units (see page whatever in the army list) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as plague zombies. Plague zombies are cultist that have etc etc and cannot take any options. And again don't just dismiss it offhand. But I'm personally reading this as you've already bought the unit at whatever size before its even nominated to zombiehood.

Just a thought but has the almighty Kelly got a twitter account that anyone could ask him directly?

[magickbk]

It says units of cultists can be nominated. If you want to lose your minds, consider when this nomination takes place. Do you nominate when you write your army list, or when you deploy, or before the game begins? In a tournament, could you decide to take some units as one or the other each game? If before the game, one would assume you write your list, paying for options, and then those options become wasted points.

[Kirsten]

just agree it with your opponent first, the majority of people arguing back and forth about this wont be playing it in a competition anyway, so just talk to one another before the game. if you have a tournament in the near future, the organiser can decide.

[Belial69]

But, but that, that's being reasonable! I thought that was against forum rules ;) All joking aside tho, that's the most sensible thing I've seen here all day. Gonna poll it with my gaming group and get the general concensus.

[Strangleweb]

Right, after a discussion among a group of TOs and longstanding players here is the situation as we see it.

Simply put, Typhus' rule clearly states that cultists "Cannot purchase options".
The unit entry lists the ability to add more cultists under "Options", therefore, RAW, you cannot have more than 10 zombies in a unit.
However, we too think the intention was just prevent the addition of autoguns/flamers etc, and to allow 35 strong zombie units, but this is not what Typhus' unit entry says for now, so until it is FAQed, it's 10 strong squads of zombies in tournaments. In our casual games, 35 strong is allowed.

[inquisitorsog]

just agree it with your opponent first, the majority of people arguing back and forth about this wont be playing it in a competition anyway, so just talk to one another before the game. if you have a tournament in the near future, the organiser can decide.


I look at it like this: when a question is raised, it's pointless to answer it from the "what I like", "how I think most people will interpret it" or any other "soft" sort of position. We should answer the question from the most strict definition possible. What you and I can agree on is one thing. But, I've been in nasty arguments over seemingly stupid interpretations of rules and so I'm never going to advise anyone on the internet in anything other than the most defensible interpretation. This rule specifically talks about purchasing the option, so saying it is a later nomination isn't going to stand up to the scrutiny of many people. When do you nominate it if the nomination comes after buying more troops, but before you buy war gear?

The only defensible approach to get to 35 is that it says "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists who cannot purchase options". You know what? that does sound good. But... someone is going turn around and say that the pluralization there refers to units. You can take "any" therefore you have multiple units called Plague Zombies who were all formerly units called Chaos Cultists. It's ambiguous as to whether that "are" is talking about groups of individuals or groups of groups. And then we'll also have an argument ensuing about "if the cultists can't take options, but the unit can take the option of more cultists, why can't the unit take a mark as the mark is clearly said to be purchased by the unit, not the cultists."

We're all assuming that Kelly messed up and didn't double check the phrasing in the army list. While I think that's probable, I've also been wrong in similar situations before.

[el_tigre]

It's been pointed out by others that the wording is "zombies are chaos cultists that ... cannot purchase options" Surely the correct way to read this is that the restriction on choosing options doesn't come into force until there's a zombie to restrict. Just because the possibility of purchasing additional members of a squad is listed under options doesn't mean the unit cannot be expanded, only that individual chaos cultists can choose no additional wargear. Sure the wording in general is vague, but in choosing to interpret this in the most limiting way possible - despite the fact that the consensus among even the "max. 10" voters seems to be that units at least should be able to go to 35 - people seem to be deliberatly abandoning common sense in favour of provoking what we all know will eventually be a meaningless argument.

[Belial69]

Just out of interest, how many of the 35's play nurgle or chaos at all? And how many of the 10's play anything else rather than chaos?

[Caitsidhe]

I agree that they need to Faq it and/or put it in the errata. It is possible they don't want big blobs of zombies, but rather waves and waves of small units of them. There really is no way to know. From a fluff standpoint it makes no sense that zombies would have the discipline to stay in a huge blob unit anyway. :) In short, we really don't know if it is an error or not. They might not want us to be able to put several 35pt FNP units out there. They might want to limit us to units of ten. They might not. This is why it needs to be addressed because reading it as the RAW it is currently limited to (10). I don't like it either but that is what it says for now.

[inquisitorsog]

people seem to be deliberatly abandoning common sense in favour of provoking what we all know will eventually be a meaningless argument.
You are making a big assumption it's a meaningless argument. I've seen too many cases in my life when the "common sense" interpretation of a game rule turned out to be the wrong one and the RAW that everyone assumed was just poorly worded turned out to be exactly what was intended. Or, that upon the question being put to the designer, something else entirely came out. Don't be surprised if they tell us "35 models ok, but only one unit per army" or something like that.

[Daniel R Weber]

People's common sense differs as well. GW has and always will have shoddy rules-writing here and there. This is simply an example of where they could have been very clear and clean in the wording up front and weren't. That's all.

[el_tigre]

Fair enough. Don't know why I'm getting involved anyway, I should just stop reading these arguments, it only winds me up.

[RGilbert26]

Seeing that i now own a copy of the new codex, i had a look at pg.61 and i read where it says no options, i turn to the cultists page in the army list section and note that more cultists are in the options section, so to me this means you can only have units of 10 zombies. I can see the argument for units of 35 zombies but as it clearly states no options then for now id say units of 10 only.

[Belial69]

Take 6x10 zombies and take Necrosius as your second HQ. Furious Zombies!!! :)

[RGilbert26]

Who?

[Belial69]

Imperial Armour 7. But his rules are in the 2nd character update from FW for free. Sorcerer of Nurgle that give all plague zombies in the army furious assault, lol. Not very fluffy though, as he hates Typhus' guts.

[Rapture]

210 fearless, FNP models? That will certainly make the game... interesting. I can see the reason for the limit and how the wording supports it. I would say that it is not looking good for squads of 35, but stranger things have come from GW's final decisions.

[gcsmith]

210 fearless, FNP models? That will certainly make the game... interesting. I can see the reason for the limit and how the wording supports it. I would say that it is not looking good for squads of 35, but stranger things have come from GW's final decisions.

Which is what? 840 points? with no anti tank and dies in droves anyway? Armies like Tau would struggle I agree, but other armies, not so much.

[DWest]

I am going to argue for the "squad of 35" and here's why: the rule states "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists . . . and cannot purchase options." In this case "Plague Zombie" and "Chaos Cultist" are call-outs for specific models, and so the restriction is applied to a specific model (Chaos Cultist) only; technically, RAW, the Cultist Champion can still buy a Shotgun, and isn't actually a zombie. For a similar example, look at the Space Marine Command Squad: One model may be upgraded from "Veteran" to "Company Champion", and because of that, he may not be given any other options, because all of the options are available for "Veteran" models only.

[DarkLink]

In this case "Plague Zombie" and "Chaos Cultist" are call-outs for specific models, and so the restriction is applied to a specific model (Chaos Cultist) only; technically, RAW, the Cultist Champion can still buy a Shotgun, and isn't actually a zombie.

That sounds like a better argument for "chaos cultists" to refer to the unit and not the individual model, and thus be able to take a larger squad.

[RGilbert26]

Id say it's probably something along the lines of RAW = Units of 10 Zombies only, RAI = Units of 35 zombies.

