Chaos 40k Q&A

[Lazarian]

I have the new rules so without going over points or scans or whatnot I can answer questions.

[Caitsidhe]

Do we have a unit that can wield a Thunder Hammer (it appears to be in the arsenal) and if so which model/unit? In this same vein, were Storm Shields (or any variation which does the same thing) added to our options?

[magickbk]

My question any time a new Codex is coming out is what variations are possible, what can be unlocked as Troops? We've all heard that cult units are unlocked by the Mark your Lord takes. Can you confirm, and is there anything else that can be unlocked as Troops?

[Lazarian]

The Hellbrute (dread) can get a thunderhammer however no one else is eligible from what I can tell. There is no mention of storm shields in any regards. There is a piece of wargear that gets you to 5++ however that's it; it becomes 4++ after MOT.

[Lazarian]

Generic lords and sorcs can unlock cult troops. Abby can unlock choosen, thats it.

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

Okay, I guess I will jump on here first and try to not waste time with stuff we already know the answers to.
1. How much does a Chaos Lord cost?
2. Do Plague Marines have to purchase Plague Knives or Veterans of the Long War or are they already included with them?
3. Aspiring Champions have access to Melee weapons and Ranged weapons from the wargear list, are there more options than: Power Weapon, Power Fist, Combi-weapons, Plasma Pistols, and Meltabombs? If so, what are they?
4. What is in the artiacts section of the wargear page that HQ's have access to, and prices?
5. Can you confirm the prices of the Defiler (options included), and Sonic Weapons for the Noise Marines?

[Caitsidhe]

Generic lords and sorcs can unlock cult troops. Abby can unlock choosen, thats it.

Unfortunate. I was hoping Abby by virtue of having all the marks would unlock all Cult troops. It might have made him worth the points.

[Caitsidhe]

What can you tell us about Lucius the Eternal that we haven't heard already?

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

in the amount of time it took me to post that question, 2 other ppl posted theirs lol.

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Lazarian, you'll regret it. :p

[Lazarian]

Okay, I guess I will jump on here first and try to not waste time with stuff we already know the answers to.
1. How much does a Chaos Lord cost?
2. Do Plague Marines have to purchase Plague Knives or Veterans of the Long War or are they already included with them?
3. Aspiring Champions have access to Melee weapons and Ranged weapons from the wargear list, are there more options than: Power Weapon, Power Fist, Combi-weapons, Plasma Pistols, and Meltabombs? If so, what are they?
4. What is in the artiacts section of the wargear page that HQ's have access to, and prices?
5. Can you confirm the prices of the Defiler (options included), and Sonic Weapons for the Noise Marines?

- Cant go over points except the basic lord is really cheap now.
- Nurgle gets knives standard however must pay a sliver more for veteran.
- Champs can get what is listed above plus a chainaxe (ap4)
- Dimensional key is the only icon but you must kill someone first
- Burning brand is a soulfire flamer
- Axe of blind fury is +2 str, ap 2, -1 WS/BS and causes rage
- Black Mace is AP4, causes instant death on failed T, and armorbane, causes pulse that can kill others in 3" after killing someone
- Murdersword is powerweapon that can mark an opposing character. Marked opposing character makes bearer of sword 2x S and ap 1
- Magus scrolls give you one psychic power however suffers a S3 ap1 hit
- Defiler is combiweapon rhino more expensive can replace flamer for havoc launcher or scourge, can replace reaper auto with power fist, twin bolter or twin las, plus can take upgrades from armory.
- sonic blaster costs as much as a gretchin, and if bought makes the noise marine unchanged in points, blastmasters are 1 per 10 and cost just under a rhino, champion can take doom siren at 5x gretchen price.

[Lazarian]

What can you tell us about Lucius the Eternal that we haven't heard already?

Lucius is a hair more expensive, unlocks noise marines, causes s4 ap 2 rebound hits for successful saves in challenges, has as many attacks as opponets WS in challenges

[NurglesBloatedEgo]

ty very much

[inquisitorsog]

Do Alpha, Night Lords and Iron Warriors get anything special? That was the biggest let down for me in the last dex. I'd just started working on an Alpha cultist themed army and then BANG no cultists, leaving that project at 2 squads and a couple of HQ.

[zenjah]

Who can get the Infiltrate USR? Do Chosen still get it? How about Cultists? Anyone else?

[Caitsidhe]

Here is one I'm interested in. Do Plague Marines have 4+ Feel No Pain. I noticed in the basic book that Feel No Pain is 5+ standard but that there are other versions out there. The rumor of high pricing and being Elite made me wonder if they decided to leave Nurgles go-to-boys with the 4+ version. The screenshots I saw of PM so far had that covered up.

[Lazarian]

- There is fluff blurb of all 9 legions however aside from the new vehicles nothing new, though you can make most of the legions very easy now.

- Chosen lose infiltrate, only thing I see with it in the book now is d3 units with a Warlord trait. Ahriman and Huron get this trait auto.

- Plague marines have 5+ FNP as do the Slannesh banner.

[daedalus81]

1] Does the HQ sorcerer come with a ward at all?
2] Roughly how expensive is the 5+? (Above or below 20?)
3] Do 1K Sons actually come with veteran?
4] Is it possible to have 5 missile launchers for havocs or 5 special weapons for chosen by giving the champ a weapon through the wargear section? Are those weapons more expensive or roughly the same as the unit price?
5] Is skyfire included, a cost per model, or cost per unit? Is it havoc only?

[Lazarian]

1] Does the HQ sorcerer come with a ward at all?
2] Roughly how expensive is the 5+? (Above or below 20?)
3] Do 1K Sons actually come with veteran?
4] Is it possible to have 5 missile launchers for havocs or 5 special weapons for chosen by giving the champ a weapon through the wargear section? Are those weapons more expensive or roughly the same as the unit price?
5] Is skyfire included, a cost per model, or cost per unit? Is it havoc only?

-The sorc can buy a 5+, which is slightly more expensive than 20.
-1k sons have a sorc like normal for about the same points, slightly less. They do not get veteran.
-Havocs can only have 4 weapons, champ can get a combi or plas, It is the only ground unit with skyfire (flakk) Flakk is an upgrade for any havoc with missile launcher. Flakk option + missile is only slightly more expensive than the current havocs missile cost.

