Internet Companies going down the swanny - MAELSTROM GAMES

[Denzark]

Chaps

I first mentioned Maelstrom the other day. At linky: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?25224-Problems-with-Internet-Companies-is-GW-causing-supply-problems&highlight=

Well I phoned - got a store minion who said the organ grinder would phone back. now, I get this in my email:

Hi there,

Here at Maelstrom Games (www.maelstromgames.co.uk) we have decided to clear as much of our hard-earned stock as we possibly can over the next few days - and therefore generate some much-needed cashflow - in order to ensure we can fulfil the orders that you, our valued customers, have placed over the last few weeks. To that end, we have decided - in consultation with our trading partners - to sell our remaining stock of Battlefront Miniatures (at 25% off), Perry Miniatures, Victrix, Plastic Soldier Company, Artizan Designs, Gripping Beast and Great War Miniatures (all at 30% off). All other ranges' stock will now be sold at 40% off UK RRP - we hold good stocks of Gamezone Miniatures, Dark Age, Cool Mini or Not and Scibor Miniatures, and there's a fair bit of Privateer Press and Malifaux left too. As well as that, from this moment onwards we have decided to stop any customer from placing orders for items that are not in stock, simply so that we can clear the orders that have already
been placed.


A FEW DETAILS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have not made this decision lightly, and please note that we have absolutely no issues with any of the above manufacturers or suppliers; we are simply trying to sell off stock in order to clear older orders and ease any worries our customers may have regarding the speculation that is currently rife on the internet. As well as that, we believe that our retailing model must now change to selling products that are in stock at the time of purchase, and as such that will continue to be in place in the future, once our orders are cleared and our stock is sold.

I would ask all of our customers to remain as patient as they can with Maelstrom Games and, indeed, our staff, for we will use the money generated by the sale of our stock to ensure all of your orders are fulfilled in their entirety as quickly as possible. We remain committed to servicing our customers first and foremost and will continue to do so in the future.


Red being their text. So, as I never go on the other sites, what speculation is rife? What is going down at Maelstrom? Will I ever get my Valkyrie ya bass? Due to the change in circumstance I decided this was news or rumour hence re-post.

[magickbk]

This sounds pretty bad. I read this as: We don't have any cash on hand, and we're up to our credit limit, so we've been taking your money and using it to order products for customers who already ordered previously, and we'll fulfill your order as soon as someone gives us some money that we can use to order it.

[Gotthammer]

PX40k has a good summary and theory of what's been going on (http://px40k.blogspot.com.au/search/label/maelstrom%20games), with a link to a thread on Dakka if you're so inclined.

[Denzark]

Gotty thanks for the news. It would seem from the linkys I am about to get stiffed.

Luckily this was payapl for me - so I have raised a dispute. My comments in the claim:

Dear Maelstrom I have started this dispute because of your last email. Having used your webform and you blamed GW, I phoned. I was told I'd get a phone call back. Nothing.I now see you email saying you will have a sale to enable you to raise cash to clear back orders. WRONG! You will use my money to buy what I paid for, not wait for a giant ponzi scheme to materialise.I hope I get my order and you are still good and this is a glitch. However if not and if you have been economical with the truth (if not your business model) I wish a pox on you. Let me know, Ta ta

However surprised this is not counted as news on BoLS front page - considering some of the 2 reply Warmahordes articles they will post. Is there not many Maelstrom users here?

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm really glad that I read this thread in its entirety. I was all "Woo! Stuff on sale!"

And then I finished the thread.

Yeah... not gonna happen.

[daboarder]

ouch wonder why? none of the other wholesalers are having problems as far as I'm aware.

[Denzark]

btw I'm not being what I understnad my colonial cousins might call an arsehat because thats how i repay loyal service. I have done this they have macked me off like a kipper in relying to my written query, not done what they said ie phone, and now have the temerity to hold a sale and state the proceeds will clear the backlog.

They have my guinea, I'll have my goods or their souls at grass before breakfast.

[inquisitorsog]

ouch wonder why? none of the other wholesalers are having problems as far as I'm aware.

If they had too big of a sale and people jumped on them, then on top of it misjudged what the sale would cost them, they could end up in trouble. Or, if their brick and mortar is hurting and cutting into profitability other trouble could be ensuing.

I am suspicious whenever I see anyone other than Amazon offering products for steep discounts AND free shipping on all orders. I've worked in mail order a long time ago and just the cost of boxes is a significant overhead. That's why you see a lot of these small shops shipping product in strange boxes. I buy from one that regularly ships in boxes that were previously used for medical supplies. I assume they're getting boxes that were headed for a recycle bin from a relative that works at a hospital or medical supply company or they're located next to one.

This is also a time of year a lot of retailers try to liquidate stale inventory so they can free up cash to buy up fresh (likely to sell) inventory ahead of Christmas. That doesn't seem to be the case here, but it's worth mentioning so no one panics if they see their favorite running a liquidation.

