Space Marines - Why the Hate?

[ElectricPaladin]

This thread does what it says on the tin: why the hate?

The context is important here.

For one thing, I have recently started a Blood Ravens army, using the vanilla Marines codex as my basis (I don't think they need a codex of their own, but if the rumors are true, I really hope they get a banner in the new Marines codex). When I tell people that my previous armies are Tau and Blood Ravens, I tend to get a negative reaction, as though I've somehow given up on playing an army that is unique, cool, and fair in order to be competitive.

The thing is, most of the Marines chapters seem to have pretty cool stories, and power armor can be fun to paint, with all its little bits and bobs and decorations.

Secondly, I just played my first two games with my new army, and it was an interesting experience. I don't feel like my new models are "easy-button" or anything like that. In fact, in some ways they were extremely challenging, and not just because they were new. Without a strong focus on any one thing, the way Orks and Tyranids focus on assault, Blood Angels focus on maneuverability, or Imperial Guard and Tau focus on shooting, I had to be very careful and tactical in order to achieve anything. The unusually high durability of my troops was actually a pretty thin compensation for the lack of specialization. My dudes needed to be tough, because I didn't have a ton of them, they didn't drop out of the sky, they have mediocre strength weapons, and they don't kill everything in assault.

Based on my experiences, I have to wonder... where's the hate from? Why do people seem to dislike the Marines as a faction?

[Kyban]

Too many people play them, plain and simple. Most players like to see others start a new army in something other than marines, once you've played them for a little while I'm sure they'll just accept that and as a player you won't receive any more stigma for it but marines in general are viewed as too common and uniform where people like to see a variety of armies across the board from them. At least, that's my impression.

[inquisitorsog]

This thread does what it says on the tin: why the hate?
...as though I've somehow given up on playing an army that is unique, cool, and fair in order to be competitive.
....
Based on my experiences, I have to wonder... where's the hate from? Why do people seem to dislike the Marines as a faction?

Because they are rammed down our collective throat to the extent that they become tedious. There's also a perception that the space marine flavors get all the love from GW, hence represent the "lazy" choice, so you partly answered your own question.

[Deadlift]

I think the hate also stems from xeno players to some extent.

You know the type, whine and moan constantly that the imperium based armies, especially marines in all their guise are constantly under the GW limelight. That their more unique army of whatever is being left behind. And to be fair they would have a point. But then GW has always said that the imperium is the focus of 40k lore.
Throw FW into the mix and you can understand why the non marine and imperial guard players feel a little left out. Some, not all xeno players then tend to vent their fury at the marine enthusiasts.

Myself, I love space marines in all their colours. For me the only problem I have is how to bloody choose what chapter to choose next.

Oh and they are bloody popular aren't they, it's a rolling stone really, space marines sell, so GW is quite focused on them and they get nice updates and new models, which in turn sells even more models, rinse and repeat.

[Kyban]

I just solve it by having multiple armies!

[Deadlift]

With respect to the author of this quote. His statement is exactly what I ment in reply to your question ElectricPaladin. The xeno enthusiast who is fed up with GW seemingly concentrating on power armour. Fairly enough too in some respects. I hope GW addresses the balance next year with Tau and Eldar releases.

No offence intended to you inquisitorsog. Just using your quote as an example :)


Because they are rammed down our collective throat to the extent that they become tedious. There's also a perception that the space marine flavors get all the love from GW, hence represent the "lazy" choice, so you partly answered your own question.

[imperialpower]

They are very common and have a lot of powerfull characters and of course are a powerfull army since they are supposed to be super humans after all but I think the main hate is the attention they get from GW if you compare the fact that a lot of the chapters have their own codex and special rules, models ect then compare that to Eldar just as a comparison who have one codex even though there are different Craftworlds to choose from. Space marines are basicly GW special child that they pay more attention to and as a bussiness they should and do capitalise on the fact that they are so popular.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

People can say what they want. The real reason is that it's cool to hate the cool things. Let people play what they want, if someone likes it and aren't painting Tzeentch Flamers to go in an "All Khorne Army" (Like I've seen in the past) then it's good to go by my count.

[ElectricPaladin]

I mean, contemplating the neglect my Tau have suffered through the years, I see where they might be coming from. All the same, I really don't think anything is wrong with the Marines as they stand. For all that I love what the Tau and Blood Angels are supposed to be, the fact is that of all the armies I play right now my Marines are the only army that actually is what it's supposed to be.

Perhaps that's a symptom of the problem? Or is it just that this is where we are in the release cycle?

[Anggul]

Presumably because depending on the writer they can range anywhere from very strong but with some weaknesses and are amazing in some situations and not so much in others (as they should be) to absolutely-ridiculous-they-could-never-pull-that-off-stupid. The latter is usually Ward making even the Marine fans rage at the silliness.

I don't know about everyone else but I don't like it when a faction which I like is portrayed as the best thing ever and smashing everything else. It's boring and I often know how that encounter would really go. Fair enough in some situations some factiosn excel and annihilate, but with Marines that seems to be almost every situation, even those in which their role as a low-numbers elite strike force would see them not much better than most and probably killed.

