Common Chaos Space Marines - Troop choice

[Eberk]

After reading my brand new Chaos Space Marine codex I started pondering about how to best use/equip my common Chaos Space Marines. And to be honest I really don't know.

That's why I ask you guys for information/tactics/...

The way it is you have 3 options: Bolter, 2 close combat weapons or both with a maximum of 20 models per squad.
Problem is that the only transport available is the Rhino (= not an assault vehicle and 10 models transport capacity)

So, what do you guys think are good tactical options to use the common Chaos Marine ?

20 strong with bolters ?? 10 strong with 2 close combat weapons mounted in a Rhino ?? 15 strong with both ?? Or something else ??

And as an added question: Which heavy/special weapons do you use in those squads ? and why ?
(rapid fire Plasma gun and charging your close combat squad don't mix ;))


Thanks for all your insights and comments/tactics/experiences/...

[Learn2Eel]

Hey mate, I think how you outfit your squads depends on what role you want them to do on a per-squad basis. If you want one squad to sit on an objective, a missile launcher and a plasma gun would be a good bet. For a more aggressive midfield objective grabber, you can give them the second close combat weapon (purely up to you, a ten man squad will pay close to 20 points that could be spent on special weapons) and a mix of plasma guns and meltaguns, sticking them in a rhino.
Personally, I use 10-man squads with a plasma gun and meltagun with just the standard boltgun/pistol loadout in a rhino. They are cheap, durable, mobile and can deal with a wide variety of threats.
There is also the question of your champions' loadout; personally I ignore these unless I feel my squad needs a power fist. However, a champion with the mark of slaanesh and a power sword can be a nasty challenger.

As far as marks go, they are really based on how you view your troops and whether you think the buff will be worth it for their role. For an objective holder, the mark of Nurgle is always a great bet - even for midfield grabbers too. For an aggressive midfield unit, the mark of khorne is also good. The mark of slaanesh can be very handy against other Marine armies too. The icons are situational; feel no pain is great but expensive, fear and soul blaze aren't that useful, and Furious charge/re-roll charge distances are worthwhile only on dedicated melee units.

The best way to figure out what works best is to try a few different combinations. A popular one is the standard marine with the mark of Nurgle for the same cost as a Loyalist marine!

[Blackmonkey0]

I like to let the fluff direct me so my Khorne CSMs are 10men - Poweraxe, Flamer, HvyBolter, 9x CCW, IoV in a Rhino.
May try them with MoK in my next game - but it pushes their price over that of my Zerkers.
Icon is there to keep them hanging around.

[Saint_Anger]

I play Thousand Sons army, so my units always be long-ranged fighters. For Chaos Space Marines squad, I use pretty much the same as Learn2Eel said above except that I use 2 meltaguns. Ten-man squad with 2 meltaguns & rhino is quite durable. If I have some points to spare, I'll add icon of vengeance to make them Fearless.

[Eberk]

Hey, thanks for the info guys.

@Learn2Eel: I deliberatly left out what I planned to do with my squads to receive feedback about all sort of squads (firefight, close combat, etc...)


I plan on creating an Emperors Children Warband, so Mark of Slaanesh and Veterans of the Long War are mandatory (fluff-wise, so even for Havocs).

I wanted to use the new Aspiring Champion model as champion for a close combat (change bolter for close combat weapon) squad. Sadly, the Mark of Slaanesh is not really helpful with a Power Axe. And I wasn't sure that 10 marines were enough (more can not fit in a Rhino) especially when they can't assault after disembarking.

Because I don't play very often (and most of the time not with CSM but with Orks) I wanted to have some 'heads up' before glueing and painting my CSM. (I want my models to be as WYSIWYG as possible)


Keep those insights/comments/etc... comming. Thanks in advance.

[DWest]

With MoS, I'd give strong thought to a 20-blob with the Icon as a back-field objective holder. Still fairly cheap (~310 pts) and very tough to kill down. For a mobile squad, I really like the idea of 2x plasma, and say a Power Fist on the champion (for punching the stray tank or dreadnought).

[BatMarine]

If you use MoS I'd say if you want to run at your opponent, double melta or flamer, you can give the icon if you want so that 10 men in a Rhino is enough, that's up to you. Some people hate Icons, but I see it as a 30 point apothecary upgrade.

If you're sitting back field I'd run double plasma, or plasma/(insert tank killing weapon here) and then the Icon is basically required so you can handle everything just fine and hold your objective come hell or highwater.

In both cases initiative 5 makes power swords are your best good friend, though on the back field one you could run a power maul to get that +2s if you're actually worried about Dreads/MCs.

[Eberk]

Thus MoS with a power sword... To bad that shiny new Aspiring Champion model and none of the Chosen models from DV have a power sword :( (I was thinking of using the chosen as unit champions)

[BatMarine]

So... Do. Just do a weapon swap, that should be easy enough depending on which model you choose.

[mysterex]

Some of my models I drill out the shoulder and torso, insert rare earth magnets and the make arm swaps depending on how I want to play the model at the time. Usually makes sense only for troops that have the optional weapon upgrades like characters or special weapons.

I've done this with everything from terminators to a scout sergeant. I find that swapping in a magnetised replacement arm holds better than trying to do something fiddly with just the wrist.