Using a cash account is always a bad idea when buying online. Credit cards have an invulnerable save that cash accounts don't have.

[Maine]

TheWarstore and MiniatureMarket have also recently done fairly hefty inventory clearance sales. However, both MM and Warstore only sell in-stock products.

It definitely sounds like Maelstrom ended up with some expense that exceeded their on-hand savings, but this isn't a pyramid scheme or ponzi scheme (at least not by the actual definition). Just poor business decisions or unfortunate circumstance.

Consider the scenario:

Imagine your company has $500 in the bank, and $2000 (your retail value) in stock on hand. You take orders for $600 (your cost) worth of product, which customers pay $800 for. You now have $1300 in the bank. $200 (your cost) of product is in your inventory, which you draw from, leaving $400 (your cost) to order.

Normally, all is well and good - you will order the items, pay for them on receipt or on account, and all is good.

Now lets alter the scenario:

Suddenly you have an unavoidable expense (tax bill, legal fee, etc) of $1000. If you do not cover this bill you will be out of business, able to cover those previous orders but then ceasing operations (unless failure to pay this amount immediately will inhibit even that). You pay that, and now you only have $300 to purchase $400 worth of product to fulfill orders... you now need to play catch-up.

Another example scenario - what if GW just shipped you 50 Tau Codexes with your order of 10 6th Ed Rulebooks. The shipment is COD, so you have to pay the extra ~$1000 or the order goes back, and you won't have any product for launch. This actually happened to a local (brick and mortar only) shop...

Liquidating physical stock is the best way to do it, but in a shortfall situation like this it's possible - for a VERY short time, on the assumption that sales will continue and you can make up the shortfall quickly - to use new sales proceeds to fulfill previous orders. It's risky business, but if the sales are anticipated to remain strong enough to catch up soon and you do not significantly delay orders, customers won't notice and you can recover. It sounds like Maelstrom games may have chosen the wrong strategy, fallen too far behind. They should have begun liquidating excess stock as soon as the problem occurred, even if it's at a loss.

[PierceC]

I think that most likely this has little to do with stock or cash flow problems, but like many companies they tried and expansion, utilised a lot of on hand capital, and then when that acquisition didn't pan out it hurt their core business. I am thinking Barclays - ABN Amro, and many other banks.

I think in the last 6 month, Maelstrom opened a massive gaming centre. Obviously that gaming centre has not attracted the numbers or volumes they thought it would and now they are struggling. I would say that it doesn't always end badly as MiniaturesByPost, now known as Dark Sphere, opened a medium sized gaming centre and that I think has actually increased their sales.

[Herzlos]

The Maelstrom gaming centre has existed for at least 18 months, though they have been doing it up. I think the expansion in question was getting a separate warehouse facility, which has been stalled for a while.

[gamesbluetiger]

I used to use Maelstrom alot, however their service became appalling! Just coincidence that this happens when forums are full of complaints about them? Hope that this is just a blip and Maelstrom come out the other end ok. Hate to see anyone go down and out of business.

[olberon]

doesnt GW have anything to do with the companies going belly up?? eg. changing tradepolicies or demanding payment on store credits and so??

[nomcruise]

doesnt GW have anything to do with the companies going belly up?? eg. changing tradepolicies or demanding payment on store credits and so??

Contrary to popular belief, GW doesn't cause every negative thing that happens to a gaming company or retailer. It seems that you don't have a very good grasp on economics and are just looking for a reason to start another "death to GW big evil toy company" chant so I'll spell it out for you:

step one: the company, maelstrom in this case, allows a customer to order a product that they do not currently have possession of.
step two: the company uses the money from the customer's order to acquire the product at their wholesale price
step thee: the company ships the customer their item.

Somewhere in between steps 1 and 2 the money gets used for something that doesn't involve acquiring that product for the customer and the company doesn't have enough cash on hand to get the items and cannot fulfill the order. It is entirely the responsibility of the retailer to have on hand the items that they are offering for sale or sufficient cash to get those items. From looking through maelstrom's website, they carry an immense range of products and (I'm not privy to volume numbers or anything of the like) most likely move as much if not more from these other manufacturers than they do from GW. If a retailer offers an irresponsible discount to the point that they don't make enough on their cut over the wholesaler price, its not the manufacturers fault. If a retailer continues to sell products that are not in stock when they don't have the cash flow to get those items, that's on them.

TLDR: I'm not a GW apologist, but I've worked in retail for close to 10 years now. Stop looking for a scapegoat in a regrettable situation where a retailer spent beyond their means and is close to folding over it. You take risks when you sell things for a discount off MSRP, and if you don't watch the margin closely, its on you.

