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40kGamer
10-06-2009, 06:27 AM
After gaming last night I need help with a clarifying a couple of rules.

1. Command squads of veterans can ride bikes and have the option of being armed with a BP+CCW. I have always played that they can not get an extra attack from being armed with 2 weapons due to being mounted on the bike. However there was a FAQ that you can use a two handed weapon on a bike and the rules do not specifically say that you can not get this attack.

2. For the command squad kit, can you give the Apothecary any wargear upgrades? I would like to give him a lightning claw.

3. Can you give the Company champion or Company standard bearer any additional wargear upgrades? I would like to give them Melta guns!

Any help is appreciated! :confused:

AirHorse
10-06-2009, 07:30 AM
Im thinking of investing in a "kor'sarro" on bike captain with an accompanying command squad so ive been thinking similar thoughts.

1. Theres nothing to my knowledge that prevents you from using a pistol + ccw on a bike.

2. This is the least clear thing to me, surely the apothecary is a vet, but then he is named different so wouldnt cry too much if hes not allowed wargear.

3. Not sure about the champion, but the standard bearer is definately able to take wargear as other vets. Champion becomes named differently so maybe not, same as the apothecary really.

40kGamer
10-06-2009, 08:10 AM
The Khan with a bike command squad is vicious in assaults! I've been running mine with a Lightning claw and Storm Shield since I thought they couldn't get the extra attack anyhow. It works so well that I doubt I'll change it up much - I might make one vet have a power weapon and BP for kicks!

My regular opponents are learning to really dislike this unit - it's expensive but nasty! And when you roll a '6' on an important to wound roll it is great! It doesn't happen for me that often but watching a wraithlord suffer instant death on even a rare occassion is still worth it for me! :D

sorienor
10-07-2009, 09:36 AM
1. Absolutely you get the extra attack. being on a bike is irrelevant, and there is nothing in the rules that says otherwise.

2. Nope. No upgrades. An 'apothecary' isn't a 'veteran'.

3. Nope. A 'company champion' isn't a 'veteran'.

GW rules are pretty literal for something like this.

Lerra
10-07-2009, 12:30 PM
3. Can you give the Company champion or Company standard bearer any additional wargear upgrades? I would like to give them Melta guns!


Well, according to the Dark Angel FAQ:

"Q:When I upgrade Deathwing and Ravenwing models to Standard Bearers and Apothecaries, can they still use items such as lightning claws, thunder hammers and storm shields, assault cannons, meltaguns, flamers, and plasma guns?

A: Yes, because they are extraordinary individuals."

I would argue that by RAI they are allowed to buy upgrades as if they were veterans. If you played against me, I'd allow it.

You could always contact GW directly and see if you can get an official answer for tournament play.

Unless of course it's only Dark Angels who are "extraordinary individuals."

40kGamer
10-07-2009, 01:16 PM
Maybe it's one of the few 'perks' Dark Angels have for being the 1st Legion! :D

SeattleDV8
10-07-2009, 04:20 PM
The difference is in the SM:C the Co. Champion and the Apothecary have their own stat. line and are upgrade characters.
The DA Apothecary and Standard Bearer are normal members of the squad with Wargear upgrades.

AirHorse
10-09-2009, 08:36 AM
Thing with the company champion is that he doesnt replace any of his wargear, simply gains more and changes stat line. Theres nothing to say you cant give the veteran wargear first then upgrade him to company champion. To the best of my knowledge there is nothing that makes it clear what order things should happen in.

Apothecary I agree with though, even though its daft that he cant take wargear, its the way they wrote the entry. Just like how it isnt a retinue, gg gamesworkshop :/.

DevilUknow
10-09-2009, 09:31 AM
its pretty simple.

If a model is called "Veteren" then he can have upgrades. If he is called "Company Champ" or "Apothecary", he cannot have those upgrades. When a vet becomes a company champ, his wargear is not grandfathered in with him.

There are a billion and one fluff reasons as to why a company champ SHOULD be able to carry a melta gun but Bobby Guilliman thinks otherwise.

AirHorse
10-09-2009, 09:36 AM
His wargear is carried accross... otherwise hed have no power armour or anything and it also doesnt say "replacing" as it does with upgrades that do actually remove your old wargear.

DevilUknow
10-09-2009, 09:51 AM
His wargear is carried accross... otherwise hed have no power armour or anything and it also doesnt say "replacing" as it does with upgrades that do actually remove your old wargear.

really...?

ugh.

p. 136

Command Squad

Wargear


Power armour
Chainsword
Frag and krak grenades
Boltgun or bolt pistol
Apothecary also has a narthecium


Note that the basic wargear for all members of the command squad, including the champ and the apothecary, are listed here.

when a vet becomes a champ he is equipped "...with a power weapon and combat shield." He doesn't lose his basic wargear. Also, that model is now called a Company Champion and thus does not have access to the Veteran Model Options.

If that isn't clear enough I pity the people you play with.

40kGamer
10-09-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm in the school of thought that the co champion can't take any additional wargear in the rules as written. I think it's silly that the apothecary can't take any additional gear, and the fact that the HQ squad is not a retinue really blows. It does allow you to put your Captain elsewhere and allow the HQ squad to get down to business without him. :p

For me the company champion is a cheap upgrade at 15 points and is the most expendable member of the group.

AirHorse
10-09-2009, 01:00 PM
First of all, no need to start with belittling comments like "I pity those you play with" thanks very much.

Second of all, what you said is exactly true, but the champion begins as a veteran so he could take equiptment before he gets upgraded. If you want a precedent about how the order can affect things look at the ork faq about changing equiptment in a boys mob. No where does it say what order things have to get done, so I think the arguement that its possible to swap his basic gear before being upgraded is perfectly valid.

DevilUknow
10-09-2009, 03:18 PM
The difference between this and the Ork Boy example is that all of the upgrades say that any ORK in the mob may take the upgrade (other than the one that states that a Boy may be upgraded to a Nob). Since Boys and Nobs are both orks, either one may take the upgrades.

If the Model Options said that any Space Marine or Any member of the Command Squad could replace blah blah blah then I'd agree, but it is very clear that only Veterans may take those options.

You can say your company Champ is a Veteran, but if that's the case he'd only have WS 4.

EmperorEternalXIX
10-09-2009, 04:43 PM
Logic is flawed a bit. In many entries it says "Any Space Marine" but these options do not apply to the "Space Marine Sergeant" ... who I would assume is a Space Marine. This is because there are other models in the squads simply labeled "Space Marines."