Are Orks competitive?

[Chumbalaya]

Orks are not competitive. Sorry.

I'll give you a second to lift your jaws off the floor.

Good? Great.

This has been covered before, but I'm kinda sick of going over it again and again.
Here's some good reading on the subject:
Orks (http://bnhblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/competitive-orks-paradox.html)
Aren't (http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com/search/label/Orks)
Competitive (http://www.baldandscreaming.com/commentary/greenskins-versus-meta-game-are-orks-competitive/)


Read through all that if you dare and let's see if we can get a good discussion going.

[Yhcrana]

The last tournament I went to was won by an Ork army. A combined mech and infantry ork army.

It was the biggest 40k tourny in the country excluding the 40k masters.

I think they are competitive, but have I fallen for a controversial topic just for the sake of controversy?

[Hokiecow]

I think you have.

Orks have a lot more going for them then other armies, then say.. Tau or Dark Eldar. Orks are capable of getting in your face in the 1st turn and have tons of options. The poster sighted the issue with Orks being reliability of weapons.... THEIR ORKS! They aren't supposed to be marksmen.

Complaining about Orks current capabilities isn't going to make GW update their codex. Their are many more codex in need of an update over Orks. If you dislike playing that much, I'll gladly take them off your hands.

[40kGamer]

Orks make for an entertaining game, but I haven't lost a game to them yet. :p

And I think Dark Eldar are far more competitive than Orks... of course you can't use them like marines or you'll be very sorry! ;)

[SandWyrm]

Orks are not competitive. Sorry.

Your statement falls on it's face due to the simple fact that they consistently do well in Tourneys of all types. It's true, even if you blame it on all the other players being awful, which isn't a sane position to take after more than a year of reported results.

Instead, let's be more accurate and say that Orks are less RELIABLE than other races. There's a high degree of randomness built into the Ork Codex. Sometimes they get the benefits of that and do better than you might otherwise expect. Even at the high-end when facing optimized Mech builds and the like.

[Xas]

in a world if perfect people with perfect armylists where all the ohh-so-godly tactics the armchair generals think up work, yes there the orks have no chance.


but truth is that allmost all games (yes even or especially torunament ones) are lost because people make mistakes or do not know all there is to know. If you sit in your comfortable chair and have all the time of the world to critique on tactics post most things are clear.

in theory nids can do nothing against a landraider list without insane luck and venom cannons but even though I had neither I won the game with the nids in the deciding game of my countries national tournament. in theory he can "just" move away and have a field day firing at my army with his theoretically invincible land raiders. in reality he realized that he wouldnt be able to shoot me off the table and I'd be sitting conveniently on both objectives (big bugs on his, gaunts on mine) if he didnt bring the fight. ever tried to fight an uphil battle, gaining ground against tyranids with a good half of your points spent in practically useless tanks?

same torunament I had dark eldar charge 6 whyches into 5 tyranid warriors (who were backed up with stealer aura and featuring a peltora of lashwhips) in three different places at the same time. back at home in front of your pc everyone can comment that this isnt a smart move because the whyches basically have a few more attacks but both wound and hit worse and dont have a pretty save either against volume of attacks.



currently tournament play is done at roughly a felt 10% of the possible "power" that could exist in 40k while internetdom-armchair-general-ing is done at 20-25%. your normal friendly store games count in between 2-5% in my book.

I'm shure now many people (especially those theory-ists) will be outraged that I say even the whole knowledge of the online community combined only reaches 1/4 of the possibilities. It is the (not so) sad truth. There is much to still be written and thought about which most people will never get to even grasp and those that do have that knowledge usually not waste their time writing about it. the old goatboy articels (before the crowd flamed him to death for beeing a "powergamer"... may they eternally burn in hell for that as much could have come from this discussions) or some of fritz' stuff with the eldar and necrons are the tip of the iceberg.

mathhammer is prolly the only theoretical concept the community has delved into and mastered to some degree (at least those who care) but there are still many completely unexplored avenues of strategic concept that lay bare. some examples for those who are curious: local vs global superiority, application of power, psychology, deception, tempo, logistics. yeah thats where the other 3/4 lay and there also lies the solution for everyone who thinks the world ends with each new, creeped, overpowered dex :)

[Katie Drake]

I approached this thread with an open mind. I didn't agree that Orks were a non-competitive army, but I was more than willing to hear out and seriously consider all opinions. I didn't agree that Orks were a non-competitive army.

I still don't.

Somewhere along the line, someone (I don't remember who) said something about Codex Marines and Tau being more competitive than Orks. It was around that time that the writer lost me and that I became pretty much closed to the idea that Orks weren't a top notch list.

Tau? Are you [expletive deleted] kidding me? What in a blue hell can the Tau do in 5th? In all of my personal experience, the Tau are only good at beating on other gimped armies, like Blood Angels, Dark Angels (Greenwing), Daemons and similar.

[DarkLink]

I'm a Grey Knight player, and I'm competitive in my local gaming group (and we have some very good gamers here). I won't say I win everything, but I do pretty well (even though half my games or more are against melta-spam style lists, 'cause everyone knows I take Land Raiders).

I dare anyone to say that Grey Knights aren't the weakest codex in the game (if you say they're tied with Necrons, that's ok).

Competitiveness isn't about the army. It isn't even really about the army list too much (so long as all the various elements required in a balanced list are there). It is about how the player plays that list. I play Grey Knights, because they match my playstyle. I'm very good at carefully manuvering all my guys and denying the charge and staying out of harms way. I can't do that with Space Marines, because Space Marines are much more static than Grey Knights. I tried starting a Space Marine army when it came out, and I fail miserably with them. Not because Space Marines aren't competitive, but because I don't know how to play them properly.

Plus, I don't think many will agree that Orks are less competitive than Tau. 5th ed hurt tau more than it helped them. I don't think Orks are the best army in the game, but I'd put them in the top half, above Tau.

[Ming]

Any army is not competitive if you use it wrong. Period. Using it wrong includes not owning the right tools.

A player who studies, understands his tools, practises, and learns, can win with any codex.

We have an ork player in our area who is pretty freakin good. He plays only orks. He studies everyone else's codex. He understands the ork codex and gets past the distractions to get at the core of "ork theory". He is so good, he stomps all the ork players he meets. It is as if he channels Adrian Wood Himself.

Not only are orks competitive, but even Dark Eldar are competitve...by those who study, own the best tools, practise, learn, and play them...

As for me, I'm hamstrung by my own economy. I know what tools I need to get. I'm just not willing to commit.

[Chumbalaya]

Yay, fun timez!


The last tournament I went to was won by an Ork army. A combined mech and infantry ork army.

It was the biggest 40k tourny in the country excluding the 40k masters.

I think they are competitive, but have I fallen for a controversial topic just for the sake of controversy?

What were the scenarios like? What was the overall skill level of other players? How good were their lists? Soft scores in play? These things tend to have a big influence on how certain armies do. In a comp-heavy environment Orks do well because their Troops are useful, while Tau get roflstomped because their Troops suck and they lose points right out of the gate.

I'm not making a controversial topic for the sake of controversy, but I would like to see how people feel about the subject. Orks are pretty well established as awesomesauce, I play 'em and I haven't had much trouble beating them so I'm curious as to why. Is it the internet's fault, like a lot of 40k's bad habits, or is it something else?


Orks have a lot more going for them then other armies, then say.. Tau or Dark Eldar. Orks are capable of getting in your face in the 1st turn and have tons of options. The poster sighted the issue with Orks being reliability of weapons.... THEIR ORKS! They aren't supposed to be marksmen.

Complaining about Orks current capabilities isn't going to make GW update their codex. Their are many more codex in need of an update over Orks. If you dislike playing that much, I'll gladly take them off your hands.

Somebody missed the point. I love my Orks, but I don't bring them out unless we're playing friendlies or Apoc. They aren't viable in a competitive setting.


Orks make for an entertaining game, but I haven't lost a game to them yet. :p

And I think Dark Eldar are far more competitive than Orks... of course you can't use them like marines or you'll be very sorry! ;)

Yeah, Orks are a lot of fun to play with and against, but they come up short competitively. DE rock face.


Your statement falls on it's face due to the simple fact that they consistently do well in Tourneys of all types. It's true, even if you blame it on all the other players being awful, which isn't a sane position to take after more than a year of reported results.

