New codex is in. What do you think of it? [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Daemonette666

10-06-2012, 03:36 AM

I personally think some of the units have had their abilities reduced. Some have had them enhanced. Others have had their prices reduced to a manageable level. Some units are just silly, and I see no reason why they introduced them. as we already have the defiler and dreadnought/hellbrute.

Some of the new rule and upgrades are good, but you have to pay for them.

I personally would have liked them to allow you to theme your army to represent a post heresy Legion. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, do not get any form of representation with these rules. Iron warriors and Word Bearers get HQs, but they do not allow for night vision skill (night lords), or tank hunter skill (iron warriors). I can still theme an army - sort of with noise marines, thousand sons, plague marines or berserkers, but these mean other armies will generally look the same. The only way to make a unit into a classic - we have been fighting the long fight is to give them veterans of the long war upgrade.

I love obliterators now, but would have loved for them to have a max of 5 models in the unit. The same with mutilators.

I would love to have been able to design a night lords army with extra raptors (which should be allowed to count as scoring), then have all models with night vision, and chosen, get outflank/infiltrate.

An alpha legion character would have allowed for all CSMs and chosen to get infiltrate and shroud, and allow certain troops to outflank.

Well the codex is out now, and we can not change it, so what can you do now if you want to theme your army and make it work as close to your chosen legions historical abilities and tactics?

I am pretty much set as I have an Emperor's Children army, but my Night Lords army is going to be just another CSM army with no marks of chaos at all.

I suppose I will have to re-design all my lists I have typed up, while I am waiting for Army Builder to bring out a new update for the CSM codex.

I will have to have a full read of the codex before I make my mind up, but all in all, they have not completely screwed it it, but it is not want I and a lot of older chaos players would have wanted. Rather than add in a lot of weird new war machines, I wanted a new hover/flying transport, some equipment and unit price decreases, and some of the units maximum unit size increased not decreased. At 15 points possessed is still not worth it.

I suppose many will like somethings, and hate other things. The codex is better than the last one, but it could have been way better without being too over powered. Now it just has somethings nerfed, others improved, but at cost, and somethings just so over powered that I will probably not use them. Especially when they cost so much for the new models in Australia.

I do not have a utter hatred for Phil Kelly for what he has done with this codex like I did with Gav and Alessio for what they did with the last one. I know many still hate Matt Ward for his Grey Knights codex or some of the Fluff it introduced. I have not yet have had a chance to decide how I feel about this codex.

Most things are evened out for their price, and to make them super over powered, you have to pay a lot more points in upgrades. Thankfully standard weapons are now a bit cheaper. I would have like to see flamers and missile launchers as free upgrades for standard CSM squads, but that is just my opinion.

I still can not believe I had to pay $83.00 for the codex though.

Mr Mystery

10-06-2012, 03:41 AM

Having managed to **** up the destination for my order, likely won't get mine until Monday.

I'm sure I said store instead of home, but seems not!

As for legion specific stuff, house rule it.

Daemonette666

10-06-2012, 04:10 AM

I suppose so. Many of my opponents would have to check the rules being used, but if they are not over powered, and in some cases, I pay the appropriate points for them, I am sure they would not disagree with my using a few house rules for certain chaos armies.

I checked Typhus looking for the Plague Zombie rule, because I remember someone asking on a thread on one website I am on. Probably not this one. Human stats with a 6+ save, no weapon upgrades, fearless, FNP and Slow and Purposeful for about 4 points per model. They could certainly absorb a lot of damage before they finally went down, but too many plasma cannons and they are gone very quickly. They would make the army very interesting. Although they do not get it, imagine if they also got without number. It would be very amusing and frustrating to your opponent.

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

10-06-2012, 04:13 AM

I find it very amusing. :p

I like how I have so much in 1000 points!

Warpsmith, Mark of Tzeentch, Aura of Dark Glory

20 Cultists
2 Heavy Stubbers
Autoguns
Shotgun

30 Cultists
2 Flamers

Helldrake

2 Maulerfiends

8 Havocs
2 Missile Launchers
2 Autocannons

Daemonette666

10-06-2012, 05:50 AM

This was pointed out to me today by an ex GW staff member at my local store. On page 41 Chaos Spawn under the heading Random Attacks:

at the beginning of each fight sub-phase roll a D6 for each friendly chaos spawn unit locked in combat. The result is the number of attacks, (before modifiers) that all chaos spawn in that unit have this turn.

In a normal FOC that is 3 units. In a double FOC size game 6 or even more for apoc. With this in mind and using just 3 units you could do this.

I charge 3 units of chaos spawn 5 strong, along with another unit to absorb the overwatch shooting. Each chaos spawn now rolls 3 D6 each, because there are 3 friendly chaos spawn locked in combat. Each model in the unit had 3D6 attacks. so you could get anywhere from 60 attack if each unit rolled tripple 1s, or up to 285 attacks if each unit rolled tripple 6s (6 x 3 + charge bonus x 5 models x 3 units). That is from just 15 models worth 30 points each.

I know they are very fragile, and will die fairly quickly if you face elite enemy with lots of high strength weapons. But just think of how your opponent will cringe when you roll 95 dice for each unit of spawn.

RAW vs RAI I do not know what GW intended with this one, but I intend to run them like this unless it gets FAQd

Houghten

10-06-2012, 05:58 AM

The Madman

10-06-2012, 06:37 AM

How did you get that wrong? it says "roll a D6 for each friendly chaos spawn unit that is locked in combat." that means the Squad not each individual spawn model.

Example:
a unit of three Chaos spawn are in combat in the fight sub-phase, the roll of the single dice for the unit is 5. the three spawn get 5 attacks each (numbering 15).

if it was a D6 for each chaos spawn it would be written as "roll a D6 for each friendly chaos spawn in a unit that is locked in combat."

so the max attacks (before modifiers) a Unit of 5 spawn is 30 (40 if charging from Rage's 2+ attacks on charge).

if the rules went how you interpreted them then spawn and possessed would get multiple rolls on their tables.

Kirsten

10-06-2012, 07:14 AM

lots of good stuff in there, but once again if you want an undivided army you are severly limited in the fun stuff available.

Daemonette666

10-06-2012, 10:37 AM

Wow, it didn't take long at all for ridiculous interpretations of rules to start creeping out of the woodwork, did it?

In a word: no. In a few more words: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, noooo.

Each unit has d6 attacks per model. It doesn't say anywhere that you use the total result.

O.k. I am not going to use that rule interpretation, but you can see my point. and just threatening to use the rule that way made people react badly to it.

Oh and madman, the rule interpretations was not for each chaos spawn attacking in the fight sub-phase, it was for each friendly chaos spawn unit locked in combat in the fight sub-phase. If read with the inflection in a certain way you could think it meant that you worked out how many friendly chaos spawn units were locked in combat then this is the number of D6 a unit rolls to determine each spawns number of attacks in that unit , before modifiers like assault bonus are applied. multiply this by the number of models in the unit. The interpretation then implies that each unit would roll X D6 (where X is the number of friendly spawn units locked in combat. It is also worded very badly so you could interpret it as being a friendly unit locked in combat in the other side of the table as well.

You see my point. I was trying to show how well GW has proof read the rules, and had neutral test gamers check the rules and try to get the best interpretation out of them to bend the rule. This way they could make sure rules were unable to be interpreted or confused like this.

Each spawn unit would roll on their tables before each fight sub-phase to determine what type of mutation they were getting and roll only once as these are used to determine their mutation for the round, not their random attacks. So I think you misinterpreted what I said there. I did forget that rage gave +2 attacks on the charge though.

My example would then be you roll - X D6 (X = no of spawn units = 3) add in the charge bonus +2, then multiply this by the number of spawn in the unit. So a unit of 5 spawn could have up to 100 attacks (20 each on the charge) using this example of the misinterpreted rule. I know it is a silly interpretation, and I mentioned it to show a point. GW will probably FAQ it.

DarkLink

10-06-2012, 12:02 PM

Reading comprehension, people. There's a reason they teach it in school.

Edit:
Anyways, here's why he's wrong.

at the beginning of each fight sub-phase roll a D6 for each friendly chaos spawn unit locked in combat.

So you roll one dice for each spawn unit, simple. This could go either way.

The result is the number of attacks, (before modifiers) that all chaos spawn in that unit have this turn.

However, here you see that, after rolling a dice for that unit, the spawn in that unit get the d6 attacks. The second sentance specifically links each d6 to a particular unit, and limits the results to that unit alone.

mysterex

10-06-2012, 01:09 PM

I personally would have liked them to allow you to theme your army to represent a post heresy Legion. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, do not get any form of representation with these rules. Iron warriors and Word Bearers get HQs, but they do not allow for night vision skill (night lords), or tank hunter skill (iron warriors). I can still theme an army - sort of with noise marines, thousand sons, plague marines or berserkers, but these mean other armies will generally look the same.

Agree

I would love to have been able to design a night lords army with extra raptors (which should be allowed to count as scoring), then have all models with night vision, and chosen, get outflank/infiltrate.

An alpha legion character would have allowed for all CSMs and chosen to get infiltrate and shroud, and allow certain troops to outflank.

Agree

I still can not believe I had to pay $83.00 for the codex though.
But weirdly the price for the Helldrake in Aus & NZ is close to UK & US prices at normal conversion despite everything else being at plus 60+%. I wonder if they're using it to test the waters around their pricing.

I don't think there is much in the way of anything that can easily deal with lots of flyers (AirCron). A basic 5 man Havoc squad with 4 flak missiles is 175 points while the Helldrake is 170 so you can't afford to take lots and what you do take will become fire magnets. I'm thinking autocannon Havocs may be better because they're a lot cheaper points wise or better still allied Ork lootas. I think that there's a bit of a problem when you instantly start looking at allies to fill holes in a newly released codex (especially the first for a new edition).

Overall I'm feeling underwhelmed by the new codex. Unlike other releases it doesn't give me much inspiration to start playing my CSM again. Maybe it's because I've been waiting for a replacement to the last one for so many years that nothing could live up to my hopes.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad codex, just vaguely uninspiring.

Kirsten

10-06-2012, 01:28 PM

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad codex, just vaguely uninspiring.

I agree to be honest, I like the codex, it is pretty solid, but I play Iron Warriors, so they are undivided, so there is very little flavour. The fourth edition codex was fine tactically, just pretty boring, this book has added quite a few new exciting, flavourful things, but they are pretty much all god specific, so no use to undivided players. The warpsmith is cool, but only two wounds

Wildcard

10-06-2012, 01:58 PM

Wow, already fighting over the cheesy cake! AWSUM!

Anyway, the thing i personally like the totally, truly and most deeply the best is the Chaos Artefact table where you can choose those unique weapons..

The war has been raging for over ten millenia, its about time some of the notable relics were introduced for the wider audience. I know there are some named weapons on multiple codexes already, but to be able to take one for your own custom hero is priceless..

I would give so much to get that to my GK codex (And to get unique Daemon Hunter / Grey Knight Artefacts for Mordrak, Stern, Thawn..)

Ps. And I am not now talking about the specific stats or roles of the artefacts, but more of the concept.

