Chaos Codex is out in the wild now [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Vaktathi

10-02-2012, 11:04 PM

Here's my thoughts on it so far.

Phil Kelly basically just ported his Warriors of Chaos book to 40k it feels like.

The Champions of Chaos rule in particular. Now, in Fantasy, this is fine, as Chaos heroes/lords/champions/etc are basically the baddest dudes around relative to their equivalents, they're Character killers and this focuses them on that and keeps them from butchering through units, reinforcing what they should be about and the fluff very heavily reinforces that. With Chaos Space Marines, this isn't really true, most of the armies in the game have characters of roughly equal standing and the CSM's aren't in it just for the glory of the Chaos gods but for revenge at any cost and they'd just as soon blast their enemy commander with a big cannon or overwhelm them in weeny dudes as face them head on in many cases. It feels forced. .

Overall it looks like they basically just went through, slashed some costs in some places, inexplicably raised it in others, and basically looked around and said "what are the major complaints? Oh, do this and this, it sorta fixes like one or two things and we'll add some weird looking big things and call it a Codex", with major issues remaining (dreads for example, or "hellbrutes" while not actively dangerous to you anymore, still really don't serve a purpose and are notably expensive for what they do, Thousand Sons are still ridiculously overcosted as they are now, in fact Tzeentch in general is pretty awful...)

There's some cool stuff, as much as I hate the model of the Heldrake I can dig its fluff and a lot of units like bikes and raptors got more reasonably adjusted, but a lot of other stuff just doesn't make sense, and it feels like Kelly realized "hey, I derp'd the hell out of Space Wolves in a couple places, lets not do that again" after the cat's been let out of the bag and the metagame realigned toward that paradigm for the last 3 years.

Not to mention a lot of unit costs are really weird. Combi-weapons for characters are 7pts, a a lightning claw is 17, a powerfist 22...

And we still have the issue where Marked elite units like Terminators are notably missing the same blessings as their power armored troop brothers...

At least the fluff is decent if nothing else. I'm not a fan of the re-naming of Dreadnoughts and the like, but the fluff tends to read decently from what I've seen so far.

daboarder

10-02-2012, 11:26 PM

excuse me, I have sent you both PM's regarding this topic. Just an in thread notification

cheers guys:

so couple of things:

Stealth buff on the defile, he has 3A base, plus 2 Powerfists giving 4A base, why then ever swap the Reaper auto for another power fist? he wont have 5 attacks.

you can't crunch your opponents aegis lines with your warpsmith...meh so you can bolster them but not tear them down.....sigh

Boons are frakked

Spawndom and Daemonhood work like this:

Place the model with 3', if you cannot do this (gee like in a big assault) it is removed (as a casualty). The champion is now an "unengaged non-scoring unit" so if you pop either of these in assault your fire bait in the opponents next shooting phase.
also all gear is lost in BOTH instances.....Lame

No stacking boon's once only then no effect.

Daemon weapons still hit you in the face as well as making you WS1

Characters may not join units with a different mark as expected.

nothing makes the SC's immune to spawn/daemon therefore abby and co will likely DEVALUE themselves once every couple of games.

you can get a 4++ invul, sigil of corruption for 25 pts, so a 3++ with MoT

burning brand is going to be a favourite, AP3 flamer.

yeah this isn't version 6.0 its 4.5

fuzzbuket

10-03-2012, 12:31 AM

woo best birthday present evar :P

daboarder

10-03-2012, 12:46 AM

hmmm

Lord: Burning brand, Black mace, Terminator armour, MoN

tops in at a combi weapon shy of 200....dunno might be tasty.

that brand is definately going to be a favourite, just less than a rhino and its an AP3 flamer.....overwatch FTW.

actually their seems to be a rather large increase in the cost of heavy flamers across the board.

White Tiger88

10-03-2012, 01:04 AM

Murdersword.....My new best friend when Draigo shows up :D however if its on a daemon prince and you hit a character dreadnought what happens?

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 01:05 AM

EDIT: Don't worry, thanks again though :)
Looking now, I'll post my thoughts later.

It's not all bad with turning into a Daemon Prince, you get Iron Armour (+3 armour) and the Mark you had before (funnily enough, you get it as a Spawn too). Not as bad as I thought, but that minimum movement or destroyed stuff seems a bit unfair.

The codex looks exceedingly well written, the pictures are beautiful. Whether the rules stand up or not is the question on everyone's mind I guess.
The Warpsmith and Dark Apostle don't do anything ground-breaking, just kind of what you expect. The reason the Dark Apostle is more expensive than a base Chaos Lord is undoubtedly the basic wargear he gets. The Warpsmith seems basically like a Master of the Forge, nothing fancy, but actually decent in combat.

Possessed are better, but still of debatable use. Obliterators are better. Spawn actually aren't just terminally useless, just near useless (lol).
Warp Talons are very much a precision unit to use - weight up the risks. They would work wonders against Necrons if you get lucky with your Deep Strike though
The Heldrake concept art is AWESOME!
Defilers now have 4 attacks base, and with all the new special rules I guess you can say they are a lot better - haven't looked at any costs yet though so may change that opinion.
The Helbrute is better, but again, are Dreadnoughts - unreliable ones at that - worth it in 6th Ed?

