Heldrakes...

[Denzark]

I have had a good shufti at my new codex. Herewith my thoughts on Heldrakes.

Heldrake is one of 3 anti air chaos can have not including fortifications. So, what can a Heldrake do? Either shoot 4 S8 AP4 TL shots at BS3, or a torrent template at S6 AP3. the former would be good against light vehicles, the latter against heavy infantry ie MEQ. If the heldrake's anti air capability is the key here, I suggest you take the former.

The Heldrake also gets A vector Strike at S7 against fliers. D3+1 hits. Say at least 3 on average. At S7 against your storm raven only 1 will get through in a turn. Problem being I can't see how you can vector strike and shoot at a flier - you will have moved past it. So actually the shooting attack is key to anti air so you must stick with Hades autocannon.

Unless you hover a turn, during which any opponent worth his salt will pepper you with shots whilst you are a skimmer, you will probably only see 2 turns out of 5 - so must be pretty good to make your points back.

I can't help think that the sweet spot is 2 heldrakes for redundancy and to pick on enemy fliers properly - but that is a lot of points at 1500. So you nned to have a plan of use before you throw them down, you also must remember to optimise your flight paths.

I can't help but think they are better value for points as Anti Air than Flak havocs or flying DP now he costs a mint, but I'd be interested in other thoughts.

[Learn2Eel]

Most fliers aren't AV12, so the Vector Strike at S7 actually has a decent chance of doing some damage. If you average 3 hits, as you say, then you are probably looking at one pen and one glance or at least a pen against an AV11 flier, and probably a glance and a pen for an AV10 flier. Not great, but it is more efficient than anything a flying Daemon Prince could do (flying Daemon Princes have a S6 Vector Strike or random psychic powers, either way they become more expensive very quickly).

Just for reference, the Hades Autocannon on the Heldrake is not twin-linked - averaging two hits. IMO the best option for the Heldrake is the Baleflamer, making you a tremendous threat to MEQ. As you can shoot a separate target to the one you vector-striked, it makes you more flexible than if you had the Hades Autocannon. You will more reliably do damage to your opponent, even if it isn't necessarily against their fliers. In that sense, I think the Heldrake will be taken because it can threaten a wide range of targets, not for its decent AA abilities. A S7 vector strike is still better than what we had before. IMO Flakk Missile Havocs are the best bet for AA.
The Baleflamer, being a Torrent weapon, combined with the Heldrake being a Flyer, makes it very capable of making the Heldrake's points back in one turn. Because you can effectively position the template however you want, you can maximize and vaporize entire squads - especially if you use your daemonforge.

The Heldrake is also one of the most durable fliers in the game. 12/12/10, +5 invulnerable save, It Will Not Die, Daemonic Possession, etc. IMO if you are worried about fliers, take Havocs with Flakk Missiles. The Heldrake will be more of a light-vehicle harasser and MEQ squad-killer. It has an incredibly high chance to kill entire squads (depending on how they are positioned) and do damage to transports in each turn it is on the board. In that sense, you weigh up the 170 points against other options - does it fulfill a role you need filled? If your army specializes in anti-tank and your Chaos Marines are kitted as such, the Heldrake will be very useful because of how easily it melts MEQ squads to the ground.

In that sense, I wouldn't take it as an AA vehicle. I think of it, again, as a light-vehicle and MEQ counter. It is also very durable. I think it is worth it, but taking a pair might be overkill/too expensive. If you come up against a foot-slogging MEQ list though, you will have an evil smile plastered to your face. By the same token, it probably won't be as useful against mech-spam armies (which are decreasing in popularity), though a S6 flamer template can still do damage to transports - especially if there are lots of them.

[DarkLink]

Most fliers aren't AV12

Pretty much only Valkyrie/Vendettas and Storm Ravens, not counting Forgeworld.

There are more than enough viable targets for a flyer to use a flamer on, though. It doesn't come on until turn 2 at the earliest, so you just pop a Rhino or two and fly on and mop up the squads with the flamer. I've been playing a Dreadknight in virtually every 6th ed game with a Heavy Incinerator, and I have never lacked for a plethora of viable targets. A Heldrake with the flamer will be deadly.

The cannon, on the other hand, turns you into a very expensive rifleman dreadnought. People really don't take enough vehicles anymore to justify that, and Chaos has other, probably better, options for killing flyers, and you still get the vector strike which isn't too bad. So unless you expect to face a lot of flyers, stick to the flamer.

[Learn2Eel]

Pretty much only Valkyrie/Vendettas and Storm Ravens, not counting Forgeworld.

There are more than enough viable targets for a flyer to use a flamer on, though. It doesn't come on until turn 2 at the earliest, so you just pop a Rhino or two and fly on and mop up the squads with the flamer. I've been playing a Dreadknight in virtually every 6th ed game with a Heavy Incinerator, and I have never lacked for a plethora of viable targets. A Heldrake with the flamer will be deadly.