[Caitsidhe]

<chuckles> All in all it sounds as if our Codex got even weaker.

[Lazarian]

<chuckles> All in all it sounds as if our Codex got even weaker.

I think the power will lie in the fact most options per squad are much cheaper. A basic havoc or troop marine are the same cost as necron warriors. The various HQ are pretty stout too, especially juggernaut lords. Slannesh also appears to be much more powerful troopwise this time around.

I would say its not a nerf overall, probably a slight bump.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the power will lie in the fact most options per squad are much cheaper.

Perhaps but if that is the change I'm probably out. I've no interest in building Hordes lists just to be competitive. If I enjoyed that sort of thing I'd play Orks. :) Games take too long with that many models and approach. I certainly own enough CSM to field such an army without ever buying another model, but I just don't really find much in the way of strategy or tactics involved in big blob gun lines.


A basic havoc or troop marine are the same cost as necron warriors. The various HQ are pretty stout too, especially juggernaut lords. Slannesh also appears to be much more powerful troopwise this time around.

Eh. Noise Marines are our shooty type so I suppose it is stands to reason those would be the ones they supercharge for the edition wherein the gun is king. So tell us about the Juggernaut Lords?


I would say its not a nerf overall, probably a slight bump.

I'd say we stayed about the same actually and that is kind of a problem because we have been fighting from behind the eight ball since GK, Spaces Wolves, and Dark Eldar.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Are the plague zombie rumors true? That you can use them if you get Typhus?

[Lazarian]

Are the plague zombie rumors true? That you can use them if you get Typhus?

Typhus for free can make any cultist unit zombies. They cannot take any upgrades however they gain FNP, fearless, and slow/purposeful. They still count as scoring.

[Lazarian]

Perhaps but if that is the change I'm probably out. I've no interest in building Hordes lists just to be competitive. If I enjoyed that sort of thing I'd play Orks. :) Games take too long with that many models and approach. I certainly own enough CSM to field such an army without ever buying another model, but I just don't really find much in the way of strategy or tactics involved in big blob gun lines.



Eh. Noise Marines are our shooty type so I suppose it is stands to reason those would be the ones they supercharge for the edition wherein the gun is king. So tell us about the Juggernaut Lords?



I'd say we stayed about the same actually and that is kind of a problem because we have been fighting from behind the eight ball since GK, Spaces Wolves, and Dark Eldar.


I will say the army is fairly competitive against most things though GK and Necrons are still far better. Sadly if your looking to avoid hordes the two big troop additions are cultists and cheap troops.

Juggers add 1 wound, toughness and attacks plus make the model cav. Palanquins add 2 wounds plus 1 attack. Disks give you jetbike plus 1 attack. Steeds give you cav, +3 run movement and +1 attack. I dont know if they will be able to tip the best HQ's but for generic people is pretty stout.

[Caitsidhe]

Typhus for free can make any cultist unit zombies. They cannot take any upgrades however they gain FNP, fearless, and slow/purposeful. They still count as scoring.

This, at least, is something useful. There was a lot of commentary on the zombies losing their scoring status. I didn't see any point in them at all if that was the case. As a scoring unit, I might put some in. This assumes, of course, that I play Typhus.

[Wildcard]

Thanks for taking your time to answer questions :) ..Here are some of mine:

- Daemon Prince Upgrades? More specifically those artefacts & something that read he can take in one of the leaked scans, what are those?

- Any Ap2/Ap1 close combat weapons that are not unwieldy (Or for some other reason strike at I1)?

- On one post you said something about Defiler and Rhino. Is defiler capable of transporting troops now, or was that just some kind of point comparison?

- How much of those Ap3 / Ap2 templates / blasts that ignore cover can be taken to an army? (Only a few, some, many, sh*t loads?)

- Lastly: What do you consider to be the most powerful non-HQ unit in the Codex overall, and perhaps why?

[Strangleweb]

Thanks Lazarian for your time!

How is Kharn looking now? What are the rules for Gorechild, and does he get any immunity to psychic powers?

[Lazarian]

Thanks for taking your time to answer questions :) ..Here are some of mine:

- Daemon Prince Upgrades? More specifically those artefacts & something that read he can take in one of the leaked scans, what are those?

- Any Ap2/Ap1 close combat weapons that are not unwieldy (Or for some other reason strike at I1)?

- On one post you said something about Defiler and Rhino. Is defiler capable of transporting troops now, or was that just some kind of point comparison?

- How much of those Ap3 / Ap2 templates / blasts that ignore cover can be taken to an army? (Only a few, some, many, sh*t loads?)

- Lastly: What do you consider to be the most powerful non-HQ unit in the Codex overall, and perhaps why?

- Daemon princes get their mark, wings and power armor plus up to 3 mastery levels. They can take any of the artifacts or rewards out of the book

- The only ap 2 weapon that doesnt strike last from what I can see is the Axe of Blind Fury artifact. Kharn and Abaddon both strike on initiative and are ap2

- All the sonic weapons ignore cover so sonic blaster, blastmaster and doom sirens

- I think the basic troops are the most powerful only because you can spam them, possibly choosen as troops via Abby.

- Defilers are like they were, no transports I was using them for comparison.

[Lazarian]

Thanks Lazarian for your time!

How is Kharn looking now? What are the rules for Gorechild, and does he get any immunity to psychic powers?

Kharn plus unit gets a 2+ deny, cannot be instant killed by force weapons. Gorechild is a +1 str ap 2 armorbane melee weapon. Abby and Kharn both can do ap 2/1 and strike as normal.

[magickbk]

I've no interest in building Hordes lists just to be competitive.

It sounds to me like the basic build of an army will be Heresy-era Legion, big units of marines with a few engines and a cultist screen. But it doesn't sound like it will preclude the type of army you appear to want, which is small, elite forces. In fact, it sounds like they will be set up in the same way as the GK and DE that you mentioned, where you'll need to take a specific special character to do it I.E. Draigowing. The abilities and tricks won't be what you are used to, but most people have had their army concept tweaked by GW as their Codex is redone, and everyone will either need to do some tactics rethinking, or some force re-tweaking. Either way, GW seems to want to push these changes into the game, rather than having accidentally nerfed some people by failing to continue an army build in a new Codex.