I've already discussed Abaddon, just in general though - slightly reduced combat effectiveness, really good buffs for your units - but you have to really build around his Preferred Enemy bubble to exploit it.
Huron is cool, the Tyrant's Claw is nasty now. +2 S, Armourbane, Shred, AP3. Not an anti-Terminator weapon, but he strikes at I5 now and can take down tanks/walkers and non-terminator units pretty well. Has a +4 invulnerable save too. Big buff IMO!

Kharn - HOLY COW! He strikes at Initiative order and he is still AP2! The butcher is back to his 5th ed best! S7 on the charge, S6 base. Otherwise, basically the same. Gives Hatred (Everything) to his unit, but he still can't re-roll his 1s to hit. You are looking at 7 attacks at S7 AP2 on the charge hitting on 2s. And he still has Armourbane! :eek: Also, gives his unit a +2 Deny the Witch save and still immune to force weapons. My Khorne playing friends are going to be very happy.
Ahriman - nothing new here, except I got the Black Staff's AP value wrong, it is AP4 not AP3. So, basically just like a force stave. More interested in his other stuff anyway.
Typhus - know the stuff already, except the Destroyer Hive is instead of your attacks.

Lucius - Same stats as before, and confirmation of rumours - his attacks characteristic in a challenge is the same as an opponents. So if he charges against Lelith Hesperax, he would have 11 attacks (9 base, +1 for two CCWs, +1 for the charge). Lucius has Shred, so he can re-roll to wound in combat. Aside from that, essentially the same. So basically, he is intended to be a character hunter and is actually represented that way. All in all, sounds good.
Fabius - Exactly the same basically. Enhanced Warriors is now just one unit in the army, and you don't roll a die - they just get +1 S and Fearless.

Axe of Blind Fury - pretty cool, stick it on a Chaos Lord and go to town. I don't think you would really care about the Blinded stuff, you'd still be WS5. Being S6 AP2 at I5 is well worth it with +D6 attacks (which is weird because you need the Mark of Khorne to use the weapon which grants Rage anyway.....wat lol).
The Black Mace - sounds neat, it wouldn't be all that great against marines but use it against non-marine armies and watch the literal carnage. Also good for monstrous creature hunting.
Dimensional Key - nice, but the points cost is what determines its usefulness.
Murder Sword - Oh dear. Nasty, nasty, nasty. Only one character though, but it doesn't say you have to allocate your attacks against that character - just be in base-to-base. Draigowing will weep - just have a champion with the bearer at all times to accept Draigo's challenge.
Scrolls of Magnus - hmmmm not for me. Maybe a bit too risky. However, a (small) chance you get to roll on the Divination table.

Not going to post costs, but looking at it, the Sigil (+4 invulnerable save) is worth it IMO. Artefacts are reasonably priced.
Terminator-armoured wargear is actually cheap if you replace your combat weapon - replacing your gun jacks the price up a lot - so it is like saying you have to really pay for an extra attack, which seems silly. Vehicle wargear is cheap for what they do now (ones that haven't changed are same cost), daemonic possession is cheaper. Extra armour and stuff like that are also cheaper.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 01:59 AM

DEAR GOD it costs a terminator champion THREE times the regular cost to get a pair of lightning claws because some idiot left the option to buy them at once out of the codex!

Anggul

10-03-2012, 02:10 AM

Hey I'm not complaining if it's mostly just cost cuts in places. This is what most players want in the end, to be able to use the models they have for cheaper, new models and stuff are great too, but it's the things we've already spent lots of time and money on that we want validated.

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 02:15 AM

I'll start a new post as the previous one was getting very long.

Special characters after looking at their points cost - and yes, the Marked ones make their appropriate cult units troops;

Abaddon - cheaper and arguably better overall.
Huron - cheaper and better. His Warlord trait is the D3 Infiltrate units thing.
Kharn - slightly cheaper, considering 6th ed changes, he is also better (the general loss of AP2 at initiative order makes Kharn a very unique and happy boy).
Ahriman - cheaper by a chunk, significantly better. Win/win.
Typhus - slightly more expensive, better. Fair trade.
Lucius - slightly more expensive, better.
Fabius - slightly more expensive, eh.

Lucius and Fabius don't have Warlord traits base either.

Our Chaos Lords are very, very cheap compared to a Captain, however we do have to pay for the +4 invulnerable save, which still makes us cheaper. Terminator armour is surprisingly expensive.
As it is the first 6th edition codex, maybe due to the nerf in most power weapons to be AP3 they are increasing the cost of Terminators in general?
Anyways, Chaos Lords look good, and marks are cheaper overall. Some very, very nasty combinations there.
Also completely missed the Burning Brand - awesome as it is to use Kharn's flamer, this thing is very, very nasty. As in, prepare to toast some marines!

Sorcerer Lords, we know the drill on how amazingly cheap they are compared to other codices. Also, very cheap to take Terminator armour.
All in all, I can see a lot more combinations and people making Chaos/Sorcerer Lords that are like suped-up lords. Not competitive necessarily, just fun.
I love this though for the Dark Apostle; may take veterans of the long war (free) lawl.

