Getting Used to Space Marines - Teach Me Terminators

[ElectricPaladin]

So, I just finished my second game with my new 'nilla Marines army (painted as Blood Ravens). One of the interesting pieces of feedback I got from my opponent was that I didn't use my terminator squad aggressively enough. He said that instead of deep striking them conservatively, where they could advance cautiously, hug cover, and use their shooting, I should have struck them somewhere where they could try to assault their way along the side of his flank, forcing him to divert his army from the objective game to deal with them.

I was curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

For whatever it's worth, my opponent was playing IG with tanks and foot soldiers, no transports.

In general, I feel like terminators are not something I know how to use. I'm comfortable with rhinos and marines, with tanks, and I think I know how to use a sternguard squad - and how and when to sacrifice them. Terminators, though, I have less experience with, especially the shooty kind. How does one use them?

Thanks in advance.

[Psychosplodge]

I'd suggest if you were doing that use assault terminators...

[Wolfshade]

I did this, I then realised that my 2+ was better than a 4+ cover (though admittedly 4+ cover is better than 5+ invulenerable). I tend now to field my shoot termies having them deploy right at the front of my deployment zone and have them advance straight at the enemy, they are brilliantly durable, but remember you will still lose one or two to massed flashlights, give someone enough dice and they will fail a test. As much as I love Assault Cannon I think that the Cyclone Missile launcher is the better option. What usually happens is that my opponent then faces this menace and either throws everything at them or moves out of the way so that they avoid targets. If they do concentrate on terminator removal then the rest of the army avoids a lot of flakk, if they choose to avoid them well they can stroll into tanks or cc. All the while chucking out lots of S4 storm bolter shots.

I tend to have a 10 man squad with Librarian it is expensive but if you are going to do something you may as well drop everything you can. The biggest worry for me is my mates AP2 pie plates which can be nasty, so my unit tends to wander as a long thin line

[Anggul]

Shooty Terminators are indeed a difficult one. They're far too split. You want to use their firepower, but you also want to use their power fists. This is bad for any squad, which is why people usually take Assault Terminators instead. With them you know what you're doing and aren't paying points for two things which will only be half used, you're paying for one thing which they will only use, which is more efficient. It's like the fact that you don't mix Blasters and Splinter Cannons in a Kabalite Trueborn squad. You're paying more points, and the preferred target of one is the opposite of the other (MCs aside), so you're going to have a hard time deciding which to shoot at, and whichever you choose you'll be wasting points.

I suppose if you Deep Strike within 24" you'll still get at least two rounds of shooting before making close combat, which is decent.

[pauljc]

Right now I'm playing around with SW Wolf Guard terminators, so while the loadouts might be different, the overall tactics remain largely the same. Also, I'm not a tourney player. Just for fun - ***-kicking fun.

My current loadout is 3 Wolf Guard in Terminator armour, plus Wolf Lord and Rune Priest. The Wolf Guard run a shoot/melee mix. Combi weapons, plus power weapons and Frost blades.

So far, in about 10 games experience, there is absolutely nothing wrong with deep-striking, or drop-podding shooty terminators.
This is for two reasons:
1. You can deliver the shooty more or less precisely where you want it. Definitely works for my Wolf Guard, because I can deliver the melta-combi exactly where it's needed. After that, the unit is up-close and personal, and has the survivability to make it into close combat.(1.b. I scares the crap out of a lot of people, who then suddenly start to shift tactics and focus)

2. You can't assault from deep-strike, so I wouldn't run deep-strike Termies with close combat weapons. Better off sticking them in a Land Raider.

Here's one example of a shooty option:
Terminators, including heavy flamer. Drop pod. (Even slap on the Deathwind upgrade if you have the points).
Dreadnought with heavy flamer, and twin-linked heavy flamer. Drop pod.

Drop them both into a target area, such as massed infantry, and low AV vehicles. Proceed to watch the promethium goodness unfold!
Sure, you're going to lose those terminators eventually. But it will take some frustrating effort on your opponent's side. And by the time all the Termie's are dead, they will have easily made up for their points cost in fiery death. Also, even a lone Terminator can smack face.

