Do you still want to be James Bond?

[Wildeybeast]

So, it turns out that being a womanising stud muffin just leads to chlamydia and possibly psychosis. Way to take the fantasy out of it BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19812608).

[Deadlift]

So, it turns out that being a womanising stud muffin just leads to chlamydia and possibly psychosis. Way to take the fantasy out of it BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19812608).

Phew looks like I had a lucky escape then. I don't think I would have liked that much sex anyway. Think of all the child maintenance payments. Sod that.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I never wanted to be Bond; I just wanted his dartgun wrist watch from "Moonraker". That thing was concentrated awesome.

I'm always a bit disappointed he's the only real superhero IP the UK has ever managed to embed in the rest of the world. He's dull when they play him as a hero. It's why I like "Dr. No" and the start of the new "Casino Royale" so much - he's basically a fascinating anti-villain.

[Wildeybeast]

Don't forget License to Kill and the whole rogue-agent, blood-vengenance, one-man war on South American drug lords.

[Denzark]

I never wanted to be Bond; I just wanted his dartgun wrist watch from "Moonraker". That thing was concentrated awesome.

I'm always a bit disappointed he's the only real superhero IP the UK has ever managed to embed in the rest of the world. He's dull when they play him as a hero. It's why I like "Dr. No" and the start of the new "Casino Royale" so much - he's basically a fascinating anti-villain.

I wonder at this - is he? Judge Dredd? V for Vendetta?

If we were to agree he is 'super hero' IP I wonder why it would be - this could be an interesting cultural discussion which would probably descend into transatlantic chuntering quite quickly...

[Psychosplodge]

It's certainly gone down downhill since he stopped being swathe and sophisticated and turned into a Bourne clone...

[Kyban]

I never wanted to be Bond either, he did seem kind of suave at times but for the most part he just blundered through the bad guys and somehow got lucky, saved the day and had a good looking girl throw herself at him for no real reason. In the real world he'd have been dead in about 5 minutes, he was actually a pretty terrible special agent. Though the movies somehow ended up being fairly entertaining.

[eldargal]

I always thought he was a bit of an arse.

Reading that article though:

"It's the same appeal as a series like Mad Men - it's a guilty pleasure. You can immerse yourself in something you know is wrong."
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Mad Men is one of the best exploration of human psychology set during one of the most dramatic culture changes in human history. At not point is it just a 'guilty pleasure'. What a complete cretin.

[Kyban]

I always thought he was a bit of an arse.

:D that was the word I was looking for!


Mad Men is one of the best exploration of human psychology set during one of the most dramatic culture changes in human history. At not point is it just a 'guilty pleasure'. What a complete cretin.

I never really understood the whole 'guilty pleasure' thing, but then again I never play 'bad' characters in video games either. One season of mad men was enough for me, it was a really neat historical setting but I didn't like the characters, they had no redeeming qualities and I couldn't get over that even if it was historically accurate.

[eldargal]

I think some people think Mad Men is only watched because of the pretty dressed. I've dressed vintage full-time since I was 17 and that was nice, but that was one minor facet of MM. Also anoys me a lot now, I have friends who dress in 1920s flapper style and 1930s-40s all different looks and people still tell them they look like something out of Mad Men. I get it too but I dress 50s- early 60s so they are at least in eh right area aesthetically as the styles were generally similar (New Look dominated).

Oh right, Bond. Yes he was an arse. At least earlier Bonds had a sense of style, Craig just doesn't. His suits are wrong, his attitude is wrong, everything is just wrong and I don't even like Bond to begin with.

[Mud Duck]

Wasn't he written originally as an womanizing, chainsmoking, bad attitude, anti-social arsehole with a license to kill. And not all that handsome to boot. I'd say that Craig has got the role down pretty closely.

Not even Sean Connery's, EG? tis a sad thing. Brings a tear to my eye.:p:D

[eldargal]

Connery and Dalton were the more tolerable Bonds, in my opinion. Still not a fan, and it has nothing to do with the sexism, I understand where that is coming from.

[MaltonNecromancer]

I wonder at this - is he? Judge Dredd? V for Vendetta?