[Kirsten]

the ten model limit is the way the rule is written certainly, but it will be interesting to see if they FAQ that. Can't say I care either way, I don't plan to take any :P

[Mr Mystery]

Being at work I don't have my book to hand, but normally, there is a sub heading within the unit entry saying 'options'.

If memory serves, increasing the size of the unit does not normally come listed under this?

[Kirsten]

it is under options yes, and is in 5th edition books too like grey knights and necrons

[RGilbert26]

This is the sticky issue, zombie rule says no options and more cultists fall under Options. I would not be surprised if GW had ended it to be that after you increase the unit size you then nominate them to be zombies and so you can't give them weapons etc. Unfortuneatly yet again they did not write it that way. Hence the varying opinions.

[inquisitorsog]

In this case "Plague Zombie" and "Chaos Cultist" are call-outs for specific models
The rule says:
"Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultist units"

[lattd]

If the rule says you nominate a unit of cultists just make squads of 35 and then nominate them, doesn't say you have to nominate the unit before you upgrade it...

[Anggul]

I'm going to say 35. Not because the wording suggests so, but because it's blatantly obvious what the purpose is. Phil Kelly did not decide that zombies should number the same as Space Marine squads. Any player of a reasonable nature who actually wants both sides to have fun while playing a game will say: 'Yeah, zombies are obviously meant to be a big horde, use them like that as they should be.'

[Caitsidhe]

I'm going to say 35. Not because the wording suggests so, but because it's blatantly obvious what the purpose is. Phil Kelly did not decide that zombies should number the same as Space Marine squads. Any player of a reasonable nature who actually wants both sides to have fun while playing a game will say: 'Yeah, zombies are obviously meant to be a big horde, use them like that as they should be.'

Except that you can have a big zombie horde on the table without it being a single big unit. ;) The two things are not one and the same. One could argue, in fact, that zombies work best from a tech perspective when NOT part of a single big unit wherein all o them get tied up or shot to death at once. Zombies come in waves and only look like a giant mob in that you look out across the wasteland and seen an endless line of them. The argument could go either way from a fluff standpoint but realistically zombies do not have discipline or cohesion so blobbing them in a way wherein unit coherency applies is just hilarious.

[Chris*ta]

Sure the wording in general is vague, but in choosing to interpret this in the most limiting way possible - despite the fact that the consensus among even the "max. 10" voters seems to be that units at least should be able to go to 35 - people seem to be deliberatly abandoning common sense in favour of provoking what we all know will eventually be a meaningless argument.

I'm pretty sure this is the RAW credo :D

[Chris*ta]

The argument could go either way from a fluff standpoint but realistically zombies do not have discipline or cohesion so blobbing them in a way wherein unit coherency applies is just hilarious.

As opposed to Ork mobs, which are a picture of discipline and cohesion?

[DWest]

The rule says:
"Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultist units"
If you read the actual rules on page 61, it does not say that. It says, exactly, "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain, and Slow And Purposeful rules, and cannot purchase options."

Please do not distort the wording of the Codex in an attempt to prop up your opinion of the situation.

[Lucius]

"Any chaos Cultists units in the same army as Typhus may be nominated as Plague Zombies." 1
"Plague zombies, may not purchase options" 2

1 As far as I'm concerned this reads as units may be upgraded, so this means units already allocated to the Army List.
2 This is referring to individual models, not the unit.

If it said "Plague Zombie units may not purchase options", then this would be an open and shut case, however, the wording relates to units already in the army, and then to individual models.

There is 0% of Plague zombies being limited to 10 models.

[DarkLink]

Just because it doesn't specify unit, that doesn't automatically make it refer to only individual models. It's ambiguous, and as someone earlier pointed out the Cultist Champion would not become a zombie if it referred to models, implying that it does refer to the unit. Either way, it's ambiguous. Since taking additional bodies is clearly listed under Options, and you can't make a clear argument that it refers to models and not the unit, you can't make a clear argument that you're allowed to upgrade to 35 zombies.

[inquisitorsog]

The argument could go either way from a fluff standpoint
I reread the "Fluff" because we all seem to think that this will be FAQ'ed to support "35". I'm not so sure anymore.

The relevant fluff in Typhus's entry says the zombie plague doesn't occur until after Typhus leaves. There's not really an indication there should be a large number of zombies mucking about while Typhus is still around. Once Typhus is gone? sure. But not while he's still there. The fluff says it emerges "in the fleet's wake". "in the wake" indicates after the fleet has left (the boat's wake is behind the boat). And it clearly doesn't turn into a horde until quite some time after Typhus leaves as the victims die a "long,agonizing" death.

On page 25 (it's one of the unnumbered ones in the timeline portion of the codex), it says that the zombie plague ravaged the Cando System after the Teminus Est showed up and left "soon after". No indication is present that the Terminus Est dropped a large number of zombies onto he planet.

We're getting people arguing that "units" means "models", we're getting people arguing "options" are not "options", we're getting people saying "purchase unit options" then you "Choose to nominate or not" then "purchase model options" . And, ALL of these interpretations are based on the notion that there's supposed to be large mobs on the board because that's "fluffy".

We still have Typhus on the battlefield spreading his "presents". One of those "presents" is the contagion that LEADS to the zombie plague, but he doesn't say he brings the horde of zombies with him. No support is to be found in the fluff for hordes while Typhus is on the field.

Please feel free to argue about intent, but the fluff doesn't help.

[Kirsten]

I agree, the rules are clear you only get ten model squads, that may well be the intent as well, there is no guarantee anything else is intended, and your fluff reasoning is sound

[DF3CT]

It's all in the wording.

Some people see "cannot take" and simply stop reading or comparing the process of purchasing options to other books or other entries.

CSM's for example. The UNIT may purchase Rhinos as transport, NOT "Chaos Space marines purchase a Rhino as transport."

IF the same Typhus ability applied to the CSM's they would strangely enough be allowed to zoom around in a Rhino because a Chaos Space marine isn't paying for the Rhino, the unit is.

Plague Zombies cannot take options, just as a Chaos Space marine couldn't take a CCW, special weapon, mark or veterans of the long war if they were in the same predicament. All of those upgrades require a "per model" personal upgrade for those options to take effect, which they wouldn't be allowed to pay for.

Also, as pointed out, nominating. When does it take effect? Most certainly not the second your pen hits the paper. You nominate units through abilities and effects when the game is starting. All the chosen cultist weapons or marks are void because THEY cannot take options and their default weapons are clubs.

[DF3CT]

Just because it doesn't specify unit, that doesn't automatically make it refer to only individual models. It's ambiguous, and as someone earlier pointed out the Cultist Champion would not become a zombie if it referred to models, implying that it does refer to the unit. Either way, it's ambiguous. Since taking additional bodies is clearly listed under Options, and you can't make a clear argument that it refers to models and not the unit, you can't make a clear argument that you're allowed to upgrade to 35 zombies.


Cultist champion is STILL a cultist. He is a cultist.

Now, a Thousand Sons sorcerer wouldn't if it targeted thousand son marines because he's a sorcerer, not a thousand son sorcerer.