Additionally, if unit upgrades got cheaper, and you are wanting to build an army of high-costed units, this seems like it would be a boon to your build, as it would prevent you from having to make a decision between fully equipping your units, or taking another unit. Until you are able to crunch some points and see what you can fit in, it seems a little early to sound the alarm. It usually takes a few days until after the release for everyone to figure out the nuances of the new army list.

[entendre_entendre]

Are Beserkers 1 or 2 base attacks? I heard that they are losing furious charge as well, but getting Rage instead. Any comments? And Beserkers upgrade (<5pts a guy) to chainaxes correct? Any mention of the 'two-handed' chain axe thing from the rumours?

Do Defilers and the other Daemon engines have a 5++ save as rumoured?

What do the Warp Talons do (apart from go slicey slicey)? Are they the chaos equivalent of Vanguard vets (i.e. overpriced for what they do)?

Are Raptors just chaos assault marines like they are now? What abilities do they get, if any?

[daboarder]

Can we get the warpsmith and sorcerer options?

What about the dark apotheosis wording?

[Lazarian]

Are Beserkers 1 or 2 base attacks? I heard that they are losing furious charge as well, but getting Rage instead. Any comments? And Beserkers upgrade (<5pts a guy) to chainaxes correct? Any mention of the 'two-handed' chain axe thing from the rumours?

Do Defilers and the other Daemon engines have a 5++ save as rumoured?

What do the Warp Talons do (apart from go slicey slicey)? Are they the chaos equivalent of Vanguard vets (i.e. overpriced for what they do)?

Are Raptors just chaos assault marines like they are now? What abilities do they get, if any?

- Berzerkers are 1 attack base and have rage, counter attack and furious charge. They can get chainaxes for 3 a model. No 2h chainaxe though

- Yep defilers, maulerfiends and the like are all daemons.

- Warp talons are very basic they get the blind attack when landing, can be marked and have veteran. The champ can be booned twice to start and that's it.

- Raptors (bikes as well) are barking cheap two can have plas pistol, and additional can have a special. Like most Asp Champs they can get a variety of weapons and be booned. The unit can have marks plus icons.

[Lazarian]

Warpsmith can repair and can devalue one piece of terrain. Sorcerers can unlock 1ksons as troops if big T and can get up to mastery level 3. They can also take termi armor as well as all the normal weapon/shooting character upgrades as well as the artifacts.

Dark apotheosis turns you into a Prince placed within 3 inches of your old spot. The only thing you keep is your warlord trait and mark. Spawns lose their trait but function in a similar fashion.

[daboarder]

So you have a tooled up lord and what, loose it to a prince with no gear?

Can we mark warpsmiths?

[ElectricPaladin]

I hear you referring to units as "having" veteran. Do you mean that veteran-ness is now an upgrade that you buy for the unit?

If that's kept in further codices, it would be interesting. Sternguard as "veteranized" tacs, vanguard as "veteranized" assault... interesting.

[Lazarian]

So you have a tooled up lord and what, loose it to a prince with no gear?

Can we mark warpsmiths?


You have a plain prince only keeping its mark plus warlord trait, everything else goes.

edit- Warpsmiths can be marked and can use the artifacts.

[daboarder]

He means VotLW

[Lazarian]

I hear you referring to units as "having" veteran. Do you mean that veteran-ness is now an upgrade that you buy for the unit?

If that's kept in further codices, it would be interesting. Sternguard as "veteranized" tacs, vanguard as "veteranized" assault... interesting.


Veteran is 'Veteran of the Long War' its an ubiquitous upgrade that gives preferred enemy space marines (even Grey Knights) and +1 LD. It is typically 1 point/model for most units.

[daboarder]

You have a plain prince only keeping its mark plus warlord trait, everything else goes.

WOW so I guess there is 2 crap results on the boon table. That right there sets the tone of the whole book I'll warrant. Ill thought out sludge.

[TheStrategist]

1) What are the changes to Huron? Anything beyond the command trait of auto 3 units have infiltrate?

2) Fabius Bile's upgrades; how many units (and which ones) can they affect? Are there any limitations after taking his upgrade?

3) Does the Land Raider have any options to swap weapons? Any other changes, minus a slight price hike?

4) Could you do a price comparison between Chaos Bikers and any other unit in the game? Is it still two specials per squad? (above post seemed to hint at one...)

5) And the most important one: any horrible pieces of fluff in the codex? Aka Draigo...

Thanks in advance.

[Lazarian]

WOW so I guess there is 2 crap results on the boon table. That right there sets the tone of the whole book I'll warrant. I'll thought out sludge.

Im more of a mindset this is the level they want the rest of the armies to go. Right now from what I can tell there are stronger codices however you can beat anybody on a good day with this book. If they go the fantasy route and smooth out armies like they do there then its good.

It does seem they buffed up things by reducing points and removed a few bits that were just plain OP (like Lash). We essentially are in limbo until new books to see if this trend continues.

[daboarder]

Sounds like they've gone back to a tempered version of "less is more" it wont last if the 6th books do not stand up to the 5th books in Options and strength. Damn shame that chaos has gotten stuck I. The paradigm lull twice now

[Lazarian]

1) What are the changes to Huron? Anything beyond the command trait of auto 3 units have infiltrate?

2) Fabius Bile's upgrades; how many units (and which ones) can they affect? Are there any limitations after taking his upgrade?

3) Does the Land Raider have any options to swap weapons? Any other changes, minus a slight price hike?

4) Could you do a price comparison between Chaos Bikers and any other unit in the game? Is it still two specials per squad? (above post seemed to hint at one...)

5) And the most important one: any horrible pieces of fluff in the codex? Aka Draigo...

Thanks in advance.

- Huron gets a +2 str armorbane lightning claw, a random psychic power a turn and gets the d3 infiltrate trait. He also has a poweraxe in case of terminator emergencies.

- Fabius enhances one unit for free each game, they have +1 str and no other drawbacks. He has an instant death melee weapon (AP-) and an assault 3 poison 2+ shot.