Other than that, nicely crafted codex with really really much variating possibilities, although there are some units that i just cant see to be used, or see any reason for their use.. (Maulers and Warptalons for example)

Deadlift

10-06-2012, 02:44 PM

Not really digested the real meat and bones of the codex yet, but I am loving the art work. Some of the new art showing the chaos marines in action are fantastic. The cover work is great.

daboarder

10-06-2012, 03:44 PM

Not really digested the real meat and bones of the codex yet, but I am loving the art work. Some of the new art showing the chaos marines in action are fantastic. The cover work is great.

I agree on th presentation of the codex itsel it is fantastic.

Rules wise however this codex doesn't really stand up to inspection and here's a few of the reasons why.

Firstly the rule that turns you into a prince or a spawn will mostly just kill you. In combat (where you are when you roll for boon) you will not often have room to place a prince within the three inches required. This specifically kills him.

There is a single daemon weapon in the codex, 2 if you play a khorne lord. In. Chaos codex that's kind of disgusting. Especially as it is AP4 (not bad though)

A lot of options did get cheaper but lost rules to do it and the price to ge that utility back (or as comparable as you can) has in almost all cases increased.

The internal balance is completely skewed. It shouldn't take a terminator champion 3 times the points to get a pair of lighting claws (single claw is se price) as it does a terminator, all he is getting in that instance is +1 attack.

Ultimately I think the whole codex is best summed up with the word almost.

Ps: conspiracy theory time, if rumours of a design member being fired are true, I would say I feel that thus codex probably started under cruddace and Phil was only brought in to finish it. It has a lot of the hallmarks for a cruddace codex baring a heavy 20

Iyandagar

10-06-2012, 03:55 PM

S'alright. I reckon there will be some interesting battles ahead. Abs seems to have taken a bit of a punch to the gut, with the removal of stacking the effects of both weapons but on the whole, I quite like all the shiny new stuff... Was a nice big box this morning.

Archon

10-06-2012, 05:14 PM

I mostly agree with the toughts about the csm-codex of the australian Demonette.

Most new units have no real impact. No - hey thats cool - feeling. The CSM powerlevel is still under wolves and bloodies, not to mention the GK. In case of the mutilators utterly usesless and ugly beyond comprehension.

The only units wich get actually cheaper than before are bikes and havocs (and raptors a bit). All others are only cheaper, for a price, i.E. lower MW, lesser attacks etc. CSM are 1 point more than before, but gets hate (SM).

The Boon-Table is nice. Gift of Mutation has allows no spawn and dp results so its a win - if you are lucky - or 10 pts. wasted, if you roll a one or some crap like witch-eater.

The codex is nice to look at, but its more a upgrade than a new codex. Its better as the old one, but hey, thats not to difficult to manage, eh?

Legion-Specifics are half hearted. For my IW it is okay, the get the techi and and a demonic shootingbeast but for EC the better sonics-weaponary is a backstep, cause the blastmaster is only 1 per ten men. In an average army you can have only 3 and then they are no attack-squads left. If you want it sylish, you have to buy 12 men squads. And sonics on other choices than noise-marines ... no ... not even the mark of slaanehs gets you access to sonics - that so meh.

No - I´m not excited about the new codex. Its better than the old one (i mentioned that before, yes) but the old one was crap from the beginning.

I think we are the victims of a new codex-style (again, hello DA) or gw has simply no love for chaos (legions).

And hey, look: Not a single one unit, that has the infltrate special rule!

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 07:09 PM

I agree to be honest, I like the codex, it is pretty solid, but I play Iron Warriors, so they are undivided, so there is very little flavour. The fourth edition codex was fine tactically, just pretty boring, this book has added quite a few new exciting, flavourful things, but they are pretty much all god specific, so no use to undivided players. The warpsmith is cool, but only two wounds

Iron Warriors also got the Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and and Mutilators to play around with. I don't know about flavour, but Undivided has a whole heap more options.

Someone over on Faeit played three games with a Daemon Prince of Nurgle which had wings, power armour and the black mace, and the Daemon Prince managed to kill both Draigo and a Dreadknight in a single game before they ever got to attack. Pretty funny. Although, then again, because of Psyk-Out grenades technically the Daemon Prince should have struck last against Draigo. But eh. Daemon Princes aren't as good as they were, but they can be a lot more killy (at a cost). In that sense, they are much better for bigger games. In reality though, they needed a nerf so that people would take Chaos Lords and Sorcerer Lords in competitive play. That Daemon Prince build comes out to be 265 points and a single S10 hit can end its day, but it hits like a tonne of bricks. When flying, it is hard to hit and if it Jinks it gets a +3 cover save. The Black Mace has Fleshbane and, because it has Smash, all of its attacks are AP2.

I've had it for about two days now (Aussies get it early) and I am more impressed than I was when I was reading it online. I think I agree with Naftka and a lot of others, there's no real point and click take me army list. There are good combinations, but they aren't very obvious; i.e. I only just worked out how I think I will make a competitive Thousand Sons army with the new book. It took a while, but even without a pair of flying daemon princes like I used to run, it will definitely be more competitive.

Also, having a look at the Defiler, I can understand why its price was jacked up. Compared to when the previous codex came out, the Defiler now has 4 HP, a 5+ invulnerable save, Daemonforge, It Will Not Die, 4 attacks base (3 and then +1 for two power fists) and S8 base. 195 makes me feel a bit iffy.....but I don't think taking it is the massive handicap people are making it out to be.
Getting a 3+ invulnerable save on a lord for 40 points is rad, it might not be as cheap as taking a Storm Shield for Loyalists but when you consider our lords are significantly cheaper base it evens out.

I'm not really disappointed with many things at all, though a few problems I've noticed aside from the ones I've already talked about; Warp Talons may seem like a bargain versus Raptors due to have paired lightning claws and a +5 invulnerable save for only 13 points more per model, but in reality, they are very much a risky unit that you really have to weigh up their usefulness. They can't shoot at all, and they are only useful against Infantry - infantry which, unless they are blinded, have a nifty chance of rapid-firing them to death. However, Warp Talons will work well against low Initiative armies - if you can reliably get a good deep strike, that is. Mutilators are 15 points less than an Obliterator, have no ranged weapons and cannot embark in a transport (except for a Land Raider). I'm sure there is some use for them, but frankly, they just seem to be far outweighed by their shooty equivalent - though they do take up different FoC slots of course.

Also, why did the Land Raider go up in points? It is only 5 points, but still.....I'm guessing it is because vehicle upgrades (i.e. daemonic possession) are cheaper. As much as I am leaning towards Havocs now, my daemonically possessed Vindicators will still see some use.

The Maulerfiend and Forgefiend are both going to find a use in differing competitive lists, as will the Heldrake methinks. However, they aren't must-include units like other new units in re-done codices (i.e. Necron Barges, Psyflemen Dreadnoughts) and are actually balanced against the other choices. And this is what I like the most about the codex rules-wise. Put two players side-by-side, reading the same codex, and one will for example take Raptors as their main fast attack option whilst the other takes Bikers. One will opt for basic bolter Chaos Marines whilst the other will take Nurgle marines. One will select Havocs with missile launchers and the other takes Obliterators.

I'm digging the codex, at first glance it seems to be below the power level of the OP codices - namely Necrons, Grey Knights and the like - but on par, if not slightly better, than the majority of which are balanced against each other. It isn't a weak codex by any stretch of the imagination, and the majority of options are pretty balanced against each other, hence why nothing is a "must-include" option IMO.

White Tiger88

10-06-2012, 07:18 PM

Iron Warriors also got the Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and and Mutilators to play around with. I don't know about flavour, but Undivided has a whole heap more options.

Ya i think they should of called this Edition Codex: Iron Warriors...... Last book was Codex:Black Legion.... What the hell happend to Chaos Marines????

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 07:35 PM

Ya i think they should of called this Edition Codex: Iron Warriors...... Last book was Codex:Black Legion.... What the hell happend to Chaos Marines????

They've added new options for most of the Legions, so IMO its not all that bad. You can mark a lot more units, and you can take icons to make pseudo cult units. Night Lords get Warp Talons, and Raptors are a lot cheaper too. Most cult units also got a buff and either a marginal points increase or a points decrease. Word Bearers get the Dark Apostle and Cultists, etc. The Alpha Legion is the only one that isn't really represented, but I guess you can do Cultist armies.

It isn't 3.5 but I think making a codex like that again really isn't their priority. A codex that massive with that many options led to some crazy internal imbalances. This codex might not be as fun but.....well you won't have opposition players complaining all the time lol.

White Tiger88

10-06-2012, 07:40 PM

Ya but in all honesty this book makes Iron Warriors seem like the legion of choice...Demon Engine spam, Cheap normal troops.......Smells like Iron to me :)

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 07:47 PM

I'll be honest, my army lists so far are basic bolter marine squads with a meltagun and plasmagun in a Rhino. On top of that, for heavy support, I combine four missile-launcher Havoc squads with a unit of Obliterators.
In that sense though, in the previous codex, our best slot back then was heavy support - in this codex, it appears to be the same. Heavy Support is very much the hardest part of an army list to write in terms of weighing up the best options - Havocs, Obliterators, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends and Vindicators are all good choices right off the bat. Predators are ok, but mostly are tailored to one specific role. Defilers are still decent, and Land Raiders are Land Raiders - whether you find them useful is really dependent on the player and their meta.

For monetary reasons, I've told myself I won't use either of the Fiends, even though I really want to. I already have five heavy support options that are still applicable here, and I am soon going to be purchasing three more! Argh.

White Tiger88

10-06-2012, 07:53 PM

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 07:56 PM

Hahaha I forgot I will also be running a pair of Heldrakes :) However, I also see Heldrakes as a Tzeentchy kind of model (the look and design are very much similar to some old Tzeentch Epic models) what with the flamer.
That's another thing. Heldrakes are pretty nasty, especially with the Baleflamer, but Chaos Bikers and Raptors are also very viable too.

Abaddon, funnily enough, may end up being like Draigo in the sense that you take him not so much for his combat ability but for what he does to your army, specifically special weapon team Chosen squads. I never saw a point in taking him before - a close combat monster that costs more than a Land Raider and can only move 6" a turn unless inside said Land Raider. No thanks.
Now though? The competitive player in me sees Chosen Plasma spam armies popping up a lot.

Also, has anyone noticed that killing a character for the Chaos Boons table is not restricted to challenges? Read the entry - Precision Shots are a bit more important now. If you are someone like Lucius and have a Doom Siren, or you are a Lord with the Burning Brand, you can feasibly kill a squad sergeant from shooting and get a Chaos Boon roll.

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 08:28 PM

I've been reading online about people's thoughts on the codex and what they think works and doesn't work.
Now, most of us have the first impression that the Mark of Tzeentch is not very useful on units that don't already have an invulnerable save - a +6 invulnerable save for 2 points a model?
Then I noticed someone talk about putting a Havocs squad with the Mark of Tzeentch on a Skyshield Landing Pad. Ouch. 75 points to give your Havocs a +3 invulnerable save and the height to ignore all LoS blockers really. Even Tzeentch Obliterators would like this.

I've never thought of using Fortifications for Chaos Marines before, but methinks Iron Warriors armies (again) or simple dakka armies are going to make great use of them.

DarkLink

10-06-2012, 09:39 PM

Now though? The competitive player in me sees Chosen Plasma spam armies popping up a lot.