Instead, let's be more accurate and say that Orks are less RELIABLE than other races. There's a high degree of randomness built into the Ork Codex. Sometimes they get the benefits of that and do better than you might otherwise expect. Even at the high-end when facing optimized Mech builds and the like.

It's not so much their lack of reliability, though it does hurt a lot of their choices. The big problems Orks have are No Retreat, lack of any real capability to knock out heavy armor or any mech list, reliance on overpriced super units, morale and problems with dedicated assault units. For a CC army, Orks get it handed to them by damn near everything. Berzerkers, GKs, Termies, Genestealers, just about any dedicated assaulters. Nob Bikers can try and fight them off, but often at twice their cost or more. And if you want to cut costs, you get tank shocked off the board with lovely low Ld. Relying on PKs to knock out armor is suicidal, and random S weapons don't cut the mustard.

Orks do well at tournies because they are great at stomping over armies that haven't converted to 5th ed. Sad to say we still have that problem, and Orks are more or less tailor made to crush them. Once people figure out how to mech up and play 5th, Orks are in for a world of hurt. They also benefit greatly from soft scoring and silly tourney missions that screw up game balance.


in a world if perfect people with perfect armylists where all the ohh-so-godly tactics the armchair generals think up work, yes there the orks have no chance.

but truth is that allmost all games (yes even or especially torunament ones) are lost because people make mistakes or do not know all there is to know. If you sit in your comfortable chair and have all the time of the world to critique on tactics post most things are clear.

in theory nids can do nothing against a landraider list without insane luck and venom cannons but even though I had neither I won the game with the nids in the deciding game of my countries national tournament. in theory he can "just" move away and have a field day firing at my army with his theoretically invincible land raiders. in reality he realized that he wouldnt be able to shoot me off the table and I'd be sitting conveniently on both objectives (big bugs on his, gaunts on mine) if he didnt bring the fight. ever tried to fight an uphil battle, gaining ground against tyranids with a good half of your points spent in practically useless tanks?

same torunament I had dark eldar charge 6 whyches into 5 tyranid warriors (who were backed up with stealer aura and featuring a peltora of lashwhips) in three different places at the same time. back at home in front of your pc everyone can comment that this isnt a smart move because the whyches basically have a few more attacks but both wound and hit worse and dont have a pretty save either against volume of attacks.

currently tournament play is done at roughly a felt 10% of the possible "power" that could exist in 40k while internetdom-armchair-general-ing is done at 20-25%. your normal friendly store games count in between 2-5% in my book.

I'm shure now many people (especially those theory-ists) will be outraged that I say even the whole knowledge of the online community combined only reaches 1/4 of the possibilities. It is the (not so) sad truth. There is much to still be written and thought about which most people will never get to even grasp and those that do have that knowledge usually not waste their time writing about it. the old goatboy articels (before the crowd flamed him to death for beeing a "powergamer"... may they eternally burn in hell for that as much could have come from this discussions) or some of fritz' stuff with the eldar and necrons are the tip of the iceberg.

mathhammer is prolly the only theoretical concept the community has delved into and mastered to some degree (at least those who care) but there are still many completely unexplored avenues of strategic concept that lay bare. some examples for those who are curious: local vs global superiority, application of power, psychology, deception, tempo, logistics. yeah thats where the other 3/4 lay and there also lies the solution for everyone who thinks the world ends with each new, creeped, overpowered dex :)

I would largely agree with that. It's not all about the army, it's the player that has the final word on what works and what doesn't. Where I'm coming from, all players are good, or at least competent, and Noobslayer armies like Orks and Daemons don't do so hot because they don't have the capabilities that others have. It's a glass ceiling with gimped armies like them.

It does make me sad that the current tourney environment is more about either breaking the game with messed up scenarios, soft scores artificially influencing results, RPS, or counting on poor armies and players showing up so your Noobslayer can get the job done.

I know what I'm suggesting isn't going to happen, but it's nice to dream that the competitive 40k scene can turn into something fun and challenging instead of the circus we've got currently.


I approached this thread with an open mind. I didn't agree that Orks were a non-competitive army, but I was more than willing to hear out and seriously consider all opinions. I didn't agree that Orks were a non-competitive army.

I still don't.

Somewhere along the line, someone (I don't remember who) said something about Codex Marines and Tau being more competitive than Orks. It was around that time that the writer lost me and that I became pretty much closed to the idea that Orks weren't a top notch list.

Tau? Are you [expletive deleted] kidding me? What in a blue hell can the Tau do in 5th? In all of my personal experience, the Tau are only good at beating on other gimped armies, like Blood Angels, Dark Angels (Greenwing), Daemons and similar.

It's actually the reverse. Tau are extremely good in 5th ed because while every army has to get close up to pop tanks and get the job done, Tau can sit back and make it work from afar. I'm talking railguns. Cover a problem? Markerlights say hello. Assault armies closing too quickly? Kroot, Piranhas, Missile Pods for transports. Tau are solid, but only a handful of units are worthwhile (Crisis suits, Kroot+dogs, Pathfinders, Piranhas, Hammerheads and Broadsides) so they all end up looking the same. They're trickier, so I'm not surprised you'd find them wanting. FoF and gunline Tau, the predominant type, are garbage holdovers from 4th and if that's all you see I can understand why you think that way.

Codex: SM on the other hand has a ton of viable and varied builds and two of the best things in a Codex evar: combat tactics and assault terminators. Everything in this book is solid, barring wacky stuff like LotD, LSS and Vanguard. I'm shocked you would not consider them extremely competitive.


I'm a Grey Knight player, and I'm competitive in my local gaming group (and we have some very good gamers here). I won't say I win everything, but I do pretty well (even though half my games or more are against melta-spam style lists, 'cause everyone knows I take Land Raiders).

I dare anyone to say that Grey Knights aren't the weakest codex in the game (if you say they're tied with Necrons, that's ok).

Competitiveness isn't about the army. It isn't even really about the army list too much (so long as all the various elements required in a balanced list are there). It is about how the player plays that list. I play Grey Knights, because they match my playstyle. I'm very good at carefully manuvering all my guys and denying the charge and staying out of harms way. I can't do that with Space Marines, because Space Marines are much more static than Grey Knights. I tried starting a Space Marine army when it came out, and I fail miserably with them. Not because Space Marines aren't competitive, but because I don't know how to play them properly.

Plus, I don't think many will agree that Orks are less competitive than Tau. 5th ed hurt tau more than it helped them. I don't think Orks are the best army in the game, but I'd put them in the top half, above Tau.

I can dig that. Player skill trumps lists generally, but it's difficult to quantify skill online as we really can't see each other play or think alike. It's much easier to analyze army lists and get a feel for what someone thinks is useful or how they use it. GKs are indeed nerfed as all hell (unless you add IG ;) ), but like my Deathwing they're a fun bunch to play and a great challenge.

I'd rate Tau a lot higher, maybe your local Tau players need to actually bring a good list :P

Good stuff so far, thanks for the contributions.

[MajorSoB]

Orks are competitive, and you might know that if you would have showed up at your local tourney! We had two Ork armies finish near the top. ( I know it was a comp heavy tourney right, and that is why huh? Wrong, comp was only 10%!!!! ...Oh that's right you didnt like the missions too, right? They were based on the Adepticon missions, you know that big tourney in Chicago that no one plays at!)

To refresh your memory, the tourney that I speak of was the third annual DaBoyz GT event, sponsored by the former winners of the Adepticon Team tournament. Guess what they won Adepticon with? Yep, Orks! I suppose the competition at Adepticon must have just been too soft.

How about the 'Ard Boyz tourney? Two year the Ork battlewagon army from hell placed very high in the finals and dominated all rounds between, but I suppose that was coincidental huh?

Face it Orks are quite playable and in some forms pretty freaking burly. ( Its OK to be wrong sometimes!)

So tell me if Orks suck so bad why were you going to bring them to our tourney before you pulled a no show? I don't really care so don't even bother going there, but a little consistency might be nice.

Have a nice day!

[Yhcrana]

What were the scenarios like? What was the overall skill level of other players? How good were their lists? Soft scores in play? These things tend to have a big influence on how certain armies do. In a comp-heavy environment Orks do well because their Troops are useful, while Tau get roflstomped because their Troops suck and they lose points right out of the gate.



Scenarios were a mix of objectives and kill points, certain units being worth more kill points than others.
The ork player who won is regarded as one of the best 40k players in the local scene and has numerous trophies to his name.
Soft scores were about 40% of the total points.