Basic Chaos Marines - missile launchers are slightly more expensive, everything else the same. Veterans of the Long War is 1 point per model? 10 points to give them Hatred and Leadership 9/10 for a 10 man squad is actually pretty good. Know the drill otherwise, cheap if you want, expensive if you want. Icons are well priced IMO.

Cultists - they CAN take marks! Khorne and Nurgle are 2pts per model, Slaanesh and Tzeentch 1pt per model. Yowza!
Chosen - as I thought, a 6-man squad can have 6 plasma guns if you wanted to. There's Up to Four, then there is One may take, then the Champion can take another. 6-man plasma squads with Abaddon re-rolling 1s to hit and wound against all Marines? Expensive and probably inefficient though. So, they are the same as before really, just more attacks base, same cost too.

Possessed - same cost, better. Hmmmmm still a no for me.
Terminators - talked about them earlier, just another note, marks and icons are quite a bit more expensive than for regular Chaos Marines.
Dreadnought - higher base cost, cheaper weapons, i.e. cancels out. Better than before, new weapon options. Still a Dreadnought though.
Mutilators - I think they are worthwhile if you want them. Can be nasty, but not fast. However, they can embark Rhinos - not as dedicated transports though (jump unit out, put Mutilators in).

Cult units are already known, so won't discuss them, except to say I can still live with Thousand Sons. Slightly better, so happy.
Noise Marines - much cheaper, sonic blasters are cheaper, and the blastmaster is quite a bit cheaper too. Very, very good.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 02:17 AM

Shame the axe is khorne only, it's the best by far other than the flamer.

How about a warpsmith with mot and brand. Pop 2 flamer templates on hordes or an ap3 template a meltagun into meq

Typhus is most assuredly based on MAD. Stick him in a zombie hoard hit an enemy deathstar and pop holocaust for mucho attack

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 02:24 AM

DEAR GOD it costs a terminator champion THREE times the regular cost to get a pair of lightning claws because some idiot left the option to buy them at once out of the codex!

Yeah, for whatever reason they don't want you to take paired weapons. It's as if they are like "hey Chaos Lord, keep your gun or else".
WAIT sorry scratch that, thought our basic Terminators couldn't take paired claws but they still can thankfully. Actually, paired lightning claw terminators are cheaper, so that is good. Power Fists and Chainfists are also cheaper on basic Terminators, that's good.

Agreed, Typhus looks the goods I must say.

Bikers are now good and not horrendously overpriced. Nurgle bikers are expensive though.
Spawn are useless, but not as useless as before. Can be marked.
Raptors are quite a bit cheaper, which is great. They also cause Fear, which is good in some cases but mostly is just fluffy fan service. A Khornate Raptor works out to be a point cheaper than a basic Raptor from the previous codex. Go figure.
Warp Talons - 13 points more than a Raptor for a +5 invulnerable save, two lightning claws, and the whole Blind thing. Tzeentch Warp Talons with +4 invulnerable saves FTW!
Nothing new on the Heldrake, same as before, IMO always take the baleflamer.

Havocs are going to be more common than before for sure. Cheaper heavy/special weapons, flakk missiles, same cost for marks as basic marines. Very good.
Defiler = price hike. I guess they are looking at it compared to 5th edition rules, it has gained a +5 invulnerable save, an extra attack, It Will Not Die, Fear, Daemonforge, etc. And they can take Vehicle Equipment :lol: You can't Overwatch me!
Forgefiend - now that I know the points cost, I think it is good. Balanced, not OP, not UP. A good option, and magnetizing arms will be the norm with this thing too.
Vindicators - funnily enough, a daemonically possessed one with a siege shield is the same cost as one with a dozer blade and daemonic possession from the previous codex.
Predators - slightly more expensive base, but the weapon options are a lot cheaper. It works out to be cheaper than previously once upgraded.

Overall - nothing jumps out. It is solid, and people will probably be disappointed that it seems more like an extension of the current codex. However, I am fine with it, and it looks like there will be more viable lists than just the one we had before, so that is fine by me.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 02:34 AM

Yeah they want anything to pay through the nose for +1A. Even the regular termies pay mor than double for paired LC compared to single. Gonna drop mine to single claws, they were always combat overkill with TLC snd needed to do something on the way in.

Typhus is even better when you consider he MUST take 2 nurgle powers and you need a ML3 Sorc for that normally. Not to mention the nurgle powers are among the best debuffs in the game. Never take the nurgle primaris

White Tiger88

10-03-2012, 02:37 AM

no no no you give a demon prince the Murdersword....Then find a spacewolf player playing Bjorn and enjoy the laughs that follow.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 02:42 AM

A daemon prince with wings and murder sword is going to make an awesome warlord assassin. And he doesn't need to be yours.

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 03:02 AM

A daemon prince with wings and murder sword is going to make an awesome warlord assassin. And he doesn't need to be yours.

Basically, just watch out for S10 weapons, but most S10 weapons will struggle to hit him when he is flying (or not be able to at all). And once you are in combat, go to town.
Also yeah, against Bjorn! Oh dear, make them suffer even more for taking Bjorn.....

Yeah definitely agreed re Typhus, what I love is that all the special characters actually seem viable now. Fabius is ok, Lucius is ok, Huron is good, Kharn is awesome, Typhus and Ahriman are both better, Abaddon is better. Really happy that the SCs are getting some love. Kharn still looks like the crown jewel though lol.