[magickbk]

I believe what olberon was referring to is the rumors that surfaced a few weeks ago that GW was no longer allowing a few of the larger online retailers to order on credit. Many years ago, GW shut down online sales of GW product through third-parties. Most of the online stores currently order either through a comics distributor, or through GW by having a brick-and-mortar. The rumor was that GW had figured out which of the stores had online businesses and modified their credit rules for those retailers. Not sure there was any further news on that front.

Either way nomcruise, I agree with most of your points, but do understand that a lot of people in countries with absurd markups (AU!) need a place like Maelstrom to stay in the hobby.

[Mr Mystery]

Credit accounts may have been withdrawn. The question is why.

Remember folks, GW are here to make money. If a significant portion of debtors default, it would make good business sense to withdraw the credit. But as nobody but the debtor and the creditor would have the relevant information, this entire thread is just conjecture. Use it to bash GW if you must, but I reserve the right to smirking at the paranoid gibberings.

[Herzlos]

But reducing credit to reduce risk only applies if the debtor has become an increased risk. Even without a change in risk levels, if a debtor had a high enough turnover, a sudden reduction in credit could complete stall their business as they'd need to find a significant amount of capital in order to maintain the supply.

Not that I'm saying GW would necessarily do that, but as they don't have a history of being friendly towards competition (the overseas sales bans, suing bits companies out of existence), it wouldn't surprise me at all.

[eldargal]

Steve54 posted this on Warseer and I'm going to post it here because people need to get some perspective:

What is known
- there are some orders that are delayed
- they are doing a sale to move to a new business model
- the company is being split up into different parts (webstore, model line, events+B&M store)

Anything else is purely based on rumours generally started by newly registered posters or on unsubstantiated allegations by anonymous 'sources' with no evidence.
Anything about GW being barstudly, Maelstrom racking up significant debts etc. is just hearsay at this point.

[Herzlos]

They have also been shipping in stock items as normal, so there's no ponzi/pyramid scheme or anything as nefarious as that going on.

[walrusman999]

Dunno if you guys are aware of this site, http://www.spikeybits.com/servlet/StoreFront , but they do alot of international trade and sell cheaper then GW. For those of you who are hit hard by Maelstrom's issues, you can try here.

[Hatamoto]

Make sure you all stay away from http://eye-of-the-storm.co.uk/ , as this is the new website set up by the same people who ran maelstromgames. They do not answer mail or phone, and have no intention of refunding unsent orders made on the old website.

[Alqualonde]

Steve54 posted this on Warseer and I'm going to post it here because people need to get some perspective:

Anything about GW being barstudly, Maelstrom racking up significant debts etc. is just hearsay at this point.

Seems like Steve54 has a point. Nomcruise and Hatamoto seem to have appeared suddenly

[Hatamoto]

yeah appeared suddenly to share my experience with maelstromgames and how they have ripped myself and others off during this so called "warehouse move" ... If you cannot see that this new website is by the same people then i dont know what to say. Just a friendly warning to not deal with them if you value your hard earned cash. Not once have they tried to explain the situation or assure people that they will be refunded for undelivered orders, nothing. All they did was start up this new website under a new name and off we go again. Order anything thats not in stock, i dare you ...

[wittdooley]

Hey Moron. They tell you on the website NOT TO. Hardly their fault if you find reading so troublesome.

[Mr Mystery]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I do my shopping at my local store. If I place a mail order, it gets delivered there for free, which means no long arse walk down the industrial estate when Postie once again plays 'knock down ginger'. If I order it, it turns up. Plus, whether GW or Indy, if you don't use it, you may well lose it. Personally I could never run my own Indy as I cannot trust myself not to break the facial features of anyone who comes in to use my facilities free of charge, telling my paying customers about some discount I can't offer due to my inherent overheads. It's crass, it's rude, and it makes you an arsehat. And yes, I have seen such bragging.

[Hatamoto]

Hey Moron. They tell you on the website NOT TO. Hardly their fault if you find reading so troublesome.

The order was done 3 or so months ago, youd think they would refund for stuff they cant deliver before shutting down? And i must have trouble reading cause i cant find the bit of text you are refering to. All they say is the discount only works for things in stock. Not sure what that has to do with things though.

[eldargal]

Other people on Warseer have reported ordering hings (in stock) in the past week or so and receiving them normally within days. Maelstrom may be having issues meeting orders and giving refunds but the speculation is really getting out of hand.

[Hatamoto]

Sending things that are in stock should be no big deal now should it? Its not the stock items that is on the table here ...

[Herzlos]

Other people on Warseer have reported ordering hings (in stock) in the past week or so and receiving them normally within days. Maelstrom may be having issues meeting orders and giving refunds but the speculation is really getting out of hand.


I've had all 4 of my orders delivered in within a few days since the big sale started, but that's all been stuff that was in stock. I feel for the people who've been waiting months for GW stock, as I had that a while back.