If i can remember right his list was:

Warboss - on foot with everything
big mek - kff
8 mega armour nobs -battlewagon
truck boys
2 x 30 boys
10 grots
4 dethkoptas
6 killa kans

[Chumbalaya]

@MajorSoB: Yeah, I was all set to go for the tourney. Then I ran into an IRL problem that night and couldn't make it. Very bummed about it.

I was going for Orks because they're my favorite army. I wasn't going to get anything anyway since they aren't painted and I figure my goofy army would fit well with goofy scenarios. I hope I'll be able to attend next year, maybe I'll paint something by then ;)

I really don't see why Orks are held in such high regard. Even the so called powerbuilds are pretty easy to counter. Nob Bikers = S8 pies and tank shock, TH/SS Termies pwn, Battlewagons = open-topped, low AV on sides and rear, and they can't do anything but get close (melta range, yayz, or easy side/rear shots), Green Tide = Durpity durp I have 0 mobility and can't kill armor. Something's not clicking and I sure hope it isn't me.

Maybe the guys running the army are just really good. Necrons and Tyranids are terribad too (Orks aren't quite this far gone), but they've won tournies before. If anything, winning with a sub-par army is a much better accomplishment.

I dunno much about Adepticon, but the FAQ they use is a travesty (hooray for arbitrary rewrites!) and if the scenarios are wonky go nuts I don't see how it could be much measure of anything beyond who got lucky and brought the army least hamstrung by them.

Hope I can go next year, maybe my IG will be done. Or I'll bring Chaos Spawn/Possessed spam and totally stomp all over y'all :P

@Yhcrana:

I think I read his batreps on Dakka, I liked them. Competition didn't look too stiff, but he played his army well and definitely proved that player skill > army limitations.

[SandWyrm]

Orks do well at tournies because they are great at stomping over armies that haven't converted to 5th ed. Sad to say we still have that problem, and Orks are more or less tailor made to crush them. Once people figure out how to mech up and play 5th, Orks are in for a world of hurt. They also benefit greatly from soft scoring and silly tourney missions that screw up game balance.

Speaking as a 5th Ed tourney player who *has* completely mechanized his IG, I'd rate Orks as being more dangerous to me than MEQs. I eat Marines for breakfast, but a good Ork list played by an opponent who knows what he's doing can still beat me around a quarter of the time. Mostly because it's so easy to construct unique builds with that codex. Which means that I can be thrown off when they pull some rabbit out of their hat that I wasn't expecting.

Case in point: 'Ard Boyz - Round II

There were 22 'Ard Boyz players at the store I went to, 19 of which were full or 90% mechanized lists (Mostly Chaos, Codex Marines, and IG). Yet all three winners at the end of the day were Orks. One was a full mech Battlewagon list, one was mixed mech+infantry, and the last one (who beat me down on table 3) was all-infantry. Pure luck would explain one or two of those winners, but not all 3.

[Confuddled]

I’d actually agree that Orks aren’t all that competitive, especially at higher point levels.

Caveats would apply, of course.

Lots of considerations – luck of the draw, size of the player pool, resources of players involved (not every Guard player is going to have the resources to field 10+ Chimera chassis…), geographical rulings(deff rollas affecting vehicles, for instance – it is NOT a global ruling), terrain distribution, scenarios and so on and so forth.


Imho, the single biggest factor, however, would be the size of the game.


A Guard army could theoretically field up to 6 chimeras and 55 men as a single troop choice, those 6 Chimeras and 55 men take up 40% of a 1500-point army (600-odd points before upgrades).

However, that’s 600+ points less to spend on units to cover your other bases – Valkyries, HQ choices, ordnance and Russ squadrons. So odds are your average 1500-point Guard army is going to have, maybe, 4 Chimeras, a pair of Hydras, maybe 3 other vehicles of varying marks.

1850 points? 32%
2000 points? 30%

Same thing applies to more elite armies – Space Wolves, Space Marines, Tau… The higher the point limit, the more easy it is for other armies to field the support units they require.

In contrast, Ork armies suffer badly from the Law of Diminishing Returns, as the edjukated types put it...

Its fairly easy to efficiently fill most of your HQ/troop/elite slots at a relatively low point level. Once you’ve peaked, however, any other points you spend aren’t going to contribute all THAT much to your army – a 1850-point Ork army isn’t all that much more effective compared to a 1500-point Ork army.

[Confuddled]

Pure luck would explain one or two of those winners, but not all 3.
Are we talking about in-game luck, luck of the draw or both?




Case in point: 'Ard Boyz - Round II

There were 22 'Ard Boyz players at the store I went to, 19 of which were full or 90% mechanized lists (Mostly Chaos, Codex Marines, and IG). Yet all three winners at the end of the day were Orks.
Fair enough.

If you're looking at tournament results, however, looking at the finals (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=4&aId=9500009&start=5), Orks make up the single largest contingent (14 players out of 64 – 21%), and yet, there is only 1 Ork player in the top 5.

In the top 10? 2 Orks.
Top 20? Slightly better – 5 Orks.

Standard caveats (luck of draw, skill, terrain etc) apply, but still rather telling, I believe...

[RocketRollRebel]

Orks are definatly competative. My IG were flying high in 2nd place at the last tourny till I hit a wall of 190 orks!(got an award for it even ;p) They ended up with best overall but i'd definatly place orks up there in the top teir along with IG and CSM.

[mercer]

I like Orks, they are my fun army but I don't take them seriously and aren't a competitive army. Ok, they have won tournaments but are the tournaments running in th past? Coming 2 years ago Orks were good, but with mech armies on the rise they are not. Do tournaments run mech armies, or still running around on foot and with lash of submission and biker nobz? I think thats what the score is here.

[Melissia]

Sure they are, if you can use them right.


You can, can't you?

[DoctorEvil]

I became an Ork player by accident (I "accidentially" kept all the Ork from 2 boxes of AoBR).

As I was trying to make a cohesive army list from the jumble of Ork stuff I had, I realized "I'm going to have a difficult time dealing with vehicles". Given that 5th edition has put a emphasis on mechanized, I think that fact alone hampers the competitiveness of the Ork Codex, especially when compared to the new Codii.

I think in general, a "competitive" army list will will have reliable options to deal with what the enemy throws at you (anti light armor, anti hvy armor, anti-horder, anti-MEQ, etc.....). It will also have options that force your opponent to react to you.

Do Ork armies really care about what the opponent has? They really seem like the "Bull in the China Shop", they just don't care. Orks aren't about have options to deal with the enemy, they're about forcing the opponent to react. So when compared to the new army lists like SM and IG, Orks really don't appear "competitive"

That's not to say a skilled player can't win with them. The handicap an Ork list present can obviously be overcome, by a good player. But all things being equal, other Codii have a pretty big advantages for competitive list building in my opinion.

[The Green Git]

Hahhahahahahahahahhahahahha <breathe> hahahahhahahahhahahahahah....Chumbawumba made a funny.

Quoting Frank Fugger and ****** really help you appear objective too. Using yourself as a reference...well that's just brilliant.

See here's the cute part: If anyone disagrees with you or Frank Fugger and gives you examples of how Orks win at tournaments, local games, etc. then you wave them off as facing poseurs and losers that don't know how to play or make army lists. Then you beat your chest and proclaim if they just faced a TRUE 40K master like yourself you would show them the error of their ways and the light of truth would descend on them like the Holy Spirit and lift the scales from their eyes.

Can't you even make up some new nonsense instead of dragging this old crap outta the bag?

[DoctorEvil]

Hahhahahahahahahahhahahahha <breathe> hahahahhahahahhahahahahah....Chumbawumba made a funny.

Quoting Frank Fugger and ****** really help you appear objective too. Using yourself as a reference...well that's just brilliant.

See here's the cute part: If anyone disagrees with you or Frank Fugger and gives you examples of how Orks win at tournaments, local games, etc. then you wave them off as facing poseurs and losers that don't know how to play or make army lists. Then you beat your chest and proclaim if they just faced a TRUE 40K master like yourself you would show them the error of their ways and the light of truth would descend on them like the Holy Spirit and lift the scales from their eyes.

Can't you even make up some new nonsense instead of dragging this old crap outta the bag?

I've read Chumbalaya's response to the posts, and I've got to say, I don't see him doing much chest beating. He certainly hasn't issued any proclaimations on himself being a TRUE 40K Master. In fact he's been clear that he's interested in hearing other peoples opinions on the subject, and pretty clear in politely stating his opinion.......so where exactly is this coming from?