Yeah, after looking at it, I'm not disappointed at all to tell you the truth. IMO a lot of people will be, which is fair enough, as it isn't too much different from the current one in a sense. There are a lot more options and selections you can make, which is good. We don't look like a top codex, but we don't seem UP anymore at least. I would say this codex looks like mid-tier to me, which is fine by me. Looking at 8th ed Fantasy, hopefully it is a trend.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 03:24 AM

Basically, just watch out for S10 weapons, but most S10 weapons will struggle to hit him when he is flying (or not be able to at all). And once you are in combat, go to town.
Also yeah, against Bjorn! Oh dear, make them suffer even more for taking Bjorn.....

Yeah definitely agreed re Typhus, what I love is that all the special characters actually seem viable now. Fabius is ok, Lucius is ok, Huron is good, Kharn is awesome, Typhus and Ahriman are both better, Abaddon is better. Really happy that the SCs are getting some love. Kharn still looks like the crown jewel though lol.

Yeah, after looking at it, I'm not disappointed at all to tell you the truth. IMO a lot of people will be, which is fair enough, as it isn't too much different from the current one in a sense. There are a lot more options and selections you can make, which is good. We don't look like a top codex, but we don't seem UP anymore at least. I would say this codex looks like mid-tier to me, which is fine by me. Looking at 8th ed Fantasy, hopefully it is a trend.

The specials were always worth their cost, but the list was always dieing for more utility and less beatstick hence the rise of the lash prince,

You can put me in dissappointed as I said its more a 4.5 than a 6.0

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 04:07 AM

The specials were always worth their cost, but the list was always dieing for more utility and less beatstick hence the rise of the lash prince,

You can put me in dissappointed as I said its more a 4.5 than a 6.0

IMO I just found Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius et al to be too expensive for what they did. Kharn was the only well-priced one. Still, I agree regarding the lash princes. As much as Kharn was a killing machine and Typhus was nigh unkillable, they just didn't do enough for your army. Like Ahriman - he could shoot three mediocre psychic powers a turn for the cost of a Land Raider.
Now you look at them, as much as taking them equates to the same thing as before for fluffy lists, they provide better buffs and options for the army rather than just being beat-sticks. It's why I really like how they re-did Abaddon.

I guess I can live with it being 4.5 in that sense, I'm not terribly excited - but still looking forward to trying the new stuff.
At least we now have a codex where Fast Attack slots can and should be used - Raptors are now well-priced, Warp Talons are good, and Bikers are no longer horrendously over-costed.
Heavy Support still looks like our bread and butter, and HQs will no longer be spammed by Daemon Princes. When I look at it that way, I'm happy. Instead of just lash princes, plague marines and obliterators being the sole competitive list, I think there will be several.

On Fast Attack, that's the most pleasing change to me, even though I rarely use Fast Attack in any army I play. A three-man Biker squad with two meltaguns, for example, costs you 90 points. Compare that to the old codex, it would have been 134 points. A unit of 5 Raptors with two plasma guns and the Mark of Khorne will cost 135 points, as opposed to 175 points, and that unit of Raptors also now causes Fear on top of what they had before and are -1 Leadership. Also, instead of just +1 attack from MoK, they have Rage and Counter-Attack.

Going back to my previous posts about aspiring champions taking ranged weapons i.e. special weapons, they are limited to combi-weapons and plasma pistols. So no five-man two-special weapon squads of basic Chaos Marines. Still, 5 Chosen with 4 plasma guns and a Rhino equates to 185 points. It would have been 195 before. Weighing it up, you lose Infiltrate, but you get extra attacks in combat and you are scoring (with Abaddon) and if in range of Abaddon, you have Preferred Enemy (Marines). Ouch. Poor Grey Knights.

I'm actually disappointed with the lack of daemon weapons, there used to be five available to Chaos Lords, now there are just two. The Khorne one is amazing, but it is just that - Khorne only.

Speaking of Khorne, here's a tricked out Chaos Lord to run with Khorne Raptors/Warp Talons;
Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury, Juggernaught of Khorne, Sigil of Corruption - 175
Expensive but holy hell would he be terrifying to face. He is WS5, BS4, S4, T5, W4, I5, A4, +3, ++4 with D6 additional attacks from the Daemon Weapon adding +2 S at AP2. The Lord also moves like cavalry (12" movement) and has Rage and Counter Attack. Jeebus.
This muncher has one Hammer of Wrath attack at S4, then (on the charge) will probably have something like 9-10 attacks at S6 ignoring all armour. If you have Veterans of the Long War (a measly 5 point upgrade) you can kiss a similarly costed Space Marine HQ goodbye. And, if you aren't Challenged, sayonara to an entire squad virtually.
Come to think of it, that Khorne lord I just described would be liable to kick Marneus Calgar's butt as well. Charge him into a Terminator unit and watch the *censored*!

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 05:04 AM

The psychic powers are better than they were, but yeah, most people will probably take the mandatory power if they are marked and just go all BRB afterwards.
That's what I noticed, the units mostly seem to be adequately priced now.