The cannon, on the other hand, turns you into a very expensive rifleman dreadnought. People really don't take enough vehicles anymore to justify that, and Chaos has other, probably better, options for killing flyers, and you still get the vector strike which isn't too bad. So unless you expect to face a lot of flyers, stick to the flamer.

Agreed with everything here. Before I stopped playing them (for Chaos! haha), I was running a pair of Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators, and even though they were only AP4, the sheer amount of saves you cause on MEQ is crazy. That and you murder anything that doesn't have a +3 armour save/invulnerable save. In one game in particular, I went first and on that first turn my Dreadknights managed to wipe out a 12-man Fire Warrior squad and a 5-man Pathfinders squad. To say my opponent was shocked would be an understatement.
Then you imagine what that flamer would do, except it is AP3 and mounted on a flyer that isn't getting shot at whilst it moves up. Crazy good, and cheaper than the Dreadknight too (although obviously the Dreadknight is better in other ways).

[Denzark]

Interesting thoughts gentlemen, thank you. Good spot on the TL Hades, don't know where I got that from. Hmm. My thoughts on this are still mixed. An unchecked Flier is doom on non-6th ed armies, particularly if the only anti air they have is on fortifications. The storm raven with a lot of weapons and transport, the vendetta with lascannon hell and nasty necron tesla rubbish. I think you need to kill them in one turn. If you went with havocs, I thnk even in the back field, they would become a priority target and neutralised quite quickly. f they didn't, they become that wasted anti-vehicle thing you mentioned above - once you have killed the flier at S7. I don't think them to be more efficient - I think you need to mathammer what will do 3 x HP in one turn better.

The DP is now too expensive - although (from the hip - not looking in the rules) I would probably try to roll 2d6 for his vector strike pen as a monstrous creature.

I think you also need to plan against AV12 as worst case scenario. So hades (remembering not TL) = 2 hits, 1glance/penetrate. Not good. Vector Strike say 3 hits (2 on d3) and 1glance/penetrate. But then as mentioned, I suppose you need to take into account the fact that you will be zooming as well for VS.

So maybe the best thing is to treat the Heldrake as ground attack rather than an air interceptor. Make the enemy use their air in trying to chase you down whilst you streak amongst the back field buring MEQ to the ground.

Not sure you will get the points worth with 2 so may have to playtest. I aim at 1500 as this is for my GW Throne of Skulls tourney.

[Learn2Eel]

What I meant when I said the S7 Vector Strike was more efficient was in comparison to a Daemon Prince, or even Obliterators, for example. Havocs with Flakk missile will do the job better though.
Vector Strikes don't get the benefits of Smash, I would say fortunately. It would make Flying Monstrous Creatures far too good at taking down aircraft. Vector Strikes are separate.

I don't think the Hades Autocannon is worth it on the Heldrake. As you say, you average the same damage with the vector strike, and the baleflamer actually allows you to both provide a serious threat to infantry and do damage to two entirely different targets more reliably. I agree with you - the best use of the Heldrake isn't as a flier hunter, but more as a versatile squad-eating harasser.
At 1500, running two might be a bit of a stretch. I think it depends on what you expect to run into, as well as the rest of your army. If you have more than enough anti-tank (i.e. Havocs, Obliterators, Chaos Marines with melta/plasma, Chosen with melta/plasma, etc) then the Heldrakes may be a good investment. If you expect to come up against mech-heavy lists, then their worth may be reduced. One will always be good, as that hard-to-destroy vehicle (even for AA capable units in comparison to most fliers) that can harass light vehicles and kill footsloggers with ease.

[Denzark]

OK having read smash and vector strike, acknowledge DP is hitting at base strength. So now back to the question, what is the best CSM anti-flyer - or do you just ignore them? May be back to fortifications + quad gun...

[Learn2Eel]

OK having read smash and vector strike, acknowledge DP is hitting at base strength. So now back to the question, what is the best CSM anti-flyer - or do you just ignore them? May be back to fortifications + quad gun...

Hmm it's a difficult question. Your looking at 3 hits a lot from the Heldrake and Havocs, both with S7, though the Heldrake is cheaper in that case and doesn't have to worry about rolling to hit. I don't think any other unit does it well enough.
I think the Aegis Defence Line with a quad gun is the best bet, especially as you can hit fliers on the turn they come in. It is also the cheapest option and works well with other elements of your army, but you can't take multiples except at 2000+.

IMO it comes down to your meta. At best I'll see one flier in a game in my LGS usually, but I assume they are more common elsewhere typically. In that case, a single Heldrake with a bale flamer and a quad gun is probably the best bet IMO.

[DarkLink]

You take a quad gun, you get your vector strikes, maybe a squad of havocs with flakk, etc. No single thing that slaughters flyers, but you have stuff that can hurt them scattered across your army. Most people don't take that many flyers, so as long as you have multiple tools that can hurt one or two flyers you're set.