[DoctorEvil]

The other thing to think about is what is the definition of competitive?

There is a way to define competitive in the theorical analysis (or Mathhammer has some call it). It's fairly simple to compare the various Codex and determine the needs for what a balanced army would need to contain. Let's face it, the Ork Codex comes up a little short when compared to some of the others. The lack of efficiently being able to deal with AV14 is one of the drawbacks.

So from an apples to apples comparison, you'd have a hard time convincing me (or apparently Chumbalaya) that the Ork Codex is competitive in that sense.

The other measure of competitive is actual results. How well do Ork lists actually do in tournaments. The data would seem to indicate, they do pretty darn well. But actual results add in other variables to the equation. Things like player skill. How do we measure player skill? Number of victories? Years played? Height? It's a largely subjective thing. Yes, you can usually point out the most skilled player at your LGS. Everyone knows him and has been beaten by him. But is he has good as the guy from that LGS from that big city 1000 miles away? It's like the arguments I have with friends over SEC football vs. Big Ten football. SEC football is always better, until a Big Ten team beats them:) The other factor is the local metagame. If for some reason the local metagame, does not include lists with much heavy armor, then an Ork list in theory would do much better than a metagame where everyone brings 6 Land Raiders to the table every week.

My point is with actual results, there are alot of factors other than simply the competitiveness of the Codex that come into play. The relative skill of the player group, the type of army list being played, etc.....will all factor very heavily into the actual competitiveness of an Ork list.

[Melissia]

That's not to say a skilled player can't win with them. The handicap an Ork list present can obviously be overcome, by a good player. But all things being equal, other Codii have a pretty big advantages for competitive list building in my opinion.(it's codices, not "codii"-- that isn't a word)

Regardless, however, I actually dispute the claim that they aren't competitive, or even that they have a disadvantage. They have a different style, at most-- the style itself is not a disadvantage.

[The Green Git]

I've read Chumbalaya's response to the posts, and I've got to say, I don't see him doing much chest beating. He certainly hasn't issued any proclaimations on himself being a TRUE 40K Master. In fact he's been clear that he's interested in hearing other peoples opinions on the subject, and pretty clear in politely stating his opinion.......so where exactly is this coming from?

Dakka. He's just dragging old sewage from there back out here.

[Chumbalaya]

I don't post on Dakka, so I'm not sure what the dealy is. I've seen Orks being hailed as the greatest army evar in all of 40k-dom, I see them win tournies, and then I compare that with my experiences playing with/against them and I look at the "hard" evidence: rules, Codices, etc and something doesn't add up.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, by all means do. I don't claim to be the ultimate master of 40k, but I honestly think that I'm seeing something others don't and I want to show them that Orks are not something to freak out over. They're not cheesy, they're not unbeatable, I don't even think they're all that good in a competitive setting. Rather than go along with the internet mentality, I'd like to see if people call them competitive because that's their experience or because the prevailing opinion says so (Earth is flat cuz everyone says so).

And yeah, we can't quantify player skill, local competition, and so on, so we have to go by what's common for all of us: we all have the same rules and same numbers. A lot of local tournies and even big ones too alter the game to (intentionally or otherwise) favor certain armies or builds more than others. They bring in soft scoring to influence the results, which has nothing to do with player skill or army strength. And since there is no consistency between them, it's basically the same as saying you won one time at the FLGS.

Anyway, I think it's an interesting discussion to have if we leave the stupid stuff at the door (look who's talking too ;) ).

[DarkLink]

I'd rate Tau a lot higher, maybe your local Tau players need to actually bring a good list :P

Good stuff so far, thanks for the contributions.

We don't actually have any active tau players right now. We do have a few ork players, one of which always places in the top spots of our local tournaments.

[RocketRollRebel]

Nob bikers may not be the "in thing" now but I have to say that the humble ork boy is their greatest strength. They are simply a cheap little killing machine and you can fill a board with them in a standard game. The mob rule took care of a lot of LD issues that they had plus 180 kitted out orks being under 1,500 pts is enough to make make anyone balk.

[Aldramelech]

Nob bikers may not be the "in thing" now but I have to say that the humble ork boy is their greatest strength. They are simply a cheap little killing machine and you can fill a board with them in a standard game. The mob rule took care of a lot of LD issues that they had plus 180 kitted out orks being under 1,500 pts is enough to make make anyone balk.

Agreed. My regular opponent fields Orks and he often says "You dont need stuff, tanks, bikes etc. You just need Orks, lots and lots of Orks". Apart from 1 Killer Kan and 3 Deffcopters his force is all foot slogging Orks and he wins more then he loses.

[Melissia]

A nice build I once saw was 180 boyz, six power klawz and bosspoles, and two big meks with KFFs and EA in a 1500 point game.

i'd not want to face off against that unless I specifically designed a horde Sisters army or something with lots of cover ignoring blasts (three whirlwinds?).

[Chumbalaya]

The dreaded Green Tide puts the fear of Gork (or possibly Mork) in gamers everywhere. I wonder why?

At first 180+ models may seem like a daunting prospect, but in reality things aren't nearly as bad as one might think.

You have to take into consideration the limitations of such an army. 180 models is difficult to fit comfortably in your typical deployment zone, so that means they will either be bunched up in "please template me" formation or spread out enough to leave models at the back of the table or on opposite sides, dividing their forces and making it much easier for a fast army to roll up 1 flank.

The basic Boy looks solid on paper. Solid statline for a low cost. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate so well on the tabletop. Thanks to mob rule, Orks need to bring big units or they run the risk of running with their poor Ld or suffering greatly from No Retreat! wounds. Big units sound great, lots of bodies means they can soak up casualties fairly well and can put out a lot more shots/swings.

Problem is, bit units are slow. Sorry, infantry slogging across the board really don't inspire fear. They have to plod along 6" per turn, bunching up to get in sooner and taking more casualties, or spreading out and getting less models in the initial charge. Orks have to win that first charge, otherwise they lose S4 and have a much more difficult time doing any appreciable damage. A big footslogging unit should never get the charge because of their lack of mobility.

A Green Tide has almost no answer to vehicles. A unit of Boyz can take rokkits, but it's only 3 for the unit and you give up running. 3 rokkits at BS2 doesn't do all that much. It takes 13.5 BS2 rokkitz to destroy a Rhino (9 if you bring Kanz or Kannonz). Not so good, imagine what AV13+ will do. A mech army can zoom around, essentially impervious to the army's shooting and deliver its cargo exactly where it needs to be. Some propose assaulting, it's not a good idea. Against that Rhino, the PK Nob has .186 chance of destroying the Rhino (.56 if it moved 6", but why would you do that?). And after whiffing on the Rhino, the unit is nice and clumped up to be smacked down by flamers or templates.

Boyz units are not as good in assault as you might think. They have to get the charge to be effective and this isn't going to happen barring extreme luck or poor play. It's always better to get the charge on Orks. Even a Tactical Squad can lay down the hurt on a unit of Boyz if (when) they get the drop on them, and they aren't even designed for combat. All they need to do is zoom in their Rhino 12", watch the Orks flail about to try and disable their ride, hope out, shoot, and charge. In subsequent rounds they can use combat tactics to get out and repeat the shooting. A dedicated assault unit like Berzerkers, Genestealers, or Terminators will make a mess of them. Thanks to No Retreat! when Orks start losing, they keep losing and a big unit of 30 disappears quite rapidly. Once they get below 10 models it's a simple matter to run them down thanks to low Ld and I.

It's not enough to gunline against a Green Tide, they can use cover and sheer number of models to get close. You have to use mobility and speed bumps to give you more time to blow them away. Staying inside vehicles is a good idea, it gives them an extra layer to get through before munching on your juicy unit, and since they have difficulty with vehicles you get a great method of protecting your units and putting the Orks in bad positions. Use tank shock to push units around, clump them up for templates, or move them away from objectives. Use cheap sacrificial units to tie up his units, or let them blow through in one round of combat and get bunched up against for more template loving. The Green Tide has no mobility and no way to get through your sacrificial lambs except going full force into them, use their hammer nature to your advantage.

So, with overcowding issues, low mobility and reactivity, no answer to vehicles, and problems with assault, I don't see how Green Tide armies can get anything done.