Chosen aren't quite Paladins or Purifiers, though. They're certainly not bad, but a squad of Chosen can't tank an entire enemy army for a whole game while slaughtering everything it touches, and as good as Plasma spam is it's not as flexible as Purifiers with Cleansing Flame, Fearless, Halberds, a Warding Stave, and Psycannons.

You'll see him more, certainly, and you'll take some Chosen with him because they can fill a particular role well, but I doubt it will become a spam army.

Learn2Eel

10-06-2012, 11:02 PM

Chosen aren't quite Paladins or Purifiers, though. They're certainly not bad, but a squad of Chosen can't tank an entire enemy army for a whole game while slaughtering everything it touches, and as good as Plasma spam is it's not as flexible as Purifiers with Cleansing Flame, Fearless, Halberds, a Warding Stave, and Psycannons.

You'll see him more, certainly, and you'll take some Chosen with him because they can fill a particular role well, but I doubt it will become a spam army.

That is what I like though, the Chosen Spam list doesn't seem anywhere near as cheesy as Purifier/Paladin spam. The Chosen spam list has enough internal weaknesses to not be considered a WAAC list. Whilst it is competitive, it isn't stupidly good like Grey Knight spam lists. That seems to be the immediate theme I can see with this codex, spam armies won't be as prevalent as mixed armies.
Also, unlike Purifier spam, you can actually say a Chosen-spam army is fluffy :)

Edit: The codex has been released in the UK/US I believe, and yet they still haven't updated the current FAQ for the old codex. I understand that they wouldn't have an FAQ ready for a new release, but surely they can get rid of the one sitting there so people don't get confused?

DarkLink

10-07-2012, 12:51 AM

I'm not sure if you can call Driagowing spam, actually;P.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 01:07 AM

Haha yeah I guess, good point.

Had another look at the codex, particularly Chaos Spawn - a unit people are saying is actually viable now. When I first looked at their entry, I thought meh and moved on, but now that I look at it.....
They will make for some decent, cheap distraction units.
Our Fast Attack in general (I keep saying it lol) is so much better now. I never saw anyone use Fast Attack with the old codex, now I think people will struggle not to include at least two units from it. I think Heavy Support still houses our best units, but with Fast Attack you are looking at three-four very viable options.

Edit: Unrelated, but just realized Psyk-Out Grenades only apply if Grey Knights launch an assault. Now I see how that Daemon Prince I mentioned earlier managed to kill Draigo without a scratch.
That will actually be funny - wiping out entire Grey Knight units before they even get to attack.

the cho-jin

10-07-2012, 02:11 AM

just because you run an Iron Warrior army (or any undivided force) doesn't mean you cant take cult troops - i regularly use KtBetrayer as my HQ with a unit of Iron warrior berserkers (i converted both) to represent Kroeger from the book 'storm of iron'

I like a lot of the changes - especially the Dirge caster - +5pts and stops all enemy units within 6'' of your vehicle overwatching *awesome - i'll park my land raider in your deployment zone and charge with impunity

Hell brute is still a bit meh. may as well get a chaos contemptor, mark of zeench with Hbolters and a flamer and bang it in a dread claw (easily converted from a drop pod). Armour 13 means most units wont even be able to charge it without melta bomb sarge and ap3 guns make it a nightmare if you're a git like me and drop it behind enemy lines just for kicks

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 02:43 AM

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

10-07-2012, 02:44 AM

Kharn gets 7 attacks on the charge. 'nuff said.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 03:30 AM

Your missing "at S7 I5 AP2 with Hatred (Everything)".

Daemonette666

10-07-2012, 03:44 AM

But weirdly the price for the Helldrake in Aus & NZ is close to UK & US prices at normal conversion despite everything else being at plus 60+%. I wonder if they're using it to test the waters around their pricing.

Helldrake US $74.00 Australia $81.00, Mauler fiend US $66.00 Australia $90.00. Conversion rate US $1.00 = 98 cents Australian. 1 English pound = 1.53 Aussie dollars. UK price helldrake 45 pounds. So no we are still paying a lot more.

I could with the rules in the new codex build a decent Emperor's Children army for about the same price as in the old codex, with better options, upgrades, and benefits.

HQ
Chaos Lord Mark of Slaanesh, Sigil of Coruption (4+ invul better than old codex), Gift of mutation (not available in old codex), Plasma Pistol, Black Mace (daemon weapon, more expensive and does not cause instant death, but still very potent), Veteran of the long war. 180 points.

Troops
Noise marine squad with 20 in unit. Champion - doom siren, plasma pistol, power weapon, Melta Bombs. Unit has 2 Blast Masters, 13 Sonic Blasters, veterans of the long war and close combat weapon upgrades, Icon of Excess. 649 points Unit now has extra heavy weapon, FNP, Hatred space marines.

2 units of 10 noise marines similar to above unit but 10 less models and only 1 blast master. 399 points each unit. Still has FNP and HAtred Space Marines

Havoc unit -10 models Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 4 missile launchers with flakk missile upgrade, close combat weapon, veterans of the long war, champ gets power fist. 345 points - unit have +1 init, FNP and skyfire missiles, and hatred space marines.

Defiler with Twin Linked Las cannon, Power Scourge, Dirge Caster - 245 points. more expensive than before, but I now get 5+ invul, enemy can not overwatch shoot, I have an extra nasty close combat weapon, heal hull points.

Aegis Defence line with Quad cannon 100 points.

I can add a Hell drake here or just add my favourite non troop unit from the old codex - raptors.

Alternately a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh. Unfortunately Lash is gone, so may have to employ Daemon allies with the masque, Daemonettes and Seekers.

This still works, and I have a good army composition. I can still use normal Chaos marines with mark of Slaanesh and icon of Excess with unit upgrades to make them a flexible cheaper objective holding unit.

Cultists can also be used to make cheap fill out troops to hold objectives.

I think I can still make a decent army, I just have to be careful how I spend my points.

Daemonette666

10-07-2012, 03:48 AM

Contemptor Dreadnoughts are quite good, even though they are a little pricy in points.

They are good because when they get blown up or wrecked, replace the model with a counter, and roll each turn to see if it comes back with D3 Hull Points 6 = success, 1 = can not roll anymore, 2-5 = keep trying next turn. The different Chaos marks make them nastier i.e Nurgle give a re-roll on the roll to see if it comes back from the dead. They can have a heavy conversion beamer, and other nasty weapons.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 03:54 AM

Thanks, they do sound very good, especially with 4 Hull Points. I might have to seriously consider getting one and pairing it up with a Dreadclaw.

Kirsten

10-07-2012, 04:03 AM

Iron Warriors also got the Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and and Mutilators to play around with. I don't know about flavour, but Undivided has a whole heap more options.

Everyone gets those options, and the fiends are competing for an already highly competitive section. The heldrake is ok, not amazing in my opinion, and I still don't like the model. mutilators seem a bit pointless to me. It is a real shame the icons are god specific, that would have been a great way to give undivided players more options. Even just an undivided mark and a second undivided icon would have helped.

The defiler will be in every list I make I think, such a huge number of strength ten attacks and fleet is too good to pass on, plus the scourge will give you a great chance to hit most things on threes.

Daemonette666

10-07-2012, 04:26 AM

Kirsten is your avatar icon a tank? I could not tell because you know pink is a really good camouflage colour. Especially in urban terrain.

I spent 10 minutes looking for a picture I had seen years ago while back in the Regular Army of the parade dress uniform for the Royal Guard of one of the Asian countries. Pink Busbys - pink and white uniform.

Could not find a picture anywhere.

Kirsten

10-07-2012, 04:32 AM

it is tricky I know, but it is in fact a tank yes

Mr Mystery

10-07-2012, 04:38 AM

Ooh! Havocs can have 4 special weapons instead of Heavy. That's pretty cool!

Kirsten

10-07-2012, 04:49 AM

yeah they have had that for a while, my regular chaos opponent always runs a squad with two meltas and two plasma guns, always a real threat

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 06:13 AM

Ooh! Havocs can have 4 special weapons instead of Heavy. That's pretty cool!

A mate of mine new to Chaos Marines regularly runs two 5-man Havoc squads with 4 plasma guns in rhinos. They were dangerous, but very expensive.
Enter Chosen in the new rules when combined with Abaddon. I think the guy is going to blow a gasket.

the cho-jin

10-07-2012, 06:59 AM

i normally run a small 4plas havok team in a rhino as support to my main armor thrust - cant beat plas for killing terminators now since they became such a pain to shift in combat. Failing that obliterators: now with plas cannons, twin plasmas and assault cannons are awesome.

as to contemptor dreads, they're well worth the points now since you cant charge them if you cant hurt them. A13 on the front also means your opponent is gonna have to pull his force back or focus fire on it, leaving the res of you're army to advance into better positions. I always prepare to lose units (even expensive ones) in order to further the greater battle plan.

Tempted to build some iron warrior automota (maybe a dark mechanicus battle droid unit) to represent 1ksons and bang them in a dreadclaw too for added fun

Wildcard

10-07-2012, 09:30 AM

There are 2 major differences when talking about purifier & chosen:

1) Tax to make them troops: Even though Abaddon is more expensive than Crowe, he is still way better in multiple ways:
- Independent character: Can join squads and transport to get into the fight
- Has terminator armor, so can deepstrike (thus not necessarily need a transport to get into the fight)
- Wayvmore potent in close combat (although he should be since he is top dog of the chaos, and Crowe is just an errand boy..)
- Abaddon has better buffs for his army

2) Troops themselves:
- No matter what, chosen are more customisable to go for any role (from flamers to plasma or even melta - purifiers have no ap2 / ap1 shooting available to them)

Spectral Dragon

10-07-2012, 09:53 AM

I got a simple question: is there anything missing model-wise in this dex?

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

10-07-2012, 10:12 AM

Nope, nothing is missing.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 10:16 AM

There aren't kits for Cultists or Helbrutes but they have been represented in Dark Vengeance. Also, technically, the old Chaos Dreadnought (if they still sell it) works as a Helbrute too.

Mr Mystery

10-07-2012, 11:28 AM

I reckon we'll see a second wave comprised of Dark Vengeance goodies as regular kits.

Anggul

10-07-2012, 11:56 AM

DarkLink

10-07-2012, 01:03 PM

Edit: Unrelated, but just realized Psyk-Out Grenades only apply if Grey Knights launch an assault. Now I see how that Daemon Prince I mentioned earlier managed to kill Draigo without a scratch.

It was still lucky rolling, since Driago gets his 3+ invulnerable save, and hits back with lots of Str 10 and Preferred Enemy: Daemons (the prince was a psyker, right?). It should have been a lot more even.

Mr Mystery

10-07-2012, 01:09 PM

Background is good fun as well!

DarkLink

10-07-2012, 01:50 PM

2) Troops themselves:
- No matter what, chosen are more customisable to go for any role (from flamers to plasma or even melta - purifiers have no ap2 / ap1 shooting available to them)

But remember, Chosen can only fill that one single role well without getting absurdly expensive. And frankly making them dedicated assault troops is a little too expensive. Purifiers, on the other hand, can kill basically everything with their default loadout, even if they do lack lots of AP2, and they are still extremely good at killing other Marines and hordes in assault, just not Terminators. That's far more flexible than Chosen, and that's what makes them such an excellent candidate for spam. Since Chosen can't handle being jacks of all trades, they're much less likely to get spammed.