Haha, also just remembered, I recently converted up an awesome Night Lords Chaos Lord who happens to have an axe. :) Substitute the Juggernaught for a Jump Pack on that Chaos Lord - 160 points of pain!
I think Khorne armies will actually do ok in this codex. The Rhino nerf does hurt, but it will be better than before. Obviously, flyer-spam lists will ruin your day, but that doesn't stop themed-players. Cheap lords that are insanely killy will be the norm for Khorne, as well as lots of cheap troops that are good in combat and some funny mechanical options (Maulerfiends).

Also, sadly, there is absolutely no way to make a Daemon Prince an Eternal Warrior. However, whilst they aren't as good as before in that respect and are a lot more costly, I think you can still make them work. A use I can see is having a winged one with the Dimensional Key; fly up, take the heat, then slam into a unit. Like before, you should still be able to much through units with ease. Once you've killed a model, you have basically made a big part of your opponent's deployment zone a difficult/dangerous terrain area, and your deep strikers won't scatter. And as mentioned previously, one with the Murder Blade will be very, very nasty.

For those wondering about Flakk Missiles, a Havoc with missile launcher and flakk missiles will cost you about 38 points a pop.
Also funny - 5 Havocs with 4 autocannons equates to 115 points. In the old rules, that would be 170 points. :eek:
How about 5 Havocs with 4 missile launchers? 135 points compared to 170.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 05:44 AM

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 05:58 AM

Well just compared my old list with my knew list

at 1750 I think I do get a fair bit more into a list, My 7 oblits are now T5, everything has VotLW, I Dropped the twin LC's to single (I could get pairs in if not for the stupid champion) and have 17pts spare.

Dunno if 20 T5 marines 6 terminators, a terminator lord, 7 oblits and 2 hellbrutes is any good though

Should be a mean little anti-marine list.

Unfortunately, I'm having more trouble with my Thousand Sons. My usual list had two daemon princes, two 1K Sons units in rhinos, two dreadnoughts, two vindicators and a defiler. I'm really struggling to figure out what to do after taking the 1K Sons in Rhinos. It might take a while to adjust to not taking the three mandatory units in pretty much every army list I wrote (two Daemon Princes, Defiler). The good thing is, I think I can make it work, and without resorting to the tried-and-true units of before. I might have to spend a bit of money though lol.

Good to see you are getting your list all good :)

Strangely enough, a Predator Destructor (Heavy Bolters/Autocannon) is 10 points more than the generic Loyalist one, but the Annihilator (lascannons/lascannon) is 15 points cheaper.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 06:18 AM

yeah I have a suspicion that the chaos codex has suffered from Nid syndrome, as in this is not quite the finished product it should be. The Nids codex also had delayment rumours surrounding it and i have a feeling that this is what happens when for some reason large sections of the codex are changed just before printing, ias in perhaps the paradigm shift due to the CHS case managed to just clip the chaos codex and they dropped a lot from it due to model support.

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 06:22 AM

Well there was going to be another Land Raider which was dropped due to the CHS case, so yeah that sucks hard. Oh well, I'm already writing up an army list that includes Fast Attack for the first time in a Chaos list for me. I'll deal with the bad I guess lol. I'm not as optimistic as I was before but I think I'll be happy with it.

I wrote up an Undivided list as a tester to really get my head around the points decreases and how it affects unit viability. I won't post it fully for obvious reasons, but basically it has two ML2 Sorcerer Lords with +3 invulnerable saves, two 5-man Chosen squads in Rhinos with 4 plasma guns, two 10-man Chaos Marine squads with 1 plasma gun and 1 meltagun each in rhinos, two 3-man Biker squads with two plasma guns, and two 5-man Havoc squads with four missile launchers each. It is 1500 on the dot and kind of like a display list - two of each army slot. If I tried to do that in the old codex, it'd be just shy of 1750 points.

Hmm now I am really starting to get edgy. I haven't got much money to spend lately, but I really feel like I am going to have to stop buying tanks and focus more on Infantry. I have two Vindicators, a Defiler, a Predator and a Land Raider. The first three see regular use, the other two not so much. Looking at the codex, I want to change it up - the Vindicators are still the same, as is the Predator, but....ehh I think I'm going to start leaning towards more infantry based armies. Can't decide between Havocs or Obliterators though. Obliterators are easier to get, but Havocs are probably more cost-effective, and if I give them missile launchers I can use flakk missiles if I know I am coming up against a flyer-heavy army. Argh, in a tough spot lol.

Actually considering building on that World Eaters contingent I have with Kharn. S7 AP2 on the charge with 7 attacks hitting on 2s at I5, or S6 AP2 with 5 attacks hitting on 2s at I5 (6 with Counter-Attack). Giving Hatred (everything) to his unit is also pretty nasty, especially paired with Berzerkers. And he has Armourbane too.

Poseidal

10-03-2012, 07:58 AM

With the base Warlord Traits some of the characters have, does it only apply if they are the Warlord or do they get it all the time?

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 08:16 AM

With the base Warlord Traits some of the characters have, does it only apply if they are the Warlord or do they get it all the time?

Only if they are the Warlord. If you take Abaddon though, he must always be your Warlord.

DarkLink

10-03-2012, 03:33 PM

Basically, just watch out for S10 weapons, but most S10 weapons will struggle to hit him when he is flying (or not be able to at all). And once you are in combat, go to town.