Well, looked at from the outside, Bond's a borderline psychopath who murders at the behest of his government, seducing (occasionally raping) and discarding women like they were toys, only made to seem virtuous by the fact the men he hunts are far, far worse.

He's neither Dredd (a fascist character written by liberals) or V (the anthropomorphic representation of Platonic anarchy as written by a wizard). He's a total power fantasy written by a thoroughy unlikable upper class twit, but that doesn't mean he can't be used to tell stories. I'd say that Bond's closest character would be someone a bit like Billy Butcher from "The Boys". A horrible, horrible human being, but useful to the national interest and thus indulged.

As for his superheroic qualifications?

1.) Wears a costume (tuxedo)
2.) Is a basic fantasy for men about being stronger, faster, tougher, cooler than they are in real life.
3.) Survives insane, unrealistic battles.
4.) Unreasonably skilled at violence.
5.) Always wins.

He's Wolverine in a better suit.

[Denzark]

Yeah but Dredd and V meet all your 1-5 requirements. I have always thought 'superhero' had some special super power. Bond is just heroic. State sanctioned killing isn't (always) murder - at least not if done in accordance with international law. Not that Bond doesn't sometimes murder. When does he rape though?

[MaltonNecromancer]

Has to be said, I regard Dredd and V as superheroes too, and both antivillains as well (although Dredd sometimes slides into antihero, Depending Upon The Writer). I just thought you were looking at the villain/hero dynamic!

I don't think a superhero really needs any superpower beyond "larger than life"; kind of like the heroes of old greek myths. If you can summarise them as "completely unrealistic but awesome so I don't care", I think it's fair to say you're in superhero territory.

As for state-sanctioned killing not being murder, well, whatever helps those state-sponsored monsters rationalise and justify what they've done, eh? I regard the deliberate ending of one human life by another human as murder because, well, to me it just is. You can dress it up, justify it (and despite what you might think, I do believe there are some people who deserve to die). However, I don't see why people hide from the act or what it is, other than the fact it makes it harder to believe themselves the hero of their own internal monologue. Which is, ultimately, self-deception.

Sorry, off-topic. Where were we?

Ah, Bond and rape.

It's never explicit - nothing as horrible as Bond jumping out and raping a woman while she screams, but in the early Bond films, there are a few scenes (can't remember specifics) where I remember feeling a little... disquieted about things. It's kind of like, she's uncomfortable/reticent at the start, but fine afterwards, smoking a cigarette with Bond and I just remember thinking "This is a bit weird". I always remember wondering if the scene was played from her point of view (and we saw her alone afterwards) would it have been quite so upbeat?

I think it's best if I just quote TV Tropes:


A lot of the Sean Connery Bond movies suffer from this, including Victim Falls For Rapist, really Disposable Women, and Slap-Slap-Kiss. This dissonance was increased in The Man with the Golden Gun, when Roger Moore tries to slap around women, Connery-style, and looks as uncomfortable doing it as a modern audience would watching it. They are still toned down from the massive misogyny (and racism) that exists in the books... Film critic Matt Zoller Seitz discusses his dismay at a 2012 audience's comedic reaction to a screening From Russia with Love, due to the 1963 film's social mores and retro sexuality, arguing that the film needs to be taken in the context it was intended. As a counterpoint, writer John Perch argues the audience's laughter and incredulity was a perfectly naturally response, stating basically that society had marched on and to attempt to view the movie as someone from 1963 might have is, essentially, role-playing rather than the genuine moviegoing experience someone from 1963 would have had.

Ultimately, I think there's a reason it doesn't feel out-of-character that Alan Moore has Bond as a monstrous (and quite pathetic) villain in "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen".

[Denzark]

I hope you don't think all people who kill on behalf of the state ie the Armed Forces, are all monsters. Thats how you're statement could be read.

I think the superhero thing is just pedantry and semantics - I'll go with the wiki or dictionary.com definition of superhero - has 'superhuman powers' and uses them for good etc. Maybe bond et al are just extraordinary heros. Dredd's talents are the result of cloning, and V, genetic tampering. Bond's skills are the result of training and experience.