- Land Raiders are the same, just more expensive. No marks for vehicles if thats a concern.

- Bikes are stellar. They get two specials and are cheaper than the old berzerkers by a hair. You can mark and icon them, boon the champ and have him take any type of weapon/shooting from the wargear list.

- Fluff I have no clue yet, was reading rules and catching up on other stuff. The fluff does stop at the 13th crusade being started.

[Wildcard]

What are those Artefacts and chaos specific items you keep refering "that they can be taken". Any list and what they do?

[Lazarian]

What are those Artefacts and chaos specific items you keep refering "that they can be taken". Any list and what they do?

there are 6 of them, each are unique. I listed them in a previous post. The Axe of Blind Fury is Khorne only, the scrolls of Magnus are Tzeentch only the other 4 (Dimensional Key, Burning Brand, Sword of Murder and Black Mace) can be taken by any HQ slot, even Daemon Princes. Unit champs cannot take them. They are all kinda pricey around rhino cost.

[Lazarian]

- Dimensional key is the only teleport homer in the book but you must kill someone first before it activates.
- Burning brand is a soulfire flamer
- Axe of blind fury is +2 str, ap 2, -1 WS/BS and causes rage
- Black Mace is AP4, causes instant death on failed T, and armorbane, causes pulse that can kill others in 3" after killing someone
- Murdersword is powerweapon that can mark an opposing character. Marked opposing character makes bearer of sword 2x S and ap 1
- Magus scrolls give you one psychic power a turn however suffers a S3 ap1 hit each time it is used

[Wildcard]

Oh, my apologies, didn't understand that those were them :)

What about the other list? I've seen a scan of a HQ section that contained Daemon Prince. It had that can take artefacts and *something else*, what would those be?

Ps. Thanks for reposting them anyway :)

[Lazarian]

Oh, my apologies, didn't understand that those were them :)

What about the other list? I've seen a scan of a HQ section that contained Daemon Prince. It had that can take artefacts and *something else*, what would those be?

Ps. Thanks for reposting them anyway :)

no problem :D

they can take something called chaos rewards (all HQ can as well) which are

- Ichor blood, btb models suffer a str 4 ap2 after wounding the guy
- Spell Familiar, reroll psychic tests.
- Warrior Familiar, +2 A both resolved at Str 4 AP -
- Aura of Dark Glory, 5++
- Gift of Mutation, free boon at start

[Wildcard]

Just wondering if that "Black Mace" is gonna be Ap2 on a daemon prince.. Cos then the heads will roll for sure :)

[Lazarian]

Just wondering if that "Black Mace" is gonna be Ap2 on a daemon prince.. Cos then the heads will roll for sure :)

The way the rules work, yes it would be and it would be rather powerful as a room clearer. At the end of any phase in which he kills someone everyone within 3 inches makes a toughness test or is removed from play with no saves of any kind. Throw wings on him and he gets very pricey but can really lay out anyone in short order.

[daboarder]

is it everyone within 3? or only enemies within 3?

[Gir]

Sounds like they've gone back to a tempered version of "less is more" it wont last if the 6th books do not stand up to the 5th books in Options and strength. Damn shame that chaos has gotten stuck I. The paradigm lull twice now

The book as a huge amount of options for each entry. It also has an armory like the old 3rd ed books.

You basically buy a very barebones squad, then add what you want to it. For example, a CSM squad has 5 guys with bolters and bolt pistols. You can add up to 15 more, give them any number of them close combat weapons (or loose the bolter to get the CCW for free), give them vetrens of the long war, give them special and heavy weapons (based on squad size), gear up the aspiring using the armoury, etc.

I really like the codex. Gonna crack out my old Chaos again.

[Gir]

- Warp talons are very basic they get the blind attack when landing, can be marked and have veteran. The champ can be booned twice to start and that's it.

They are also Daemons.

[daboarder]

The book as a huge amount of options for each entry. It also has an armory like the old 3rd ed books.

You basically buy a very barebones squad, then add what you want to it. For example, a CSM squad has 5 guys with bolters and bolt pistols. You can add up to 15 more, give them any number of them close combat weapons (or loose the bolter to get the CCW for free), give them vetrens of the long war, give them special and heavy weapons (based on squad size), gear up the aspiring using the armoury, etc.

I really like the codex. Gonna crack out my old Chaos again.

eh reading the armoury it sounds like they could have just listed the options in the relevant HQ entries, SM, GK's and Necrons get what roughly 7-10 pieces of war gear unique to their codex's HQ's
We get 6, and 2 of those can only be taken with the right mark, so its more like 4.......

As to the Dimensional doohickey, guess that means the icons got the TH removed so we can say that YES the Nurgle one is WAY overpriced at the cost of a marine.

[Gir]

eh reading the armoury it sounds like they could have just listed the options in the relevant HQ entries, SM, GK's and Necrons get what roughly 7-10 pieces of war gear unique to their codex's HQ's
We get 6, and 2 of those can only be taken with the right mark, so its more like 4.......

Then you would have a page for each entry, and most of it would be repeated.

[daboarder]

yeah I like the armoury Idea, I just don't think they've gone far enough with it. Ultimately this has mostly been a MEH release for me personally.

Some things have been good, some things have been bad and some things have been OMG WTF WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!!.

I'll probably enjoy the new codex but its not really going to lead to the list shake up that I was expecting to get, I'll change from plague marines to MoN marines so that they are consistent with my terminators and Oblits but I think I'll stick with my core philosophy of an infantry advance with termintors, dreads, Oblits and a plague hulk for support.

for example: it doesn't sound like you'll be able to make a lord that will be able to go toe to toe with a loyalist chapter master. If you take khorne or Slaanesh then he nabs you for only having t4 and a 5++, if you take nurgle or tzeentch then he nabs you for not being choppy enough to get through HIS defences.

[Gir]

yeah I like the armoury Idea, I just don't think they've gone far enough with it. Ultimately this has mostly been a MEH release for me personally.

Some things have been good, some things have been bad and some things have been OMG WTF WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT!!.