I'll put it this way: If, in the next Eldar codex, the writer wrote a story about an Eldar strike force swarming across a battlefield in a straight line toward the enemy force, and they took next to no casualties and won in a glorious fashion... I would say, despite my favour for the Eldar, that it was stupid, didn't fit their fluff in any way, and doesn't make sense at all. If you like something and it's blown out of proportion or does something it's incapable of then it's no longer the thing you liked. If, on the other hand, those Eldar conducted surgical precision strikes with excellent timing (some might say they knew what was going to happen before it happened, wink wink) and took minimal casualties and succeeded in crippling the enemy force so that what was left could be swept away with one final focussed assault, then I would think: 'This is an excellent representation of the strengths of the Eldar.' Similarly, if a planet was under attack and a Space Marine Chapter arrived, collaborated with the Imperial Navy present to clear a path for a boarding run, and a couple of important enemy ships were successfully boarded via boarding torpedo, resulting in close-quarters fighting aboard the corridors of a ship where the tough, strong, elite space marines would be in their prime in a combat zone which, while brutal, the enemy hasn't the room or co-ordination to bring their numbers to bear, and not the individual personnel strength to defeat the Marines, crucial targets were neutralised and the ship was taken, allowing the strike cruisers and imperial navy to defeat the opposing navy, then I would think: 'This is an excellent representation of the strengths of the Space Marines.'

Rather than: 'They ran into battle and somehow fought their way through the enemy without just being shelled, bombed, and all manner of other easily deployable (and very much capable of blowing away even a marine) weapons because they are the bestest and can punch everyone and win.'

[Mr.Pickelz]

From what i see and hear, it's really an issue of "over saturation" with space marine rules and stat lines. if there was a chapter/book that held different stat lines and gave a more dynamic approach to the space marine identity, then people would at least accept it as something other then color selection. Also to point out, most of the marine books; Blood Angels; Black Templars; And Dark Angels, still pull from the same organizational structure of the Codex Astartes. Therefore, they could be tied into the main Space Marine codex which (as one would argue) save time and money for more models or updates to models in other (Xenos) ranges. Out of the Adeptus Astartes section, of the forces of the Imperium, Space Wolves, Grey Knights(and/or inquistion), and Black Templars are the only "chapters" which do not fully utilize the Codex Astartes. Sure Dark Angels and Blood Angels have special rules and/or units, but their still tied to the main codex astartes. It would be simple to place a page or two of rules indexes, that would state which sub-set(s) of rules that you would get if your playing such and such army, and have the special units like the Blood Angel Death Company's page have a bold line stating something like "this unit can only be taken within a Blood Angels army that contains..." and you would be fine. A few more pages would save a book and room on a release schedule.

One would argue, that Because Space Wolves and Black Templars both approach the organization and unit type differently (aka Long Fangs, Crusader Squads, etc...) that the Armies' internal balance requires enough attention to warrant the separation from the main "Codex: Space Marines". The Grey Knights operate within and under the watchful eye of the inquisition and therefore are outside the standards of the Adeptus Astartes.

[White Tiger88]

Its not that people HATE SPACEMARINES its that they hate ULTRAMARINES Fluff wise they are stoic and pretty much the *** holes of the spacemarine legions.........And till now they where the poster boys of the game so every 10 year old kid had to have a blue army. However as the Horus Heresy books shows WHY Ultramarines are worse then the traitor legions i think the amount of marine players will hopefully drop........

[Wildeybeast]

I think it's largely because it's 'cool' to hate them. They are the Man Utd of the 40K universe - they always dominate the game. No one hates Tau because they aren't a threat, it would be like kicking a puppy. But SM are easy to hate - loads of people play them, they get more support from GW than any other army in any system, they always have a competitive codex, they are th poster boys, they seem to lack 'character and uniqueness' because so many people paint them blue on the box etc etc. People just don't like things being better than the thing they like.

[eldargal]

Marine hate is silly, but understandable. Even I, who do not hate Marines, do get sick of Marine release after Marine release from FW and the constant Marine fell atio we get from BL where every other enemy come out looking like complete twits. If your foes are weak and/or incompetent beating them isn't much of an achievement. But I digress...

Marines are popular, there is a demand for the product, GW would be silly not to meet this demand. High sales volume Marine kits help offset the longer return on investment scale for non Marine kits, in effect subsidising them to some extent. The problem is when meeting this demand is perceived as coming at the expense of non-Marine armies, for a while there it seemed like this was so with every other codex being Marines and then with a company named after an eldar Craftworld producing mostly Marine books it grates after a while.


Its not that people HATE SPACEMARINES its that they hate ULTRAMARINES Fluff wise they are stoic and pretty much the *** holes of the spacemarine legions.........And till now they where the poster boys of the game so every 10 year old kid had to have a blue army. However as the Horus Heresy books shows WHY Ultramarines are worse then the traitor legions i think the amount of marine players will hopefully drop........
This is entirely wrong. People do hate Ultramarines, but just as many people hate Marines in general. Ultramarines are the Marines it is cool for Marine players to hate because they are better than your emo vampire goths and space vikings because they get the job done withouth gimmicks.
The Ultramarines were not worse than the Traitor legions, thati s an hilarious stupid comment. Horus went to considerable effort to keep them away from Terra for as long as possible because he felt the UM Legion was the most dangerous threat to his own forces after the massacre at Isstvan V diminished the rest of the Loyalist legions considerably. I really wish people wouldn't spout this kind of nonsense.

[BrotherRolo]

Regular Space Marines are the exception in Wichita. Lots of xenos, Grey Knights and Space Pups. I'd like to see Blood Ravens, of only to see some of the lesser used Legions.

[Capt Forsythe]

I think the hate also stems from xeno players to some extent.