However, they do excel against 4th edition armies (gunlines, las/plas in particular) and suboptimal armies. That's why I call them the Noobslayers. People keep playing poor armies and when the Noobslayers show up, they throw up their hands and cry cheese rather than try to figure out how to stop them. You'd be surprised what you'll find out with a little reading and experimentation.

[Melissia]

Unless you're talking lots of cover-ignoring blasts, a green tide is nowhere NEAR as vulnerable as you think it is. But if you're taking a list specifically designed to fight off a KFF protected green tide list, you shouldn't be arguing that it's weak, only that it's counterable by using a list designed to beat it.

Which is no surprise.

[Aldramelech]

I find Orks vs Guard to be very similar to Brits vs Zulus. If they can be stopped with firepower, well and good. But If they get in.......... The Fat Lady has well and truly sung.

[DarkLink]

Mobz backed up by Stomboyz are great, as the stormboyz have the mobility the rest of the army lacks.

Mobz actually do fairly well against any vehicles with rear AV 10, as on the charge they roll a rediculous number of str 4 attacks. They aren't that good, but they have a chance.

[Chumbalaya]

Unless you're talking lots of cover-ignoring blasts, a green tide is nowhere NEAR as vulnerable as you think it is. But if you're taking a list specifically designed to fight off a KFF protected green tide list, you shouldn't be arguing that it's weak, only that it's counterable by using a list designed to beat it.

Which is no surprise.

I'm not talking about tailoring, just a solid take-all-comers list. If you don't have templates or blasts to handle hordes, it isn't an all comers list. Sisters, for example, get freakin' Immolators and flamers on damn near everything. IG have more pies than a bake sale. The KFF only provides a 5+ cover save, so they'd need a screening unit to get anything better. Massed fire followed up by close range burnination and/or assault sees them off quickly.


Mobz backed up by Stomboyz are great, as the stormboyz have the mobility the rest of the army lacks.

Mobz actually do fairly well against any vehicles with rear AV 10, as on the charge they roll a rediculous number of str 4 attacks. They aren't that good, but they have a chance.

Stormboyz suffer from the same problems all jump pack assault troops do. They have nothing to hide behind come in small units, and provide obvious targets for initial firepower. All at a cost they aren't worth.

Even with S4 you need a 6+ to hit and a 6+ to glance and multiple damage results to destroy said vehicle. Assuming a Rhino again, it will require on average 324 S4 hits. I don't think Orks have that many attacks :P

[40kGamer]

A list of 180 Footslogging Orks would be a dream come true for the style of army that I play. The army is spread out, slow and almost impossible to miss with templates! It's a simple matter of focusing on 1-2 units at a time until they flee then repeat. I have far more trouble with a mixed ork army that has some fast troops as well as a horde of footsloggers. It at least gives the ork player a chance to pin some of my fast units until the boyz eventually walk across the board. Assuming they make it before the game ends. :p

Stormboyz with Zagstruk (I think) can be nasty as they can assault when they deep strike. Of course this can go horribly wrong!

[Chumbalaya]

Zaggy looks scary, but he has to drop his big unit within 6" of their intended victims. With 20 models per mob (you need them big because the drop kills a few initially and morale problems come into play again) it's tricky to position them safely and get a good charge against a worthy target.

[MajorSoB]

I think I read his batreps on Dakka, I liked them. Competition didn't look too stiff, but he played his army well and definitely proved that player skill > army limitations.

Post a link to the batrep, I tried to find it no luck.

I assure you that the competition was alot stiffer than you could imagine. There were multiple GT event winners present from several different cities and two countries. When you show up next year, you will know just how hard it was to earn victory points from these people and their armies.

Congrats to our overall winner!

[Chumbalaya]

I was actually referring to the poster right after you, though I too would like to see some batreps from the GT.

[SandWyrm]

Are we talking about in-game luck, luck of the draw or both?



Fair enough.

If you're looking at tournament results, however, looking at the finals (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=&section=&pIndex=4&aId=9500009&start=5), Orks make up the single largest contingent (14 players out of 64 – 21%), and yet, there is only 1 Ork player in the top 5.

In the top 10? 2 Orks.
Top 20? Slightly better – 5 Orks.

Standard caveats (luck of draw, skill, terrain etc) apply, but still rather telling, I believe...

Yeah, well the 3 Ork winners at my store were the *only* Ork players we had out of 22 people. So it stood out. Sure, luck was a big factor given the crap missions. But even so, it was amazing to see.

2 Orks in the Top 10 and 1 in the Top 5 seems about right to me. I mean, how many competitive 5th Ed Codexes were available at the time? IG, Codex Marines, Chaos Marines, & Orks makes 4. So a 1 in 5 result isn't bad at all. Especially considering that the IG codex was still getting the benefit of being the most recent release.

[SandWyrm]

Its fairly easy to efficiently fill most of your HQ/troop/elite slots at a relatively low point level. Once you’ve peaked, however, any other points you spend aren’t going to contribute all THAT much to your army – a 1850-point Ork army isn’t all that much more effective compared to a 1500-point Ork army.

???

Sure, Orks can run out of slots pretty quickly if all they take are cheap units. But they can also take some very expensive units too! Like the 4 Battlewagon list I saw at 'Ard Boyz R2 with mega-armored Nobs inside. 4 units inside 4 vehicles at 2500 pts. I'd call that plenty competitive.

[SandWyrm]

I've read Chumbalaya's response to the posts, and I've got to say, I don't see him doing much chest beating. He certainly hasn't issued any proclaimations on himself being a TRUE 40K Master. In fact he's been clear that he's interested in hearing other peoples opinions on the subject, and pretty clear in politely stating his opinion.......so where exactly is this coming from?

Every single time Orks win in a tourney, the *****k crowd says one or both of the following:

1) Orks won, so the other players must have sucked (didn't mech up, whatever...).
2) Orks won, so the tourney must have been crap.

Both of which strike me as delusional. We don't play in a perfect little chess-like world of uber-lists, determinative die rolls, and master players. There's always going to be a spread of different luck, abilities, and pocketbooks at any tourney you go to. Likewise, some tourneys will have different focuses and TO abilities than others. That's life. That's the game we play.

Chumbalaya is being far more polite than *****k would be on this subject, and many kudos to him for that. He's a class act. But the undelying conceit is the same. And I think it's a strange denial of the objective reality.

[Commander Vimes]

On the subject of Tau.

We got hit in the face hard by 5th Edition. There are a few things that can work for us now, but it is very different than we used to function and the learning curve is like scaling a cliff. Most players haven't caught on to the fact that Fire Warriors are awful and Kroot are absolutely necessary. I swear I'm the only Tau player in Colorado who focuses on Kroot and I'm also pretty sure I'm the only one who wins more than I lose. Tau are solid because we can kill mech at range better than anyone else so the metagame favors us. We have a glaring problem with objectives though. It is very hard to shift a resilient unit like Plague Marines off an objective or to capture an objective in the open. We don't have a good resilient unit. Broadsides run if you kill the drones with alarming frequency and Kroot at ld7 make one check a game if I'm lucky. I win a lot of games against people because they see Tau and expect an easy win. They don't expect 60 Kroot, being bogged down by a Shas'O, or me holding everything in reserve until turn 5.

Overall I think Orks are superior, I like my Tau against anything but Nob Bikers, but the Orks have resilient scoring units and can force an enemy off an objective. One Rhino tank shocking won't knock them off the objective. That said, I think there are some good points to be made that the Ork Codex is overrated. Orks are predictable and they have obvious weaknesses to exploit. I think that their dominance on the tournament scene will gradually recede.

[mercer]

(it's codices, not "codii"-- that isn't a word)

Regardless, however, I actually dispute the claim that they aren't competitive, or even that they have a disadvantage. They have a different style, at most-- the style itself is not a disadvantage.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Melissa. Orks don't have any reliable anti tank, against armour 14 they especially struggle. They have power klaws and dread mobs, but they need to get up close and personal. Only other things are rokkits, which can only penetrate armour 14 and other armour becomes tougher, and on BS2 as well? Lootas are good for light armoured vehicles, armour 12 really.

Another disadvantage is transport. You have the battlewagon as dedicated transport for nobz and meganobz, thats ok. But anything else in the elite slot forget about it - foot slogging burnas? The battlewagon can be taken as a transport, but you only get three of them as its heavy support and the looted wagon isn't good with the special rule as its uncontrolable. Sure boyz get trukks, but honestly 12 in a trukk when orks need numbers - loose a few orks and that fearless is out the window. Also 35 points for a open topped armour 10 all the way around fast vehicle isn't that good. Sure you move quicker, the its got the same protection as a wet paper bag.