[DarkLink]

Not if it refers specifically to individual models. Individually, there are Cultists and a Cultist Champion. Collectively, they are a unit of Chaos Cultists. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There are quite a few examples of this in various other codices and FAQs, where one member of a unit can't take certain upgrades because they're a different type of model from the rest of the unit, and yes, GW has verified several of these cases in the FAQ/Erratas.

And your argument that the "can't take options" doesn't apply until you decide it does, and thus you can just write down "35 Chaos Cultist" then go back and erase Cultists and write in Zombies is bull****. By that logic, you may take any and all options available to Chaos Cultists and just completely ignore the "can't take options" rule.

[DF3CT]

Individually they are Chaos Cultists.

[daboarder]

Actually Darklink I don't think the chaos champion IS a zombie, By your own admission the wording for what a model is is very specific.

the UNIT is nominated a a plague zombie unit.


any chaos cultist unitsin the same army as typhus may be nominated as Plague zombies

The cultists become plague zombies But the Champion doesn't in accordance with the next line.


Plague zombies are CHAOS CULTISTS that have the fearless, Feel no pain, Slow and purposeful special rules and cannot purchace options

So you have as per the rules a unit made up of Chaos Cultists that are now Plague zombies led by a Cultist Champion

Then the individual cultists cannot purchase options but the champion can he is never turned into a plague zombie as he is NOT a Chaos Cultist. as such the unit can also buy additional members, you've just proved his point.

It is the EXACT same reasoning behind THIS entry that has no argument in the terminator entry


Any chaos terminator may choose one of the following three options

The above means that the Terminator Champion may not take the follwoing options, it is the same as the zombie entry.

case solved.

If you want to argue that its not specific then explain why a terminator champion may not take a heavy weapon, or a space marine sergeant, or Sanguinary initiates may not take upgrade.

[DarkLink]

You're still jumping to the conclusion that Chaos Cultists refers to individual models, without any actual justification. Someone pointed out that discrepancy earlier, and I brought it up as a point of reductio ad absurdum; it just doesn't make sense that everyone except Sarge got infected and turned into a zombie, implying that Chaos Cultists is intended to refer to the entire unit so that everyone becomes a Zombie. The fact that it is feasible that that is actually how it was intended is not an argument for actual intent, any more than it is an argument against it.

But it's still ambiguous. It doesn't clearly state that it refers to individual models, so you can't clearly back up that argument, and then you just run into the problem that additional bodies are unquestionably Options.



So, basically, extra bodies are Options. You can't functionally argue with that.

If Chaos Cultists refers to the unit, then the unit can't take Options and thus is limited to 10 members, end of story.

If Chaos Cultists refers to individual models, then the Sergeant is unchanged, and you might be able to argue that, even though extra bodies are clearly an Option, that the singular Chaos Cultists are merely limited from taking individual Options


Frankly, I find the latter argument to be extremely sketch. Any interpretation of the rules that can not be explained definitively and explicitly backed up, and requires a couple loopholes that seem highly unusual, indicates rules lawyer-ism in the bad sense to me, even if it is done with good intentions. Simply put, it quite clearly states No Options, and you seem to be trying to squirm around that to try and justify taking something that is, in fact, clearly labeled as an Option.

Don't bother trying to pull a bull**** argument out of thin air. GW messed up. GW should FAQ it. And if GW doesn't, houserule it. None of this sketchy "well I think you can take options, because if you assume this and this and this, and ignore this and this, and disregard these precedents and only focus on these ones, then you can theoretically do something it directly states you cannot do".


You should be able to take lots of zombies. I just can't buy the sketchy argument that tries to let you. Just be honest and houserule it.

[daboarder]

You're still jumping to the conclusion that Chaos Cultists refers to individual models, without any actual justification. Someone pointed out that discrepancy earlier, and I brought it up as a point of reductio ad absurdum; it just doesn't make sense that everyone except Sarge got infected and turned into a zombie, implying that Chaos Cultists is intended to refer to the entire unit so that everyone becomes a Zombie. The fact that it is feasible that that is actually how it was intended is not an argument for actual intent, any more than it is an argument against it.



Precedence?

how else are we supposed to determine what its taking about other than the given names? It works the same for EVERY SINGLE UNIT ENTRY IN THE GAME, why would this be the sole exception?

[DarkLink]

But again, is it unit or model name?

You can't make a clear and obvious argument for either, so I have to call bull on handwaving the No Options rule and simply ignoring part of it. The logical part of my mind can't justify dodging around rules because I feel like they should be different.

So, again, just be honest and call it a houserule until it is FAQ'd.

[daboarder]

well considering it doesnt use the word UNIT, like every other instance of a rule where they talk about the UNIT. I would say that the rule is talking about the MODELS.

[DarkLink]

Being at work I don't have my book to hand, but normally, there is a sub heading within the unit entry saying 'options'.

If memory serves, increasing the size of the unit does not normally come listed under this?

No, it actually says pretty much exactly this:



Options:
May add up to twenty-five additional Chaos Cultists...4pts each
...etc

It's literally the first thing directly under Options.

[daboarder]

No, it actually says pretty much exactly this:



It's literally the first thing directly under Options.

HE I'd Right but it's irrelevant as we can show the limit on options only applies to specific models. The rule never states that the unit may not buy option only specific models that make up a part thereof (but not the entirety)

That second sentence is an entirely new sentence. It's the only line that governs whO cannot take options and it makes no mention of the unit.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

omg this is dumb... they can only take 10 zombies in a squad gw will faq it and we will be able to take 35...until they do, bite the bullet and call it a house rule. everyone who is argueing for 35 zombies in a squad is going to just do it anyway because they want to, so instead of doing the dick move and argueing about it, just tell your opponent "this is an issue that has the internet community split, can we agree that for our game i can use 35 zombies in a squad?" if the opponent says yes, go for it...if the opponent says no, well then it is up to you as a player to decide if the guy is being a dick and you dont want to play him because of it, or to bite the bullet and just take 10 man squads. your decision, just stop *****ing about it and get on with playing the game instead of flame waring about it

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

EVEN BETTER... use Siege of Vraks 3 to ally Servants of Decay with you Chaos Space Marines.

To meet the force organization requirements all you have to do is as an HQ choice run an Exalted Champion (basically a 2 wound Chaos Lord for 60 points), and for your Troops run Plague Zombies. (Hell for you power gamers out there, you can run them in 50 man squads!!!!!!!!!!) they are 6 points a piece and have fearless, feel no pain, and shambling gait which is basically slow and purposeful. Oh yeah, and their base strength score is 4 not 3!

If you want to be extra cheese-dick-y then run Necrosius as the HQ choice instead of the Exalted Champion. He is 160 points, but he has a special rule called Master of the Dead (this power gives all Plague Zombies Furious Charge!)

You can have up to 2 50 man blocks of Plague Zombies that have strength 5 on the charge!

Best of all it is totally legit and no one can argue about rules discrepancies or ambiguous language. Imperial Armour VII-Siege of Vraks III. Also Necrosius has had his profile updated to fit 6th edition rules, it is in the downloads page on Forge World's website. Also the model is only 13 pounds! cheap.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

And before anyone *****es and complains, the Imperial Armour Renegades have even been updated on the Forge World website to fit into the ally matrix in the 6th edition rulebook. All Renegades are treated exactly the same as Chaos space Marines on the ally matrix with the exception that they are battle brothers with chaos space marines.

