Imotekh VS Fliers

[Learn2Eel]

Hey guys, just got a rules query here.
Now, in the recent 6th Edition FAQS, auto-hit weapons i.e. Njal's Lightning or the Doom Scythe's Death Ray (but not Vector Strikes) or weapons that cannot be snap-fired cannot hit zooming fliers.

In regards to Imotekh's Lord of the Storm special rule, how should this rule be interpreted, as a unit suffers D6 hits on a roll of a 6?
My personal opinion is that as the roll of a 6 is not a to-hit roll, you cannot hit zooming fliers with Imotekh's lightning. However, there are some Necron players in my LGS that argue that the roll of a 6 is actually a roll to hit, even if it does not explicitly say so in the special rule itself.
I was looking to get some more opinions on this matter so I can hopefully settle the dispute one way or the other. From my point of view, it is like saying "on a +4 the unit suffers D6 S4 AP5 hits" - there is no true roll to hit is there? I'm really leaning towards "it doesn't affect flyers", though it hasn't actually happened to me yet nothing would hurt more than a zooming Heldrake dying due to lightning.

Thanks for any and all input.

[Nabterayl]

While I think "environmental" effects like this should be able to hit zooming flyers and swooping flying monstrous creatures (SFASFMCs), I think the FAQ is clear: the rule is that "Only Snap Shots" can hit SFASFMCs. The storm effect is not a shot made at BS1, even though it has identical base odds of success.

[Learn2Eel]

While I think "environmental" effects like this should be able to hit zooming flyers and swooping flying monstrous creatures (SFASFMCs), I think the FAQ is clear: the rule is that "Only Snap Shots" can hit SFASFMCs. The storm effect is not a shot made at BS1, even though it has identical base odds of success.

I do agree, and I can see why the Necron players in my store would argue the point - how does lightning hit ground targets but not flyers as well? In any case, thanks for the input :)

[DarkLink]

Is Imotekh's ability a shooting attack? If it is, it needs to snap fire, and can't hit because it can't snap fire. If it's not a shooting attack, then you're good, because the 'only snap fire' specifically refers to shooting attacks, I believe.

[Learn2Eel]

Is Imotekh's ability a shooting attack? If it is, it needs to snap fire, and can't hit because it can't snap fire. If it's not a shooting attack, then you're good, because the 'only snap fire' specifically refers to shooting attacks, I believe.

It is done at the start of the shooting phase, but it doesn't say anything about whether or not it is treated as a shooting attack. The only relevant FAQ entries I see are that it ignores Stealth and Shrouded bonuses from Night Fighting and hits vehicles on their side armour. Hmm now I'm not so sure on this one.

It does say this in the rulebook FAQ;
"....any attacks that....otherwise don't roll to hit cannot target them"

I guess it depends on whether you class Imotekh's lightning as a shooting attack.

[Nabterayl]

If it's not a shooting attack, then you're good, because the 'only snap fire' specifically refers to shooting attacks, I believe.
I think that's how it should be, but I don't think it is. The FAQ says, "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes ..." and goes on to list a number of shooting attacks. The base rule, though, is still "Only Snap Shots can hit ZFASFMCs. Thus, if Lord of the Storm is not a shooting attack, it can't hit ZFASFMCs because it can't Snap Shot. And I don't see why we should classify it as a shooting attack - it doesn't count as Imotekh firing a weapon, doesn't require line of sight from any point on the board, doesn't originate from any point on the board, and doesn't even require Imotekh to be alive. The only things that are shooting attack-like about it are that it occurs at the start of the necron shooting phase and it doesn't hit automatically, which are insufficient, in my view, to classify it as a shooting attack.

[Learn2Eel]

Just a quick update in case anyone was still wondering about this, my LGS owner called up a rules expert for GW very recently and they said that; 'as it isn't a shooting attack, it can't snap fire against zooming flyers or swooping flying monstrous creatures and thus cannot hit them'. It has popped up a number of times in my local store and I thought this answer might be useful if anyone was wondering.
And yes, thread necromancy! Mwahahahaha!

[Mr Mystery]

I agree it shouldn't hit them.
Mostly because of physics. Lightning hits a flier, it doesn't ground. Therefore little damage caused.

[Demonus]

So planes need never fear getting struck by lightning?


that being said, I can see an argument either way, you ARE required to roll a 6 to "hit" with Imotekh's ability, however it isnt a snap firing shooting attack. My suggestion is to just roll a d6 if it is contested until a FAQ rules for or against. 4+ he can hit the flier, 1-3 he cannot.

[Muninwing]

rules-wise, only snapshots can hit flyers. if it can't snap shoot...

physics-wise, airplanes are built to channel electricity around the outer shell, so planes that are hit by lightning don't just crash. it can short out some systems, occasionally causes minor issues and prompts a landing, but by and large it's not a threat.

physlink says "Estimates show that each commercial airliner averages one lighting hit per year but the last crash that was attributed to lightning was in 1967 when the fuel tank exploded, causing the plane to crash."

45+ years without a crash due to lightning? tells me that they are pretty lightning-resistant. and while some of that might have been lost in the dark age of technology, it's a pretty strong case for it not being a real issue, so the rules make a heckuva lot of sense.

[Angelofblades]

From the Rulebook FAQ


Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

[Warp dust]

The hard to hit rule only applies to weapons being fired at it not to game or character effects as the term shots is being used. There is no mention of special rules and or abilities here. Terms "skyfire" and "snap shots" only apply to weapons, not abilities. It does not say the only way to hit a zooming flyer is with snap shots, it says shots resolved at a zooming flyer are snap shots. This is how our lgs has interpreted the rule.