Those IMO are a disadvantage for orks, especially if your trying to take a mech list as trukks aren't a good transport and battlewagons eat through heavy support choices. Fixes would be a stronger trukk, perhaps armour 12 at the front and then 10 on the side and rear. Allow other units to take trukks, and also battlewagons as dedicated support for boyz - though same rule about the killkannon as for nobz and meganobz.

[The Green Git]

Every single time Orks win in a tourney, the *****k crowd says one or both of the following:

1) Orks won, so the other players must have sucked (didn't mech up, whatever...).
2) Orks won, so the tourney must have been crap.

Both of which strike me as delusional. We don't play in a perfect little chess-like world of uber-lists, determinative die rolls, and master players. There's always going to be a spread of different luck, abilities, and pocketbooks at any tourney you go to. Likewise, some tourneys will have different focuses and TO abilities than others. That's life. That's the game we play.

Chumbalaya is being far more polite than *****k would be on this subject, and many kudos to him for that. He's a class act. But the undelying conceit is the same. And I think it's a strange denial of the objective reality.

Now now... don't go clouding the issue with facts. Teh Innerwebz sez Orks are the Suxx0rs so it must be true.

Of course The Internet does not seem to hold sway around here, since Orks win a lot of games and tourneys.

[Melissia]

I have to respectfully disagree with you Melissa. Orks don't have any reliable anti tank, against armour 14 they especially struggle. They have power klaws and dread mobs, but they need to get up close and personal. Only other things are rokkits, which can only penetrate armour 14 and other armour becomes tougher, and on BS2 as well? Lootas are good for light armoured vehicles, armour 12 really.
AV14 all around is always very expensive. Most vehicles can easillyb e popped by a power klaw if they prove to be troublesome. I once saw an entire squadron of Leman Russ tanks destroyed in one round of assault by a Boyz squad.


The battlewagon can be taken as a transport, but you only get three of them as its heavy support and the looted wagon isn't good with the special rule as its uncontrolable. So why take the looted wagon? Take the battlewagon instead.

And let's face it, no matter what the theorycrafting says, Orks still win. Consistently.

[Chumbalaya]

I try not to go along with the internet's prevailing sentiment, or at least question it before making my own call. According to the internet, JotWW is overpowered, Codex Creep exists, and Orks are competitive. I don't buy any of that.

A PK does not pop AV14 consistently, unless it's a charging Warboss against a static Land Raider and even that isn't a gimme.

Warboss vs immobile AV14 = .67 destroyed results
vs LR moving 6" = .33 destroyed
vs LR moving 12" = .11

And that's the best chance Orks have of nailing AV14, besides Deff Rollas and lucky Zzap/SAG hits.

I've had my Warboss blow up an entire Russ squadron on his own too, all 3 tanks. My opponent did not move them, squadron'd them in the first place, and the rear armor is 10. Does that mean that Warbosses are the ultimate AV14 destroyers, or that my opponent played like a chump? I'm thinking the latter. If he had moved 12", I may have destroyed 1 tank, then the rest of the squadron would be free to destroy my clumped up mob next turn.

I don't know where the disconnect is. Most times I see Orks winning tournies, it's a soft score fest or the competition is still an edition behind, that or the guy running Orks is really good. I guess it depends on what one would consider competitive. If it's just winning tournies, regardless of how inconsistent and uncompetitive they are, then I guess Orks would qualify. I don't go for the lowest common denominator. Any army run by a good player can tear apart a poor player's army, that doesn't make the army good, just the player. Any army can win overall if soft scores account for 60% of it, doesn't mean they're good either, just pretty and run by a nice fella.

[mercer]

AV14 all around is always very expensive. Most vehicles can easillyb e popped by a power klaw if they prove to be troublesome. I once saw an entire squadron of Leman Russ tanks destroyed in one round of assault by a Boyz squad.

So why take the looted wagon? Take the battlewagon instead.

And let's face it, no matter what the theorycrafting says, Orks still win. Consistently.

Its expensive for a reason, but with its expensive or not isn't the point. The point is orks can't crack it. Vehicles can be popped by power klaws, armour 14 can't, easily. Well I have no doubts that a entire ork mob destroyed a squadron of leman russ as they are not armour 14 on the rear, and tanks are weaker in squadons so thats easily done. The leman russ example doesn't go for armour 14. Nobz on the charge will need a 5+ to pen a a warboss a 4+, you're hoping that a few models can do the job. You haven't got enough claws for the job. So, unfortunately armour is a problem for the reasons I mentioned, ranged more than close combat.

Thats my point about the looted wagon - it has **** rules narrowing transport options down to 2, and for 90 points the battlewagon is kind of expensive. It wants to be a land raider, at a points cost and other costs.

Orks may still win, at tournaments. But tournaments appear still to be using lash, nob bikers and other stuff from yester-year. How the game is starting to change with mech armies yester-years lists struggle, such as orks. So, yeah, they win and I'm not arguing about that. I'm saying against mech armies more than anything orks have a tough time.

Chumby I've just read your post and its a mirror image of mine. How does a S9 nob wreck a land raider, hell a S10 boss doesn't have much chance (thanks for the mathammer). Leman russes in a squadron and rear armour 10 and keeping them still, bah deserves to get his tanks wrecked lol. Guy who I usually play against worked this out half way through the game and kept moving tanks so I at least hit on a 4+. Just common and simple tactics, should be common knowledge really.

The problem is, mainly, the competition is a edition behind, lash and nob bikers along with nid swarms are still for the win. Take the new mech lists and lash can't do nothing and others are no where near as affective.

[DarkLink]

I try not to go along with the internet's prevailing sentiment, or at least question it before making my own call. According to the internet, JotWW is overpowered, Codex Creep exists, and Orks are competitive. I don't buy any of that.

A PK does not pop AV14 consistently, unless it's a charging Warboss against a static Land Raider and even that isn't a gimme.

Warboss vs immobile AV14 = .67 destroyed results
vs LR moving 6" = .33 destroyed
vs LR moving 12" = .11

And that's the best chance Orks have of nailing AV14, besides Deff Rollas and lucky Zzap/SAG hits.

I've had my Warboss blow up an entire Russ squadron on his own too, all 3 tanks. My opponent did not move them, squadron'd them in the first place, and the rear armor is 10. Does that mean that Warbosses are the ultimate AV14 destroyers, or that my opponent played like a chump? I'm thinking the latter. If he had moved 12", I may have destroyed 1 tank, then the rest of the squadron would be free to destroy my clumped up mob next turn.

I don't know where the disconnect is. Most times I see Orks winning tournies, it's a soft score fest or the competition is still an edition behind, that or the guy running Orks is really good. I guess it depends on what one would consider competitive. If it's just winning tournies, regardless of how inconsistent and uncompetitive they are, then I guess Orks would qualify. I don't go for the lowest common denominator. Any army run by a good player can tear apart a poor player's army, that doesn't make the army good, just the player. Any army can win overall if soft scores account for 60% of it, doesn't mean they're good either, just pretty and run by a nice fella.

I don't think too many people will argue that Orks are good at killing LR's. But this is a case of knowing when to ignore a unit (like ignoring a monolith to go for phase-out with necrons).

As a Grey Knight player, the only way for me to mechanize is to take Land Raiders. My 1000pt list has 2 Land raiders, a Brother Captain and two 6 man Grey Knight squads. My 1500 pts list has 3 Land Raiders, 5 Terminators and 2 8man Grey Knight squads.

Sure, and ork player might not be able to blow up my transports very well, but if I ever hop out of the LR's (or if he does manage to pop one), I have so few models that I'll be swarmed quickly. It's not an auto win for the orks, but taking LR's aren't an auto-win for me, either, because of how many points those LR's take up.


On a side note, one of my favorite games I've played was my 1000pt list (mentioned above) against an ork horde. IIRC, he had 30 grots, 20 Storm Boyz, a 30 and a 20 Boy mob and a Warboss on a bike. 101 models, against my 15. It was a great game, him trying to get through my LR's (he blew one up) and me trying to kill his overwhelming numbers. Game ended with me winning. I had a LR and my Brother Captain left, he had about 10 ork boyz and a nob left.