You know the type, whine and moan constantly that the imperium based armies, especially marines in all their guise are constantly under the GW limelight. That their more unique army of whatever is being left behind. And to be fair they would have a point. But then GW has always said that the imperium is the focus of 40k lore.
Throw FW into the mix and you can understand why the non marine and imperial guard players feel a little left out. Some, not all xeno players then tend to vent their fury at the marine enthusiasts.

Myself, I love space marines in all their colours. For me the only problem I have is how to bloody choose what chapter to choose next.

Oh and they are bloody popular aren't they, it's a rolling stone really, space marines sell, so GW is quite focused on them and they get nice updates and new models, which in turn sells even more models, rinse and repeat.

Blame the Xenos players, really? As a self defined Marine enthusiast, please take your biased opinion on what Xenos players think and go pineapple yourself.

The reality is that ANY army becomes popular and sells well when the codex is unrestrained by reasonable game design. Do you think 7th ed Fantasy Chaos Daemons sold well? Do you think Necrons sell well now? Those are neither Marine codices, but yet they sold great! Sadly, what sells to a lot of gamers is only what wins. And when Marine codices contain the bulk of the unrestrained rules, they are the codecies that win, and that is what sells.

If this is bizarro 40k world and I replace all the units in Grey Knights Codex with Eldar names and models but leave the rules intact, what do you think would happen?

[ElectricPaladin]

Blame the Xenos players, really? As a self defined Marine enthusiast, please take your biased opinion on what Xenos players think and go pineapple yourself.

The reality is that ANY army becomes popular and sells well when the codex is unrestrained by reasonable game design. Do you think 7th ed Fantasy Chaos Daemons sold well? Do you think Necrons sell well now? Those are neither Marine codices, but yet they sold great! Sadly, what sells to a lot of gamers is only what wins. And when Marine codices contain the bulk of the unrestrained rules, they are the codecies that win, and that is what sells.

If this is bizarro 40k world and I replace all the units in Grey Knights Codex with Eldar names and models but leave the rules intact, what do you think would happen?

Here's the thing - I don't think the Space Marines codex is poorly written. I've had a couple of great games with it. I've needed to play tactically and focus on maneuvering, arranging for synergies. The only thing drawing me towards my codex marines project and away from my other armies is that my Blood Angels no longer do what I really enjoyed (deep strike and assault) as effectively as they used to - but other, totally valid and fluffy builds, still work fine - and the Tau codex don't really do anything the way it was designed to, and haven't for longer than I've been a wargamer.

I guess you could argue that I just really suck at this game, but that doesn't seem likely. I've been playing for more than a year now, and I've got a good grasp of the rules and the tactical basics. What are the problems with the actual codex Marines codex?

[Durendin]

In the background material Space Marines are mythical entities which most imperial citizens don't even believe exist. However from a table-top perspective you'd think that all warfare in the 41st Mil consisted of Imperial Marine chapters knocking the crap out of each other or having lots of training exercises!

Personally I don't blame Games Workshop, it's all our fault as we're the ones fueling demand. If customers were throwing the same volume of cash at Tau then that's what they'd supply.

[ElectricPaladin]

In the background material Space Marines are mythical entities which most imperial citizens don't even believe exist. However from a table-top perspective you'd think that all warfare in the 41st Mil consisted of Imperial Marine chapters knocking the crap out of each other or having lots of training exercises!

Personally I don't blame Games Workshop, it's all our fault as we're the ones fueling demand. If customers were throwing the same volume of cash at Tau then that's what they'd supply.

Don't blame me - all of my space marines are made out of spare models I got in trade or for free and a handful of bits bought on eBay. Except for that one predator I bought.

[DarkLink]

My vote's always been for one SM mega-codex, with the exception of CSM and Grey Knights (seriously, I couldn't figure out how to fit GKs into the same book even if I tried, about the only thing they have in common is power armor and a few vehicles, everything else is completely unique). But even Space Wolves aren't that hard to incorporate if you're clever with unit entries and Chapter Tactics.

[Kyban]

My vote's always been for one SM mega-codex, with the exception of CSM and Grey Knights (seriously, I couldn't figure out how to fit GKs into the same book even if I tried, about the only thing they have in common is power armor and a few vehicles, everything else is completely unique). But even Space Wolves aren't that hard to incorporate if you're clever with unit entries and Chapter Tactics.

It might be nice but GW has never been particularly eloquent with their rules.

[Deadlift]

Blame the Xenos players, really? As a self defined Marine enthusiast, please take your biased opinion on what Xenos players think and go pineapple yourself.

The reality is that ANY army becomes popular and sells well when the codex is unrestrained by reasonable game design. Do you think 7th ed Fantasy Chaos Daemons sold well? Do you think Necrons sell well now? Those are neither Marine codices, but yet they sold great! Sadly, what sells to a lot of gamers is only what wins. And when Marine codices contain the bulk of the unrestrained rules, they are the codecies that win, and that is what sells.

If this is bizarro 40k world and I replace all the units in Grey Knights Codex with Eldar names and models but leave the rules intact, what do you think would happen?

Ahh there we have it, here is the self opinionated tit of the thread, go back and actually read my quote and you will see that I said the xeno player has a point with being sick of the prevalence of Space Marines.

You have just made a perfect example of what this thread is about. Well done you. If you knew me well enough from my activity on the forums, you would know I love many xeno armies, Tau, Necrons, Eldar and Orks are all armies I have and played. As for your pineapple quip. I find posters who happily make insults behind the safety of their keyboards have some inferiority complex in the real world. Happily I don't.

Just in case you want to go over what I wrote in all its entirety and not just take my 1st sentence out of context. Here you go.