I've been playing 40K since Rogue Trader, and been running game stores for about 15 years. One thing I see a lot of people do, especially when they start out with Marines, is that they tend to be all meek about it. Deploying safely, on the backline, and letting them shoot.
Nothing wrong with that, but Space Marines are an elite strike force, and even vanilla Codex Marines have the tools to do what Marines do in the fluff: drop right into the middle of an enemy force, and tear out it's heart.

For one, it's a lot of fun, and two, it can be tactically satisfying. But you just gotta have balls to do it.

[Wolfshade]

One of the major draw backs of teleporting, is that you have to arrange them all in concentric circles which are usally small enough for pie plates to completly cover, especially at AP2 goodness

[ElectricPaladin]

So, to summarize:

1) Yes, I should consider deploying/deep striking terminator squads more aggressively so that my opponent must deal with them - but they're both hard to kill and can't hold objectives, anyway - or chose to ignore them and suffer the consequences.

2) Rushing terminator squads into combat is a perfectly viable way to use them against an opponent whose close combat effectiveness I am not concerned about. Relatedly...

3) This is part of why many people prefer melee terminators, and I should consider getting them (author's note: this isn't going to happen soon, since I don't want want jack my melee terminators from my Blood Angels, who want them even more, so I need to wait until I feel like spending the budget on them).

4) Also, I need to accept that this is a unit with split capabilities, and I'm cheating myself if I only make use of half of them - also, they are very nearly durable enough to deal with two turns of enemy fire as they make their way into melee range, especially as for shooty terminators, they're dealing death during these two turns, too.

[pauljc]

Pretty much, yeah. Thats my opinions of course. I personally find that a mix gives me more options at various ranges.

Deep-striking into the heart of an enemy is dangerous as hell. But that's what you get paid for as a Marine (figuratively-speaking). Terminators aren't there to bimble around the back, being cautious. Ok, some tactics might call for timing and finesse. But you get my point. Termies are elite veterans of the Space Marines. Each a warrior of immense skill and bravery. Ceramite balls and all that.

Hell, if I could, I would purposefully crash my Drop Pods into things, and damn the consquences. Because I can just imagine Space Wolves doing that for jokes and bets.

And, don't forget, your opponent may have AP2 pie-plates, but if you suddenly appear within a few inches of his tanks and troops, dropping those blasts becomes a risky business venture. ;)

Balls-out bravery can be more tactical that people think.

Also, people underestimate heavy flamers.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, given how dangerous it is to be a terminator, should I consider not fielding a terminator librarian as my HQ? Or is the combination powerful enough that I shouldn't worry about giving up the occasional Slay the Warlord Victory Point?

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, people underestimate heavy flamers.

I just bought a pair of terminators on eBay so I can kitbash them into a heavy flamer terminator and a second chainfist terminator (It's a cheap upgrade, and I feel like my squad should have a spare). Ah, bits on eBay... what would I do without you?

Also, now I've got about 15 to 20 points to reconfigure, now that I've decided not to go with teleport homers. It's a neat trick, but now that it seems like I'm more likely to teleport my terminators aggressively I seem less likely teleport them to somewhere near my tactical squads.

[Seirin]

@Pauljc comparing wolves to vanilla is a little off, especially the pod route as vanilla termies don't get the option.

2 chainfists are good, as you say a spare can be useful. No more than 2 though, you'll never really need them.

Cyclones and assault cannons both have uses, imo. Heavy flamers are either superb or weak, depending on the opponent. Against any infantry with a 4+ or lower they really rock. Against infantry with a 3+ or better, they pretty much suck. 1 shot before combat and no overwatch due to relentless will not beat the other options in that situation, and against hordes you'll likely be deploying further back anyway, giving the cyclone the advantage with its shot options. Underestimating flamers isn't my weakness, but as a reverse of Pauljc's sentiment, many people swear too blindly on them.