[Chumbalaya]

You can ignore a Monolith because it doesn't do much damage and you can Phase it out. Land Raiders have a lot more guns, more dangerous guns, and generally have dangerous units inside. Since the vehicle can more or less run around with impunity, it can maneuver to get in the best position and smash their units one by one. Since you have the vehicle, you have the initiative and he is forced to react, which is never a good thing.

[Melissia]

Chumbalaya: While it is true that popularity does not make an argument valid, it also does not make it invalid. Just because something is "internet lore" or whatever crap label you want to apply doesn't mean it's untrue, either. Remember that.

[Chumbalaya]

But of course, that's why I encourage people to make their own conclusions.

[MajorSoB]

This lame post is like the Energizer Bunny....it keeps going and going!

Orks are tough and highly competitive. Sure sisters have the ability to get alot of flame based weapons which Orks hate but once engaged in HTH they fall in handfulls to the Green Tide.

You own the army but remain unconvinced just how burly they are, strange. If you PM me I will do my best to schedule you against three of the premier Ork armies is our area. Neither player uses a tooled out list but they both play tough. Maybe after seeing the tactics, etc that they employ you might have a change in heart.

I follow your mathhammer arguement on landraiders vs claws and it still seems pretty damn good to me. Orks were designed to be unpredictable but tough and they play just like that. Sure there is some luck involve in playing this army but luck enters into every game. Wave after wave of 30 boyz is quite solid too remember that!

[Chumbalaya]

Sure, I'd love to meet new players, should be fun.

[DarkLink]

You can ignore a Monolith because it doesn't do much damage and you can Phase it out. Land Raiders have a lot more guns, more dangerous guns, and generally have dangerous units inside. Since the vehicle can more or less run around with impunity, it can maneuver to get in the best position and smash their units one by one. Since you have the vehicle, you have the initiative and he is forced to react, which is never a good thing.

Well, if you have one land raider, that's one dangerous unit (and LR's don't have that many guns to matter against orks, except the redeemer really). You can afford to wait for that one dangerous unit to jump out and kill something, then swarm it.

If you have more than one land raider, you're spending a lot of points that aren't getting spent on bodies. You might have two or three dangerous units that can get the charge, but that's about all you're going to have, so once they do jump out and kill something, they can still get swarmed.

Land Raiders are good vs orks, but they're also so expensive that they hurt the other parts of your list, evening the playing field again.

[Chumbalaya]

It depends on the points level. At 1850 and up you can bring 2 of the suckers and still get by quite well.

Librarian
2x 5 TH/SS Termies, 1 dedicated LRC
2x Tac squads in Rhinos
Scout Squad (camo, snipers)
2x MM/HF Speeders
2x dakka Preds
LRC

That's 1850

[slaterthehater]

Chum, i agree with all of the weaknesses of the ork list you described. Reliable ork anti armor is pretty much non existent, many of the unit options in the codex must be immediately excused from competative play because of special rules that make them unpredictable, and alot of their "specialty" units are a bit overpriced for what they do. However to say "Orks are not competitive" seems to be an overstatement imo. They have a solid troop choice, powerful HQs, open-topped vehicles, solid CC stats on all units, which all adds up to one of the best CC armys in the game. Now that everyone is going mech, the major weakness of the orks ( no anti armor ) will definatley be put under the spotlight. I think they will do worse in tournament settings as time passes if trends continue the way they are now. Not to mention, the IG codex is a pretty hard counter to the ork codex, and lots of people play IG. So, to sum it all up, i agree with you for the most part chum, i just think "orks are not competitive" is to strong. "Orks are... mildly.... competitive" sounds a bit better.

[SandWyrm]

"Orks are... mildly.... competitive" sounds a bit better.

They're the Diet Coke of Competitive. :)

As opposed to Grey Knights, which are somewhat um... Shasta! Or Blood Angels who are very Tab!

[Chumbalaya]

"Orks are... mildly.... competitive" sounds a bit better.

I'll agree with that. The title is a good way to drag people in, what better way to get discussion going than make a statement people want to refute?

Orks are mildly competitive when you don't bring anything they have difficulty with :P

[DarkLink]

I'll agree with that. Orks have weaknesses and strong units both, and come out about even in terms of power. They're somewhere in the middle of the pack, depending on the player.

[AirHorse]

How could you possibley say orks arent competative, thats rediculous! Orkes can never lose a battle. If they win, they win, if they die they die fighting so it doesnt count. If they run for it they dont lose either, because they can come back for another shot!

[RocketRollRebel]

I'll agree with that. The title is a good way to drag people in, what better way to get discussion going than make a statement people want to refute?

Orks are mildly competitive when you don't bring anything they have difficulty with :P

Okay I still disagree with you that arnt competative but I'll hit you up for future advice. When facing a Mek w/kff green tide what do you kill first? The kanz spread out in front of the boyz giving them cover saves while getting one themselves, the boyz who are all getting cover saves (thanks to the kanz and terrain)? Thats what stomped me out of 2nd place at the GT haha. I went for the kans which I'm not sure if that was the best choice since they absorbed 3 turns of shooting which didnt even kill all of them outright by the end of the game :(. I dunno maybe if I had hellhounds instead of banewolves...

[drummerholt1234]

I'll agree with that. Orks have weaknesses and strong units both, and come out about even in terms of power. They're somewhere in the middle of the pack, depending on the player.

...and who they are playing against.

[slaterthehater]

Okay I still disagree with you that arnt competative but I'll hit you up for future advice. When facing a Mek w/kff green tide what do you kill first? The kanz spread out in front of the boyz giving them cover saves while getting one themselves, the boyz who are all getting cover saves (thanks to the kanz and terrain)? Thats what stomped me out of 2nd place at the GT haha. I went for the kans which I'm not sure if that was the best choice since they absorbed 3 turns of shooting which didnt even kill all of them outright by the end of the game :(. I dunno maybe if I had hellhounds instead of banewolves...

I think few would disagree that the 180 ork list is a powerful presence on the table. This list, however, is not without its weaknesses. For starters, footslogging orks are very slow. If the guy is screening his orks with kans, hes slowing them down even more since the kan wall will prevent his guys from running. Kans have decent shooting as far as ork units go, and they have power weapons but their WS is 2 so they have trouble hitting things in CC. If you have a mech IG army you should have no problems rolling up on his flanks and popping orks while ignoring the kans. If you play your cards right, and you have your units in transports he should have alot of trouble getting the charge off on you, especially with his kan wall slowing his ork boyz down. Out maneuvering them is the key to victory. Darkwynns leafblower list tabled a 180 ork list in the first round of ard boyz finals. Check out his battle report for more pointers.

[DarkLink]

I think few would disagree that the 180 ork list is a powerful presence on the table. This list, however, is not without its weaknesses. For starters, footslogging orks are very slow. If the guy is screening his orks with kans, hes slowing them down even more since the kan wall will prevent his guys from running. Kans have decent shooting as far as ork units go, and they have power weapons but their WS is 2 so they have trouble hitting things in CC. If you have a mech IG army you should have no problems rolling up on his flanks and popping orks while ignoring the kans. If you play your cards right, and you have your units in transports he should have alot of trouble getting the charge off on you, especially with his kan wall slowing his ork boyz down. Out maneuvering them is the key to victory. Darkwynns leafblower list tabled a 180 ork list in the first round of ard boyz finals. Check out his battle report for more pointers.

Kanz can run to, unless they have some rule preventing them from doing so (by default, walkers can run, pg 72 BRB). So I don't see why the Kanz would slow the Boyz down, barring poor rolls.

Anyways, "playing your cards right" is key to any game of 40k, regardless of the armies involve.

[Chumbalaya]

Okay I still disagree with you that arnt competative but I'll hit you up for future advice. When facing a Mek w/kff green tide what do you kill first? The kanz spread out in front of the boyz giving them cover saves while getting one themselves, the boyz who are all getting cover saves (thanks to the kanz and terrain)? Thats what stomped me out of 2nd place at the GT haha. I went for the kans which I'm not sure if that was the best choice since they absorbed 3 turns of shooting which didnt even kill all of them outright by the end of the game :(. I dunno maybe if I had hellhounds instead of banewolves...

Kanz are pretty fragile even with the KFF, squadron rules and AV11 hurt bad.

As for the boyz themselves, like I said earlier, stay inside your rides that they can't pop, push them around and burninate/blast/assault them. Whittles down the numbers, ignores or mitigates cover, and you make Fearless work against them.