There was a slight error with the order; I got less of 1 item I expected and more of another, but since the first item wasn't as useful as I was expecting I'm not put out enough to try and get it changed. The values are pretty much similar (and I paid about 50% of retail anyway)

[Hatamoto]

The same phone number that was on the maelstrom site is also on the eye-of-the-storm one, and no one is answering .. what a suprise

[MadCowCrazy]

So any actual news on what's happening to Maelstrom?
I have about £100 in orders I made in August that I haven't received and would like to cancel.
I opened a paypal dispute but it was too late to get a refund since you have to open it within 45 days.

Is my money gone? or is it possible to get it back somehow?

I have tried calling and emailing them for over a week now but no reply. So are we all boned or is there something we can do?

[Psychosplodge]

f your paypal is linked to your credit card you might be covered through you credit card company

[Daemonette666]

I still have a steam knight from the Kabuki Miniatures range that was pre-ordered back in May or June. I have noted that Mael-strom Games have listed the new (unreleased knights the ones with no art work)- Scarab, Angel, First, Hydra and Celestial. I will not be ordering those as pre-orders now.

The Steam Knight is not suppose to be released until 2013, what if Mael-strom games decides to not honour their paid for pre-orders? I will either have to try to cancel the order and get a refund through PayPal, or stick it out, and hope they send it once Kabuki release the miniature in 2013.

£34.10 + postage. I am tempted to try and get my money back. I have still not gotten my money back from an Ebay company Titanmech based in the UK. Ebay and Pay Pal have been giving me the run around and I have not have any resolution since my claim for a refund in January this year. It is the reason why I do not get involved in a lot of the kick starter projects.

[Mr Mystery]

Just a friendly line. For those in the UK, Paypal are under the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsmen Service.

As such, you can refer complaints to the Service for dispute resolution. I know they cover business/PayPal issues, but give us a ring and see if we can help. We're free, and impartial.

[Denzark]

Just got my paypal back...

[MadCowCrazy]

Just got my paypal back...

You just received a refund? from Maelstrom Games?
How much and for what? How long ago was the order placed?

[Denzark]

technically... Actually I managed to raise a paypal dispute in time and got £25 back when they ruled in my favour. No contact from Maelstrom and I will be expecting my cashback as well...

[Hatamoto]

Paypal can seriously improve their customer support by not being anal about the 45 days ... really annoying

[Gotthammer]

Relevant info from a distributor on the Wyrd Forums (http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?36615-Retro-Fate-Deck-out-of-stock&p=466860&viewfull=1#post466860) (discussion about someone not getting an order from Maelstrom, and them saying out of stock with supplier):

"Maelstrom won't be getting any more Malifaux from us as he's been cut off due to his massive debt, which has now been sold via a debt purchase company who will be pursuing the debt and legal action.

MG is running his final sales (several of them) and there is nothing much left. No further stock will be sent from us.

All fate Decks, Retro Decks, rulebooks etc are all in stock here and you'll find them at any other stockist in the UK who have ordered them in. Try Firestorm, Wargames Workshop, Waugh Games, Arcane, Wayland Games, Waylands Forge, Spirit Games, Total Wargamer, Worthy Wargaming, Titan Games or any of the dozens of others who have plenty of Malifaux on the shelves.

We have re-stocks coming in every other week and pretty much running straight out the door to all the stockists, so we're just ordering even more"

[Mr Mystery]

Well that's caused a rather surprising turn.

Is the source credible?

[Gotthammer]

Quote is from Wyrd's UK distributor who dealt with Maelstrom, so probably.

[Mr Mystery]

On account of professional training, do we know poster is who poster claims?

Not looking to call anyone a liar, just fact checking :)

[Gotthammer]

Did you click the link?
He's posting on the official Wyrd forum saying he's their UK distributor with a admin generated title under his username saying "Wyrd Distributor". So, yeah, I think we can assume he's probably who he says he is.

[Mr Mystery]

Sounds like Maelstrom are deep in the poop then!

[eldargal]

So the rumoured massive debt was with Wyrd not GW, so does that mean it was Wyrd deliberately tryingto sink online retailers now?:rolleyes:

[Mr Mystery]

No. Because they apparently aren't Evil Corp, subsidiary of Games Workshop Plc.

Good point though :p

[DarkDesigner]

So the rumoured massive debt was with Wyrd not GW, so does that mean it was Wyrd deliberately tryingto sink online retailers now?:rolleyes:

Thing is, Wyrd have always seemed to be really open with their customers about the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, so all we know is that Wyrd have decided not to restock Maelstrom. Conjecture again but it could be that many of the companies who supply Maelstrom with stock have cut them off, but are being more opaque about it. Wyrd are the only ones who have admitted it.

Interesting that we have this from a retailer and yet Maelstrom assure us:


We have not made this decision lightly, and please note that we have absolutely no issues with any of the above manufacturers or suppliers; we are simply trying to sell off stock in order to clear older orders and ease any worries our customers may have regarding the speculation that is currently rife on the internet.