Archon

10-07-2012, 03:26 PM

Ooh! Havocs can have 4 special weapons instead of Heavy. That's pretty cool!

They could do that before - nothing new here:rolleyes:

In Case of Legions and fluff and the like - why the hell is it a MUST to upgrade the now painly expensive DP to a god-specific DP?! So Iron Warriors - for example - must take a deamon of "insert deity here" - how poor is that?

daboarder

10-07-2012, 03:38 PM

They could do that before - nothing new here:rolleyes:

In Case of Legions and fluff and the like - why the hell is it a MUST to upgrade the now painly expensive DP to a god-specific DP?! So Iron Warriors - for example - must take a deamon of "insert deity here" - how poor is that?

It's even worse wen you consider lords without a mark rolling dark apotheosis.

Spectral Dragon

10-07-2012, 05:06 PM

It's a good, strong, balanced codex and almost every unit is viable. There is enough customisation to create good variation but not so much that it gets out of hand.

Excellent job in my opinion.

Oh and also, with the addition of Cultists, Alpha Legion are just fine. When the fluff talks about them 'infiltrating' it means they're infiltrating the government, underground, and various other organisations. It doesn't literally mean there are space marines sneaking around everywhere nearly invisible.They do a fair bit of that as well though.

So, everything has a model, but I am guessing wargear options might not be represented on all of them? (PA lord comes to mind)

Now that I think about it, isn't this the first time this has happened upon a new codex?

The Madman

10-07-2012, 05:34 PM

There aren't kits for Cultists or Helbrutes but they have been represented in Dark Vengeance. Also, technically, the old Chaos Dreadnought (if they still sell it) works as a Helbrute too.

Just checked the site, Chaos Dreads are no longer available. RIP Chaos Dreadnought.

The Sovereign

10-07-2012, 05:51 PM

Nabterayl

10-07-2012, 06:00 PM

In Case of Legions and fluff and the like - why the hell is it a MUST to upgrade the now painly expensive DP to a god-specific DP?! So Iron Warriors - for example - must take a deamon of "insert deity here" - how poor is that?
Well ... who is investing his (or his and her) power into the marine to make him a daemon prince? Gotta be somebody, right?

DF3CT

10-07-2012, 07:46 PM

The only thing I don't like is that the Master of the Rubricae rule states Ahriman and sorcerers can only take Thousand Sons as troops in a primary detachment. I wanted them as allied troops. :(

On the other hand, I really like the Combat/Spell Familiar; opens up a world of conversion opportunities. :)

I have an old warhammer fantasy nurgle sorcerer. One with big pads...I cut his head off and put a space marine helmet between his shoulders so he has the appearance of a terminator.

I then stuck a smaller head to his chest. That's the spell familiar.

I had an extra ancient little demon with a pitchfork. He's the combat familiar.

Sadly most of the options in the CSM book you'd take in any list you make. There isn't enough variety and most CSM opponents will be sporting the same items with their customized warlords and sorcerers.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 07:53 PM

It was still lucky rolling, since Driago gets his 3+ invulnerable save, and hits back with lots of Str 10 and Preferred Enemy: Daemons (the prince was a psyker, right?). It should have been a lot more even.

He killed Draigo before he could attack back. And no, it wasn't a psyker. I'm thinking he rolled a 6 for the daemon weapon, with 3s to hit and re-rolls and 2s to wound the other guy probably just failed one or two saves more then he should have. As you say, it isn't something a Daemon Prince would regularly do, but against a lot of things in the game it will be brutal if you pay the points for it.

Learn2Eel

10-07-2012, 07:55 PM

Daemonette666

10-07-2012, 10:00 PM

After reading part 1 of a summary about the new Chaos Space Marine codex on the home screen, I realised the noise marines sonic blaster has been nerfed.

It is no longer assault 2/ heavy 3. It is salvo 2/3. What does this mean. The tactic favoured by many Slaanesh noise marine players where you shoot 2 shots and assault after sending in another unit to take the overwatch fire can not be done now.

Salvo weapons can move and shoot up to 1/2 the weapons max range using the first number (2), or stand and shoot and fire up to full weapon range with the second value (3). Either way they can not assault in the turn that they shoot with the salvo weapon (sonic blaster). In other words, they are almost like 4th edition rules for rapid fire weapons. You now can only shoot your pistols before you want to charge. Yes they are cheaper, but are now less tactically flexible than they were before.

The only time I personally would use the 1/2 max range 2 shots is if you were trying to get to a position, objective, or cover and had a target of opportunity to shoot at. That or when I decided, or was forced to disembark from a vehicle and then shoot. I would elect to stand still and shoot 3 shots any chance I could. No wonder the sonic blaster is 2 points cheaper.

Standard Chaos Marines with the mark of Slaanesh and icon of excess, a CCW, and veterans of the long war look more attractive than noise marines now. There goes my pure noise marine army.

DarkLink

10-07-2012, 10:04 PM

I'm thinking he rolled a 6 for the daemon weapon, with 3s to hit and re-rolls and 2s to wound the other guy probably just failed one or two saves more then he should have.

That's what I'm saying, it was fairly lucky rolling. And Driago's T5, so it's 3's to wound. Killing a Dreadknight in assault for a beefy MC isn't particularly impressive, either, as the DK only have a 5+ invulnerable save.

Learn2Eel

10-08-2012, 12:23 AM

That's what I'm saying, it was fairly lucky rolling. And Driago's T5, so it's 3's to wound. Killing a Dreadknight in assault for a beefy MC isn't particularly impressive, either, as the DK only have a 5+ invulnerable save.

Yeah no doubt.
By the way the Black Mace has Fleshbane, thus the Prince was wounding both Draigo and the Dreadknight on 2s.

Learn2Eel

10-08-2012, 04:55 AM

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1290097

This model is perfect in every way to do the Khorne Lord that I want to do. Except for the fact that he is metal. Argh.
I'm thinking either running him with my 3-man two-plasma gun biker unit because I already have the bikes or getting models to represent Spawn.
Running him with the bikes would make them a bigger target, but hey, with the icon of Khorne they could be charging (if I went second) on my first turn, especially given how small my LGS boards are.
That and with the plasma guns it makes it a very nasty, fast and versatile unit.

It really is what I've noticed so far, even though I haven't factored them into my lists yet. You can make some really cool and killy Chaos Lords that are wildly different. Shooty Tzeentch Lords with Terminator armour, the sigil of corruption and the burning brand of skalathrax, or a nurgle lord with the black mace, etc. Ah, can't wait to actually start testing out some cool combat lords - something I've never really tried before in any codex. My Sorcerer Lords will probably be my most common HQs but it doesn't hurt to try out different stuff.

Kirsten

10-08-2012, 05:43 AM

In Case of Legions and fluff and the like - why the hell is it a MUST to upgrade the now painly expensive DP to a god-specific DP?! So Iron Warriors - for example - must take a deamon of "insert deity here" - how poor is that?

yup, and the compulsory upgrades are not necessarily great, all worse than the marks except for the slaanesh one. I don't understand why you can't just take a daemon prince, give it the normal mark if you want to, and if you do, you get your cult choice as troops. The nurgle one is just bad, shrouded probably wont be much use mose of the time, you don't want a model like that sat in cover, and slow and purposeful is worse than the relentless he has as a monstrous creature. I am liking the codex over all, looks pretty well balanced, but the daemon prince is just silly

Mr Mystery

10-08-2012, 06:42 AM

Caitsidhe

10-08-2012, 06:50 AM

Daemonette666

10-08-2012, 07:54 AM

Daemonette666. Top marks for completely ignoring that Sonic Weapons now ignore cover. Which I shouldn't have the point out is a massive bonus. Enemy dug in? I feel a solo coming on.

As for losing the option to assault after a widdlywaa? Well that's what your units are for? Like Csm?

What is a widdlywaa? Congratulations on a new silly word.

Yes I forgot they ignored cover.

The high initiative and assault has traditionally been the Noise marines biggest benefit, and used quite often as storm troops in my games. But what happens to the noise marine unit when they soften up a defender for another unit to charge? They sit there, usually out in the open and wait for the enemy move in and shoot them down. usually with 2 or 3 units. I would prefer to be in close combat at that stage, so the enemy can not shoot your squad to bits.

I would gladly paid an extra 2 points to have them as assault 2/ heavy 3 still and then add in the ignores cover. I then have much more tactical flexibility.

Kirsten

10-08-2012, 08:04 AM

The high initiative and assault has traditionally been the Noise marines biggest benefit, and used quite often as storm troops in my games. But what happens to the noise marine unit when they soften up a defender for another unit to charge? They sit there, usually out in the open and wait for the enemy move in and shoot them down. usually with 2 or 3 units. I would prefer to be in close combat at that stage, so the enemy can not shoot your squad to bits.

'usually two or three units' is just hyperbole, there is no guarantee anything would happen at all, every game is different. It is not the end of the world if you have to modify your use of a unit, the game evolves, it is good that things change. Plenty of other units just have rapid fire weapons, and so wouldn't be able to charge either, being a salvo weapon gives them the extra shots if you stay still. Noise Marines are eared for shooting and that is how most people would probably use them anyway I suspect. If you had assault two guns you might kill all the people in charge range anyway, then be left out of combat just as before, only you would have taken overwatch fire too.

turning the Sonic Blasters into Salvo Weapons that ignore cover does is add insult to injury against Bugs and (oddly enough) Daemons.

there are plenty of none power armour enemies out there to fight, and I have never yet faced a nid army or a daemon army that sat in cover anyway, so ignoring cover, not very important.

Caitsidhe

10-08-2012, 08:14 AM

there are plenty of none power armour enemies out there to fight, and I have never yet faced a nid army or a daemon army that sat in cover anyway, so ignoring cover, not very important.

<chuckles> There are plenty of them out there but from a competitive standpoint (and that is all I talking about here) the most dangerous, regular opponents you are going to face are Space Marines of one stripe or another and Necrons. The factions you might face without power armor on a regular basis in competitive formats are Dark Eldar and IG. The problem here is that they have excellent long range shooting while the Noise Marines with these rules have mid-range shooting. :)

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with the new Noise Marines. I like them. I'm just being pragmatic about the cover save change. That part doesn't do much for me personally. It is nice to have it but it won't affect 90% of my games. The change from assault to salvo does affect me, but not that much. I don't use Noise Marines to storm positions (I never have). I camp them and shoot. In that respect I have lost nothing and gained the ability to get Feel No Pain (and with this edition Overwatch with three shots per model). The Slannesh Disciplines also tie in nicely with Sonic Blasters. I'm just pointing out the cover change isn't that big a deal.

Learn2Eel

10-08-2012, 08:47 AM

Ignores cover is just a benefit really, especially for defensive units. Wyches and Dark Eldar in general will hate you if you get close though. Orks relying on KFF will also have a hard time. Really though, they get a mini battle cannon shot that ignores cover. If you don't opt for artillery, go for doom sirens and the CCW. They will still do well, especially with Feel No Pain.