[Aldramelech]

Ive played three games against my regular Ork opponent since I started my Guard and in all three he has fielded 1 Kan. It has survived all three games (albeit damaged in one form or another) and thats with me fielding a Vanquisher in the last one!

Fragile? Ohhh I don't think so! lol

[Chumbalaya]

I'd just call that good (or bad, depending on your point of view) luck, it happens to everyone. If all the armor brought to the table is AV11 walker squadrons, IG of all armies (more like Codex: Autocannons ;)) shouldn't have a problem, unless some crazy dice rolls come into account.

[RocketRollRebel]

Yeah the exterminator was even having a hard time with them and their cover saves. Plus I had things happen like a lone war buggy peniteaiting the side of a demolisher and wrecking it!

[Chumbalaya]

Ouch lol, that kind of stuff always happens to me at the worst times.

I had Grots nail a Daemon Prince with Grot Blastas, doesn't make them MC hunters though ;)

[Ming]

Kans....Kans....a single kan is better than a terminator. A squadron of three kans will take down a squad of 5 terminators. And their armor is 12-11-10...

[Katie Drake]

Kans....Kans....a single kan is better than a terminator. A squadron of three kans will take down a squad of 5 terminators. And their armor is 12-11-10...

Nope, Kans don't have front armor that thick.

[DarkLink]

Ouch lol, that kind of stuff always happens to me at the worst times.

I had Grots nail a Daemon Prince with Grot Blastas, doesn't make them MC hunters though ;)

One game one of our players had a fully decked out Hive Tyrant against orks (old codex). The Tyrant jumped into cover to minimize the chance of an ork assault, but took a wound from dangerous terrain. Then, next turn the ork warboss shot it with his slugga, putting another wound on it (despite the 5+ to hit, 6+ to wound, and a 2+ save). That was rather funny.

[mercer]

Shockingly I won with my Orks the other day. Check the battle reports forum for a report.

[Ferrett]

I find 'luck' as an excuse to be.... poor. My lady, (who rolls the dice favourably), is nice to listen to, but orks hide amoungst their epic slicyness a layer of... shokky. What does a land raider fear in an ork army? One SAG, pfft - 9 and above is a rare roll (9/36 off the top of my head), zapp gunn, they're scared, same chance... (except a battery cost 60 points for 3 with 12 miss chances) That biker boss, probably dead by the time it reachers the raider and even hen the maths is bad.... Or you could take a warphead, 1 in 6 chance for a failure....

Now stop and think for a moment. What happens when instead of constantly duplicating units I take 3 from above and say a zapp cannon on a battlewagon? Maybe add in some tankbustas if the fellow is not brimming 250 point mechs. Am I scared now? No. Because as an ork I have a fighting chance. Whoops my SAG scatters - usually onto something else important and theirs. My zapp cannon goes low... I still do glancing damage. (6 Black Knighted Dreadnaughts and counting (weapon destroyed, weapon destroyed immobalised)) Even then I haven't counted the rokkits....

Then again, my biggest problem will always be a Mephiston/Dante combo

[Chumbalaya]

SAG has to not scatter, roll 2D6 for Strength, then 2D6 picking the highest for damage. At the lowest you'll need S9 and a 6 to penetrate, at best you can get an auto-pen with doxcars.

Zzap has to hit, roll 2D6 for Strength, then only 1D6 to damage. Getting a 9+ on 2D6 is not great odds then you need a 6 for S9, 5+ for S8 or 4+ for S10. They can only shake if it was possible to damage the vehicle, so S7 or less does nothing.

Zzaps on Battlewagons are only BS2 and rokkit can't even penetrate a Land Raider. And thanks to glory hogs, they can run a smoked Rhino or whatever up front to force your fire into it.

I know what you're saying,and yes, dice rolls can't be predicted, but averages can be expected. It's part and parcel of the game, for Orks moreso than any other army (unless you play Possessed and Spawn-spam Chaos, lol). When we're looking at what makes an army competitive, reliability is a big factor. Orks, with their best AT heavily reliant on luck, are not reliable at popping heavy armor. That hurts them and is why I consider them sub-par in terms of competitiveness. Zzap Gunz and the SAG are a lot of fun to use, but in a tournament setting I would prefer something I can count on.

Now, as for Bangles, they will present big problems to a foot Ork army. Lots of mobile assaulters with furious charge and preferred enemy will slaughter Orks in HtH (just a basic 10 man squad will kill something in the realm of 13 boyz on the charge, 17 if you factor in a Sergeant and firing pistols beforehand). The best chance we've got against that is shooting and using heavy vehicles like BW, too bad they're open-topped and AV10 on the rear, plus BA get plenty of meltas and reliable AT.

[Ferrett]

A slight detour if I may, but as you seem to know how they don't work, mayhaps you could PM me with a suggestion on how to fix my problem. Btw, reliability = predictibility. Predictability = countered. Countered = dead.

[TheKellector]

Zzaps on Battlewagons are only BS2 and rokkit can't even penetrate a Land Raider. And thanks to glory hogs, they can run a smoked Rhino or whatever up front to force your fire into it.

I don't think this tactic would work because the Glory Hogs rule doesn't actually work like that. If there is another vehicle in the tankbustas' LOS, they could fire at it rather than the Rhino. It's a common misconception that they must fire on the closest vehicle.

[SandWyrm]

A slight detour if I may, but as you seem to know how they don't work, mayhaps you could PM me with a suggestion on how to fix my problem. Btw, reliability = predictibility. Predictability = countered. Countered = dead.

logic == fail

reliability != predictability

Reliable troops can be played unpredictably. Unreliable troops can also be played very predictably.

[Melissia]

Repentia are a good example of that. They are unreliable and predictable. Unreliable because they suck, predictable because they really only have one purpose, rush forward and die while attempting to get into melee with their eviscerators, occasionally doing some mild damage if the enemy ignores them.

[Lazarus15]

If you don't think Orks are competitive, and for some reason, don't believe their constant tourney and GT wins, then try playing against a Nob/Nob Biker Army that is built for tourneys. That army rapes faces for practically EVERY army.

Simply put the strategy is this, equip a nob biker unit completely different for every model. That gets you seven to eight bikers I believe. Put a pain boy in the unit, which grants feel no pain and the ability for a 5+ invul. Throw in a war boss. Now the retardation begins.

Because every model is different in the unit, wounds can be spread out so that the combat effectiveness of the unit is still operating at 100% even though they may have taken 8 wounds. Also the minimum strength in the unit is 6, 7 on the charge. They have 4-5 attacks each and a toughness of 5. They also move flat out in one turn, and the next turn can charge. Couple that with the 4+armor (cover), feel no pain, 5+ invul, and it gets real dumb.

Now have two of these squads and two rather large units of nobs equipped VERY similarly in battle waggons and watch what happens. Lastly add in any other unit to fill in points. Oh and ALL of these units are scoring seeing as how they are all troops thanks to the twin warbosses. This army is ridiculously good. You can theory hammer in all day, but play it and you will immediately see what I mean.

[Chumbalaya]

Yeah, not so much.

For all the hype, Nob Bikers get demolished by any S8+ shooting and vehicles. A Battle Cannon dropped on their heads will kill 5/12 of any Nob it hits (5/18 if they boosted), after a round or two that unit is hurting. Once you've knock down their numbers, they are no longer Fearless and susceptible to Tank Shock and other morale effects (hello Battle Psykers/Psychic Scream!). They still aren't much better at nailing tanks either. Against a Land Raider, even with 10 models with PKs and a Boss you will get on average .37 destroyed results from the Nobs and .11 from the Boss, so not even a 50/50 shot.

Nob Bikers are the perfect example of a rock army: completely one-dimensional. They will smash armies not built to handle them, but any balanced list run by somebody halfway competent will see them off.

And you're looking at the proud owner of about 7 of the buggers ;)

[VinceBlack]

Ive had many a fun game facing off against orks. They are a fast, hard hitting army that has quite a few options and doesn't suffer from the animosity rule their fantasy counterparts do. If you want to be on the winning end of assaults orks are a great army, shooting leaves a bit to be desired but they do hit hard.

[MarshalAdamar]

I play Orks and I've had no problems with other armies. Any of them. That’s not to say I've never been beaten but never badly and not often.

I've seen all kinds of well if then that in this thread. If you plan on beating a unit then you can beat it it’s not that amazing of a revelation, but I submit that if face off against an Ork player and neither of you have tooled your armies up to fight one another it will a close game.

[Slann]

Orks are great and are one of the better books in the current rules .