Your opponent can just try and ground him with weaker weapons, and save the Str 10 for later.

yeah I have a suspicion that the chaos codex has suffered from Nid syndrome, as in this is not quite the finished product it should be.

Just glancing over the rumors, I've seen enough WTF? stuff that this is my reaction as well.

I used to play Khorne, however, which I might almost regret selling that army as Kharne is awesome. It would make a good secondary army.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 04:12 PM

Just glancing over the rumors, I've seen enough WTF? stuff that this is my reaction as well.

I used to play Khorne, however, which I might almost regret selling that army as Kharne is awesome. It would make a good secondary army.

There is a certain feel to that kind of release. atleast with the chaos codex I don't see anything as bad as the lictor, pyrovore or carnifex.

I'd say most of the special rules work simply because they haven't really been changed at all.

Khorne does seem to do well this codex, there are a lot of things where the khorne version is simply better ie: artefacts, I'm not sure if its enough to overcome the inherent weakness of assualt this edition but its something.

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 06:32 PM

I've gone through and thought about the codex a bit more, and I think for semi-competitive play, any player will be able to make a Cult army (World Eaters, Death Guard, etc) work.
Khorne gets heaps of benefits over the other gods to help with the whole assaults being weaker in 6th. Kharn again looks to be the best value special character in the codex.
Nurgle works out to be cheaper for units that don't have the mark base, and Plague Marines AFAIK work out to be only like five points more expensive and have gained Fear and Poisoned Weapons. Typhus is also imba, and Plague Zombie lists are going to be nasty.
Tzeentch is the weakest without a doubt, but also benefits from having the best Chaos Daemons allies. If you have the patience though, like an Eldar player for example, Thousand Sons can be made to work. Ahriman is also far improved over what he was.
Slaanesh has arguably had the biggest buffs as far as Cult units go. Noise Marines are significantly cheaper, though the Salvo rules mean Sonic Blasters can no longer be used as Assault weapons. Blastmasters are cheaper, but you need 10 man squads to take them. Mostly though, Slaanesh now gets Feel No Pain. Lucius is much better and can be worthwhile now.

As far as actual tournament play though, I think Nurgle and Slaanesh will be the most common Cult armies, with variants within those Cults (i.e. Plague Marines or Plague Zombies). Undivided is very good though for the sheer amount of bodies you can field. Abaddon lists with Chosen plasma spam will also be workable methinks.

So, comparing to the old codex, we used to have Lash Princes, Plague Marines and Obliterators. Lash Princes and Daemon Princes and general are now nowhere near as good, Plague Marines are better and Obliterators are better. However, Noise Marines and basic Chaos Marines are also very much worthwhile, as well as Plague Zombies. Obliterators will be pressed against Mauler/Forgefiends and Havocs now, whilst our Fast Attack slots - particularly Bikes, Raptors and the Heldrake - will see common use as well. HQs are cuter, the special characters are better and I would say all but maybe one or two would be considered highly competitive and worth their points.

Overall, no real massive changes to the previous codex, but enough so that there will be more than one viable army list out there. Still some negatives (Tzeentch) and big doodoo's (paired weapons on characters), but overall I would give this a 'Good' rating. Not what we wanted, but what we needed.

daboarder

10-03-2012, 06:47 PM

I've gone through and thought about the codex a bit more, and I think for semi-competitive play, any player will be able to make a Cult army (World Eaters, Death Guard, etc) work.

You can't make cult armies

you can make god specific lists but not cult armies.

Learn2Eel

10-03-2012, 07:03 PM

You can't make cult armies

you can make god specific lists but not cult armies.

Haha you know what I mean :)

DarkLink

10-03-2012, 08:31 PM

There is a certain feel to that kind of release. atleast with the chaos codex I don't see anything as bad as the lictor, pyrovore or carnifex.

What's worse is that there are some rules that are simply stupid. The Power Flail subtracts D3 from the WS of one enemy in base contact. WTF? Does it have to be random? Does it have to be an odd number that I have to keep track of, in the midst of a game that has already become slower with more bookkeeping than 5th? Couldn't they just make it a simple -1 WS? Something you don't have to roll for or waste effort trying to keep track of?

Caitsidhe

10-03-2012, 08:53 PM

If what I see is correct, it appears that Spawn "might" be rather effective. It looks like you are getting a die to roll per Spawn in the unit. You roll the result and add them all together (thus more Spawn in the unit act as a force amplifier) and each one will get that many attacks. The average result, for example, on 3D6 = 10. So each Spawn would make ten attacks... and since you have three of them that is thirty attacks. I'm not sure if this is what the intended RAI or just typical GW bad writing.

If this is correct, a max unit of five would average 17 attacks each at STR-5 and the other random amplifier.

DF3CT

10-03-2012, 08:55 PM

Unless you're a Chosen, CSM's have to pay for a CC Mr.Stabby. 0_o

I guess they were too busy welding all those spikes to their armour they forgot to bring a knife.

Gir

10-03-2012, 09:09 PM

You can't make cult armies

you can make god specific lists but not cult armies.

Is there a real difference?