Caitsidhe

10-08-2012, 08:59 AM

True enough. If you want assault style Noise Marines, don't buy the upgrade to Sonic Blasters and just spam Doom Sirens. I find it hilarious that they make Blastmasters so expensive and Doom Sirens available in five man squads. :D I've already built fun lists where tons of min/max Doom Siren Squads and been able to really cheese people with them. I don't think I will do it often, but it is effective. It remains true that massed firing is great but most units can still only fire at a single target. Cheap Noise Marines running next to each other in five man squads tend to make it across the board in better numbers than large units of them (and have more AP-3 firepower when they get there). Go figure.

ragnarcissist

10-08-2012, 09:18 AM

so whats the general consesus on possessed? i really like the models and i have a bunch but are they worth the points?

ElectricPaladin

10-08-2012, 09:25 AM

I'd like to say that as a non-Chaos player, I like what I'm hearing so far. It seems like they've managed to make a codex that is fun and flavorful, but not over the top. I hope the rest of the 6th edition releases continue in this vein.

Caitsidhe

10-08-2012, 09:31 AM

so whats the general consesus on possessed? i really like the models and i have a bunch but are they worth the points?

They are improved but still not worth the points. It is an expensive dedicated close combat unit. You are going to be hard pressed to find any of these worth the points.

Archon

10-08-2012, 11:39 AM

Well ... who is investing his (or his and her) power into the marine to make him a daemon prince? Gotta be somebody, right?

Ever heard of "chaos undivided" :cool:

yup, and the compulsory upgrades are not necessarily great, all worse than the marks except for the slaanesh one. I don't understand why you can't just take a daemon prince, give it the normal mark if you want to, and if you do, you get your cult choice as troops. The nurgle one is just bad, shrouded probably wont be much use mose of the time, you don't want a model like that sat in cover, and slow and purposeful is worse than the relentless he has as a monstrous creature. I am liking the codex over all, looks pretty well balanced, but the daemon prince is just silly

yes the boni are pretty low. Slaanesh gets the most out of his 10 points, cause with fleet you can reroll the chargerange. But what was in the head of the designer as he decides to add "rending" to the list? For a DP?

Shrouded on the other hand seems usefull to me. You can walk the 4th-Ed-Way behind a rhino or a land raider, witch will gets you 3+ cover save, not bad vs. ap 3 and lower weaponary.

But to make things worser it is hard to get the hands on biomancy´s Nr. 1 spell :eek: because you have to buy TWO levels of mastery, one for the god-sepcific (you have to do that because, you have to buy the upgrade) and then - you hop to roll a one.... and all this for the cost of a tooled up landraider *sigh* ...

<chuckles> There are plenty of them out there but from a competitive standpoint (and that is all I talking about here) the most dangerous, regular opponents you are going to face are Space Marines of one stripe or another and Necrons. The factions you might face without power armor on a regular basis in competitive formats are Dark Eldar and IG. The problem here is that they have excellent long range shooting while the Noise Marines with these rules have mid-range shooting. :)

Ignore cover is very usefull, when you play against eldar (rangers), dark eldar (kabilites, wracks), orks, kroot. But you have to spend a turn to get in a fire-position.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with the new Noise Marines. I like them. I'm just being pragmatic about the cover save change. That part doesn't do much for me personally. It is nice to have it but it won't affect 90% of my games. The change from assault to salvo does affect me, but not that much. I don't use Noise Marines to storm positions (I never have). I camp them and shoot. In that respect I have lost nothing and gained the ability to get Feel No Pain (and with this edition Overwatch with three shots per model). The Slannesh Disciplines also tie in nicely with Sonic Blasters. I'm just pointing out the cover change isn't that big a deal.

I use NM to storm positions in the last editon very often. 6 NM with champ with doomsiren, will easyly handel a full tactiacal squad :cool:

Siren - good as before
Sonic Blaster - lost mobilility and flexibility, gets "ignore cover", gets cheaper (but tool out a sqaud with VofLW, CCW and you hit nearly the old price)
Blast Master - gets "ignore", gets a little cheaper, gets less availability (one per ten ... )

Mr Mystery

10-08-2012, 12:34 PM

For those wondering, widdlywaa is a sort of mental 'I can't believe what my hands are playing' poodle rock style completely overblown solo....

Mr Mystery

10-08-2012, 12:39 PM

I like how the Blastmaster is also a pinning weapon. Really quite nasty!

They're pretty saucy for Overwatch as well.

Definitely a horrible unit to face in a cityfight.

Lee Lucas

10-08-2012, 09:02 PM

Heya all.
First post, thought I'd chime in.

Just got the Codex, my initial thoughts:

Likes

Artwork is the best yet.
Layout is great, much easier to navigate.
Slaanesh Icon adding Feel no pain is both fluffy and useful.
Most units are reasonably priced.
Most accompanying models are of very high quality.
Seems well balanced (Unlike my previous Codex Space Wolves).

Dislikes

Very limited wargear (Chaos, IMO, should be filled to the brim with all kinds of artifacts and mutations).
Cult choices are very limited (No unique Cult Terminator weapons).
Several Cults are not represented at all (Night Lords, Iron Warriors etc).
Underwhelming Hellbrute.
Underwhelming Mutilator.
No new characters (Erebus,Talos Valcoran and others from novels) or even a named Hellbrute.
Cypher still missing.
No unique Daemon Princes (Remember Doombreed from 2nd Edition Codex?).
No new Vehicles.

Overall I can't help but feel dissapointed, but maybe this style and balance will extend to future codex releases?

I really hope some reinforcement pdf's make it onto the GW website.

daboarder

10-08-2012, 09:08 PM

There are some pretty big problems with the codex.

There is the old "why did they give slaanesh the FNP icon" If they had been smart about the icons/marks they would have been the perfect way to make "psuedo-cult" units instead we are again left high and dry in that department.

Secondly read the terminator options carefully. You can no longer take a combi-special and a special close combat weapon on the same terminator. You can no longer take 3-man squads with a heavy. Finally the options for the champions are ridiculously overpriced, three times the regular cost to give him paired lightning claws.

The boon table has a couple of pretty glaring weaknesses, if you roll a boon that gives you no benefit or you already have you do not get to re-roll. Dark apotheosis and spawndom are both incredibly poorly written rules that will outright kill your model more often than not (read the placement restrictions and remember you will likely be in combat at the time.

The artefacts are nice but there is no where near enough options to either make the list decent or cover any variation, for example there is a SINGLE daemon weapon available to generic chaos lords (two if you play Khorne).

while things did get cheaper they also got considerably worse in most cases, it is now more expensive to run your CSM'ss in the old configuration, another example is the loss of fearless for obliterators or Eternal warrior for the daemon prince (who is only ever T5).

ultimately while a new list is always fun to play with this is largely a lateral step when chaos really needed the boost and unfortunately I have a feeling this codex is going to be obsolete within a few months. Basically it caught a case of Nid ssyndrome.

Honestly can't remember if I've posted this here yet, ah well

Daemonette666

10-08-2012, 11:16 PM

I am writing up an army list for a game tomorrow, and just realised that they changed the weapons that a hell brute and defiler now get. No longer do you get a dreadnought close combat weapon, you get a power fist.

I checked the main rule book, and could not find anything that allowed walkers to attack at normal initiative regardless of the weapon carried, and then realised they have still a weapon profile for the dreadnought close combat weapon.

This means the marine dreadnought attacks at their normal initiative phase, and the hell brute and defiler attack at initiative 1 (unwieldy).

I suppose this is a good reason to take daemons and have soul grinder as they still get dreadnought close combat weapons.

I know marine dreadnoughts used to be able to attack before our defilers anyway, but now melta bombs and other troops with unwieldy weapons like chainfists can strike at the same time as the Chaos walkers.

Another sneaky move to make our units not as useful. The Defiler was increased in price by 45 points. For that all we got was a 5+ invul, now cause fear (which space marines are immune to), it will not die (but can still die in one round), daemonic possession was weakened, and a one use ability with daemonforge that could wound the walker itself.

Daemonette666

10-08-2012, 11:49 PM

Found the rule for walkers and power fists under unwieldy. So I can use it at normal initiative. Was hard to find the ruling, I thought it would have been under walkers and monstrous creatures (most relevant place to look for it).

the cho-jin

10-09-2012, 01:05 AM

Gir

10-09-2012, 01:05 AM

The Shadow King

10-09-2012, 02:33 AM

There is the old "why did they give slaanesh the FNP icon" If they had been smart about the icons/marks they would have been the perfect way to make "psuedo-cult" units instead we are again left high and dry in that department.

Because Slaaneshi troops in flavour terms are better for feel no pain? Because it means you can have more different troops, ie plague marines and noise marines, with feel no pain? Because Terminators units with toughness 5 and feel no pain would have been a right pain?

Secondly read the terminator options carefully. You can no longer take a combi-special and a special close combat weapon on the same terminator.
Yes you can. one replaces the combi bolter, one replaces the power weapon. Simple.

The artefacts are nice but there is no where near enough options to either make the list decent or cover any variation, for example there is a SINGLE daemon weapon available to generic chaos lords (two if you play Khorne).

Many more options than before though where you had a daemon weapon and that was it. It just varied based on your mark, not what you bought as a weapon. Now you have a few different artifacts as options, as well as a couple of new options in the chaos rewards.

while things did get cheaper they also got considerably worse in most cases, it is now more expensive to run your CSM'ss in the old configuration, another example is the loss of fearless for obliterators or Eternal warrior for the daemon prince (who is only ever T5).

Fearless for Obliterators is usually pointless anyway, if you're really worried, just take them in one man squads. The Daemon prince is T5, which means 99% of weapons won't instant death him. The biggest culprits will be mass squads of force weapons, which are Grey Knights, which were always bad for Daemon guys anyway, what with preferred enemy and various grenades and walkers with powerfists/DCC weapons which should be destroyed relatively easily because of the Daemon Princes high I and smash attack.

Also did anyone else notice you get rolls on the boon chart even when not in a challenge? You can have a character (inc a champion) be part of a unit that shoots to death a sergeant type and get a roll on the chart, or a sorcerer that kills a character with a psychic power at range, or even when you kill someone with a burning brand. That's pretty good.

Daemonette666

10-09-2012, 02:35 AM

I would have looked under the special rule for what if effects first, personally.

And I would have looked under the actual unit type or vehicle type special rules first.

In the current rule set and old rule set, they have the exceptions or special rules listed under the unit type description (i.e. bikes can not go to ground in current book) and I was used to looking up that first.

I cross check with the various rules, special rules, and sections discussing what you want to do (such as shooting, or close combat) as well. The new rule book has everything spread over the different sections with some rules contradicting or over riding others, so you have to keep flipping between things like assault rules, vehicle walker rules, and special rules to get an exact picture of how the model is affected, or behaves.

Sometimes even something in plain sight is overlooked.

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 03:11 AM

I'm going to try to get in some games soon, and I'll be able to really work out some interesting combinations.

As for Chaos Marines being a point of leadership lower and ending up being more expensive than before to get it back and the CCW, to be honest, I've never really been fussed about my Chaos squads running away. Even playing basic marines without an icon, I've never had any issues or times when I've had to make a do-or-die leadership test. And the fact is, Leadership 9 is usually what I had before anyway - I almost never took Aspiring Champions, so in reality the leadership is the same unless the sergeant dies. If you've suffered a bunch of wounds in combat, chances are they are dead anyway. Plus, we can get Fearless on them now for only three meltabombs more than an icon of chaos glory. If you are worried about leadership tests with big modifiers, then Fearless is going to be better generally, and it also means you will never be swept or pinned - something that the icon of chaos glory couldn't prevent. Whilst the cost might seem prohibitive, I think it is fair.