I'll probably enjoy the new codex but its not really going to lead to the list shake up that I was expecting to get, I'll change from plague marines to MoN marines so that they are consistent with my terminators and Oblits but I think I'll stick with my core philosophy of an infantry advance with termintors, dreads, Oblits and a plague hulk for support.

for example: it doesn't sound like you'll be able to make a lord that will be able to go toe to toe with a loyalist chapter master. If you take khorne or Slaanesh then he nabs you for only having t4 and a 5++, if you take nurgle or tzeentch then he nabs you for not being choppy enough to get through HIS defences.

But you're also paying a hell of a lit less for your Lord, and a Lord is pretty much a captain anyway.

[daboarder]

when I HAVE to challenge in that situation it doesn't matter how much cheaper the lord is, he's still basically mince meat and therefore free points for my opponent.

If they were going to instigate a rule like must challenge in an edition where slay the warlord is very often the decider for a game then they should have made those warlord monsters and costed appropriately, instead it sounds like they made them meh and cheap, which does no good when they themselves are a victory condition.

mark me people will run the SC's just for their survivability.

also a Lord isn't a captain, it should be the equivalent of a chapter master at the very LEAST

[Psyfer]

That implies that a chaos marine lord is only good at dealing with characters, which although I haven't read the Codex yet, I seriously doubt that's all he can do.

For comparison, look at the Eldar Autarch. Even with a Power Spear or Power axe, thy're going to have trouble against a terminator SM captain/chapter master, I'd even state that if he was going toe-to-toe against one in power armour. However, gear them up for bonus attacks and mobility, and they can take out half a squad in a combat on their own, let alone whatever the squad they're attached to can do. I'm sure, even without resorting to Special Characters, that there's counters for a tooled up Space Marine character, for example, I'd imagine that a Daemon Prince would eat one alive.

[daboarder]

But a chaos lord is MEANT to be a character beatstick, their even forced into it by the challenge rule. its what they do in the background and on the tabletop, they should be the scariest buggers on the table bar none!

Its what they do. That's why they have the Boon of mutation table and they must issue and accept challenges in combat. pretty much every squad you lord hits, he is going to have to spend the first round of combat eating a sarge and/or character.

[Gir]

I'm pretty sure the rule is they must accept challenges, not make them.

[daboarder]

I'm pretty sure the rule is they must accept challenges, not make them.

Nope issue and accept

[Caldera02]

-1k sons have a sorc like normal for about the same points, slightly less. They do not get veteran.


They most certainly do according to my copy.

[ragnarcissist]

are possessed any good? whats their chart look like? will they be worth fielding??

[Caitsidhe]

Interesting stuff. Kharn "sounds" awesome but you still have to find a way to deliver him to your opponent and stick him into combat. This is much easier said that done. Consider the following:

1. CSM only has an even MORE overpriced assault vehicle now which is unlikely to make it past the halfway mark.
2. Shooting is king so once out of the vehicle the saturation fire on Kharn's unit will destroy it all.
3. Even if you took an HQ or got a trait to allow infiltrate and thus outflank, you cannot assault when you come in from reserve.
4. Should you actually reach combat with Kharn, he will kill everything engaged before they act and combat will end with him not engaged to get shot on the opponent's turn. :)

I could go on but these are the big ones. The problems with Kharn are delivery and then stick. I think it will be extremely difficult with our current vehicle selection to get him into combat, difficult to keep him there, and ultimately to keep him alive long enough to get a return. Assuming he unlocks Berserkers as units, you could use him to create spam-a-lot Khorne list. I am still dubious of this approach. Abby sounds like he is worth his points if he is acting on initiative and remains AP-2 as well as the other benefits. He, at least, provides a few shooting options and might survive to contact with the opponent. Can anyone say if units hit with the Blind power of the elite Raptors still get the save to ignore it? If so, they are pointless because they will just jump in and die.

[daedalus81]

This is probably too late, but can someone clarify on scroll of magnus? Is it a power of your choice? Does it require warp charges or supply its own?

@Caitsidhe
Land raiders aren't so bad. Everyone is taking S6/7/8 weapons to deal with flyers. Most of them will barely scratch a LR. You just have to worry about lances, haywire, and Tau. If you're facing a ton of lances its probably flier spam and the berzerkers won't do much anyway. If its Tau then getting there with one unit will clear them out.

[Lost Vyper]

So, the Warp Talons can drop --> shoot --> assault? Just to clarify...

[Caitsidhe]

@Caitsidhe
Land raiders aren't so bad. Everyone is taking S6/7/8 weapons to deal with flyers. Most of them will barely scratch a LR. You just have to worry about lances, haywire, and Tau. If you're facing a ton of lances its probably flier spam and the berzerkers won't do much anyway. If its Tau then getting there with one unit will clear them out.

They are that bad from a tournament perspective. You will always face at least one (probably more as you advance) opponent that is spamming Lances, Haywire, and/or a list with enough high strength AP-2 or AP-1 fire to kill the single Raider you will be able to afford in the list. Even if you could get two in there, the cost of effective kill-weapons is far less (and they have wider uses) than the Raiders you put in. You should assume your Raider is going to die just as quickly as any Rhino. The fact that the Raider is the ONLY assault vehicle and nobody is going to want to be assaulted assures that it will get all the appropriate fire. If you are buying the hunk of junk you are doing so to deliver an effective assault unit. The reality on the ground is that Land Raiders ARE THAT BAD. You are simply flushing points down the toilet. You are buying a lotto ticket in the hopes you will win a chance to get your assault troops into hand to hand. Like a lotto ticket, you are unlikely to get a return and spending good money on the chance.

[daedalus81]

Oh another quick question if anyone has the info - has the predator changed in cost either in base or weapon options?

[daedalus81]

They are that bad from a tournament perspective. You will always face at least one (probably more as you advance) opponent that is spamming Lances, Haywire, and/or a list with enough high strength AP-2 or AP-1 fire to kill the single Raider you will be able to afford in the list. Even if you could get two in there, the cost of effective kill-weapons is far less (and they have wider uses) than the Raiders you put in. You should assume your Raider is going to die just as quickly as any Rhino. The fact that the Raider is the ONLY assault vehicle and nobody is going to want to be assaulted assures that it will get all the appropriate fire. If you are buying the hunk of junk you are doing so to deliver an effective assault unit. The reality on the ground is that Land Raiders ARE THAT BAD. You are simply flushing points down the toilet. You are buying a lotto ticket in the hopes you will win a chance to get your assault troops into hand to hand. Like a lotto ticket, you are unlikely to get a return and spending good money on the chance.