Originally Posted by Deadlift
I think the hate also stems from xeno players to some extent.

You know the type, whine and moan constantly that the imperium based armies, especially marines in all their guise are constantly under the GW limelight. That their more unique army of whatever is being left behind. And to be fair they would have a point. But then GW has always said that the imperium is the focus of 40k lore.
Throw FW into the mix and you can understand why the non marine and imperial guard players feel a little left out. Some, not all xeno players then tend to vent their fury at the marine enthusiasts.

Myself, I love space marines in all their colours. For me the only problem I have is how to bloody choose what chapter to choose next.

Oh and they are bloody popular aren't they, it's a rolling stone really, space marines sell, so GW is quite focused on them and they get nice updates and new models, which in turn sells even more models, rinse and repeat.

[White Tiger88]

This is entirely wrong. People do hate Ultramarines, but just as many people hate Marines in general. Ultramarines are the Marines it is cool for Marine players to hate because they are better than your emo vampire goths and space vikings because they get the job done withouth gimmicks.
The Ultramarines were not worse than the Traitor legions, thati s an hilarious stupid comment. Horus went to considerable effort to keep them away from Terra for as long as possible because he felt the UM Legion was the most dangerous threat to his own forces after the massacre at Isstvan V diminished the rest of the Loyalist legions considerably. I really wish people wouldn't spout this kind of nonsense.

Really emo Vampires? Blood Angel's are the most Noble of the marine chapters (Well they where at least during the heresy...) The Ultramarine's use lots of gimmicks since they are slowly (Via the fluff) being shown to be slightly underhanded and only really care about ultramar and not the imperium as a whole. Really? Ultramarine's the most dangerous legion? thats pretty funny they had the most soldiers due to helping wipe out two other legions primarchs, yet the word bearers still managed to cause a pretty large toll of damage on them with half there numbers! (i seem to remember Gulliman him self getting owned by Kor Phaeron not really a threat there...) Also considering they sat back in ultramar pulling loyalist forces there instead of terra seems kinda fishy to me.... (Ah Gulliman the Usurper.....)

[Capt Forsythe]

Ahh there we have it, here is the self opinionated tit of the thread, go back and actually read my quote and you will see that I said the xeno player has a point with being sick of the prevalence of Space Marines.

You have just made a perfect example of what this thread is about. Well done you. If you knew me well enough from my activity on the forums, you would know I love many xeno armies, Tau, Necrons, Eldar and Orks are all armies I have and played. As for your pineapple quip. I find posters who happily make insults behind the safety of their keyboards have some inferiority complex in the real world. Happily I don't.

Just in case you want to go over what I wrote in all its entirety and not just take my 1st sentence out of context. Here you go.

Originally Posted by Deadlift
I think the hate also stems from xeno players to some extent.

You know the type, whine and moan constantly that the imperium based armies, especially marines in all their guise are constantly under the GW limelight. That their more unique army of whatever is being left behind. And to be fair they would have a point. But then GW has always said that the imperium is the focus of 40k lore.
Throw FW into the mix and you can understand why the non marine and imperial guard players feel a little left out. Some, not all xeno players then tend to vent their fury at the marine enthusiasts.

Myself, I love space marines in all their colours. For me the only problem I have is how to bloody choose what chapter to choose next.

Oh and they are bloody popular aren't they, it's a rolling stone really, space marines sell, so GW is quite focused on them and they get nice updates and new models, which in turn sells even more models, rinse and repeat.

I read both your posts, and you couldn't be more obnoxious. So it's a ok for you to make assumptions about how other people think, and then it's still my fault when I call you on your chastizing of other players. Of course I AM THE TIT because I DIDNT make assumptions about YOU. Of course, how could I be so foolish?!

I never said ANYTHING about whether you enjoyed playing Xenos, because I know it's OK to like ALL the Armies. Guess what Mr. Highchair, I love all Space Marine armies and I play exclusively Xenos armies with the sole exception of a 3rd edition Daemonhunters/Witchhunters army which will now remain shelved for the foreseeable future.

But, of course, I injured your pride and it makes you feel like my response is some prime example of your point. Well guess what, chief: It isn't. Let's have example time!

Example 1: You're a god awful person, but since you have to rely on the government I understand, but not all people that rely on the government are god awful people.

You see how that second and third parts of that statement are irrelevant? I mean boy I'm so glad you understand, so I don't have to be upset that you called me a god awful person, because you understand. Get it?

But I'm sure glad you let me know I have such an inferiority complex, I mean, really, it's a relief. I mean, you let me know if I didn't take the time to belittle my attackers with meaningless assumptions as to their character in order to make myself feel better...heyyyy waaaaaait a minute.....

But of course, I'm the unreasonable one here.

[Capt Forsythe]

Here's the thing - I don't think the Space Marines codex is poorly written. I've had a couple of great games with it. I've needed to play tactically and focus on maneuvering, arranging for synergies. The only thing drawing me towards my codex marines project and away from my other armies is that my Blood Angels no longer do what I really enjoyed (deep strike and assault) as effectively as they used to - but other, totally valid and fluffy builds, still work fine - and the Tau codex don't really do anything the way it was designed to, and haven't for longer than I've been a wargamer.

I guess you could argue that I just really suck at this game, but that doesn't seem likely. I've been playing for more than a year now, and I've got a good grasp of the rules and the tactical basics. What are the problems with the actual codex Marines codex?