[Lockark]

The rumor going around was that Malestorm got hit by a huge govrenment find for not paying their taxs that put them in debt realy bad and ruined their credit.

It sounds like Wyrd is confirming that Malestorm's Credit is no good anymore.

[wittdooley]

You can still order from them reliably for their in stock. Bane Beasts and Bane Legions are 50% off right now. I wholeheartedly encourage you all to order something. Got my Creoda today. He's beautiful.

[DarkDesigner]

You can still order from them reliably for their in stock. Bane Beasts and Bane Legions are 50% off right now. I wholeheartedly encourage you all to order something. Got my Creoda today. He's beautiful.

I don't know, I had a look through pretty much everything they had but there was nothing in stock that jumped out at me as worth snapping up. Will be waiting to see what happens when their sale ends.

[wittdooley]

I don't know, I had a look through pretty much everything they had but there was nothing in stock that jumped out at me as worth snapping up. Will be waiting to see what happens when their sale ends.

Did you look at any of the darklands stuff??

[Gotthammer]

It's over, red rover - Wayland hits Maelstrom with a StrD for debt template of doom:

OFFICIAL NOTICE (https://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/)

Maelstrom Games Ltd. has ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point over the next few months.

A creditor of Maelstrom Games Ltd., Wayland Games Ltd., issued a Statutory Demand under section 123(1)(a) or 221(1)(a) of the Insolvency Act, 1986 on the 17th of October, 2012 for �99,773.61 plus costs of issuing and serving the demand.

This debt was purchased from Simple Miniature Games by Wayland Games Ltd on the 1st of October, 2012 and payment of this debt was demanded in full by Wayland Games after seven days had elapsed. Unfortunately, Maelstrom Games Ltd. could not pay Wayland Games Ltd. this debt in full within those seven days.

Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of �500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course.

All creditors will be issued the relevant notices by the assigned Insolvency Practitioner when Maelstrom Games Ltd. enters liquidation.

-

Though Wayland are saying that payments weren't being made (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1140/464643.page#4963208) in an orderly fashion, and the debt call in wasn't to crush their retail enemies and see them driven before them.

[Mr Mystery]

Seems a bit odd for a competitor to procure your debt. I do wonder about the legality of that. Not that I'd know, as I have incredibly little legal knowledge.

Now to sit back, relax and watch people blame it all on GW...

[Chimericist]

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/downloads/Maelstrom-Action.pdf

Wayland's response. Evidently Maelstrom has not been paying it's suppliers. Also, notice how Maelstrom games moved Banelegions into a separate company, and are now operating a brand new company http://eye-of-the-storm.co.uk/ that looks exactly like Maelstrom's old site.

It's no wonder they could offer such discounts on their products--they don't pay their bills!

Anyone else have more details?

[Gotthammer]

Thanks for the link, Chimericist.
Not heard anything else but I doubt Eye of the Storm will be a go-to store any time soon.


Here's the text for those who can't see the PDF:

All in the Gaming Community,

As news of our action regarding Maelstrom Games is public we would like to take a moment to explain the steps we have taken, and why.

Some time ago we became aware of discussions at various events where there was a constant chatter about the financial situation that Maelstrom Games found itself in and the significant debts it suffered from. We ignored them to begin with but it seemed that in the events scene in the UK it was being discussed openly. We noticed that tickets were being sold a year in advance for some events. We then see hundreds of thousands of pounds being pushed into a miniatures line whilst Maelstrom Games still owed significant monies to suppliers. Suppliers we (and countless other retailers) share and rely upon for the timely distribution of product to fulfil our customer orders.

This industry is in our opinion, too small and too close for such a situation to occur, as the wider implications would mean hundreds of people - customers - you - potentially losing the money you had paid out for product and event tickets.

It was clear that Maelstrom Games Limited were in significant trouble, yet they continued to invest in other areas despite still owing very significant and growing amounts to suppliers causing a great deal of pressure on the supply chain.

In early May we decided to offer to buy Maelstrom Games, including honouring all liabilities for the business. Our email was ignored. In late May a follow up email was sent and again that was ignored.

We therefore looked to protect our customers by looking to protect the supply chain and also ourselves (as well as any of the other independent retailers who rely on this same supply chain) from the collapse of a major retailer, and managed to purchase the main debt that Maelstrom owe, in an attempt to force a resolution, rather than allow an uncontrolled collapse and all the knock on effects that would unleash on the industry.

The situation is complicated and there is quite a process to move through, but we are undertaking this action with the best of intentions for our customers, customers of Maelstrom Games and our supply chain, and will endeavor to keep all affected notified of developments as they occur.