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

10-03-2012, 10:54 PM

Please keep all comments relevant to discussing the new Chaos Codex please

(no more asking to be linked)

Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

10-03-2012, 11:25 PM

Love the Apostle's "Veteran of the Long War" option, available for the cheap price of Free. He's already Ld10, so it gives him Hatred: Space Marines. There is no negative effect whatsoever. It's an entirely positive, free, option. Why not just add it to his default rules?

Tzeentch's Dark Agent

10-03-2012, 11:29 PM

I suppose because then he has the option to be a Legionnaire?

I don't understand why Huron has it, I really don't. Okay I get the Hatred (Space Marines), though it should be Hatred (Marines Errant), but why not just give him that? He's only been a traitor for like 500 years tops??

EDIT: Why is Abaddon's face (on his artwork) full of derp? :p

DF3CT

10-03-2012, 11:31 PM

One would think a minister of chaos would be veteran of the chaos gods, so ya, curious why it wasn't given for free or enforced.

You would think an Apostle of the dark powers would be frothing at the bit to stabby some servants of the Emperor.

I'm sort of sad they are an HQ for just one. I was hoping they would make those support class HQ choices 0-3. ie Chaplains etc

I find there are simply better options to take for those HQ slots

White Tiger88

10-03-2012, 11:42 PM

EDIT: Why is Abaddon's face (on his artwork) full of derp? :p

Well it takes a pretty big Derp to fail 12 black crusades in a row..........

Biscuitsofwrath

10-04-2012, 02:55 AM

Well it takes a pretty big Derp to fail 12 black crusades in a row..........

He didn't "fail" 12 black crusades....He succeeded in achieving the secret plans of the Dark Gods.

So far the Codex is cool the only problem I have is actually getting a list that feels comfortable down. I always want to be like "HERP DERP CHARRRRRGE", but then my brain is like no no no go shooty....Then im staring at either chosen with plasmaguns or large squads of MoT marines with icon of flames(The amount of saves you can put on a unit from 20 rapid firing bolters with soulfire is lulzy).

As far as HQs go Abaddon and Typhus are the big winners this edition. The big change to "true toughness" is super cool for them. Typhus' weapon being unwieldy is kinda meh, but what are you going to do. Plague Zombies are super good and hard to deal with. Though the standard Sorcerer is a big winner as well. The only problem with having to roll on bio/pyro/tele is that casting 3 spells a turn is kinda bleh when the ones you can roll are mostly psychic shooting attacks. The chaos schools are meh as well, Slaneesh is the winner for psykers who just have to roll on the chaos charts.

I really like the boon table as a game mechanic....I didnt get enough of that in fantasy -.- just saying.

Learn2Eel

10-04-2012, 04:20 AM

What's worse is that there are some rules that are simply stupid. The Power Flail subtracts D3 from the WS of one enemy in base contact. WTF? Does it have to be random? Does it have to be an odd number that I have to keep track of, in the midst of a game that has already become slower with more bookkeeping than 5th? Couldn't they just make it a simple -1 WS? Something you don't have to roll for or waste effort trying to keep track of?

No dude, it says that if one or more models are in base-to-base contact with you, then you roll the D3 and subtract it from the WS of those models. It isn't limited to one.

Cap'nSmurfs

10-04-2012, 04:51 AM

Real important question:

So, lash of submission. It's gone, right?

daboarder

10-04-2012, 04:54 AM

Real important question:

So, lash of submission. It's gone, right?

yeah, and no it wasn't that bad, roll hit and 5+ or better DtW meant that it hasn't been doing much in the last 4 months anyway.

Cap'nSmurfs

10-04-2012, 04:58 AM

Tell that to my poor Space Marines! Good riddance!

daboarder

10-04-2012, 05:01 AM

I'm sure the hammerhand GK's will care

Caitsidhe

10-04-2012, 05:59 AM

<chuckles> The main purpose of the Lash for the last two years has been to keep people away with their ridiculously powerful close combat units. Sad to say but CSM simply could not compete with what popped up in the newer books. They took the Lash away but it is largely not required anymore. The 6th Edition Meta-Shift killed close combat super units anyway. It isn't necessary to Lash those units anymore when you can just shoot them to death with conventional fire.

DrLove42

10-04-2012, 06:01 AM

Not sure that was its only use Caitsidhe.

In my area, Lash was usually used to move people out of cover, or group them together so flamers and blast weapons could do the most damage

Caitsidhe

10-04-2012, 06:22 AM

Not sure that was its only use Caitsidhe.

In my area, Lash was usually used to move people out of cover, or group them together so flamers and blast weapons could do the most damage

That kind of use was available if the conditions were right, sure. You could group people up for blasts and all sorts of things. I liked to use a conga-line on certain forces, putting the last guy really close to this table edge so that when I broke them a giant mob would run off the board. There were lots of uses, but the main one (more and more) was just to keep moving the super-assault mobs back so you could buy time to shoot them more. That was the "reliable" purpose because as silly as it was CSM's best close combat combination still just died and lost to what was out there.

DrLove42

10-04-2012, 06:32 AM

Yep. And Im an Eldar player, I know the feeling of CC units getting stomped.