Not going to question the sanity in dropping a 5 man terminator unit with 2 charas in there into the heart of the enemy...

Terminator librarian's are the only way marines have atm to make a libby tough, and they contribute more than any other non named chara unless your captain is making your bikes scoring. In other words, keep him.

As to your original question. You do need to be aggressive, but tactical terminators are good for their balance. You need to play them by ear and situation. Deep striking into a guard line is a good plan, but into a nid line you're throwing your unit away. Deploying normally against orcs is a good idea, it adds more shooting to your army. Against dark eldar it leaves them stuck footslogging to get into the thick of it, while your opponent shoots the hell out of them. Etc~

Basically, if its gonna kill you close up, don't get close, but if its gonna shoot you, get in its face asap.

[pauljc]

Yeah, Seirin, I did state the initial caveat that while some tactics remain similar, Wolf Guard are different.

Then I wandered off on a drop-pod tangent of happy memories. :P

I can definitely agree with Seirin's tactical insights as well. I guess the best thing to do, is to pinpoint some tactical uses for Termies (assault role, shooty, deep-strike, etc), work out some loadouts, and then just run them in different games.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, right now I'm running two chainfists, an assault cannon, and a heavy flamer. I'm underwhelmed by cyclonic missile launchers, as they seem to split the purpose of the unit even further. 30 points is a lot to pay to put a long range option on a unit meant to drop close to the enemy. I'm also not thrilled with it in the context of my list. I have a lot of missiles: typhoon launchers on my two land speeders and another single launcher on my hellfire dreadnought for a total of five missiles a turn.

Anyway, what I think I want to use the terminators for is as a versatile objective-clearing unit capable of taking on enemy elites or massed enemy infantry to make way for my own troops to claim the objective - alternately, like my drop sternguard, they can be thrown away as a tactical distraction. That is, dropped on a flank to fork my opponent, forcing him to either deal with my scoring units and let my own powerful offensive units take him apart, or engage my elites and let my scoring units live to claim and contest objectives.

Two questions in that case:

1) Is this a good thing to use terminators for?
2) Does the loadout I've described achieve that purpose?

[Seirin]

@Pauljc okidoki, just highlighting the main difference.

@EP
1) Yes, though they can also be used as a speartip.
2) Try not to mix special weapons, but AC and HF are both useful in their own situation. I just prefer ACs as they have better all rounded use.

Cyclone is just useful, a tough unit with 4 missiles a turn (2 cyclones) is pretty fun.

[Kyban]

I feel like I only see shooty termies when playing against Deathwing but they can split between shooty and melee however they like and hold objectives. Melee termies are more common because they are often more survivable (storm shields) which is what termies are all about.

[ElectricPaladin]

I feel like I only see shooty termies when playing against Deathwing but they can split between shooty and melee however they like and hold objectives. Melee termies are more common because they are often more survivable (storm shields) which is what termies are all about.

I'm getting that...

Increasingly, I'm thinking that I might either invest in some stabby termies eventually, or jack the ones I already have from my blood angels (who are way more likely to use sanguinary guard in that slot, anyway, especially since they're now nearly as surviveable...). Then I can paint up a blood ravens land raider for larger games...

That said, I'm convinced that shooty termies have a role. They're good in combat, have good shooting, and good upgrades. I think it's just that they require a little more finesse than hammer terminators...

[Seirin]

Just as sanguinary guard got a boost with 6th, so did tactical terminators. Less will kill them in combat now, making them closer to hammernators in durability (granted, still notably less vs plasma, etc). They basically offer a mix of both worlds and can do both roles (shooty and combat) whereas hammers just do combat, but they do it better.

[Xenith]

First problem is that you deepstruck shooty terminators.

They are shooty. They have to be shooting from T1. There used to be a purpose in DSing 5men with 2AC behind a tank and ripping it apart, but no longer. The strike makes you lose 1-2 turns of shooting, and opens you up to a plasma cannoning.

Assault termies can DS as they have no shooting, so can run to spread out.