Repair can mitigate that chance. It would take 6 ravagers to bring it down on glances and 5 to explode it (on average) in one turn (without repair). Luck is always a factor (as is haywire/gauss - yet they are relatively short ranged), but if you have that much firepower thrown at a single model the rest of your army should gain considerable ground.

[daedalus81]

So, the Warp Talons can drop --> shoot --> assault? Just to clarify...

I would venture a guess on that to be a big no on assaulting.

[Caitsidhe]

Repair can mitigate that chance. It would take 6 ravagers to bring it down on glances and 5 to explode it (on average) in one turn (without repair). Luck is always a factor (as is haywire/gauss - yet they are relatively short ranged), but if you have that much firepower thrown at a single model the rest of your army should gain considerable ground.

It doesn't matter if Haywire is relatively short range or not. If you get to move your first turn you are within the Haywire range. :) If you put a Land Raider in, the size of the rest of your army is reduced by a fair amount. Most people investing in a Land Raider are doing so to put an EFFECTIVE close combat unit in it. That means it will probably contain some expensive HQ and some tricked out unit. So with the increased cost of the Land Raider, the HQ, and the full unit inside it, what percentage of your army is now all in one basket? :) I have no doubt people will still try to use Land Raiders for a short while. I also have no doubt that they are going the way of the Dodo. They were already becoming a rare sight in 5th Edition due to the cost and ease at which they were killed. The cost has now gone up and the ease in killing them has doubled and/or trebled. If they were a rare sight in 5th, one can only assume they will become a Blue Moon in 6th.

[Learn2Eel]

The codex has indeed been leaked.

On Land Raiders, I've never really seen the value of them, in 5th or 6th. Too many eggs in one basket, too expensive to be doubled up. And as mentioned, some armies can destroy it with impunity. Most armies rely on meltas to destroy Land Raiders, so in that sense their short range works for you, but Dark Eldar and Grey Knights don't suffer that problem.
Rhinos will always be better IMO. You can take 6 rhinos and 20 points of upgrades for the cost of a Chaos Land Raider, and you don't mind nearly as much if they get destroyed.
You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a Land Raider blown up on the first turn because the controller thinks AV14 all around is near invincible. When that first happened to me - one Dark Lance shot - and I never once got to move it, I was visibly shocked. After that, I put my faith in the humble Rhino. It was also funny today, a Grey Knight player had a Land Raider get blown up in short order by Dark Lances. I asked him before the game if he had ever versed Dark Eldar before - nope. Poor guy, his Dreadknight got ripped to shreds, and his Ghost Knights were slaughtered in short order. I don't think the Grey Knight player realized that min-maxed stuff doesn't work against Dark Eldar - he scoffed at the Poisoned +4 army-wide at first. Bad mistake.

Though I've always been a vehicle-heavy player (5th edition), and though that still works for me, it occurs to me - more than ever - how much more dakka and durability I can have if I put down more Infantry. Instead of two Vindicators, I'll take two 5-man Havoc squads with 4 missile launchers for cheaper. The Havocs are more universal and not susceptible to range and damage issues. Same goes for my Helbrutes - for basically the same cost, I will now be running three-man bike squads with dual plasma guns. Much better distraction units, not obvious as targets and more likely to do damage.
However, despite adding that in, I will also now be fielding a Heldrake and a Forgefiend methinks. I'm still labouring away at the list, but those two have so much utility value that I can't resist.

[Caitsidhe]

The codex has indeed been leaked.

You already find it on one of the file sharing sites or something?

[daedalus81]

It doesn't matter if Haywire is relatively short range or not. If you get to move your first turn you are within the Haywire range. :) If you put a Land Raider in, the size of the rest of your army is reduced by a fair amount. Most people investing in a Land Raider are doing so to put an EFFECTIVE close combat unit in it. That means it will probably contain some expensive HQ and some tricked out unit. So with the increased cost of the Land Raider, the HQ, and the full unit inside it, what percentage of your army is now all in one basket? :) I have no doubt people will still try to use Land Raiders for a short while. I also have no doubt that they are going the way of the Dodo. They were already becoming a rare sight in 5th Edition due to the cost and ease at which they were killed. The cost has now gone up and the ease in killing them has doubled and/or trebled. If they were a rare sight in 5th, one can only assume they will become a Blue Moon in 6th.

Why do you HAVE to have an HQ in there? Put a power armor squad cleaning HQ in a rhino next to it. Which one do they shoot? Keep a couple havoc squads in the back. Pluck a few of them out of the air while they try and take down transports. I agree its certainly expensive and we probably won't see many of them, but I think they still have a place in the meta.

[Caitsidhe]

Why do you HAVE to have an HQ in there? Put a power armor squad cleaning HQ in a rhino next to it. Which one do they shoot? Keep a couple havoc squads in the back. Pluck a few of them out of the air while they try and take down transports. I agree its certainly expensive and we probably won't see many of them, but I think they still have a place in the meta.

Hrm. I'm not sure I think this tactic is entirely sane. :) To deal with the problem I illustrated you suggest buying ANOTHER vehicle (from which people cannot assault) and run it alongside to make it harder for your opponent to decide which is better to kill? They will simply kill the assault vehicle and what comes out and have more time to kill the supposed distraction since they can't assault for another entire turn. I'm sure some people will insist (or continue to try) on using them, but unless there are some awesome (and better priced) Forge World variants legal for tournament play, you just aren't going to see them except on a Blue Moon.

[daedalus81]

Well I would presume you would have lots of other vehicles anyway. :P
I haven't seen tournies allowing Forgeworld in my area yet, but those variants are pretty neat.

[Lost Vyper]

I would venture a guess on that to be a big no on assaulting.

But the Vanguard veterans can do so, or has it changed in the 6th?