The only problem is in the fluff not the rules mechanics. Necrosius does not get along with Typhus...but something tells me if you are the type of person who will sit and argue language and sentence structure to justify take 3 man zombie squads, playing 2 characters that do not get along with each other in the same army is not going to be a problem for you. (the same types of ppl that will run Nurgle bikers or Nurgle raptors even though neither is fluffy to run. or wings on a nnurgle daemon prince...hey I am slow and purposeful, lumbering around the battlefield, but wait i have wings so instead i will just fly around at incredible speeds instead...because the rules say i can.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm rather pleased they did that actually since it opens up nice options for me sticking Special Characters and conveying their transfer abilities to my blobs. :) Essentially the update now provides a CSM army access to ALL Imperial Guard options without any restraint making Traitor Guard just a branch of Chaos Space Marines (allies). All problems with effective anti-aircraft are mitigated. It also means that as battle brothers CSM can get on Vendettas.

Rats. I'm wrong on that. I thought I had seen it the reverse (wishful thinking); no Vendettas for my Marines. :) Either way it is a very nice set of options opened up.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

the renegades from the IA books do not get vendetta transports anyway, just the vehicles in the book. basically chimeras, leman russ, and bane wolf. IG are still allies of convenience

[Caitsidhe]

the renegades from the IA books do not get vendetta transports anyway, just the vehicles in the book. basically chimeras, leman russ, and bane wolf. IG are still allies of convenience

Too bad. I was under the impression (no idea why) that Traitor Guard had all the same options as regular IG except wherein the book showed different. If so, I'll just be using my standard IG as allies of convenience... my own Traitors. I'll just have to settle for Stubborn blobs via Kommisar.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

well after looking at the book again (cursory glance, not in depth pouring over) it looks like almost every IG vehicle is in there except the vendettas. But you can only take a single tank Leman Russ as a heavy support option (any variant). You can take a single weapons platform (earthshaker platform, medusa platform, hydra platform) as a seperate heavy weapons choice. You can take a support vehicle as a heavy support choice...includes Griffon, Manticore, Basilisk, Medusa Siege gun, Hydra Flakk Tank, Bombard. You can also take hell blade, hell talon, artillery strike, and turret emplacements.

[daboarder]

omg this is dumb... they can only take 10 zombies in a squad gw will faq it and we will be able to take 35...until they do, bite the bullet and call it a house rule. everyone who is argueing for 35 zombies in a squad is going to just do it anyway because they want to, so instead of doing the dick move and argueing about it, just tell your opponent "this is an issue that has the internet community split, can we agree that for our game i can use 35 zombies in a squad?" if the opponent says yes, go for it...if the opponent says no, well then it is up to you as a player to decide if the guy is being a dick and you dont want to play him because of it, or to bite the bullet and just take 10 man squads. your decision, just stop *****ing about it and get on with playing the game instead of flame waring about it


Firstly, Don't be a rude.

secondly by RAW your actually wrong. there exists no line in the codex that states that Plague Zombie UNITS cannot take options. the only mention of them is that the individual zombies themselves cannot take upgrades. therefore in accordance with the RAW you may buy unit options but not options for individual models.

in fact heres the quote.


Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options

Quite clearly it is referring solely to the models in the unit not the unit itself. If it were referring to the unit is would use the word unit.

So please don't be so silly and actually read the rule instead of merely stating what you have heard elsewhere.
It really is cut and dry what the line is stating I don't even know why people are actually arguing about it.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

yes it is really cut and dry, and i am not stating anything i have heard...merely reading word for word what the codex says...cannot purchase options....first listed option is adding additional cultists. plain and simple black and white. anything else is trying to make the sentence say what you want it to.

[daboarder]

Well thats what you're doing wrong then. Your taking a restriction applied to individual models and making the logical leap that it applies to the unit as a whole, It doesn't!
That would be like arguing that the psyker special rule for an aspiring sorcerer applies to the whole unit. That line os quite clearly talking about individual models gaining special rules but removing access to options. The nut itself does not loose all options and is perfectly legally able to buy more bodies.

Again read the whole line not just the three word your fixating on. About the only thing you've gr righ is that it is black and white.

[Caitsidhe]

Quite clearly it is referring solely to the models in the unit not the unit itself. If it were referring to the unit is would use the word unit.

And WHY would it be referring to models in the unit? Wouldn't the appropriate syntax then (if it was a clear cut as you infer) be:

A Plague Zombie is a Chaos Cultist that has the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options.

That would have clearly indicated that individual models cannot get options, but they didn't write it that way did they? :) They spoke about them as a GROUP, i.e. as a unit. The default in 40K is always to talk about units. Your attempt to try and wring the answer you want out of the RAW doesn't do you credit. The RAW must always be read by the STRICTEST interpretation. That is the point of RAW. As others have pointed out, increased numbers of Cultists falls under the OPTIONS section and thus they are limited to ten until the Faq or errata say otherwise. Rules as written is strict and often weird. Rules as intended can only be known in a fubar like this when they clarify it.


So please don't be so silly and actually read the rule instead of merely stating what you have heard elsewhere. It really is cut and dry what the line is stating I don't even know why people are actually arguing about it.

They aren't being silly or rude for that matter. They are following the harshest, most strict interpretation of the rules until told otherwise. You might find that silly, but most find it appropriate and fair. I suspect many of them don't like the notion of being limited to only (10) Zombies anymore than you do. I, personally, HOPE that we can do big blobs of zombies also despite the fact that I think the fluff is more properly represented by units of ten at a time. One should not allow personal bias (read desires) influence a RAW reading.

[inquisitorsog]

Well thats what you're doing wrong then. Your taking a restriction applied to individual models and making the logical leap that it applies to the unit as a whole,

So you're saying I can buy a mark for my UNIT? The mark is clearly stated to be a unit purchase.

[bfmusashi]

I hope it's FAQ'd up to 35 'cause I wants to kill me some zombie hordes, and it has to be FAQ'd because this is what it says:
p.61 "Any Chaos Cultist units in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that...cannot purchase options."
p.95 "Options: (first bullet point) May add up to twenty-five Chaos Cultists"
But, I really want to play against 210 zombies.

[DF3CT]

So you're saying I can buy a mark for my UNIT? The mark is clearly stated to be a unit purchase.

You are buying the mark for a model, but the unit must all have the same mark. You ARE buying a mark for a unit, paid by all the models who all must have the same mark and when you eventually nominate that cultist unit as zombies, they lose access to it like any weapon upgrades.

A unit increases its number. Chaos Space Marines don't pay to beef up their number. Chosen don't pay individually to beef up their numbers. Neither do Plague Zombies.

Notice how a Rhino may be purchased by a unit and not by "Chaos Space Marines."

TO me, unless stated otherwise when referenced specifically by name, it means the models as some units have mixed models.

Typhus is all sorts of messed up. It doesn't even specify when the nomination takes place.

[daboarder]

You are buying the mark for a model, but the unit must all have the same mark. You ARE buying a mark for a unit, paid by all the models who all must have the same mark and when you eventually nominate that cultist unit as zombies, they lose access to it like any weapon upgrades.

A unit increases its number. Chaos Space Marines don't pay to beef up their number. Chosen don't pay individually to beef up their numbers. Neither do Plague Zombies.

Notice how a Rhino may be purchased by a unit and not by "Chaos Space Marines."