Also, it's a point more for Hatred (Space Marines) and marks/icons got cheaper. The old Mark of Nurgle would cost an arm and a leg on any squad, now a ten man unit has to pay the price of a chaos spawn for it. And even then, as much as marks and icons boost the cost of your squads exponentially, it is hardly like they are necessary. In the majority of cases, Chaos Marines will do the same job as Tactical Marines, and if you pay slightly more points, they can do it a lot better. Tacticals might get cheaper special weapons, but their basic marines cost quite a bit more in a 10-man unit. Just because Chaos Marines aren't Grey Hunters - the most points efficient Troops in the game - doesn't mean they all of a sudden suck.

The fact that you can tailor Chaos Marines to be effective in just about any situation - like Tacticals - and not be overpriced is perfectly fine by me. I can get T5 marines and two special weapons for virtually the exact same cost as an equivalent-numbered Tactical squad. As much as the T5 chaos marines don't have And They Shall Know No Fear, they will suffer a lot less wounds and thus have to take the tests far less anyway.
With Obliterators losing Fearless and a point of leadership, it is a nerf but in reality Obliterators are best when they are slowly moving up the field anyway, so I wouldn't be worried about them running off the table.

daboarder

10-09-2012, 03:53 AM

double post

daboarder

10-09-2012, 03:54 AM

Because Slaaneshi troops in flavour terms are better for feel no pain? Because it means you can have more different troops, ie plague marines and noise marines, with feel no pain? Because Terminators units with toughness 5 and feel no pain would have been a right pain?

No it wouldn't stupid arguement given bikes can get slaanesh icon, not going there again please stop

Yes you can. one replaces the combi bolter, one replaces the power weapon. Simple.

NO you cannot you get ONE OF THE THREE OPTIONS, replace combi-, replace power weapon, take pair LC's

Many more options than before though where you had a daemon weapon and that was it. It just varied based on your mark, not what you bought as a weapon. Now you have a few different artifacts as options, as well as a couple of new options in the chaos rewards.

BLARG! excuse me that was my lung, you do know the difference between 5 and 1 right? 5 is the bigger number, a single generic daemon weapon that is AP4? yeah have fun

Fearless for Obliterators is usually pointless anyway, if you're really worried, just take them in one man squads. The Daemon prince is T5, which means 99% of weapons won't instant death him. The biggest culprits will be mass squads of force weapons, which are Grey Knights, which were always bad for Daemon guys anyway, what with preferred enemy and various grenades and walkers with powerfists/DCC weapons which should be destroyed relatively easily because of the Daemon Princes high I and smash attack.

take a single obliterator.....right then, so your solution is to just not take options with problems....what was that about diversity again? the daemon prince is going to drop like a fly in many games, psykers and force weapons are far far to prevalent as are S10 weapons, he is nowhere near survivable enough for his points.

Also did anyone else notice you get rolls on the boon chart even when not in a challenge? You can have a character (inc a champion) be part of a unit that shoots to death a sergeant type and get a roll on the chart, or a sorcerer that kills a character with a psychic power at range, or even when you kill someone with a burning brand. That's pretty good.

Please read when you respond, I said you are USUALLY going to be in combat when you roll. and does the fact that "you might not be" really make up for the fact that the RAW is going to kill you when you are?

answered in read

In short using gimmicks to get round botched rules just illustrates my point for me.

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 04:32 AM

answered in read

In short using gimmicks to get round botched rules just illustrates my point for me.

They made a design decision that Slaanesh should get Feel No Pain, just accept it dude. The main part of Nurgle armies still get Feel No Pain anyway. It might seem stupid but even age-old Death Guard mates of mine don't mind the change at all. Bikes also do not all have power weapons/fists and are not in terminator armour, so its not like you are actually doing the same thing.

I think it is intentional, but it is just silly. I never ran combi-spam terminators myself, but I know a lot of Chaos players definitely did, and being forced to count their combi-weapons as combi-bolters or, worse yet, rip off the arms is bad.

I think what he was referring to was options outside of just daemon weapons. In that sense, we got stuff like the Burning Brand, the Scrolls of Magnus, the Murder Sword, etc. The lack of daemon weapons hurts but we've gotten what would probably be called more interesting and unique options instead. The Black Mace isn't AP2, but it will still force a lot of saves; fleshbane makes it a potent monstrous-creature hunting weapon. Whilst not as good as the old Plaguebearer, in that sense, you aren't restricted to Nurgle with it. Not that I disagree with you, I wish there were more daemon weapons.

I don't really have a problem with the Obliterator changes, it's a nerf by losing Fearless but how often will they realistically run off the table if you are using them properly? They aren't meant to sit back and sit in your back-field, they become exponentially more dangerous the closer they get and that has always been the best use of them. In that sense, if they fail a leadership test, they shouldn't run off the board. And even then, being such a small-model unit, it's rare they will fail one anyway. IMO I weigh it up like this - 5 points cheaper for the loss of Fearless and a point of leadership and using the same weapon in consecutive turns but gained Assault Cannons and for a point more than they used to be they can be T5. Considering what usually kills Obliterators is S8-9 AP2 weaponry, that's a big buff in that sense IMO.

3" is fine for a breathing space usually I think you will find, all you really need to do is have part of the base touching that 3" circle. You should easily be able to get around friendly models like that. The only times I'd be worried are in big combats with 20+ models, but how often do those happen nowadays given that units will almost always be cut down at least partially by shooting? And even then, with the pile in rules, as long as your models weren't really spread out when you charged, again there shouldn't be a massive problem getting to the side or behind them.

daboarder

10-09-2012, 04:34 AM

3" is fine for a breathing space usually I think you will find, all you really need to do is have part of the base touching that 3" circle. You should easily be able to get around friendly models like that. The only times I'd be worried are in big combats with 20+ models, but how often do those happen nowadays given that units will almost always be cut down at least partially by shooting? And even then, with the pile in rules, as long as your models weren't really spread out when you charged, again there shouldn't be a massive problem getting to the side or behind them.

either you don't play much or you don't read the rules.

within 3' of your base but 1' away form the enemy, good luck

and why teh hell is everything now referred to as SPAM this SPAM that, just because some fool was taking one unit over and over again does that justify such arbitary sweeps? of course not. If you really believe it did you'd be never running the same unit twice or playing with gimpy WD lists.

could you people please stop using silly arguments that were never raised untill you needed to justify stupid changes to yourselves

/rant

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 04:36 AM

I do play much, and I do read the rules. 3" is fine. It isn't perfect but it will be enough for most occasions.
Seriously, how often do you run into a massive melee?

daboarder

10-09-2012, 04:39 AM

I do play much, and I do read the rules. 3" is fine. It isn't perfect but it will be enough for most occasions.
Seriously, how often do you run into a massive melee?

no its not, it really isn't or were you running the character on the edge of the unit in an edition where that gets him dead. This rule is going to cause a huge amount of crap and fan action after people see their characters killing themselves like clockwork roughly every 6 or so games.

let me elaborate, if there is 2 enemy models deep or three of your own around your unit (and using the correct pile in and assault moment there likely will be as it means yours and your enemy models are further spread out) your lord is DEAD!

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 04:49 AM

I place characters tactically when considering all options. The middle of the unit seems obvious but it isn't always. If you know your opponent can't really get around your flanks, putting the sergeant at the back of the unit works fine too.
When you pile in, you move in closer to your enemy, correct? That either means your unit is thinning out to get into base to base contact with a spread out unit as you have to attempt to get into base to base, or they bubble wrap and move around. In the second scenario, for a 10 man unit of Chaos Marines, that would mean there would probably be like 4 guys at the front, the sergeant behind them with two guys, then two more on each flank trying to get into base to base. You don't pile-in into your own models unless it is the shortest way to get into base-to-base. That leaves more than enough room for you to get out.

Pretty much every melee I've seen that doesn't involve a lot of models would justifiably have more than enough room to accomodate a Spawn/Prince result. And if you are worried about it when you charge, put the champion in a place that would better accomodate that. Just because you have to think about something does not mean it is bad. Hence why in bigger games a Daemon Prince can still work with the right tools - you can't rush up blindly with him, but if you are careful and pick your engagements, he will kill stuff like no tomorrow. A lot of Grey Knights units aren't as threatening when he kills all of them before they attack him, and the ones that survive hit him on 5s with re-rolls of 1s and wound on 5s with re-rolls of 1s unless they use Hammerhand which then prevents them from using their force weapons. Just don't run wildly into Draigo, but you wouldn't have done that in the last edition anyway. Not that he is the best option, mind you.

daboarder

10-09-2012, 04:53 AM

just pick up the bases and play around, you'll see what I mean if you don't fool yourself and introduce bias into the experiment.

Bean

10-09-2012, 04:55 AM

no its not, it really isn't or were you running the character on the edge of the unit in an edition where that gets him dead. This rule is going to cause a huge amount of crap and fan action after people see their characters killing themselves like clockwork roughly every 6 or so games.

let me elaborate, if there is 2 enemy models deep or three of your own around your unit (and using the correct pile in and assault moment there likely will be as it means yours and your enemy models are further spread out) your lord is DEAD!

While I generally agree with you that the rule should be a little more forgiving, it's worth noting that a 25mm base is actually a little under an inch. It actually takes a four-model ring to prevent the champion from being placed within 3" of his original position. I think this is the scenario you're proposing:

MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMCMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM

In this particular instance, the champion actually has lots of places he can go--since each model is just under an inch wide. For instance, you can do this:

MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMM--MMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
MMMMMMM
----- DP

No worries. So, it does actually take an incredibly massive fight with the champion right in the middle to leave him without a legal position.

daboarder

10-09-2012, 04:59 AM

they are not going to stay in those nicely ordered B2B positions in a real game or as soon as they have to pile in.

and the enemy models count as extra as you cannot be within 1' of them.

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 04:59 AM

just pick up the bases and play around, you'll see what I mean if you don't fool yourself and introduce bias into the experiment.

Introduce bias into the experiment? Give me a break. As Bean points out, even if you are in the middle of a squad, you will still have room to move. In a 10-man unit, three wide, you can put the Daemon Prince on either side as you will still be touching the 3" bubble. If the unit is wider across, that would inevitably mean you would be able to get out backwards. The only times you will ever really have an issue are in big melees or when your unit is surrounded.

And your point on pile-in and real positions is also funny as by nature of piling-in they will be moving up and around, giving the champion more room to move in the arc behind him.

It might be a bit unforgiving but it is hardly the instant-death event you are making it out to be. You will be able to place the model most of the time.

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 05:05 AM

daboarder you seriously need to chill the frak out and stop being so rude

daboarder

10-09-2012, 05:05 AM

yeah ok

haha post 666 most chilled post ever

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 05:08 AM

personally I don't foresee my lord often being in a situation where he couldn't be replaced, in a unit with five terminators he should have space to go backwards if the enemies are all around the front and sides. Also, he has to issue challenges, so just move the duelling pair to the edge of the combat, sorted :)

daboarder

10-09-2012, 05:12 AM

I'm just very touchy about this topic.