We will be issuing information Via our Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/WaylandGamesLtd
And by email, subscribe here: http://eepurl.com/p-Wg1

Wayland Games Ltd

[Mr Mystery]

So after a fashion, due to shonky business decisions, Maelstrom's condition could prove contagious? I mean looking at the size of debt Wayland bought (and it's pretty significant), wholesaler distributors may have been pushed to the brink, either financially, or the producers of the goods (GW, PP etc) refusing to deal with them, meaning other retailers being unable to obtain stock?

If I've interpreted correctly (and I may not have) then Maelstrom sound like a bunch of bellends.

Having a quick shufty at 'Eye of the Storm' it seem they don't stock GW stuff. Not at all sure how well they'll do without the most popular lines...

[lattd]

Clever move by waylands, and yea its totally legal to buy debt, its just like buying a house someone is renting, you buy the item and then get a return, but its also how all the banks and the world economy is run so maybe not the safest move.

[Mr Mystery]

I knew that your creditor could sell your debt on, but I wasn't aware anyone but specialised and licensed debt collection companies could do it without having to buy the entire company.

'Nuff respect to Wayland for putting their own neck on the line. It's tempting me to order from them as a show of support. I mean it's likely that they wouldn't have paid the price of the debt (again quite possibly wrong here) but even so, they've taken a risk and I'm willing to do my bit to see it pays off for them.

[magickbk]

If I'm reading this right, and I'm sure there is some information that is not public between Wayland and upstream distributors, it appears as if Maelstrom's methods were putting financial strain on shared distributors and small gaming companies/studios, such that Wayland was willing to foot the bill to make sure that said companies themselves did not start to collapse, which in turn would mean that Wayland was unable to procure product to sell. They've basically propped up the sector(what we in the US know as a Government Bailout), and taken the burden of legal action away from the distributors. It looks far worse for customers to be in legal contention than competitors.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

So Maelstrom was too big (in a small pond) to fail? Interesting stuff, thanks for the links and news on this.

Wargaming these days is like following soccer - you start off with an innocent interest in a hobby you enjoy, but pretty soon you're following the money and the business decisions all over the place.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno if Maelstrom was too big to fail, but certainly the size of it's debt(s?) posed a risk to others.

I'm guessing Maelstrom's owners name is now mud in the Indy market. I'm surprised they've pulled a Phoenix quite so quickly.

[lattd]

Easy to do a phoenix in England however if someone questioned the directors ability would be very interesting, could see an inquiry and some of the directors being banned.

[Mr Mystery]

To me it's more they launched Eye of the Storm prior to Maelstrom's demise.

Seems naughty to me. Especially as stylistically, it just seems to have been a name change.

[Bigred]

There is way more to this story - coming soon.

With all sides issuing official statements.

[Mr Mystery]

Make it so!

[Gotthammer]

Here's the supposed Simple Games statement succinctly sequestered so something something:

-

Statement Regarding Maelstrom Games Ltd

On the 1st October we made the difficult decision to assign the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games to Wayland Games Ltd for a nominal fee.

This debt at the point sold stood at just under £100,000 and has been outstanding at that level and higher for over 12 months. This debt built up during a short space of time during the busiest period in our 10 year history just after significant amounts had been paid for other invoices. Promises were made to clear a large portion of the debt within a short space of time but that payment never materialised. A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.

It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt.

Demands for the reimbursement of the failed payments and for payment of stock supplied on the 12th September for Maelstrom Games customer orders were completely ignored. As such on October 1st 2012 the debt was sold to the company which offered the best solution, not immediately for us, but for what I considered the best long term solution for our industry in the UK. We chose Wayland Games as they have a vested interest in the hobby and industry and will offer better protection to potential customers, suppliers and manufacturers, other companies would not.

We have continued to trade as normal during the entire period of this debt and continue to order from our suppliers and pay them on time. Maelstrom Games are only one customer out of several dozen and our whole customer base is far, far greater than any one company.

You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.

This debt has not adversely affected Simple Miniature Games as a company as we can afford to continue to trade with this debt outstanding due to the reliability of our customer base and strong product lines. It has however affected myself and my wife personally as the reserves we have built over 10 years of hard work have had to cover the debt. It was always our intention to use around half of this profit to expand our warehouse and bring in another two or three new ranges including manufacturing our own. However this will now have to wait whilst we consolidate and build up the reserves for our future once again.


-

So yeah, not ordering from Eye of the Storm, then.


Edit: Red, I was hoping for some sort of official BoLS interviews here - not copypasta of statements we already had here (ok, two outta three ain't bad :p) - we demand hard hitting journalism at it's finest!
Gimmie some sweet! Ha ha! Reference!

[Mr Mystery]

Defo placing a decent sized order with Wayland once my finances have settled. They need out support folks, and more importantly in my opinion deserve it!

I'm going for the Discworld Range. Landlady at my local pub likes them, so paint them up and donate!

[daboarder]

at this point I don't trust these guys anymore.