I'm underwhelmed by cyclonic missile launchers, as they seem to split the purpose of the unit even further. Not really.
Cyclones are awesome, as you keep the SB. And you get an additional 2 S4 blasts for killing infantry. then have the flexibility to put 4 kraks into a tank if needs be, and also let your termies reach out and touch things that are >24" away (long fangs).


I'm going to be throwing 10 tac termies into my BA army with a priest, stick them up front and advance to midfield with my tacticals behind them.

[ElectricPaladin]

First problem is that you deepstruck shooty terminators.

Isn't it sometimes useful to use deep strike as a way to put the terminators where you need them? They're a powerful expensive unit. If your opponent deploys reactively, or has some fancy redeployment power (mine did), then you can end up with almost 250 points of rage on the wrong side of the board. Terminators don't deploy in reaction to the board, because they don't claim objectives. They deploy in reaction to the enemy, because their job is to kill stuff.

Also, can't deep striking be a good way to put those rending shots into a rear armor, or a heavy flamer onto massed infantry?



Cyclones are awesome, as you keep the SB. And you get an additional 2 S4 blasts for killing infantry. then have the flexibility to put 4 kraks into a tank if needs be, and also let your termies reach out and touch things that are >24" away (long fangs).


Huh. Well, on your recommendation, I'll give it a shot. It can't hurt, and I like painting gear.

Say, do you think anyone can point me in the direction of a good tactical terminator tactica?

[ElectricPaladin]

I had an interesting game last night and I think I learned something about Terminators. My opponent fielded an blob of ten termies with two cyclonic missile launchers (and also Lysander) and had them march forward. Their cyclonics were terribly effective at range, and anything that got close enough to threaten them was shredded by their storm bolters. I had a hard time slowing them down.

I think I finally understand how to use tactical terminators, and why cyclonics are useful.

With a pair of cyclonic missile launchers, a tactical squad can march across the board, basically acting like an infantry tank. It's best to think of it more like a predator or vindicator, or maybe like a cross between a crusader and godhammer land raider. It can advance, fire powerful long range weapons, and defend itself with shredding close-range fire when necessary. With cyclonics, it's versatile, able to pop vehicles and lay blasts on infantry.

THIS is why you don't deep strike it. The potential utility of surprising your opponent or slamming cyclonics into a vehicle's side arc pale before the power of this walking ten wound tank blob that can take cover, carries a 5++ save, and unleash four 8/3 shots (or 4/6 blasts) per shooting phase.

I get it now.

[Xenith]

Good stuff :)

10 Termies is basically a walking all of death.

I used them in my BA, and they were basically there to die. the other 1500pts were there to complete the mission, the termies were there to smash into the opponent, who has to deal with them or lose the game.

[thelion]

ok so im a da player and i do like from time to time to play a death wing army so i know a thing or two about using termies so for players that dont have raven wing to support them and arnt trying to put telaport homers in every sqd my advice is a drop pod then walk them shooting right into your enemy's ranks this will cause death destruction and well draw alot of fire off of the rest of your army giving you alot of freedom to move around and do wreak havoc on your enemy

[Martel732]

I had an interesting game last night and I think I learned something about Terminators. My opponent fielded an blob of ten termies with two cyclonic missile launchers (and also Lysander) and had them march forward. Their cyclonics were terribly effective at range, and anything that got close enough to threaten them was shredded by their storm bolters. I had a hard time slowing them down.

I think I finally understand how to use tactical terminators, and why cyclonics are useful.

With a pair of cyclonic missile launchers, a tactical squad can march across the board, basically acting like an infantry tank. It's best to think of it more like a predator or vindicator, or maybe like a cross between a crusader and godhammer land raider. It can advance, fire powerful long range weapons, and defend itself with shredding close-range fire when necessary. With cyclonics, it's versatile, able to pop vehicles and lay blasts on infantry.

THIS is why you don't deep strike it. The potential utility of surprising your opponent or slamming cyclonics into a vehicle's side arc pale before the power of this walking ten wound tank blob that can take cover, carries a 5++ save, and unleash four 8/3 shots (or 4/6 blasts) per shooting phase.