[Caitsidhe]

Well I would presume you would have lots of other vehicles anyway. :P
I haven't seen tournies allowing Forgeworld in my area yet, but those variants are pretty neat.

I do, but when I refer to buy my meaning was spend limited points on. :) Forge World has been allowed in numerous in my area and some of those variants are the way to go. If I can put 20+ in a vehicle and get it halfway across the board before it is blown with extra twin-linked lascannon shots on top.... then it becomes worth the points.

[daedalus81]

Just got a hold of the book. The OP of this thread was posting some serious bull****.

[Caitsidhe]

Just got a hold of the book. The OP of this thread was posting some serious bull****.

What is quoted incorrectly?

[TheStrategist]

Yes, please do let us know what is incorrect...

[daboarder]

Just got a hold of the book. The OP of this thread was posting some serious bull****.

Not really,

he ,missed a coupe of things like the sigil of corruption providing a 4++ increasing to 3++MoT, but mostly he's been accurate. hell he got the names of the artefacts right.

[Erronius]

On Land Raiders, I've never really seen the value of them, in 5th or 6th. Too many eggs in one basket, too expensive to be doubled up. And as mentioned, some armies can destroy it with impunity. Most armies rely on meltas to destroy Land Raiders, so in that sense their short range works for you, but Dark Eldar and Grey Knights don't suffer that problem.
Rhinos will always be better IMO. You can take 6 rhinos and 20 points of upgrades for the cost of a Chaos Land Raider, and you don't mind nearly as much if they get destroyed.

Sure, rhinos are "better" but it isn't as if rhinos are all that good especially if you are wanting to run an assault list. The limitations on movement and assault are so restrictive that I've been soured on rhinos for a while now. Rhinos don't pop as easy now, but the changes that they've instituted since the days of rhino rushing in 3rd make me feel like they WANT players to hoof it across the board, or to use rhinos to take objectives and let specialist assault squads (like raptors and bikes) take the fight to the enemy (coincidence that some of these units are getting MUCH cheaper?). The new 6" rule is kind of a kick in the jewels, so now you have to move even less in order to jump out the turn before you want to assault. I admit that rhino rushing combined with the rules for sweeping advance in 3rd where broken, but it's as though it has become more and more difficult with each codex. Every time I'm forced to have squads cower behind my rhinos for cover I have to laugh, and it isn't a "ha-ha" laugh, it's more of a "this is horrible" laugh. I always feel like I'm "on the clock" trying to get as many of my CC units stuck into CC, because it can take a while to actually get INTO CC now as it stands.

There are so many things that I'm unhappy about hearing that I'm losing count, lol. At least cultists are making a reappearance. I am still unhappy with berzerkers overall; I'd like them to be able to at least make a dent in other elite units instead of having to keep them away from certain enemies (seraphim, termies, etc) and relegate them to mopping the floor with IG troopers and the like (which most Chaos units can do anyways). I know that the days of termies having a 2D6 armor save is long gone, but I would seriously love to see current Berzerkers get chainaxes that have a -1 or -2 save modifier. Anything is better than praying that your opponent rolls a bucketload of 1s, and by contrast the AP of 4 is almost comical.

Still ticked about transports though. They add in a whole lot of new units but they can't throw in any LR variants or alternative transports? It's almost insulting when you see how many LR variants that are out there, and frankly I'm still on the fence on what to think about a $120 Horus Heresy book. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/smilies/mad.gif And don't even get me started on armies that get FLYING transports...not that I want a SM brick, but still.

[Learn2Eel]

Sure, rhinos are "better" but it isn't as if rhinos are all that good especially if you are wanting to run an assault list. The limitations on movement and assault are so restrictive that I've been soured on rhinos for a while now. Rhinos don't pop as easy now, but the changes that they've instituted since the days of rhino rushing in 3rd make me feel like they WANT players to hoof it across the board, or to use rhinos to take objectives and let specialist assault squads (like raptors and bikes) take the fight to the enemy (coincidence that some of these units are getting MUCH cheaper?). The new 6" rule is kind of a kick in the jewels, so now you have to move even less in order to jump out the turn before you want to assault. I admit that rhino rushing combined with the rules for sweeping advance in 3rd where broken, but it's as though it has become more and more difficult with each codex. Every time I'm forced to have squads cower behind my rhinos for cover I have to laugh, and it isn't a "ha-ha" laugh, it's more of a "this is horrible" laugh. I always feel like I'm "on the clock" trying to get as many of my CC units stuck into CC, because it can take a while to actually get INTO CC now as it stands.

There are so many things that I'm unhappy about hearing that I'm losing count, lol. At least cultists are making a reappearance. I am still unhappy with berzerkers overall; I'd like them to be able to at least make a dent in other elite units instead of having to keep them away from certain enemies (seraphim, termies, etc) and relegate them to mopping the floor with IG troopers and the like (which most Chaos units can do anyways). I know that the days of termies having a 2D6 armor save is long gone, but I would seriously love to see current Berzerkers get chainaxes that have a -1 or -2 save modifier. Anything is better than praying that your opponent rolls a bucketload of 1s, and by contrast the AP of 4 is almost comical.

Still ticked about transports though. They add in a whole lot of new units but they can't throw in any LR variants or alternative transports? It's almost insulting when you see how many LR variants that are out there, and frankly I'm still on the fence on what to think about a $120 Horus Heresy book. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/smilies/mad.gif And don't even get me started on armies that get FLYING transports...not that I want a SM brick, but still.

Rhinos are 35 points, around the same cost as a Chosen with a plasma gun. Whilst the Chosen will do more damage, the Rhino will protect the entire squad and give them serious mobility. If Rhinos were expensive, then they wouldn't be worth it. But even for assault armies, 35 points is not a steep price. Sure, you can't charge when you jump out, but remembering that they are still space marines, they are still rock hard. In that sense, it doesn't bother me or Khorne playing armies too much from what I've seen. It sucks, but you just work around it I guess.