As to him being a rapist, I see what you are saying about the fashion in which she goes from denial to implicit consent. But, should we use modern day morals to judge him? Would we judge a Norman to be a child molester because he married a 14 year old girl? At the end of the day it may be a little unrealistic that no matter how reluctant they are all panting for him afterwards and none of them ever are seen on screen crying, going to the police and getting the morning after pill. But lack of realism doesn't allow us to make the assumption that he is a rapist.

Back OT - would one still want to be Bond? independantly wealthy, exciting job, foreign travel, ability to kill people who vex you without being held to account, much pliant female flesh - and a gold-plated civil service pension at the end? Sheeit yeah.

Just because the odds are on he is pox-ridden, doesn't mean as with so much else in the fictional life of Mr Bond, that he hasn't beaten the odds and stayed clean as a whistle - or possibly bagged up out of shot...

[Kyban]

Back OT - would one still want to be Bond? independantly wealthy, exciting job, foreign travel, ability to kill people who vex you without being held to account, much pliant female flesh - and a gold-plated civil service pension at the end? Sheeit yeah.


While that's one way to look at, I feel like there are much better fictional characters. If you're looking at just those qualities then why not Tony Stark?

[Denzark]

Stark vexes me with his overt arrogance. Bond is capable of the most stunning arrogance, sure, but normally within the confines of his persona as an English gentleman. Stark carries on like an X-factor Diva. Bond is self made from scratch, Stark is based on a massive inheritance. I think Bond has manners whereas Stark is obnoxious. Bond is classy, Stark is brash.

[Kirsten]

pff, Bond wishes he was me.

[Kyban]

So, maybe not Stark, that was just an example. I was just trying to point out that I don't see Bond as a particularly good character to want to be when there are so many to pick from. Plus, all I really know about Stark comes from the movies and he didn't seem that bad in them.

[Kirsten]

Tony Stark is probably my favourite character, I would be him. or, like, Toni Stark...

[Mud Duck]

I hope you don't think all people who kill on behalf of the state ie the Armed Forces, are all monsters. Thats how you're statement could be read.

Back OT - would one still want to be Bond? independantly wealthy, exciting job, foreign travel, ability to kill people who vex you without being held to account, much pliant female flesh - and a gold-plated civil service pension at the end? Sheeit yeah.



Independability wealthy? nope originally written as making next to nothing. the number off the top of my head was somewhere in the range of 5 to 6 thousand dollars yearly.
Exciting job. If you like sitting around for days only to be shot at.
Foreign travel. Can not really take a tour in the middle of a mission. It's more an in and out thing.
There are rules to the killing. Extra victims can get you in trouble with the Home Office. It didn't protect you from the cops or foreign laws, it just provided protection from the British Government.
Girls? Ok, although someone needs to be slapped up side the head on the naming convention. And some of the bad puns that can from those names.....
You would hope to see the pension, but remember all those people shooting/knifing/lasering/kung fuing/exploding/biting/dipping in various chemicaling/and other assorted killy, deadthy things in your direction/ area. Maybe harder too accomplice then Bond makes it look.
:D:D:D

[Kyban]

It's more an in and out thing.

your wording is oddly appropriate. ;)

[Wildeybeast]

Independability wealthy? nope originally written as making next to nothing. the number off the top of my head was somewhere in the range of 5 to 6 thousand dollars yearly.
Exciting job. If you like sitting around for days only to be shot at.
Foreign travel. Can not really take a tour in the middle of a mission. It's more an in and out thing.
There are rules to the killing. Extra victims can get you in trouble with the Home Office. It didn't protect you from the cops or foreign laws, it just provided protection from the British Government.
Girls? Ok, although someone needs to be slapped up side the head on the naming convention. And some of the bad puns that can from those names.....
You would hope to see the pension, but remember all those people shooting/knifing/lasering/kung fuing/exploding/biting/dipping in various chemicaling/and other assorted killy, deadthy things in your direction/ area. Maybe harder too accomplice then Bond makes it look.
:D:D:D

Yeah, when you get down to it Bond has fairly unglamorous lifestyle. I think I'd much rather be Archer. :D

[Denzark]

What, the writer or the Ambridge farmer?

[Wildeybeast]

Who? What? I meant Archer the cartoon character, the spoof of James Bond.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Archer really is quite brilliant.