I get it now.

I still prefer to use a teleport homer or locator beacon for tactical terminators. I feel that foot slogging them is just very, very hazardous for their health. I also prefer to have multiple locator beacons in a drop army to give me some choices. That way, I can probably deep strike out of LOS of any AP 2 templates. I have found it to be pretty effective to zoom a rhino with a tactical sergeant in it with a homer 24" and then on the ensuing turn, the terminators can deep strike 6" away with no scatter. This gives your terminators 30" of movement on turn 2. Of course, reserve rolls can bite you in the ***, but whole terminator squads in people's faces can be worth it.

I'm not a fan of cyclone missile launchers because I consider the krak missile to be a very sub-par anti vehicle weapon.

[Tynskel]

I still prefer Hv Flamers and Assault Cannons on my terminators.
Solid Firepower, and forces you play aggressively.


Seriously: anyone not using terminators at point-blank range are doing it wrong. Assault Weapons + lots of powerfists = close quarters fighting.

[plawolf]

I am going to go against the grain a little and say that I prefer regular shooty terminators to the hammer wielding variety.

I simply reject the suggestion that you are paying extra for shooty termies and only using half what you paid for (either shooting or in CC). Firstly, assault termies cost exactly the same as shooty ones (more in the case of BA). I see it as you getting to shoot AND assault rather than being limited to only CC.

If you used them right, and have a little luck on your side, it is perfectly feasible to expect to be able to both shoot and assault with your regular termies on any given turn. All you need to do is be able to judge how much firepower you need from supporting units to help soften up an enemy before you assault them to have a very good chance to kill that squad or cause it to break in one or two rounds of combat. Make sure the enemy squad isn't big enough to bog you down and you can expect to mop up in assault and be free to shoot and assault as normal next turn.

What more, buying assault termies is only half the cost. To get the most out of them, you will also need to invest in transport or they risk getting splatted by pie plates deep striking or just rendered toothless if the enemy just runs away from them for most of the game. Add in the cost of a land raider and suddenly the cost of the unit is far higher than regular termies.

Secondly, you need to consider just how efficient your terminators will be in most situations. Against like 90% of enemy units, your regular termies will be just as deadly in CC as hammernators. In 5th, shooty termies were at a distinct disadvantage because power weapons would have carved up a good number of them before they got to swing, and the assault termies' storm shields made a massive difference. In 6th, with the nerf to power weapons, storm shields became less of a game changer, and at the very least you should get to swing at the same time with your powerfists against most things that ignore a 2+ save.

Assault terminators will eat regular termies alive on average, but against pretty much everything else, assault termies are massive overkill. That is a problem when you only have 5-7 turns to play with, because best case scenario, you get into CC on turn 2 at the earliest. Against a decent opponent, he can throw you some speed bump units to tie your assault termies down, and reposition the rest of his force to minimize the amount of damage or impact you can have.

You can go after an objective with your termies, but what happens if the enemy just lets you have that without contest and focus his forces on the remaining objectives instead? Are you going to just camp your assault termies on that one objective doing nothing while the rest of your army gets outnumbered and creamed?

All too often, there just aren't enemy units expensive enough to allow assault termies to be points efficient, and in most of the games when there is an enemy hammer unit worth smashing with your assault termies, the other guy will be doing his level best to make sure your hammernators don't get anywhere near his deathstar if that deathstar cannot take assault termies.

There will be times when you simply wished you had taken assault termies, and there is no denying the satisfaction and superiority you will feel when you see the entire enemy army scrambling to get out of the way of your assault terminators. But in more times, your army would have benefitted more overall if you had more fire support.

This is not often appreciated because players simply discount assault terminators in shooting turns, so you tend not to realize how much all those extra turns of massed stormbolter and assault cannon/typhoon missile fire would have counted.

As a mental exercise, you can just pretend that your assault termies were regular termies next time you play with them, and just do some very rough math on how many enemies they would have taken down if they had shot all game, and then see how much of a difference that might have made to the outcome of the game overall.