I've been playing for years and you wouldn't believe how much my armies have been shafter recently.

I play horde nids (ok they got better in 6th but they did get largely ruined by the 5th codex)
Jump BA since 2nd (LOVING 6th's reserve rules /sarcasm)
Nurgle Chaos (why oh why can't I play cult, I'd even happily take the I penalty for FNP)

its doesn't really sound bad when an army gets a mediocre release, and it sounds even less terrible when you say well only Nids and chaos have gotten those, but its hurts when those are BOTH the armies you play ya know.

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 05:16 AM

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 05:19 AM

Don't worry dude, I'm not trying to single you out or anything. We are all coming to grips with the codex and there are definitely issues that we all agree should be or should have been addressed.
I do know how you feel, I have a friend who bought into Fantasy Daemons and also tried to do 40K Daemons but - as you can tell - he really got stuffed around by the Chaos Daemons codex. Now he talks about all the armies he wants to start and basically stops just short of saying he wants to auction them off.
For me personally, nothing is quite like watching the majority of my Dark Eldar all of a sudden become near-useless overnight. A mate of mine, a very staunch player of them who absolutely loved them - they were his primary army - and knew the codex inside out now can't find the motivation to play with them anymore.
IMO I think this Chaos release needs time, it isn't what we all wanted but it is at least an improvement.

Bean

10-09-2012, 05:19 AM

they are not going to stay in those nicely ordered B2B positions in a real game or as soon as they have to pile in.

and the enemy models count as extra as you cannot be within 1' of them.

True. What they're going to do, most of the time, is pack in even tighter--note that the grid I present is not the optimal stacking pattern for circles on a plane.

And yes, enemy models add an extra inch--but since they're still less than an inch each themselves, it still takes three enemies or four friendlies to trap a champion--less only with a particularly loose pattern.

Anyway, like I said, it's a stupid way to write the rule--it's not hard to make sure that the ascended champion is never in danger of dying as a result of the ascension, and that's how it should be--but, in practice, this is not going to come up very often.

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 05:20 AM

well it all goes round and round, it is an evolving game, it grows, develops, things change, that is what keeps us interested. I had a world eaters army in third edition, in fourth edition they kinda sucked and were just seriously boring to play. now the codex has come round again and is better than it was. you never know, the way things are going these days there might be a white dwarf index astartes type list again with specific legion rules :)

I actually really wouldn't be surprised if either Forge World or White Dwarf introduce Legion specific rules post-heresy. The Primarchs are probably still off limits for rules but I wouldn't mind a mini-codex supplement to have more legion options. With the Daemon updates they did recently, I think it might be a reality.

On Tyranids, I am thinking they are going to get some really massive rule changes. The fact that they can't take Allies or Fortifications indicates to me they are probably going to be getting some serious love to compensate when they are re-done. They are the most feared opponents of the Necrons and almost every race in the game, they should damn well reflect it. As long as pretty much the entire codex gets a serious points-decrease and quite a few units are re-tooled and wargear changed around, they should do well. Just keep Cruddance away from them.

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 05:26 AM

I think they could well do, Jervis Johnson has said previously he would love to see a legion book, but really we don't need a book, just something supplementary. You could have done legion rules in one codex page really, just one tweak for each legion, and people would have been happy, so a white dwarf update would be easy to do

Learn2Eel

10-09-2012, 05:30 AM

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 05:33 AM

well as the saying goes you can never please everyone all the time. a one a month series for nine months in white dwarf would be awesome. It wouldn't even have to be a special character, it could be a wargear option, give me a warsmith lord, and even something simple like the ability to take an extra fortification, and I would be happy

The Shadow King

10-09-2012, 05:48 AM

Terminators with toughness 5 and feel no pain are very different from mere bikes with feel no pain so no comparison there. Also the icon would have had to have given more than just feel no pain if nurgly as otherwise plague marines would never take the icon, or if they had their feel no pain taken away, be forced into taking the icon.

No matter what you might think, there was only one Daemon weapon before. You had the mark of Slannesh you had one choice, the same with the other marks. Now you have the choice or a daemon weapon, no matter how you are marked, plus many other choices. The equipment options for Chaos Lords is much greater than before. Besides if you really want your Daemon weapon to be AP4 ie even nastier than it is now, just give it to your Daemon Prince, wullah AP2

Not sure about the Terminator weapons thing without the book in front of me.

Take more Obliterators if you like, leadership tests for them are pretty irrelevant nonetheless, or if you're really desperate for them to be fearless, lead them with a warpsmith or something.

If you have a Daemon prince in combat with a single psyker and he can't kill it before the psyker manages to strike back, then you are having terrible luck. Even then you're WS 9, T 5, with an invulnerable save. Not in a whole lot of trouble against a single force weapon.

The Shadow King

10-09-2012, 06:06 AM

Without looking at the book, I imagine the terminator thing is actually saying that you can swap the power weapon for one item, the combie bolter for one item or both for one item, rather than one of them for one item.

Archon

10-09-2012, 06:17 AM

I like how the Blastmaster is also a pinning weapon. Really quite nasty!

They're pretty saucy for Overwatch as well.

Definitely a horrible unit to face in a cityfight.

Do you like to buy 10 Marines to get a single BM? That means the availability is halved.

Overall I can't help but feel dissapointed, but maybe this style and balance will extend to future codex releases?

Yes, DA will be the next victim - all shiny, but in the end a littel meh -especially when compared to the actual power-books (SW; GK; BA). Maybe one or two codecies in the same flavor and then - bash a new round of power for the shiny Marines:eek:

I think it is intentional, but it is just silly. I never ran combi-spam terminators myself, but I know a lot of Chaos players definitely did, and being forced to count their combi-weapons as combi-bolters or, worse yet, rip off the arms is bad.

Why talk about combi-spam? When I look to my terminators (numbering 20 - ten in plastik, build over the last couple of years and ten in metal, mostly secon-hand) I will found a lot of dudes wich will be illegal issued - non of them were spam! They build 4 teams with a flexible loadout of weapons.

This new wording for the options of the terminators is simply stupid. Forcing players to proxy or to rip off their stuff. I don´t have some extra shoulder pads for a weapon change. So what is the meaning of this wording anyway? I hope for a stupid error so far.

I think what he was referring to was options outside of just daemon weapons. In that sense, we got stuff like the Burning Brand, the Scrolls of Magnus, the Murder Sword, etc. The lack of daemon weapons hurts but we've gotten what would probably be called more interesting and unique options instead. The Black Mace isn't AP2, but it will still force a lot of saves; fleshbane makes it a potent monstrous-creature hunting weapon. Whilst not as good as the old Plaguebearer, in that sense, you aren't restricted to Nurgle with it. Not that I disagree with you, I wish there were more daemon weapons.

It just bad, that they are no generic deamon-weapons. A DW has one porpose to kill lots of stuff and with stuff I mean space marines. The old one was still fine. Things change, yes, but only to worse? The only MEQ killing D-weapon is khornate. The only other is AP4 and has very complicated rules, wich is not deadly straight forward but takes a lot of time wich to explain to your opponent and only enfold at the end of the combatphase (wich means the sm-lord with thunderhammer und stormshield has punched you to a heap of meat, bone and armourfragments). Very fitting.

Take a closer look the other artefacts. The Sword is fine, if you will spend the game chasing your opponents warlord with your own. That was it.
The Flamer is fine, no question. The Key is somewhat unnecessary. If you kill something in cc, its mid. of round 2 (earlyst). By then it is very low chance that your terminators (the one with proxy weapons) a still in reserve. Realisticaly we talking of mid. round 3. So rules not complety overthought. The Scroll is risky one (your sorcerer has only to wounds) and will still not bring you the right spell. You have to by desperate to take this one (or have a lots of points left and willing to play spell-heavy).

Kirsten

10-09-2012, 06:17 AM

unfortunately not, you can either upgrade the power weapon, or the combi weapon, but not both, which is annoying for my combi melta/plasma powerfist terminators.

Archon if you were a transformer you would be negatron :P

Archon

10-09-2012, 06:45 AM

Daemonette666

10-09-2012, 06:58 AM

I don't really have a problem with the Obliterator changes, it's a nerf by losing Fearless but how often will they realistically run off the table if you are using them properly?

I think there is a possible upside to Obliterators losing fearless. They can not overwatch fire, and do not get defensive grenades. They are also armed with Power fists so unless you want to hit the enemy with your lascannon, you are using an unwieldy weapon. Basically the enemy get to charge in without you overwatching and if they have grenades, they get to strike first in most cases (unless also carrying unwieldy weapons).

What if the enemy use one unit with plasma cannons or plasma guns to shoot your obliterators while another who uses pistols charges you? You are only left with a cover save or your invul save. Say you in 4+ cover, you can now choose to " go to ground" Slow and purposeful" does not make going to ground impossible, so you now get a 3+ cover save against the plasma weapons, and a 2+ armour save against anything not AP 2.

With a LD of 8 or 9, depending on your upgrading with VOTLW, they are less likely to fail a LD test than most units in 40K.

The only downside is if your Oblits fail the LD test in close combat, and then get run down by the pursing enemy.

Daemonette666

10-09-2012, 07:23 AM

Yeah definitely, basically all you would need to do are minor tweaks i.e. true cult terminators, maybe an extra special character or two for the un-represented legions, some more specific rules for Alpha Legion and Night Lords such as purchasing Infiltrate, Raptors as Troops, etc.
I hope so! I met a great guy on the weekend who is an ardent collector of Sisters of Battle and Alpha Legion, and he seemed pretty content with the situation for both - he mostly made light of it. However, you can tell a lot of players are getting the short end of the stick.

I would love to see both cult terminators and Havocs for the Emperors Children - Noise weapons all round. Throw in a cult chosen with the option for every model replacing their bolter with a doom siren. and their CCW with a power weapon (very expensive unit I know) and they are kick a** in close combat. Predators and Dreadnoughts, sorry Hell Brutes with Sonic Weapons.

Every Legion could have it's classic bonuses.

Iron Warriors - tank hunter havocs, Squad Champions get Servo Arms as possible upgrade, able to use 1 heavy support vehicle - tank or artillery form either codex space marine or Imperial Guard. ability to pay for a certain ammount of terrain as fortified, or have mine fields or other defensive terrain like razor wire.

Night Lords - Night Vision, cause fear, Elites get infiltrate, bikers get outflank, predators and vindicators become fast vehicles. No chaos marks, except on daemon lords which are now forced.

Alpha Legion - all units except Terminators, spawn and vehicles get infiltrate, scout, outflank, shroud and move through cover, although bikers, raptors and warp talons only get scout, move through cover and outflank.

They could design rules like these for the legion specific forces. Mine are just examples of what I think would be a good Idea, to suit their fluff fighting styles.

magickbk

10-09-2012, 08:16 AM

Played against the new Codex for the first time last night. I had Inquisition Henchmen w/ Imperial Guard allies, he had a Tzeentch-leaning army. Overall, I thought the change was a boost for Chaos. Our armies were very similar to what we fielded in the last game before the Codex. My opponent swapped out some Chaos Marines for a large number of Cultists, and dropped in a Helbrute and a Forgefiend. The Forgefiend was a great weapon platform, and I had trouble trying to chew through all those Cultists.