TO me, unless stated otherwise when referenced specifically by name, it means the models as some units have mixed models.

Typhus is all sorts of messed up. It doesn't even specify when the nomination takes place.

THIS, so much THIS!

[inquisitorsog]

It doesn't even specify when the nomination takes place.
And that is the other elephant in the room. nominate usually carries a connotation of "game time decision". "purchase" does not.

[bfmusashi]

I think it's cute people are ignoring exactly what the rule says in favor of what they'd like it to say.

[DF3CT]

I think it's cute people are ignoring exactly what the rule says in favor of what they'd like it to say.

So when did they start singling out a whole unit without specifying UNIT and simply call them by their model names or just model?

Psychic powers say model or unit. If an attack says model, do you assume it means model OR unit?
Some options say model or UNIT.

Units purchase options.
Models also purchase options.

Refute this please.

It's lazy wording.

Are you now going to debate the finer uses of "take" and "use". Take would require nominating happen during list creation while use would require it at the start of the game, voiding purchased options, but since when does a characters ability that doesn't specify an effect on list making, effect list making?

Christ, I've gone crosseyed.

[inquisitorsog]

Refute this please.

You got so crosseyed I don't even know what you want refuted.

I know the first bit says the "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultist units", it also mentions any such units can be "nominated". It never refers to Plague Zombies as models. We assume that because the following bit says "Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that..." that therefore it goes to plural. That then leaves me open to buying 35, but then causes further confusion as to the terminology about the mark as the mark is clearly stated to be purchased by the unit, not the model, it is only priced by the model. It further leaves up in the air if the Champion is still a Cultist Champion or is now a Zombie Champion. So, would it benefit from FNP or would it lose Fearless and Slow and Purposeful if it is last model standing?

If nothing else, the "10" approach doesnt' give me a headache with these other bits.

[DarkLink]

I think he was saying that the rule is ambiguous, so rather than being clearly a unit or clearly a model it just doesn't specify, and thus you can't really justify anything because you can't make a clear argument for or against either one.

Which is precisely my opinion. It's not clear, and so we default to the May Not Take Options, and more bodies is an Option, and I can't make a clear argument that it refers to models and thus avoids this issue, and so you can't take more bodies. The inconsistencies with treating the rule as individual zombie models you mention just backs up that point.

[DF3CT]

I believe it only refers to the unit because each and every model MUST pay the same cost. To avoid people buying it for some and not others, creating all sorts of confusion, but it is a by model purchase for a model.

[bfmusashi]

So when did they start singling out a whole unit without specifying UNIT and simply call them by their model names or just model?

Psychic powers say model or unit. If an attack says model, do you assume it means model OR unit?
Some options say model or UNIT.

Units purchase options.
Models also purchase options.

Refute this please.

It's lazy wording.

Are you now going to debate the finer uses of "take" and "use". Take would require nominating happen during list creation while use would require it at the start of the game, voiding purchased options, but since when does a characters ability that doesn't specify an effect on list making, effect list making?

Christ, I've gone crosseyed.

I really like when people tell me what I'm going to do in the future. You are incorrect, I was going to point out the rule only refers to units. Models are never mentioned.
Models are not brought up until you look up the Chaos Cultist in the army list but they're an option. Options are forbidden. The conflict only arises because 35 zombies is more fun for everyone so the rule is stupid. Again, the rules:
p.61 "Any Chaos Cultist units in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that...cannot purchase options."
p.95 "Options: (first bullet point) May add up to twenty-five Chaos Cultists"
If the rule allowed 35 zombies it wouldn't say options, it would say 'may not have other and/or additional weapons nor Marks of Chaos.' Chaos Cultists are only mentioned as a unit, arguing the second mention switches to an implied 'Chaos Cultists models' is tenuous. If one is all strict and by-the-book then it can't be done, if one's more worried about having a good time over the weekend then it's zombiepalooza (2000pts=420 zombies to kill). I have no idea if that's broken, but I want to play against it.

[Flammenwerfer13]

So, basically, extra bodies are Options. You can't functionally argue with that.

If Chaos Cultists refers to the unit, then the unit can't take Options and thus is limited to 10 members, end of story.

Yeah, no. It states that you can not purchase options, the only option available to purchase are the marks, RAW. They nix weapons in the same entry as they're only using for clubbing and not shooting so the other options are available. Is the entry poorly written, I think so, but the RAI was written in that you can't get Marks for the zombies and replacing/exchanging weapons wouldn't do a thing as the Zombie couldn't shoot them otherwise. The only option that you get is the "add to" more Zombies (chaos cultist) option. Across the intertubez this retarded idea that zombies were some how limited 10 zombies was a poorly read idea that took on a life of it's own.

This is my argument.

[inquisitorsog]

Yeah, no. It states that you can not purchase options, the only option available to purchase are the marks, RAW. ..........This is my argument.
I saw that and thought that maybe was sustainable line of argument. But, it's not. P90, #7, you "pay" the points for options. It's really hard to argue the other options are not "purchases" if you "pay" for them.

[Flammenwerfer13]

I saw that and thought that maybe was sustainable line of argument. But, it's not. P90, #7, you "pay" the points for options. It's really hard to argue the other options are not "purchases" if you "pay" for them.

That's a frivolous point. They're just making sure that when you exchange/replace a weapon that you show the points for it. If you want to go down this road it also says "this section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit..." It does not point out that you purchase these upgrades nor does the picture above it is referencing have marks that you would purchase. In circular logic this would some how reinforce my point. It does matter as this page is a guide to how to read it and only a snap shot.

[Caitsidhe]

That's a frivolous point. They're just making sure that when you exchange/replace a weapon that you show the points for it. If you want to go down this road it also says "this section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit..." It does not point out that you purchase these upgrades nor does the picture above it is referencing have marks that you would purchase. In circular logic this would some how reinforce my point. It does matter as this page is a guide to how to read it and only a snap shot.

It isn't a frivolous point. Let's be crystal clear here. Nobody is saying they WANT (10) man zombie units. Those people arguing the RAW reads a certain way are basing it on syntax. You must use the harshest reading until they clarify it. The difference between you and I is I'm not letting my bias (read desires) color my reading of the rules. It need a Faq clarification. It will probably allow big zombie units. However, don't count your chickens. There are fluff reasons they might not. Moreover, there are game balance reasons they might not.

[bfmusashi]

Dude, the extra bodies are listed under "Options."

[nomcruise]

RAW the zombies cap at 10. Cannot purchase options isn't what I'd call ambiguous. The unit entry in the army list section of the CSM 'dex clearly shows that the unit is comprised of a Cultist Champion and 9 Chaos Cultists. The option to add more dudes to the squad is very clearly listed as a bullet point under the bolded OPTIONS segment of the unit entry.

[inquisitorsog]

That's a frivolous point. They're just making sure that when you exchange/replace a weapon that you show the points for it.

The verbiage used is always "pay", "spend" and synonymous terms. Saying we should forget that and suddenly assign "purchase" special meaning is dangerous. It's not frivolous at all to point that out. There are many other rules that suddenly would require microscopic parsing to figure out what they actually restricted or permitted if we went that route.

You say in your first post the RAI wasn't RAW. Why you then try to torture what is written to say that RAI = RAW is beyond me.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, no. It states that you can not purchase options, the only option available to purchase are the marks, RAW.