Berzerkers actually do ok against Terminators. An 8-man squad (provided none have died from Shooting/Overwatch) can put out a butt load of attacks, and if the Skull Champion has a power fist and isn't in a challenge, all the better. The sheer number of saves you force is what does it - remembering that each Terminator you kill is worth about two Berzerkers. I know AP2 weaponry is great and all, but I can still kill Terminators the same way a lot of people always have; shooting, and forcing a sheer number of saves. Berzerkers will maul a lot of units in the game on the charge, they aren't the best to send against Terminators but again other similarly-priced units, they will do their job.

Well, most codexes don't have flying transports. Only Imperial Guard, Necrons, Blood Angels and Grey Knights have them in-codex IIRC. Chaos has access to the Storm Eagle I guess.

[Defenestratus]

I'm so looking forward to daemonically possessed transports eating their occupants. Thats going to be the highlight of my day fighting against chaos :P

*Abbadon steps into a land raider*

Rolls a 1

*Abbadon doesn't step out of land raider*

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Thanks Laz,

I love that the plague zombies are back. Such fun, fluffy troops. I can dust mine off now.

[Erronius]

Rhinos are 35 points, around the same cost as a Chosen with a plasma gun. Whilst the Chosen will do more damage, the Rhino will protect the entire squad and give them serious mobility. If Rhinos were expensive, then they wouldn't be worth it. But even for assault armies, 35 points is not a steep price. Sure, you can't charge when you jump out, but remembering that they are still space marines, they are still rock hard. In that sense, it doesn't bother me or Khorne playing armies too much from what I've seen. It sucks, but you just work around it I guess.

Berzerkers actually do ok against Terminators. An 8-man squad (provided none have died from Shooting/Overwatch) can put out a butt load of attacks, and if the Skull Champion has a power fist and isn't in a challenge, all the better. The sheer number of saves you force is what does it - remembering that each Terminator you kill is worth about two Berzerkers. I know AP2 weaponry is great and all, but I can still kill Terminators the same way a lot of people always have; shooting, and forcing a sheer number of saves. Berzerkers will maul a lot of units in the game on the charge, they aren't the best to send against Terminators but again other similarly-priced units, they will do their job.

Well, most codexes don't have flying transports. Only Imperial Guard, Necrons, Blood Angels and Grey Knights have them in-codex IIRC. Chaos has access to the Storm Eagle I guess.

Rhinos, sure they're cheap (I'm not debating that), but there isn't an affordable assault transport option for Chaos (one LR is a huge pointsink, 2 is insane) and while rhinos are affordable there is still a lot to be desired (imo). If we could get a LR variant with a higher transport capacity, I'd prob be happy. I will say that rhinos can soak a lot of punishment now, but the time it takes to get assault troops into CC with them is horrible.

Zerkers, yeah, but that's why I made mention of being forced to rely on people to roll 1s. I just wish it wasn't that way. Back in the day you could equip any number of Berzerkers with "assault weapons" so it was up to you as to how many points you wanted to spend and how to kit them out. You could do that with CSMs too, but oh what I wouldn't give to be able to upgrade those 2 PP into 2 PWs, 2 PFs, 2 power axes...! Sure they were 35pts a pop, but I've never liked the "less is more" philosophy, and it just seems like they made everything bland. And if I read things right zerkers actually got nerfed a little in one sense as they'll have less total attacks after the charge, but I heard that they'd also be cheaper. Frankly I'd like to have seen their points total raised some and more options added so that they weren't so one dimensional but that's just me /shrug.

As far as flying transports go, it does chap my hide a little. I know that not all armies have them, but I don't want to have to go to Forge World for a $140+ model that costs about what a LR does pointwise (meaning that past transporting 20 models or 10 termies, you're in the same boat as using a LR). We've always been limited in a lot of ways as far as speed goes, no land speeders, no attack bikes, far fewer transport options, and now if I read the rumors correctly if you even want to infiltrate you have to take one of a few specific character models? I can't imagine spawn are much better than they were, we get warp talons now but that seem a bit redundant...I was even surprised that they didn't put out the Hell Talon as a plastic kit.

Sorry if I seem put out, but I've been wanting to see some specific changes to any of the last 3 or so codexes but they seem to keep wandering out into left field in regards to what they do with Chaos. Def not wanting it to sound like I'm attacking you. At this rate FW will put out a Banelord model before Chaos gets another transport option, LOL. http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/images/visioncollison/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Caitsidhe]

I'm so looking forward to daemonically possessed transports eating their occupants. Thats going to be the highlight of my day fighting against chaos :P

*Abbadon steps into a land raider*

Rolls a 1

*Abbadon doesn't step out of land raider*

You won't see it very often because Transports are going to be rare and because the new rules on Daemonic Possession make it less appealing. The primary reason people took it was so that maximum shooting could continue. You could, for instance, zip around in a Rhino with a passenger using a Doom Siren from the fire point. You wouldn't want said passenger to lose shooting so you took the perk. Now only the vehicle (which doesn't have much in the way of good shooting) gets to keep going. So... vehicles tends to die easy.... they either get their maximum movement or someone kills them. Eh. Outside of a Land Raider you just aren't likely to the perk. Even then you aren't likely to see Abby in one.

[Caitsidhe]

As far as flying transports go, it does chap my hide a little. I know that not all armies have them, but I don't want to have to go to Forge World for a $140+ model that costs about what a LR does pointwise (meaning that past transporting 20 models or 10 termies, you're in the same boat as using a LR). We've always been limited in a lot of ways as far as speed goes, no land speeders, no attack bikes, far fewer transport options, and now if I read the rumors correctly if you even want to infiltrate you have to take one of a few specific character models? I can't imagine spawn are much better than they were, we get warp talons now but that seem a bit redundant...I was even surprised that they didn't put out the Hell Talon as a plastic kit.

Who says you have to? Conversions of models to become Forge World variations are just as legal as any conversion. I'm already in the process of converting some models into variants which I'm willing to field and it isn't costing me any a red cent. The truth is the book has LOTS of fail, but it has enough good to still be competitive. Warp Talons ARE redundant and largely worthless. Regular Raptors are a far better use of points. Spawn are better than they were assuming you can get them into combat (which you won't). :) The problem of 6th Edition is that they swung the balance too far the other way and now the gun is king. The trick is getting people into combat and until CSM has a reliable way to do so, they are going to suffer.