They are claiming the debt and dissatisfaction from the distributors is for one thing, while the distributors are the only one offering solid details instead of broad explanations.


from the looks of things its sounds like maelstrom has been trying to pull a fast one on a number of their suppliers by setting up maelstrom as a shell company.....that's going to go bad for them once the authorities are involved.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. Seems quite shady.

As for Banebeasts, quick google suggests the line has been bought out. Anyone able to advise if said company, Mierce Miniatures are just another wing on the Phoenix, or a long existing company bagging a solid line? If it's the former, I shall refrain from purchase.

[schmoozies]

Yeah steer clear of Mierce its all part of the same shell that was Mealstrom.

[daboarder]

Yeah steer clear of Mierce its all part of the same shell that was Mealstrom.

Can we get your sources?

Don't want to vilify an honest games company if this is wrong.

[Chimericist]

Public Records:

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/1655939/robert-lane
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/mierce-miniatures
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/maelstrom-games

Robert Lane is director of all the companies. Maelstrom and Mierce have the same address.

Also, reported by leonmallet (http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/11/10/66604/comment-page-1/#comment-89167)


Some Basic Information about Maelstrom Games Ltd and related business entities.

Maelstrom Games Ltd. (active company; registered 07/04/2003) has one listed Director – Robert Lane. It has two listed Shareholders, Robert Lane and Jonathon Paul Price. Net Worth: £-132,432 based on the accounts filed in 2012.

Maunsfield Gaming Ltd. (active company; registered20/06/2012) was previously known as EYE OF THE STORM (MANSFIELD) LIMITED and has one listed Director – Robert Lane. Shareholder details are not yet listed. Accounts are required to be filed on or before 31/01/2014.

Penda Strategies Ltd. (active company; registered 15/06/2012) was known previously as Maelstrom Wargames Limited until 06/09/2012; Robert Lane is the only listed director. Shareholder details are not yet listed. Accounts are required to be filed on or before 31/01/2014.

Anglia Games Limited was registered 15/06/2012; Robert Lane appears to be a director.

Mierce Miniatures Ltd. was registered 26/02/2009; Robert Lane is the sole listed director. Shareholder details are not yet listed. Net Worth: £0, based on the accounts filed in 2012.

There is a dissolved Maelstrom Games Ltd.

Maelstrom Games Ltd., Anglia Games Ltd., Penda Strategies Ltd., Maunsfield Gaming Ltd. and Mierce Miniatures Ltd. share the same registered address:
106 CARTER LANE
MANSFIELD
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE
NG18 3DH

[daboarder]

Public Records:

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/director/1655939/robert-lane
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/mierce-miniatures
http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/maelstrom-games

Robert Lane is director of all the companies. Maelstrom and Mierce have the same address.

Also, reported by leonmallet (http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/11/10/66604/comment-page-1/#comment-89167)

Wonderful, thanks guys for doing that ground work. Much appreciated.

Interestingly some of those company names have been owned for a while.

[Mr Mystery]

Dammit! Oh well. No spangly nice beasties for my shelveses.

[Denzark]

Interesting that you ask Schmoozies for his sources Daboarder, and then Chimericist pops up and just happens to have the gen at his fingertips. I wonder what 'their' interest is...

[daboarder]

Interesting that you ask Schmoozies for his sources Daboarder, and then Chimericist pops up and just happens to have the gen at his fingertips. I wonder what 'their' interest is...

Don't really care, my opinion is based on the information at hand (governmental) not the people peddling it.

[Denzark]

No, sure, they have gratified what you were after. But the 2 post count is suspicious, I detect sock puppets. Actually, I find Wayland's statement to be doing it in the interest of the community, jarring - I reckon they are far more self interested than that...

[Psychosplodge]

Well everyone generally acts in self interest, but if it coincides with the wider community good all the better?

[Mr Mystery]

No, sure, they have gratified what you were after. But the 2 post count is suspicious, I detect sock puppets. Actually, I find Wayland's statement to be doing it in the interest of the community, jarring - I reckon they are far more self interested than that...

Perhaps so, altruism is a rare thing. But regardless of motive, they have my support, and soon an order or two.

[Col.Gravis]

I think its true there is a benefit to the 'community', Maelstrom were clearly in trouble and this does appear to have impacted upon their suppliers (given Simple Miniatures statement which I suspect is likely to be the one with the least bias), though not irrevocably so - that situation would likely only have gotten worse and had a more significant impact.

It would be nieve to suggest that Wayland will not benefit from a significant competitor being removed from the market place though, and I very much doubt that was not a concideration in their decision to act as they have, but this is business, and in that sense while it may seem underhand to us, that influence is perfectly reasonable in a business sense IMHO.

[Denzark]

Mutual assistance is where I go to Wayland to get cheap plastic crack, he makes a profit. Debt buying then claiming it to be for the community is a bit rich, I would rather be told 'I saw an awesome opportunity to smash a business competitor into the ground, thus increasing my profit margins and decreasing competition. Oh, by the way you will all get cheap stuff still.'