[Nefarius Drapesh]

or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them

guess it's just me reading this absolutely concrete...

[Nabterayl]

guess it's just me reading this absolutely concrete...
No, I read it that way too.

[Warp dust]

It does say this in the rulebook FAQ;
"....any attacks that....otherwise don't roll to hit cannot target them"



Imotekhs ability is not an attack. Does not apply here.

[Nabterayl]

Imotekhs ability is not an attack. Does not apply here.
I'd agree that it isn't Imotekh attacking them. But I'd disagree that it isn't an attack, period.

[Learn2Eel]

The hard to hit rule only applies to weapons being fired at it not to game or character effects as the term shots is being used. There is no mention of special rules and or abilities here. Terms "skyfire" and "snap shots" only apply to weapons, not abilities. It does not say the only way to hit a zooming flyer is with snap shots, it says shots resolved at a zooming flyer are snap shots. This is how our lgs has interpreted the rule.

The problem with the logic used in your store is that an ability the Warpsmith has - the "Curse" - has to snap shot. It is not a weapon, and therefore I think in this case one can assume a similar ruling should apply to Imotekh. That, and I doubt you can classify something that inflicts damage as not being an 'attack'.

[Warp dust]

I think everyone is missing the point of the rule. The hard to hit rule applies to models targeting the flyers. Imotekh isn't targeting anything. Although its just my opinion, lightning coming from the sky above fliers should be able to hit fliers.

[Nefarius Drapesh]

but for novas and maelstorms the term "area effect" would fit better than "targeting", too. ;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2012/may/16/worried-lightning-striking-plane

[Learn2Eel]

That's the problem though. The BRB FAQ does not discriminate between an "attack" or ability, given the first sentence;


Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The rest of the paragraph describes specific examples where the above ruling takes precedence. 'Only Snap Shots' is all one needs to say to put the Imotekh's lightning argument to bed, even if I do agree it would make sense for lightning to strike the aircraft.

[gcsmith]

That's the problem though. The BRB FAQ does not discriminate between an "attack" or ability, given the first sentence;



The rest of the paragraph describes specific examples where the above ruling takes precedence. 'Only Snap Shots' is all one needs to say to put the Imotekh's lightning argument to bed, even if I do agree it would make sense for lightning to strike the aircraft.

Lightning can hit them all they want, but unless the aircraft are made out of wood or something, they would be completely unaffected by lightning due to the Faraday affect.

[Magpie]

Doesn't it come down to :
Only snap shots can hit flyers and any shooting attack that does not use ballistic skill cannot fire a snap shot?

The lightning doesn't use BS so no snap shot so no hitting flyers.


The problem with the logic used in your store is that an ability the Warpsmith has - the "Curse" - has to snap shot. It is not a weapon, and therefore I think in this case one can assume a similar ruling should apply to Imotekh. That, and I doubt you can classify something that inflicts damage as not being an 'attack'.

The curse however does use the ballistic skill/to hit process, the only thing unusual is the "damage" it inflicts.

[Warp dust]

And I don't see why we should classify it as a shooting attack - it doesn't count as Imotekh firing a weapon, doesn't require line of sight from any point on the board, doesn't originate from any point on the board, and doesn't even require Imotekh to be alive.

Nab- when something says "if your army includes..." Does that mean they can die and still have the effects continue? I thought includes meant he still had to be alive.

[Learn2Eel]

It can be either way, actually; I can't remember off of the top of my head, but some special rules characters bring to the game continue to have an effect even after they are removed as a casualty.
In fact, reading the Necron codex, Nabterayl is completely accurate; as long as Imotekh is part of your army list, night fighting happens automatically on the first turn, and you roll corresponding to what is required in his special rules for the rest of the game, regardless of whether he dies or not. If it didn't continue to occur after he died, it would specify that was the case.
Granted, not all characters function in this way. Njal's Storm continues even if he dies, but seeing as there is no Njal model to draw line of sight to, the effects can't be felt.

[Magpie]

Nab- when something says "if your army includes..." Does that mean they can die and still have the effects continue? I thought includes meant he still had to be alive.

"Generally" rules that end with a character's death or don't kick in until he deploys, will say something like "While UberHQDude is on the table, "

"If your army includes" is usually taken to mean if he is in your list.

[Demonus]

Nab- when something says "if your army includes..." Does that mean they can die and still have the effects continue? I thought includes meant he still had to be alive.

Do all your marines lose twin link for Flamers and Meltas if Vulkan dies?

[Nabterayl]

Nab- when something says "if your army includes..." Does that mean they can die and still have the effects continue? I thought includes meant he still had to be alive.
"If your army includes" means only that your army includes; as Learn2Eel and Magpie explained, the included character/item needn't be on the table, or even alive.

Do all your marines lose twin link for Flamers and Meltas if Vulkan dies?
No. Combat Tactics is a rule that each unit has individually; it isn't granted by the presence of a special character. A special character may (but need not) remove Combat Tactics and grant a different rule to various units in your army, but they're still rules owned by those units. As Vulkan's entry says, "If you include He'stan ..." Vulkan needn't be on the table, or alive, for you to have "included" him.

[Magpie]

Think most if not all of the "Chapter Tactics" rules say that they replace or the unit loses Combat Tactics?

You only get a choice when there are two units that gran Chapter Tactics