[Collin O'Brien]

Thus MoS with a power sword... To bad that shiny new Aspiring Champion model and none of the Chosen models from DV have a power sword :( (I was thinking of using the chosen as unit champions)

The chosen work well as unit champions, have been using them that way until recently, when I converted some champions using the Dark Angels accessories. If you're looking to make a champion with a power sword out of DV, you might want to look into using the chosen model with the power axe, as its weapon arm comes entirely separate and can easily be replaced with something else.

[Eberk]

I'm thinking about 2 sorts of squads at the moment.

1) A 10 strong close combat squad where the boltguns are replaced by a close combat weapon + flamers and/or meltaguns. Aspiring Champion obviously kitted out for close combat (power weapon). This squad will ride to war in a Rhino.

2) A 15 or 20 strong shooting squad (they keep their bolters) + Plasma guns and/or a 'heavy weapon' like an autocannon. The Aspiring Champion will get only a combi-bolter. Perhaps an Icon will be added to this squad.

I think these 2 types of squads will give me enough tactical flexibility.

What do you guys think ?

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Just look for the things that CSM can do that SM can't:

*20 man squads.
*2 Special Weapons, rather than 1 Special + 1 Heavy.
*Close Combat Weapons.
*Veterans of the Long War.
*Marks.
*Specialist challenge characters.

Put that stuff into a unit and it looks decent to me.

[Eberk]

*20 man squads.
Pretty expensive in a 1500pt army

*2 Special Weapons, rather than 1 Special + 1 Heavy.
When their job is to just stand and fire I'd rather have an autocannon then a second plasma gun (but I will try both configurations out and see what works best)

*Close Combat Weapons.
Additional close combat weapons are very pricy for large units, no ? I'd rather specialize my troops.

*Veterans of the Long War.
*Marks.
These are off course included - it will be a warband from the original Emperor's Children Legion

*Specialist challenge characters.
indeed, I almost forgot about that rule, damn, now I certainly need characters with power swords instead of power axes.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

20 Marines.
Replace Bolter > CCW.
2 Flamers.
Power Sword, Melta Bombs and Gift of Mutation Champion.

Roll with Huron and Fabius. Take Cultists as other troops to flood your boardside. 300 Points for 20 Space Marines ain't bad.

[Eberk]

plus VotLW = +30pt and MoS = +60pt and substitute a flamer for a meltagun and you get close to 400pts for a single unit.

I think that's a lot if you also want to take some Noise Marines, Chosen, Predator, Havocs, Raptors, Sorceror,...

PS: I don't ever use named characters, I want to write/fight my own tale of glory ;)

[Diagnosis Ninja]

plus VotLW = +30pt and MoS = +60pt and substitute a flamer for a meltagun and you get close to 400pts for a single unit.

I think that's a lot if you also want to take some Noise Marines, Chosen, Predator, Havocs, Raptors, Sorceror,...

PS: I don't ever use named characters, I want to write/fight my own tale of glory ;)

Then don't take those things? They're the cheapest marines to boot. They're only as expensive as you make them. Huron and Fabius were only there for guaranteed Infiltrate, and +1S/Fearless.

At the end of the day though, I know how much I pay for 10 Dark Eldar Warriors in a Raider, and I'd much rather take CSM for the extra price. Worth it by my count.

[Eberk]

The all to common pitfall - "Load up your units with lots of options"

Back to the drawing board it is for my army list :)

[DarkLink]

You can get Fearless in the units, which is better than ATSKNF (though Chapter Tactics is on par). So long as you keep a tight focus on what upgrades you need and which ones you don't, CSM's flexibility will do you well. You can't equip them to do everything like you can Grey Hunters, they just get too expensive that way. But if you take one squad to hold your home objective, one squad to hold the midfield, one squad to take enemy objectives, etc, you can take exactly the upgrades you need and optimize your performance. There won't be one 'ideal' layout for basic CSM, because that ideal layout for each squad will be based on what your army specifically needs.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

The all to common pitfall - "Load up your units with lots of options"

Back to the drawing board it is for my army list :)

It's not necessarily too many options, just "what don't you need?"

Another ideal unit by my count:

10 Marines
2 Plasma guns
Champion: Sword and Melta bombs
+ CCW
Icon of Fearless

Rhino
Havoc
Daemonic Posession

Not sure how much it costs, but at the end of the day it's not like they need to be entirely efficient. They just need to be geared to a particular job.

[Eberk]

They cost 235pt plus 62pt for the Rhino (if you meant a Power sword for the Champion)


It's just that I like those Marks and VotLW rules fluff wise... while Havocs with a Mark of Slaanesh are brilliant fluff-wise it is not really usefull.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

Veterans of the Long War is interesting, but by my count you need to treat it as its own mark.

By my count, the vast majority of the book is really easy to make specialist units, but there's no way that you can make all of your units general purpose.

Troops CSM:
Khorne: Bolter > CCW + MoK + Icon. Huge infiltrating unit through Huron or the Warlord Perk.
Tzeentch: Don't really serve a purpose. Go for Thousand Sons instead.
Nurgle: Sit on an objective. Heavy Weapons + MoN. Huge unit.
Slaanesh: The only unit I'd make general. +CCW's, MoS, Icon.

You also have to remember that you have access to Cult Troops and Chosen, potentially. In most circumstances, it's better to go with those (and ignore VotLW seen as they're already Fearless) than to take regular marines and pile the upgrades on.