The bulk of unrestrained rules are not in Codex: SM. In fact, I agree that that is a good example of restrained game design. If your original post is just concerning the Ultramarines and the chapters in C:SM, then I misunderstood your original query. The examples of unrestrained rules in Space Marines codices comes more from the C:BA C:GK codices, and it a lesser extent the C:SW (debatable), but when viewed from the outside, they are all just Imperial Loyalist Power Armors, and since each one of those codices has had its own individual heyday and those periods of Space Marine dominance on the tabletop have stretched over the past few years, it leaves non Space Marines players wanting an opportunity to take back some 40k real estate.

Current Necrons and Imperial guard aside (as its heyday continues even now), the last dominant non-Imperial codex was in 2008, the last codex of 4th edition with the Orks, and even their reign was brief by comparison. And the current domination of the Necrons is not fully embraced by a good amount of players as it shows some fairly egregious lack of restraint as well. In fact, that codex pretended to be WELL DONE, then showed its true colors at the release of 6th. And because of its egregiousness, it gets the same hate as the Marines. In fact, having a game designer write 5th edition rules FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of taking advantage of 6th edition changes is such a THAT GUY think to do, that I had to shelve my 5th edition Necrons.

I hold no grudge against a General of one of those armies. More power too em, when I can manage a win against the unrestrained armies I enjoy that victory exponentially more than beating a down and out army. But for sure there are a lot of people you will meet at the club that will take equal satisfaction in any win.

But those people need to understand that when you start dropping your psyflemen and paladins on the table, your ap 1 str 7 armorbane 10 pt warcythes, your flying librarian dreadnaughts, and 36 inch disembarking transports on the table, that you will get some justifiable sighs of frustration, and you shouldn't look down upon them for doing so.

Yes, there is a current of Anti-Matt Ward here. But credit where credit is due: The C:SM is a great codex (minus the fluff).

[ElectricPaladin]

The bulk of unrestrained rules are not in Codex: SM. In fact, I agree that that is a good example of restrained game design. If your original post is just concerning the Ultramarines and the chapters in C:SM, then I misunderstood your original query...

Ah... a lot of this is making more sense now.

Yes, I agree that there is a lot wrong with the Imperial Guard codex. I've known that every since a conversation in which a friend newly introduced to 40k and the Guard informed me that his codex could be used to build an army capable of shooting or close combat or wall of tanks and reserves manipulation and fast-moving fliers and deep striking and outflanking. Oh, and he could easily build an army where the greater part of his shooting was AP 2.

I actually started avoiding games with him, which hurt because he was a good guy.

I've never had the experience that my Blood Angels were over-powered, but that's probably because I always preferred the Descent of Angels angle of the codex over the fast-moving rhinos and razorbacks angle - as I've said before, part of why I'm enjoying my Space Marines over my Blood Angels (not to mention my poor Tau) is that I can play what I like (highly mobile elite force of bad*ss soldiers backed up by cool tanks) and have it work, rather than playing what I like and discovering that it's sub-optimal, and actually kind of weak.

It's interesting. Sometimes the Warhammer 40k community reminds me of the kink community. Doms and subs will say some really terrible things about each other, manipulate and hurt each other, somehow forgetting that when it comes down to it, they need each other to really enjoy their... hobby.

Yeah, the comparison breaks apart eventually.

That said, if the problem is more Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Imperial Guard, than it is codex Marines, then I understand the situation a little better - and I feel less bad about my new choice of army.

And to think, I almost started Grey Knights (well, I would have painted them as Exorcists) instead...

[eldargal]

And the Emperor was nearly choked to death by an ork, what's your point? Read the background and try not to interpret everythig through a fanboi prism of UM hate. Calth was basically a giant ambush where the UM fleet was disabled and attacked by an operation WB fleet and they eventually took control of Calths planetary defenses and the wholw thing was orchestrated because Horus new Guilliman would NOT turn traitor. Despite that ignorant twits still tryand make Guilliman out to be a of dubious loyalty despite him being the one who ultimatley held the IoM together.

You're also missing the part where Phaeron screwed up by not killing Guilliman right away and Guilliman ripped out his primary heart. :rolleyes:

Really emo Vampires? Blood Angel's are the most Noble of the marine chapters (Well they where at least during the heresy...) The Ultramarine's use lots of gimmicks since they are slowly (Via the fluff) being shown to be slightly underhanded and only really care about ultramar and not the imperium as a whole. Really? Ultramarine's the most dangerous legion? thats pretty funny they had the most soldiers due to helping wipe out two other legions primarchs, yet the word bearers still managed to cause a pretty large toll of damage on them with half there numbers! (i seem to remember Gulliman him self getting owned by Kor Phaeron not really a threat there...) Also considering they sat back in ultramar pulling loyalist forces there instead of terra seems kinda fishy to me.... (Ah Gulliman the Usurper.....)

[Learn2Eel]

As much as I make jokes about him, Matt Ward actually designed a very well balanced codex in 5th Edition Space Marines. There are lots of competitive options in that codex and you can see several entirely different army lists. Fluffy lists are also available in abundance. It has great internal balance for the most part and the real strength of it is in utility IMO. There are a few lists that tick you off, i.e. Vulkan lists with 9 Land Speeders. In that sense, I don't think Codex: Space Marines is popular because of the rules. They are popular because they appeal to almost everyone; I don't like most of the codex, but I can't wait to eventually (maybe a few years down the track when they are re-released) start a themed Salamanders army. Most people have "that" chapter they want to do.