...are you literate? I don't think the words 'Options: Add twenty five Chaos Cultists for 4pts each' means what you seem to think it does.

Not particularly impressed with the reading comprehension here. Did you even read the unit entry? Under the OPTIONS category, you get 1) additional cultists, 2) buy weapon options, and 3) buy marks.

All the attempts to justify taking larger squads cannot argue with the fact that taking bodies is an Option, because it is one. They can only argue that it's not one of the options that is referred to in the rule. I don't buy it, because it makes for a sketchy loophole-y rules lawyer-y argument that relies on assumption and ambiguous rules, but at least it's an argument that acknowledges what's actually on the page. Your argument here literally relies on you making stuff up.

And don't pull that RAI bull****. RAI is code for "I made this up because I don't like RAW".

[Flammenwerfer13]

It isn't a frivolous point. Let's be crystal clear here. Nobody is saying they WANT (10) man zombie units. Those people arguing the RAW reads a certain way are basing it on syntax. You must use the harshest reading until they clarify it. The difference between you and I is I'm not letting my bias (read desires) color my reading of the rules. It need a Faq clarification. It will probably allow big zombie units. However, don't count your chickens. There are fluff reasons they might not. Moreover, there are game balance reasons they might not.
I am reading it by the "harshest" way possible, it states you can't purchase options the only option you can purchase are the marks, thus you can't not PURCHASE the marks. Can I get any harsher and more to the point? You're being to loose with the RAW and applying it to all the options when it clearly states that it only applies to those that you purchase.



RAW the zombies cap at 10. Cannot purchase options isn't what I'd call ambiguous. The unit entry in the army list section of the CSM 'dex clearly shows that the unit is comprised of a Cultist Champion and 9 Chaos Cultists. The option to add more dudes to the squad is very clearly listed as a bullet point under the bolded OPTIONS segment of the unit entry.

(reads codex) Not seeing where it says I'm limited to ONLY 10 zombies, it does say I can start at 10 and ADD-TO the unit for a total of 35 zombies but it does say I can't PURCHASE Marks, well that is how the RAW in the Typhus entry reads.


Dude, the extra bodies are listed under "Options."

(claps hands) good you can read that they're in the option section. They extra bodies are not purchased and are actually add-to the unit those you can add-to the unit as the RAW says you can not purchase options and the only options you can purchase are the four different marks.





...are you literate? I don't think the words 'Options: Add twenty five Chaos Cultists for 4pts each' means what you seem to think it does.
Neither does this absurd argument that we can't take 35 zombies from a poorly written rule even though 97% (pulled from the Department of Made Up Numbers) of the forum here knows it will be FAQ that way.
We can all play stupid with the rules, my point is that this whole argument about the unit limit for zombies is retarded to say the least and and we're all arguing over intent when we know the intent from the get go is large swarms of zombies while we yell out 'aaaarrrggghhhh bbbrrraaiiiinnn' and have them shamble towards our enemies.


Not particularly impressed with the reading comprehension here. Did you even read the unit entry? Under the OPTIONS category, you get 1) additional cultists, 2) buy weapon options, and 3) buy marks. I sure did, I can cite pages, upload pictures of me reading the book, even a video of me reading the book out loud. Though I'll assume that your point here was more rhetorical than a question.


All the attempts to justify taking larger squads cannot argue with the fact that taking bodies is an Option, because it is one. They can only argue that it's not one of the options that is referred to in the rule. I don't buy it, because it makes for a sketchy loophole-y rules lawyer-y argument that relies on assumption and ambiguous rules, but at least it's an argument that acknowledges what's actually on the page. Your argument here literally relies on you making stuff up.

My argument here is ironclad as the argument that you can't take more than 10 zombies. Both rely on interpretation of the reading of the rule. In this case I choice to drill down to the very option you can't take, you're advocating the more liberal point of view that it applies to all options. The rule clearly states


And don't pull that RAI bull****. RAI is code for "I made this up because I don't like RAW". I could yes pull the RAI but I'm pointing out RAW, we just different how we read the RAW and the bigger point is that if I was wrong this argument would have ended on the first page. The fact that it's still going on and that it's getting louder is that you're interpretation is wrong and counter-productive to the hobby as a whole and pushing a bad interpretation of RAW doesn't help.



For the record I'm not a Chaos player, I will never be a Chaos player. I'm an IG player since 3d Edition. I just find that from time to time places like here and Dakka Dakka to name a few some times push really bad interpretation of RAW and then I have to deal with some poor sap at the tournament (against the net list they're using) trying to argue a "RAW" that in reality the interpretation was wrong because XXXX forum said so.

[DF3CT]

It isn't a frivolous point. Let's be crystal clear here. Nobody is saying they WANT (10) man zombie units. Those people arguing the RAW reads a certain way are basing it on syntax. You must use the harshest reading until they clarify it. The difference between you and I is I'm not letting my bias (read desires) color my reading of the rules. It need a Faq clarification. It will probably allow big zombie units. However, don't count your chickens. There are fluff reasons they might not. Moreover, there are game balance reasons they might not.

Pretty sure the Imeprial Armour Vraks list isn't rallied against all over the internet because you can take units of Plague Zombies in units of 10-50 because they are OP. They even have strength 4.

Quite frankly I'd be more worried about mobs of 20 Fearless CSM's with I 5 charging you down instead of a few shambling mobs that are very susceptible to pie plates.

It's not like they have poison attacks and regenerate an amount of Plague Zombies equal to the number of models they killed in combat.
NOW THAT would be awesome. I think they really missed doing some cool stuff with the new Chaos Dex and chose a more vanilla approach with, well....everything in it.

Units of 10 slow moving troops are just asking to be farmed for kill points and would be a shining example of more useless rules/troops/models that could otherwise have been fantastic and fun.

[entendre_entendre]

Ok, I'm going to examine the entire quote.

Plague Zombies: Any Chaos Cultist units (see army list, pg 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies. Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have fearless, Feel No Pain, and Slow and Purposeful special rules, and cannot purchase options. They are armed with a single close combat weapon - any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their enemies to death! - p61
I feel I need to point this out as Typhus' entry specifically points out the difference between a unit of Cultists and Cultist models. The first sentence deals with units, the second models. In the sentence that has everyone riled up, if one were to reduce the plural to a singular, you would get "A Plague Zombie is a Chaos Cultist that has... and cannot take options". This means that a Zombie is a Cultist in its relation to the model/statline and in that model's ability to take options (i.e. marks/guns). A cultist does not purchase an option to increase the squad size, the unit does. The unit is made up of zombies, referring to the models only, so technically, it's not a Zombie unit, it's a unit of Zombies, if that makes any sense. :/ So it's a Cultist unit that is made up of Zombies.

The key here would be the word "unit(s)". I feel the first sentence allows you to decode the meaning of the second and I felt people were not even looking at the first enough to notice the (subtle) distinction made. Definitely needs to be Errata'd to make it 100% clear though. Too bad GW takes months for something that could be done in a week or over a coffee break with Mr. Kelly. >.>

The point about the Plague Zombies with a Cultist Champion is also junk. The Unit is nominated as being Plague zombies, so every model in the unit is a zombie, you can't declare half the unit to be zombies, for example, it's everyone or no one. This would mean there is no Cultist Champion, only Zuul- er, Zombies.