I know everyone was hoping for a Codex that would allow fielding of the original Legions, and I was as well, but I think this Codex is a considerable improvement over the old one. There's always the possibility if White Dwarf continues to improve that they would bring something like the Index Astartes back with Legion rules, or that they specifically didn't do that in favor of letting Forgeworld develop those.

DarkLink

10-09-2012, 10:20 AM

could you people please stop using silly arguments that were never raised untill you needed to justify stupid changes to yourselves

Dude, quit being a dick. You seem massively butt-hurt by the new codex, that doesn't mean you need to be an *** to other posters.

While I generally agree with you that the rule should be a little more forgiving, it's worth noting that a 25mm base is actually a little under an inch.

1"=25.4mm, to be precise.

Bean

10-09-2012, 12:12 PM

1"=25.4mm, to be precise.

I think point four millimeters counts as "a little." ;)

daboarder

10-09-2012, 02:43 PM

Dude, quit being a dick. You seem massively butt-hurt by the new codex, that doesn't mean you need to be an *** to other posters.

darklink that wasn't necessary mate. kirsten already pointed that out thanks.

daboarder

10-09-2012, 07:48 PM

Thought this up the other day,

this is how icons should have been

Mark of Khorne= Furious Charge, Counter Attack
Mark of Nurgle= +1T
Mark of Slaanesh = +1I
Mark of Tzeentch +1Inv Sv

Then icons:
Icon of Khorne= +1Ws, Rage
Icon of Nurgle= -1I Feel No Pain
Icon of Slaanesh= weapons have ignores cover and pinning
Icon of tzeentch= Bolt pistols, guns, combi's are AP3, Slow and purposeful, aura of dark glory

If they had thrown that it it would have worked spectacularly.

DarkLink

10-09-2012, 09:01 PM

daboarder

10-09-2012, 09:47 PM

I'd take +1A for Khorne over +1WS. I think dropping their extra attack and replacing it with Rage, combined with the lost +1I from Furious Charge was an unneeded nerf. Last edition, they were very mediocre, even if they were good on the charge. An extra attack on the charge from Rage, and a slight points drop like what they got, would have make them a much more solid unit. And why are Plasma Pistols 15pts again?

I like the Nurgle and Slaneesh buffs you have there. Nurgle is pretty solid like that, and with the ignore cover and points drop, Slaneesh becomes a competitive choice (not a big fan of Salvo, though, I think it should stay at full range when you move).

Tzeentch should be a 5+ invulnerable save or better, a 6+ is basically useless. Thousand Sons need a bit of a points drop. They weren't exactly top notch before, and now they've lost access to the book powers that let them get Hallucinate and Invisibility, or at the least the 3d6 primaris power. Soul Blaze sucks, it's not even close to making up for the gap in power.

Good points, I'm not really trying to debate the relative power of what I suggested though, merely trying to illustrate how EASY it would be to institute a psuedo-cult element to the llist and make everyone happy....sigh sometimes I wish I was a games designer/ art director and not a chemical scientist.

just a note; aura of dark glory is the 5++ so with the MoT the above would let them retain their 4++

If you wanted you could even go a step further and do this:

Models in a unit with a Mark and Icon may also purchase additional equipment from their gods wargear section.

and then in the wargear section have...

Khorne:
Chainaxe 2ppm
Collar of khorne 1ppm
Bladed chains (additional attacks)
....etc (not great with khorne ideas)

Nurgle:

Blight Grenades: 2ppm
Plague knives: 2ppm
Plague scythes: 7ppm (have it as a poisoned axe or something)
Bile thrower (1 per 3 models, poisoned flamer)
Plague fly hive (stealth) 4ppm

Slaanesh:
Doom siren (as now) 10ppm
Sonic Blaster (storm bolter?) 2ppm
Blast master 25ppm (as now,1 per 6 models)
Combat drugs (like dark eldar) 3ppm

Tzeentch:
Familliar (as now)
additional mastery (character only, as now? maybe 15ppm)
Shard of the obsidian tower (-1 to enemy DtW rolls, does not stack)
helm of many eyes (ignore perils on 5+)
Warpforged ammunition (soulblaze) 1ppm

have 3-5 unique squad items per god for a specific points per model and able to be bought on a per model basis, allowing you to do everything form Mark/Icon only to a tooled champion, to an entire (very expensive) squad steeped in the glory of their chosen god.
throw in a lord only daemon weapon for each god and call it a day.

Daemonette666

10-10-2012, 02:31 AM

Good points, I'm not really trying to debate the relative power of what I suggested though, merely trying to illustrate how EASY it would be to institute a psuedo-cult element to the llist and make everyone happy....sigh sometimes I wish I was a games designer/ art director and not a chemical scientist.

just a note; aura of dark glory is the 5++ so with the MoT the above would let them retain their 4++

If you wanted you could even go a step further and do this:

and then in the wargear section have...

Khorne:
Chainaxe 2ppm
Collar of khorne 1ppm
Bladed chains (additional attacks)
....etc (not great with khorne ideas)

Nurgle:

Blight Grenades: 2ppm
Plague knives: 2ppm
Plague scythes: 7ppm (have it as a poisoned axe or something)
Bile thrower (1 per 3 models, poisoned flamer)
Plague fly hive (stealth) 4ppm

Slaanesh:
Doom siren (as now) 10ppm
Sonic Blaster (storm bolter?) 2ppm
Blast master 25ppm (as now,1 per 6 models)
Combat drugs (like dark eldar) 3ppm

Tzeentch:
Familliar (as now)
additional mastery (character only, as now? maybe 15ppm)
Shard of the obsidian tower (-1 to enemy DtW rolls, does not stack)
helm of many eyes (ignore perils on 5+)
Warpforged ammunition (soulblaze) 1ppm

have 3-5 unique squad items per god for a specific points per model and able to be bought on a per model basis, allowing you to do everything form Mark/Icon only to a tooled champion, to an entire (very expensive) squad steeped in the glory of their chosen god.
throw in a lord only daemon weapon for each god and call it a day.

I like this list. It keeps things god/cult specific. Have another list for nor cult armies (iron warriors, Night Lords, etc) and you have the bases covered.

I had a game against Black Templars today. A few things I have learned after using a balanced themed army. Taking an Icon of Ecstasy is not worth the points. When your enemy can just roll thorugh your flank the Toughness 4 Chaos Marines or noise marines will lose their FNP against Terminators armed with Power Fist or Thunder Hammers. Add insult to injury, I could not kill more than a few of them because of their 3+ invul or 2+ armour saves (squad of normal and squad of assault termies) He combined this with chaplains who had artificer armour and cybernetics. I only killed hi 2 Emperor's Champions. the 3 other IC's (2 x chaplain and Helbrecht) survived till the end of the game.

My Obliterators, and Defiler we his first targets, with only one Obliterator surviving till turn 5. This brings about another point. The It Will Not Die rule is useless if a Melta weapon penetrates and blows you up in one go. My 5+ invul save was failed.

The Biomancy psychic power Endurance helped my last Nurgle Tgh 5 Oblit last till turn 5 because he charged a dreadnought into close combat with them. They could not overwatch, and 2 were pulped before my Defiler could jump in and destroy the Dreadnought. The defiler subsequently was shot by his melta weapons, and I moved the last Oblit into cover where it stayed for 2 turns shrugging off plasma gun shots and finishing some of his troops in a squad.

I did not have any lords armed with AP 2 weapons, and my opponent kept making his 2+ armour saves followed by 6+ cybernetics saves in challenges. Halbrecht took 2 wounds off Lucius in the first round of another close combat in the center of the table. I had to glorious intervention the next round to keep him alive. He was finally killed off as the 3rd last model I had on the table (Sorcerer, Lucius and Rhino APC) The Sorcerer was next killed in a challenge. Almost tabled. His Termies and 2+ save characters broke my back, and I had nothing to counter them as they came up on a flank where I could not get my AP 2 weaponry into play. So much for playing a themed balanced army with the new codex.

I had better try a more tooled up army next time.

I had Helbrecht in a challenge for 2 player turns before his Termies could get to my center table close combat from after cleaning up my left flank. He was on his own and I had enough troops to get 3 re-rolls. I could not hurt him with AP3 weaponry, and I lost 2 characters to that 5 player round close combat through challenges. None of my characters survived close combat challenges to be able to roll on the chaos boon table either. Maybe it was because the enemy had so many 2+/4 or 5+ characters backed up by Terminators. I did kill his bikes, dreadnought, 3 troop squads, Land Speeder and 2 Emperor's Champions. I unfortunately lost a Slaanesh marked havocs (6), CSMs (18), Cultist (unmarked 24), Oblits (Nurgle 3), Defiler, Lucius, Noise Marines (6), tooled up Sorceror Lvl 3 (Slaanesh), Chosen (Slaanesh 6). My lonely rhino was sitting in the far corner claiming line breaker.

Maybe I should have taken terminators, Daemon Prince, lots of Plasma weaponry, and other nasty stuff. Oh well lesson learnt for next time.

daboarder

10-10-2012, 03:59 AM

I did not have any lords armed with AP 2 weapons, and my opponent kept making his 2+ armour saves followed by 6+ cybernetics saves in challenges. Halbrecht took 2 wounds off Lucius in the first round of another close combat in the center of the table. I had to glorious intervention the next round to keep him alive. He was finally killed off as the 3rd last model I had on the table (Sorcerer, Lucius and Rhino APC) The Sorcerer was next killed in a challenge. Almost tabled. His Termies and 2+ save characters broke my back, and I had nothing to counter them as they came up on a flank where I could not get my AP 2 weaponry into play. So much for playing a themed balanced army with the new codex.

thats why I'm now taking a chainfist on my lord instead of the daemon weapon, AP4 and instant death on a 6 just does not cut it.

as to the wargear for non-cults,

I'd be tempted to roll them into one (I know its not entirely fair but space) leave it for undivided and make it longer (like 7-10 options)

their could be a lot of overlap, for example:

siege engineers/ Ambush specialists: excel at making use of battlefield to maximize defensive positions: Grants stealth 2ppm

Thunder hammers: 9ppm Because IW really should get them

Gospels of the dark gods (I dunno a leadership buff/debuff?)

even throw in humble options like melta bombs, allowing unit wide demolitions.

Wolfshade

10-10-2012, 04:47 AM

I think point four millimeters counts as "a little." ;)

Sounds like engineer talk to me :o

Learn2Eel

10-11-2012, 03:36 AM

First game with the codex today.
1500 points, Mission 5 (two primary objectives), 1st deployment, I went first.
I tabled my opponent by the end of turn 3.

It's just one game, but I am very happy.
Also got to use my Helldrake - in combination with Enfeeble from a sorcerer lord, it instant-deathed 7 Ork Nobs after first killing three space marines and a sergeant with a vector strike. Afterwards, it killed five space marines, including multiple special/heavy weapons and sergeants.
Nasty, nasty. This thing will absolutely ream non-mech non-TEQ armies (which are abundant in 6th).

First game ever using Obliterators, very happy. First game using Bikers too, they really did their job as a very cheap and nasty flanking unit. I also used that Nurgle daemon prince with wings, power Armour and the black mace. I forgot all about the toughness tests thing, but it still killed a kitted out Captain, swept an entire Ork boys horde, etc.

Overall, this codex seems fine to me. One game isn't really indicative but it is definitely far improved over the previous codex.