Grey Knights are the complete opposite. The most common players of Grey Knights (that I've seen, this may not apply to all stores) tend to be those interested in winning games because of the ridiculous combinations you can make out of the codex. Purifier spam army lists are the absolute king of WAAC-bullplop IMO. There's nothing fluffy about them at all, and they are so ridiculously powerful that it almost makes you wonder why you would ever pay for Strike Squads instead (seriously). And those Coteaz lists? As much as it is cool to make a themed Inquisition force, most people go the opposite way and do min/maxed spam units in Psybolt Razorbacks, putting down an incredibly punishing amount of shots. You get better weapons than standard Space Marines for cheaper, your basic troops are severely under-costed for what they do (though their main advantage has been toned back with the change to rapid fire rules) and you also get the most horrendously points-effective tank-hunter in the game. The internal balance of the codex is shoddy as hell and more often than not you get a sense of being punished if you try to take themed, non-WAAC lists.
However, a big reason why people do play them - and the reason I started them myself - is the aesthetics of the army. Their design and background are awesome. Also, as much as there is a lot of potential for cheese lists, you can still make standard army lists that are hardly OP - they are balanced, and can be difficult to use if you don't appreciate that you pay the points for their power.

With Codex: Space Marines, you have a tactically-adaptible force with great utility that can be catered to combat most army lists in the meta. However, you pay the points for your superior infantry, and tactical depth is still required to play this force well.
Enter Codex: Grey Knights, and you can make armies that out-perform other codexes' equivalents both more efficiently and at a cheaper cost. You are also home to some of the worst WAAC army lists in the game. Your army, literally, can be picked up by a young child new to the game and beat skilled opponents simply because their codex is horribly imbalanced in some respects.

In reality, I think the stem of most people's hate for Space Marines in general comes from the fact that they have a greater potential for WAAC lists that are unfair to face against at a local level. They tend to be simpler in design and can be easily picked up by inexperienced players. Also, because of the way they are portrayed in the fluff, they come off as being the real bogey-men of the 40K universe. Xenos players generally have to deal with most of their armies' background revolving around interactions with the Imperium, or having to read about their own army getting beaten.

Personally, I don't mind Space Marines at all. I prefer Xenos/Chaos armies (at the moment, I have Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights and elements to start Chaos Daemons, Necrons and Salamanders) and generally play armies for their aesthetics, not their rules. That is why I abruptly stopped playing with my Grey Knights. I love the models, but I get sick of people calling me a d-bag because I play them, or an idiot for not running the 'competitive' Grey Knights. Also, I was getting annoyed with how I never really had to think about what I was doing in some games and could easily beat some opponents. I've even contemplated selling them off, though I am re-considering and thinking about using them as allied detachments, or expanding them with different units to run less stand off-ish army lists.

Also, on Necrons, I know they are currently one of the top tournament armies in regards to their flyer spam lists, but really, I see Necrons as pretty well balanced codex in a lot of cases. Whilst shooting is indeed king in 6th, something Necrons specialize in, they are still horrible in combat for the most part. A funny example, though not exactly a great one, is when I recently saw Imotekh in a challenge with an opponent's Imotekh who had the assistance of 10 Necron Immortals. Despite the re-rolls, the lone Imotekh eventually managed to kill the other Imotekh and, amazingly, succeed in a sweeping advance. All it takes is for a fast flanking unit, like a Daemon Prince, to crash into a unit, win combat and for the Necrons to fail their leadership for an entire unit to be destroyed. Also, Necrons aren't really that crash hot at long-range shooting. They are fast moving, but they will be out-gunned at long range by both Tau and Imperial Guard usually. They get durable firepower cheaply, but if you don't spam such units, you can still make competitive lists that aren't over-powered. Also, before anyone says I'm playing a 'flavour of the month' army, I want them to ally with my Thousand Sons because of the Egyptian theme. Hence why my Necron Overlord will be an awesome general with his own background.

Ultimately, I think the hate for OP armies comes from what those players do with those codices, not necessarily the codex itself. Players interested in WAAC will always find the new spam list to play. Players interested in competitive play, but not to that degree, will find their own flavour and make it work. As much as people might complain about the lack of competitive Xenos armies by comparison to Marines, the fact is that an old Ork codex is still around the top of the tournament scene.

[Deadlift]

I read both your posts, and you couldn't be more obnoxious. So it's a ok for you to make assumptions about how other people think, and then it's still my fault when I call you on your chastizing of other players. Of course I AM THE TIT because I DIDNT make assumptions about YOU. Of course, how could I be so foolish?!

I never said ANYTHING about whether you enjoyed playing Xenos, because I know it's OK to like ALL the Armies. Guess what Mr. Highchair, I love all Space Marine armies and I play exclusively Xenos armies with the sole exception of a 3rd edition Daemonhunters/Witchhunters army which will now remain shelved for the foreseeable future.

But, of course, I injured your pride and it makes you feel like my response is some prime example of your point. Well guess what, chief: It isn't. Let's have example time!

Example 1: You're a god awful person, but since you have to rely on the government I understand, but not all people that rely on the government are god awful people.

You see how that second and third parts of that statement are irrelevant? I mean boy I'm so glad you understand, so I don't have to be upset that you called me a god awful person, because you understand. Get it?

But I'm sure glad you let me know I have such an inferiority complex, I mean, really, it's a relief. I mean, you let me know if I didn't take the time to belittle my attackers with meaningless assumptions as to their character in order to make myself feel better...heyyyy waaaaaait a minute.....

But of course, I'm the unreasonable one here.