[eldargal]

I was under the impression that Wayland bought the debt in order to help the companies that supplied both they and Maelstrom, if they had gone under Wayland may not have been able to fulfill orders so it would have hurt them. Less of a 'we're doing it out of the good of our hearts' and more alongthe lines of 'if Maelstrom goes under it could take a bunch of other companies that supply us with it so we are taking steps to stop it from snowballing'.

[Denzark]

Mind you, Maelstrom are now even more cheekier barstewards:

http://www.eye-of-the-storm.co.uk

[daboarder]

Mind you, Maelstrom are now even more cheekier barstewards:

http://www.eye-of-the-storm.co.uk

I wonder how many angry ticked off online customers would be willing to go to the "bricks and mortar store" and demand the product they paid for. Christ if someone pulled something like this on me, refused contact and then tried to shift assets and lump debt I'd burn their "brick and mortar" store to the ground.

note: I'm not advocating arson

[Herzlos]

I doubt I'll be anywhere near the store any time soon, but at some point I'll send them a sales enquiry asking what's happening with my missing and incorrect items, if EOTS starts stocking them.

[Chimericist]

No, sure, they have gratified what you were after. But the 2 post count is suspicious, I detect sock puppets. Actually, I find Wayland's statement to be doing it in the interest of the community, jarring - I reckon they are far more self interested than that...

I'm kind of flattered. I'm just really interested in this and this was the first forum I found that had anyone discussing it. (I joined a few years ago for a contest). All that I know I found through comments on http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/ . I'd like to know the full story, and it seems like plenty of people know it but are not talking yet.

I always used to order from maelstrom, and its disturbing to think they've been acting so shady but--so far--that's what it looks like. I'm just glad I got my last order from them.

[inquisitorsog]

I wonder how many angry ticked off online customers would be willing to go to the "bricks and mortar store"...

With your brick and mortar FLGS, it's a lot easier to get attention from your FLLEA (friendly local law enforcement agency). Law Enforcement is still trying to figure out this whole internet and globalization fad and some "merchants" are taking advantage of it just like they used to take advantage of small ads and classified ads back when we had gaming magazines. With the internet, they can just process a lot more suckers faster at lower cost.

[Beagle]

I was under the impression that Wayland bought the debt in order to help the companies that supplied both they and Maelstrom, if they had gone under Wayland may not have been able to fulfill orders so it would have hurt them. Less of a 'we're doing it out of the good of our hearts' and more alongthe lines of 'if Maelstrom goes under it could take a bunch of other companies that supply us with it so we are taking steps to stop it from snowballing'.
Wayland forced Maelstrom into an involuntary liquidation. Any creditors of Maelstrom got screwed.

It's pretty unlikely that Wayland actually made the situation better.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet very few cases of liquidation are voluntary. Someone always owns your debt, and can call it in when terms of the contract are broken.

And that's what Wayland appear to have done. I have no sympathy for Maelstrom. You did dodgy deals, and someone is going to call you on it.

[Wildeybeast]

Yet very few cases of liquidation are voluntary. Someone always owns your debt, and can call it in when terms of the contract are broken.

And that's what Wayland appear to have done. I have no sympathy for Maelstrom. You did dodgy deals, and someone is going to call you on it.

It doesn't even need to be 'dodgy' deals. There is no defence for Maelstrom. Whatever they did, they took on more debt than they could afford to pay back and someone called it in. They failed to adhere to one of the most basic principles of economics which is not to borrow more than you can afford to pay back and as such they have paid the price. Any talk of Wayland as saviours of the community or putting competitors out of business is just PR spin. Maelstrom cocked up and in that regard are in the wrong, end of.

[inquisitorsog]

Wayland forced Maelstrom into an involuntary liquidation. Any creditors of Maelstrom got screwed.

It's pretty unlikely that Wayland actually made the situation better.

Per Simple Miniatures statement
"A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.
"It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt."

If it is that simple, then SMG was already initiating a process whereby they would have forced Maelstrom to liquidate regardless. Wayland bailed out SMG from a significant hit as debt collection agencies rarely pay more than pennies on the pound. SMG's owners had given up a hefty portion of their own personal funds to foot the bill of Maelstrom's effective default. Wayland is acting out of mutual self interest, for sure, but SMG is the beneficiary of that. Who else is screwed by this, I don't know, but it sounds like any Maelstrom customers other than those buying their leftovers were already screwed. That likely means any other creditors were already screwed as well.

[Beagle]

Yet very few cases of liquidation are voluntary. Someone always owns your debt, and can call it in when terms of the contract are broken.
Surprisingly not true, at least here in the states and in my experience.

Most liquidations are voluntary (the company enters into it on their own accord) rather than involuntary (the company is forced into it by a creditor or judge). Most creditors won't push a company into liquidation because it's expensive and he's often worse off under a liquidation than he was as a creditor.