I still haven't found the dex online, my googlefu is clearly weak

The Madman

10-04-2012, 06:41 AM

gresha

10-04-2012, 07:12 AM

I've been reading through my copy and noticed the Daemon prince is LD9 with the Long War rule as standard while every other HQ is LD10 without the Long War rule.

do you guys think that the +1 LD has been added to the Daemon Princes profile or has it been left off?

seems odd that the immortal Daemon Prince has less LD then a Chaos lord. not that it greatly matters.

"Models with the Veterans of the Long War special rule have the Hatred (Space Marines) special rule (see designer's note, pg 28) and +1 Leadership (remember that a model's Leadership cannot be modifiled above 10). When Veterans of the Long War is listed in a unit's special rules, the Leadership increase will already has been taken into account in its profile". Direct Quote from the rule itself so the DP is 9. Was 8 but since he has that rule its 9.

Learn2Eel

10-04-2012, 07:52 AM

He is Fearless though so it only really affects psychic powers, most of which he will still pass regardless. Biomancy is the only way to get Eternal Warrior for him, but it is 50 points just to get one roll on the Biomancy chart - 25 points per mastery level, but because you must be a daemon of a patron god, you also have to select a power for that god. As expensive as they are, I can see Daemon Princes being very useful in Apocalypse games. Fully kitted out, Mastery Level 3 with 2 Biomancy powers. Nasty.
Again, whilst Daemon Princes have suffered the nerf-bat, they can still be useful, we just have to be a lot more careful with them.

DrLove42

10-04-2012, 09:11 AM

My WTF moment has come on Warpsmith

Repairs on a 5+. You add 1 to your roll if you have mechatendrils. Its not possible for him to NOT have tendrils. So why not just say 4+?

Caitsidhe

10-04-2012, 09:34 AM

My WTF moment has come on Warpsmith

Repairs on a 5+. You add 1 to your roll if you have mechatendrils. Its not possible for him to NOT have tendrils. So why not just say 4+?

Because Games Workshop has no quality control, clearly rushed this Codex, cut things out, and paid little heed things? :D Clearly it was originally intended as a purchased upgrade but either they forgot to include it that way or changed their mind and didn't catch the conflict of syntax. What bothers me is that the damn Warpsmith and Dark Apostles take up HQ slots. They are decent but not truly good enough to use up that slot. They should have been a two for one affair.

DrLove42

10-04-2012, 09:36 AM

Chaplains and Master of the Forge take up HQ slots in marine armies. Its just keeping equal

Only Techmarines with Thunderfire cannons don't

Caitsidhe

10-04-2012, 09:45 AM

Chaplains and Master of the Forge take up HQ slots in marine armies. Its just keeping equal

Only Techmarines with Thunderfire cannons don't

Perhaps so but they could have throne us a bone. They eye help us, they sure didn't throw us any others. While I like the Warpsmith and Apostle, I will simply never have room for them taking that slot.

DrLove42

10-04-2012, 09:49 AM

I've got a fluffy army in mind, so i'm taking one of each....

DarkLink

10-04-2012, 10:29 AM

No dude, it says that if one or more models are in base-to-base contact with you, then you roll the D3 and subtract it from the WS of those models. It isn't limited to one.

...that is utterly irrelevant to the point I was making. Whether it's one or more models, it's still a poorly thought out, unnecessarily complicated rule.

My WTF moment has come on Warpsmith

Repairs on a 5+. You add 1 to your roll if you have mechatendrils. Its not possible for him to NOT have tendrils. So why not just say 4+?

For the same reason GW flat-out refuses to list Invulnerable saves on model's statline.

Demonus

10-04-2012, 01:27 PM

Well it takes a pretty big Derp to fail 12 black crusades in a row..........

I was thinking he saw how much of a Nerf it was to actually become a Daemon Prince....

"Nah, nah, on second thought guys, Ill keep my gear and eternal warrior. Im good."

DF3CT

10-04-2012, 05:18 PM

Chaplains and Master of the Forge take up HQ slots in marine armies. Its just keeping equal

Only Techmarines with Thunderfire cannons don't

CURRENTLY they are the same. You just wait for marines to get an update Dex.

I've heard tale of 0-3 or 0-2 chaplains.

Model sales first and foremost. More choices, more model sales.

For some reason they feel the need to "keep the balance' with codexs that will be obsolete in a short amount of time.
Crazy.

As always, first dex out of the gate will be one of the weakest for the new edition when all is said and done.

mysterex

10-05-2012, 01:59 AM

Well just compared my old list with my knew list

at 1750 I think I do get a fair bit more into a list,

That's funny I've found that I'm getting a little less. I normally play a chaos glory / undivided list and my squads are working out at 10 points more with the only difference being that the icon makes them fearless instead of re-rolling morale tests. Making them fearless seemed necessary given their drop in morale and paying to make them triple armed was just making them as they were. A few other things I use have moved down a little (obliterators) or gone up a lot (daemon princes and defilers)

My biggest problem in the past was that after taking four 10 model scoring units I felt that I couldn't get much more in list at the 1500 to 1750 point level we normally play. Now on first glance the situation seems a little worse. I guess that is where cultists (or allies) now come in. And if I can fit them in I'll look to start using my bikes again.

Unlike the release of Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar where reading the codex left me thinking about building an army this one left me a little uninspired. Maybe that just means it's more balanced or maybe that view will change when I've played a few games and know the codex better. We'll have to see ... but you know first impressions.