Obnoxious ? **** me Pot, Kettle, Black.
You became unreasonable when you made it personal, but I am a big boy and really don't mind.
I took the bait, shouldn't have.
You have made your point and I have made mine.

[DarkLink]

Purifier spam army lists are the absolute king of WAAC-bullplop IMO. There's nothing fluffy about them at all, and they are so ridiculously powerful that it almost makes you wonder why you would ever pay for Strike Squads instead (seriously). And those Coteaz lists? As much as it is cool to make a themed Inquisition force, most people go the opposite way and do min/maxed spam units in Psybolt Razorbacks, putting down an incredibly punishing amount of shots.

5th ed called. It wants its overrated army builds back.

[Learn2Eel]

5th ed called. It wants its overrated army builds back.

I'm still in 5th Edition mode with some of my posts haha, I'm actually not too clued up on what tournament lists still do well. I was under the impression Purifier-spam and Coteaz/Razorspam lists are still relevant, although I am aware of the daemonic flying circus and the night scythe spam lists.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

There isn't enough Kharn in this thread, and that's wrong, because Kharn is a pretty swell guy.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2012/01/LARGE-KHARN.jpg

I have now corrected the lack of Kharn. Carry on. :D

[DarkDesigner]

30 years on and Kharn is still rocking an 80s mullet. Not that I'd tell him.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Yeah, but he looks FABULOUS!

[DarkDesigner]

So tempted to paint a glam rocker Kharn now...

By the way, on topic. I'm avowedly a non-Marine player, I don't hate marine players although I do tire of going into Games Workshops and seeing two marine armies facing off. I don't really play that much but I imagine the lack of variety would get boring for the marine players more than anything else.

I guess if I were to dredge up reasons it would also be the fact that different flavours of Space Marine get different codices, even the Black Templars who aren't even a 1st Founding, while Chaos Marines have to share. That said, I don't think there would be enough variety to make separate CSM armies, except that sharing one makes them look more cohesive a force than they are (in my mind anyway).

So I'm more on the side of one über-codex for space marines, with flavours bought as a 'mark' in the same way as fealty to a Chaos God. My favourite SM codex was the one that allowed you to pick major and minor boons / faults for no other reason than the variety it allowed. Anyone else remember that one? Bring it back I say.

[Deadlift]

There isn't enough Kharn in this thread, and that's wrong, because Kharn is a pretty swell guy.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2012/01/LARGE-KHARN.jpg

I have now corrected the lack of Kharn. Carry on. :D

See what you did there TDA, you make me want to do world eaters now :).

[eldargal]

I like his wolftail earrings, very chic.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

SO MUCH BLOOD! TOO MUCH TO DRINK!

I've been playing with the World Eater soundboard. :p

To be fair, Kharn is also an actual OFFICIAL Viking, he's listed as being from that area. So yeah, he couldn't be more made of win if he tried.

[Anggul]

It should probably be mentioned that hardly anyone hates the rules of Codex: Space Marines. It's the Grey Knights and Space Wolves that people hate rules-wise. It's the abundance of rubbish, bolter-wanking fluff that makes people dislike Space Marines. You could say it's not the Space Marines that people hate, but the writers who make them appear far more powerful than they actually are and make everyone they battle suddenly struck with a bout of idiocy and fluff-death. I cite the end of the (otherwise brilliant) Night Lords trilogy as an example. Oh, also that part where Talos beats a Callidus assassin. That was stupid.

[White Tiger88]

And the Emperor was nearly choked to death by an ork, what's your point? Read the background and try not to interpret everythig through a fanboi prism of UM hate. Calth was basically a giant ambush where the UM fleet was disabled and attacked by an operation WB fleet and they eventually took control of Calths planetary defenses and the wholw thing was orchestrated because Horus new Guilliman would NOT turn traitor. Despite that ignorant twits still tryand make Guilliman out to be a of dubious loyalty despite him being the one who ultimatley held the IoM together.

You're also missing the part where Phaeron screwed up by not killing Guilliman right away and Guilliman ripped out his primary heart. :rolleyes:

You only need one hear to live....Spacemarine style. I suggest you read the fluff again too and look at it from the Lion's point of view, Seems to me he got it right with the whole "Smurf boy wants to take over after all is said and done" thing. Plus a legion that kept a fleet after there own Primarchs codex said to disband it hmmm ya not odd.....


It should probably be mentioned that hardly anyone hates the rules of Codex: Space Marines. It's the Grey Knights and Space Wolves that people hate rules-wise. It's the abundance of rubbish, bolter-wanking fluff that makes people dislike Space Marines. You could say it's not the Space Marines that people hate, but the writers who make them appear far more powerful than they actually are and make everyone they battle suddenly struck with a bout of idiocy and fluff-death. I cite the end of the (otherwise brilliant) Night Lords trilogy as an example. Oh, also that part where Talos beats a Callidus assassin. That was stupid.

Odd i don't have a problem with the space puppy's i find its the two wound terminator spam that tends to eat face..... (Stupid Ward Knights)

[eldargal]

Because Johnson was such a good judge of character, it isn't like he gave a bunch of siege engines to a fully fledged traitor primarch without realising it or anything:rolleyes:

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Herp derp derp

[Learn2Eel]

Eh, I still laugh how Roboute said he killed Alpharius.
"Are you sure you killed Alpharius?"
"Yes."
"Which Alpharius?"
"Grrrrr....."

[DarkLink]

I'm still in 5th Edition mode with some of my posts haha, I'm actually not too clued up on what tournament lists still do well. I was under the impression Purifier-spam and Coteaz/Razorspam lists are still relevant, although I am aware of the daemonic flying circus and the night scythe spam lists.