[DarkLink]

Where does it say the second sentence deals with models. I don't see that anywhere. It could refer to models, or it could refer to the unit just like the first sentence.


I am reading it by the "harshest" way possible, it states you can't purchase options the only option you can purchase are the marks, thus you can't not PURCHASE the marks. Can I get any harsher and more to the point? You're being to loose with the RAW and applying it to all the options when it clearly states that it only applies to those that you purchase.

Seriously, are you capable of reading the English language? I'm not specifically saying that to be rude, there's just no nice way to put it, what you claim and what is actually written on the page are two different things. Taking additional cultists is listed under options. You claim that it is not. You are literally incorrect. There is no interpretation here. Options = Additional bodies.

An argument can be made, sketchy as I find it, that the option to take additional bodies is not one of the options that is disallowed. But even that argument acknowledges that additional bodies are, in fact, options.



(reads codex) Not seeing where it says I'm limited to ONLY 10 zombies, it does say I can start at 10 and ADD-TO the unit for a total of 35 zombies but it does say I can't PURCHASE Marks, well that is how the RAW in the Typhus entry reads.

You can't purchase options. Additional bodies is an option.

There are arguments that jump through loopholes to dodge around this, but if you can't understand those two sentences... I really have nothing to say to that.



(claps hands) good you can read that they're in the option section.

So, wait, you claim that they're not options, then you condescendingly admit that they are, in fact, options. What is your actual argument again? I'm sensing some insane troll logic here.



They extra bodies are not purchased and are actually add-to the unit those you can add-to the unit as the RAW says you can not purchase options and the only options you can purchase are the four different marks.

Aside from the fact that your sentence doesn't make very much sense (as in I literally can't tell quite what you mean to say), I think you need to peruse a dictionary. I'll give you a hand.

purchasedpast participle, past tense of pur·chase (Verb)



Verb:




Acquire (something) by paying for it; buy.









addv. add·ed, add·ing, adds
v.tr.1. To combine (a column of figures, for example) to form a sum.
2. To join or unite so as to increase in size, quantity, quality, or scope


You are, in fact, purchasing additional bodies, as well as adding them to the squad, and since the additional bodies are clearly options, and you are not allowed to purchase options...



Neither does this absurd argument

Oh, yeah, well your argument is absurd. Take that. But seriously, your argument really is absurd.



that we can't take 35 zombies from a poorly written rule even though 97% (pulled from the Department of Made Up Numbers) of the forum here knows it will be FAQ that way.

If we're going to make up numbers, then my 97% agrees that, while they should FAQ it, RAW is very clear here. Incidentally, simply going over the responses in this thread, it seems that in fact the majority of users do in fact agree with this. One or two individuals have had a vocal opposition, but that does not make them a majority.



I sure did, I can cite pages, upload pictures of me reading the book, even a video of me reading the book out loud. Though I'll assume that your point here was more rhetorical than a question.

Pics or it didn't happen. But yes, it what rhetorical, though I'm still not convinced you didn't cover up part of the unit entry with your thumb so you could make the claim that additional bodies are not in the Options category with a straight face.



My argument here is ironclad as the argument that you can't take more than 10 zombies. Both rely on interpretation of the reading of the rule.

Which is to say that it's not ironclad at all, and in fact extremely shaky, and thus we must default to the explicit No Options rule, and since cultists are options, you can't take them.



In this case I choice to drill down to the very option you can't take, you're advocating the more liberal point of view that it applies to all options. The rule clearly states

Huh? Grammar. It helps people understand what you're trying to say. Completing sentences helps, too.



I could yes pull the RAI

Sure, whatever. I could claim that RAI was that my Grey Knights get preferred enemy against Zombie Cultists, because they've been infected with daemon essence or something and GKs have PE Daemons. That doesn't make it true.



but I'm pointing out RAW, we just different how we read the RAW and the bigger point is that if I was wrong this argument would have ended on the first page. The fact that it's still going on and that it's getting louder is that you're interpretation is wrong and counter-productive to the hobby as a whole and pushing a bad interpretation of RAW doesn't help.

...huh? Someone disagrees with my general point, and thus I'm inherently wrong because they didn't capitulate immediately? Nice logic. You're a veritable Aristotle.

Ohhh, if we're going to keep flaming, then I could compare this to holocost denial, and invoke Godwin's Law.



For the record I'm not a Chaos player, I will never be a Chaos player. I'm an IG player since 3d Edition. I just find that from time to time places like here and Dakka Dakka to name a few some times push really bad interpretation of RAW and then I have to deal with some poor sap at the tournament (against the net list they're using) trying to argue a "RAW" that in reality the interpretation was wrong because XXXX forum said so.

I've played people like you before. It's not fun to face someone who doesn't seem to understand the words written on the page and makes inane arguments over rules as a result, so hopefully you're an easygoing guy to make up for that. I once had a guy argue that, despite the fact that Premeasuring says exactly "you may measure anything at any time", that you couldn't measure outside of the shooting phase. I practically facepalmed when he stuck by the argument even when I showed him the exact wording.

[DF3CT]

Ok, I'm going to examine the entire quote.

I feel I need to point this out as Typhus' entry specifically points out the difference between a unit of Cultists and Cultist models. The first sentence deals with units, the second models. In the sentence that has everyone riled up, if one were to reduce the plural to a singular, you would get "A Plague Zombie is a Chaos Cultist that has... and cannot take options". This means that a Zombie is a Cultist in its relation to the model/statline and in that model's ability to take options (i.e. marks/guns). A cultist does not purchase an option to increase the squad size, the unit does. The unit is made up of zombies, referring to the models only, so technically, it's not a Zombie unit, it's a unit of Zombies, if that makes any sense. :/ So it's a Cultist unit that is made up of Zombies.

The key here would be the word "unit(s)". I feel the first sentence allows you to decode the meaning of the second and I felt people were not even looking at the first enough to notice the (subtle) distinction made. Definitely needs to be Errata'd to make it 100% clear though. Too bad GW takes months for something that could be done in a week or over a coffee break with Mr. Kelly. >.>

The point about the Plague Zombies with a Cultist Champion is also junk. The Unit is nominated as being Plague zombies, so every model in the unit is a zombie, you can't declare half the unit to be zombies, for example, it's everyone or no one. This would mean there is no Cultist Champion, only Zuul- er, Zombies.

Well, the Cultist Champion is a Chaos Cultist so he suffers the same fate as all his cultist friends. If for some reason Cultist formations were led by a CSM, the CSM wouldn't be turned into a zombie, even though everyone else was.


@ Darklink
Don't compare an argument and debate which has the community split across the interwebs to someone saying you can only premeasure during the shooting phase.

That's just silly.

If it was so cut and dry it wouldn't be one of the main desires for an FAQ would it?

The way that Typhus is written is broken if so many people see it differently than you do.

Certainly some of us will be eating crow when it eventually gets taken care of.

[DarkLink]

No, that was specifically directed at Flammenwerfer13's argument. I understand the general argument we're having here, even if I can't bring myself to buy it, but Flammenwerfer13's justifications are just absurd. He's not making the argument that Typhus' rule refers to models, and thus you can buy additional models so long as they don't take individual options. He's making the argument that taking additional models is not actually an option at all, despite what is actually written in the rules. His argument is absurd, the overall one I merely disagree with.