You'd be surprised. There's a huge range of viable options, now. Flying circuses are notorious because the flyer rules are terribly thought out, but they're not actually super common and they're more annoying than OP because flyers have some weaknesses. Unfortunately, the Chaos codex seems to indicate GW doesn't understand how stupid the flyer rules are, because they sure didn't include a lot of means of dealing with flyers like they should have, but whatever. I've been pretty impressed with how well 6th ed has opened up the playing field, with the sole exception of the opportunity for flyer spam. In particular, light vehicle spam is almost dead now. No more 6x5 Purifiers with Razorbacks.

[Learn2Eel]

That's great to hear. Hopefully the new Chaos codec gets represented through balanced army lists, and that sets the theme for future releases.

[Simon Hodgson]

it is down to the fact that space marines sell they sell books they sell models they are in truth what GW makes much of there money on

BUT space marines need enemys apart from other space marines so we have the xenos races eldar dark eldar tyranids necron orcs and the Tau

Now look at the typical cycle of codex releases they tend to be a marine codex an alien codex a marine codex an alien codex so yes some of your xenos codexes are quite old now but let me also highlight a fact for you when that codex was released it was probably the most potent codex at the time as all codexs seem to be this is NOT a mistake as of course GW wish to max profits from the release of any nex codex so yes shockingly enough the latests codexs tend to be the best out there look at necrons grey knights dark eldar and blood angels for examples so guess what when GW do the new eldar or tau tyranid and orc codex guess what they will be probably the best army to use in 40k

now this is where the hate is marines get more codex releases than aliens well yes and no its kind of true but the truth is that there is a waiting list for codex releases as usual xenos players are allways waiting for a new release where space marine players have ample choices to make a good army from either the space marine codex ar any of the more recent space marine codexs so marine players can allways find a force to build where as xenos playes can be kind of locked into a codex for years

[Kurnost]

I'm with ElectricPaladin here, why the hate? I play SW and continually get it..... Yet I also fail to win in a spectacular and bloody fashion more often than not. I'm going to verge on 'people will whine about anything' :P

And as for xenos races not getting the love, some people need to add a FW dex or twelve to their book collection.... the newest Tau options are utterly terrifying! Battlesuits for HQ, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support? Yes please!

[magickbk]

I do tire of going into Games Workshops and seeing two marine armies facing off.

This is really where the marine hate stems from, I think, and it isn't relegated to GW stores, it is the vast majority of gaming groups. I've played in many places over the years, and I've run a lot of leagues/campaigns/tournaments at stores and as a GW staffer. I'm sure most of us have played somewhere where a particular army is so rare that it is often synonymous with a particular player(Chaos Jim, Ork Tom, etc). I remember having as many as 25 marine players for an event out of 40+ players, and several armies went unrepresented. For some players, that gets stale, and the options are either to switch to Xenos, or leave the hobby out of boredom. Those that switch often harbor some form of 'marine resentment'.

I myself was a marine player for the first 10 or so years that I was in the hobby, and as I played in new places and groups, started playing Xenos off and on for painting variety, but also to prove that the other armies were viable, as there was a common misconception that other armies had difficulty beating marines. When the Tau came out I started using them almost exclusively for most of my games until last year, when I started using Inquisition for most of my games.

I have some excitement for the new Dark Angels Codex, as they were my army in my early years of the hobby, most players in the area knew me as a Dark Angel player. But, I have not painted a marine for myself in close to 12 years, and I'm not particularly looking forward to it. I'm kind of hoping the new Codex blows me away to the point where I am excited to paint them.

If your gaming group only had one or two marine players, and had an even mix of other armies, I think there wouldn't be much marine hate, other than: why are the marines getting new units not in the Codex, and replacements for existing models, when my army still doesn't even have all the units in my Codex represented?

[Anggul]

I'm with ElectricPaladin here, why the hate? I play SW and continually get it..... Yet I also fail to win in a spectacular and bloody fashion more often than not. I'm going to verge on 'people will whine about anything' :P

And as for xenos races not getting the love, some people need to add a FW dex or twelve to their book collection.... the newest Tau options are utterly terrifying! Battlesuits for HQ, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support? Yes please!

It's often the fact that Space Marine codices (Space Wolves and Grey Knights mainly) usually give you much more for your points than other codices because GW know people will buy them. You might not play the cheapest, spammiest Space Wolves list, but lots of people do, same with Grey Knights, and that's where a lot of it stems from.

As for your talk of Forgeworld, Forgeworld have blatant Imperium favouritism, pretty much all of the Xenos stuff pales in comparison to the Imperial stuff. Most of the Eldar entries are a joke other than the Warp Hunter. This is another reason many players dislike them. Once again, not so much the Marines as the writers.

[Durendin]

As for your talk of Forgeworld, Forgeworld have blatant Imperium favouritism, pretty much all of the Xenos stuff pales in comparison to the Imperial stuff.

If you're talking about Imperial Armour then that's obviously going to have an Imperial bias as they're supposed Imperial records (as well as gaming aids). As for the Imperial stuff being superior to Xenos I think you'll find that highly relative. A good example would be the points cost of early Imperial stuff that didn't see revisions for years such as the Hydra which was rounded down by over a hundred points!

On the other hand a Forge World book written from the Ork perspective might be fun - just pages after pages of faces having been dipped in ink and smashed against the paper bound in riveted metal and wood. I don't think you've got enough teeth to afford one though! :D