[DF3CT]

Are you denying that there is the term "unit" used to purchase options and other times "model" also used?

Rarely is a unit called out by what it is without "unit" being present.

I've asked for people to provide some other examples where a unit is meant the target of something, but merely referred by their model type/what the unit is made up of.

[DarkLink]

That's your argument? That they "usually" slap on unit, and since they didn't it obviously means model instead? Do you really think that GW has its act together enough to be that consistent with its rules?

By the way, if you're going to ask loaded questions, here's one for you: Are you denying that the Zombies are not allowed to take options, and that adding additional Cultists is clearly labeled as an option? Two can play at that game;).

[DF3CT]

Again, there are instances where the "unit" purchases options and not the models themselves. I've already pointed out the Chaos Rhino as a transport which doesn't read " Chaos space marines may", it reads, the "UNIT" may.

Referring to models as "Plague zombies may or may not take" means the plague zombies themselves. The unit does not by 5 auto gun upgrades in a Chaos Cultist unit, the Chaos Cultists cost +1 point and sub out their auto pistol as an expenditure.

It is a very key word to separate equipping models personally or effects which are unit wide.

I'll make sure to bake you guys cupcakes on FAQ day so you can drown your tears in sugary treats.


"Any model may" is a very key phrase throughout all their codex books. I would ponder what that means and what "Plague zombies cannot take" mean together.

[bfmusashi]

Flammen, you're claiming a unit that can not take options can take something called an option because it might be referring to individual models instead of the entire unit even though individual models are never mentioned in the entry?
Nothing makes the second sentence in Typhus's entry mean Chaos Cultist models it only allows for it. There are several ways of reading it, the most literal is 10 plague zombies.

[Caitsidhe]

<chuckles> Regardless, it is pointless to argue about it. It is crystal clear this requires Errata/Faq treatment. The sooner it happens the better. Until such time as they do, most people I have encountered and ALL the tournaments I have played at already rule that since additional Cultists falls under the "options" heading and options are specifically prohibited by the rule on Typhus, you can only have (10) zombies. We will all get by however it pans out when they get around to putting up the CSM Faq.

[Garou24]

Chaos FAQ up, Zombies can add extra members

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710181a_Chaos_Space_Marines_v1.0a.pdf

[Caitsidhe]

Yep. Now it is official. You can spam Cultists units if you so choose. :) For 150pt per pop you could put 35 Zombies out and thus for 900pts you could flood the board with 210 of them. We shall see how playable it is and whether or not they decide to reign it back in in a few months. :)

[bfmusashi]

Good, now I need someone to field 420 zombies.

[daboarder]

Good, now I need someone to field 420 zombies.

Mantic is your friend!

[Learn2Eel]

Lmao, at 2000 points your opponent is like "yeah, I have enough to kill anything lol" and then sees 420 T3 Feel No Pain Fearless dudes sitting in cover. My expression would be - 'FUUUUUUUU-'.

[Flammenwerfer13]

Lmao, at 2000 points your opponent is like "yeah, I have enough to kill anything lol" and then sees 420 T3 Feel No Pain Fearless dudes sitting in cover. My expression would be - 'FUUUUUUUU-'.

Typhus a bare bones Sorcerer and 12x units of Zombies maxed out that will cost you 2090 points =/

Typhus 230 pt
Sorcerer w/ Mark of Nurgle, Blight Grenades, Terminator Armour, Mastery Level 3, Dimensional Key, VotLW, Dual Lighting Claws, Sigil of Corruption, Ichor Blood, Spell Familiar 252pt

12x Units of 35 Zombies for 150 a piece of 1800 pts

2182



Seems my final point that this retarded argument has come to an end, yes you could take 35 Zombies.

[Archon Charybdis]

Seems my final point that this retarded argument has come to an end, yes you could take 35 Zombies.

The fact that it's an errata as opposed to an FAQ would indicate that no, you couldn't take 35 zombies as written. They literally had to change the rule so you could.

[DF3CT]

I'd like to thank the academy...and of course zombie jesus.

[DarkLink]

That would be a hilarious army list.

[eldargal]

Not really. A FAQ is a GW houserule, people can choose to ignore them. An errata to clarify wording in no way indicates the previous interpretations were wrong, just that they are clarifying it to make it clear. It was completely obvious this ruling would occur.

The fact that it's an errata as opposed to an FAQ would indicate that no, you couldn't take 35 zombies as written. They literally had to change the rule so you could.

[Denzark]

I don't normally indulge in 'I told you so' but...

I love everyone!!!

[DF3CT]

They'll defend that they were right, because the entry was changed and not FAQ'd, but I believe it was changed so stupid simply isn't possible with it ever again.

But I mean, with so many seeing it as 35 squads, knowing that's what the author was trying to communicate, what they saw as RAW is their only flotation device.

[Mr Mystery]

That would be a hilarious army list.

My Necrons aren't at all scared. Whack out the Tesla, and watch the plague zombies drop like flies. In 2,000 I can comfortably fit in no less than 5 Tesla Destructors. All that, plus my general firepower and I'll chew through quickly enough. Plus, whilst thematically cool, those Zombies can't do anything to my vehicles!

But yeah, could be fun to play against!

[eldargal]

I'm with Denzark, it was blatantly obvious that 'no options' referred to Wargear, not the ability to increase unit size. The wording was, however, ambiguous and now it is fixed.

[DF3CT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Cs0cNe8eY

Play this when marching your hordes across the field to their victims.

[Kirsten]

evidently nothing was 'blatantly obvious' at all. It is good to see it ruled on and I look forward to seeing zombie hoards on tables, but it is quite astonishing how rude certain people are being about a perfectly debatable point as though they are somehow vindicated in all things.
Look at the errata for the terminators, the entry said may choose one of the following three options, now it says any of the following three options. there was no ambiguity, now it has been changed, we all anticipated thirty five man zombie units, that doesn't mean the wording was in favour of it.

[eldargal]

Well the wording was ambiguous, hence the need for the errata which GW were commendably prompt about delivering. But as far as I can recall it would have been the first time a unit upgrade overrode the choice to increase unit size, given that and the ambiguity of wording it seemed very unlikely it was the intent of the rule. The errata shows that this was correct. I

I think people should have just stuck with rolling for it, I don't like when people start using ambiguous wording to try and outright deny people choices. That's why the 'roll on it' rule is there.

Blatant was probably too strong a word.

[Phototoxin]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28676564.jpg

...too soon?

[eldargal]

Too soon, I doubt they have all the models painted yet.

[bfmusashi]

The wording certainly didn't seem ambiguous, just stupid. And this day, this glorious day, the stupid was defeated and, in a 2030 point game I can fight against 420 zombies. This is probably the best spamilicious thing to happen to 40k ever. So, if anyone around Knoxville Tennessee has this I want to play you. I will provide snacks.

[DF3CT]

Too soon, I doubt they have all the models painted yet.


You'd be surprised what can be achieved with brown spray paint, a watered down green ink and slight dabs of flesh colour.

[Phototoxin]

Too soon, I doubt they have all the models painted yet.

Quite true, though since when has lack of paint ever stopped WAAC players? The mantic zombie marine deal is also a bit useful here too!

[DF3CT]

Apparently now there is a debate if the entry changed the entire entry or just that certain part.

It would seem that GW fails at the most simplest of tasks.

Again, there are argument for both sides.