Going against BA + GK with Eldar

[Lost Vyper]

My friend just got his GK-allies for BA painted. I think, i´m going to enter a new level of *** whuppin. Has anyone played against these dudes with Eldar? Any tips? I don't know exactly what he has (1 hq & troop obviously), but i think it´s gonna be bad times for Farseers AND Avatar...

[Wildcard]

Well, problem here is that he can bring just about anything to the board (with even more ease, if you are ok with proxing) with GK involved. Unless you can figure out even a bit of his force there is uncounted possibilities for the GK, plus any form of special tips are gonna be in vain :)

Also, your post does not excactly reveal how well you are familiar with GK (or BA) before hand.

Give me some answers to these and ill happily help you out to the best of my abilities. (For example, do you need GK units and their roles opened to you, or some general tips and strategies)

(I play GK, but i've played quite a few matches against eldar player)

/Edit:

Farseer is gonna be your best defence against GK, since many of their abilities are psychic, and add runes of warding and your enemy will be throwing lots of perils with 3d6 on psychic tests.

Avatar: Not perhaps the best unit against GK because all their anti demon rules, gear and stuff. But still good to buff other troops i believe? And as monstrous creature he is AP2 if your enemy brings terminators, just remember to be the one who charges. (atleast because in that way your avatar wont be hitting with Ini 1
---------------------------
One more question:
- Do you use / allow imperial armour units ? (i've heard they are pretty awesome for eldar, don't know much about them otherwise)

And as a statement, against BA and GK eldar is gonna be feeling the hurt. If there is something GK now exels against its armies 4+ save with all the psycannons, incinerators, (and their heavy variants) and halberds (that makes them strike at initiative 6 and ignore practically all armor saves eldar can muster)

/end of edit

[Bob821]

I play blood angels and have no end of trouble with my friends footdar. Two wraith lords, Avatar, Aldred and a squad of dark reapers form the core of his list. I really struggle to kill all those MCs and dark reapers make a joke of spaces marine armour doubley so with his exarch boasted by some special power that egnors cover saves. Recently he has been running small squads of jet bikes to grab objectives later in the game as well.

[Mr Mystery]

Not an Eldar player but.....

I'd wager his army is likely to be small and hard. But that makes it fragile. Shuriken Cataputs are short ranged, but whack on Guide and Doom, and you stand a good chance of cutting his squads down. Follow up with say a Banshee charge, and that should be a dead unit.

Wraithlords. Hammerhand aside, he will struggle to hurt them. Use this.

Warwalkers. Scatter Lasers up the wazoo, and just pummel his squads into the dirt.

And keep it as fluid as possible. Ebb and flow to his battle line, and for Asuryan's sake, pick the fights yourself. His dead Killy troops are all fine and well until you run away, preventing them taking out squads.

Dark Reapers are of course good for early kills, but don't forget Rangers or Pathfinders. Sniper and Precision Shot should not be under estimated. Pick on his best elements in each squad. Expensive models do Nowt if they're dead!

[Seirin]

Okay. To reiterate a few things. Grey knights will usually be low in numbers, and as they aren't battle brothers with BA, their special rules won't interact.

That said. Grey knights, librarian aside, do nothing to hinder your self-targeted psychic powers, and with runes of witnessing, tbh you're aggressive powers aren't likely to fail often either. Go for the good ol' combos - fortune, guide, doom/mind war.

Grey knights are a midfield army with pretty awesome effective range, HOWEVER, at further than 30" they become pretty ineffective. By ineffective I mean totally out of range. Eldar don't suffer that so much so use it.

Can't say this enough but, don't neglect his BA, as the main use for GK allies is as a distraction.


As for useful units, wraithlords as has been said. Farseers are amazing (but aren't they always?) and banshees with axes can reap a nice amount of hell. Dire avengers with bladestorm in a serpent can work well as you can close from 31" to within shooting range, disembark and mow down most squads in one round.

Maybe the worst unit for GK to take out is a fully kitted up seer council on jet bikes. Its just a fun unit all told really.

[Psyfer]

I'd recommend Pathfinders, Snipers ignoring armour an a 5 or a 6 to hit is well worth it, and the Space Marines will have a hard time dragging out of cover unless they get close.

Wraithguard are short ranged but stupidly tough, Fearless, Wound on a fixed value and instant kill on a 6. Make sure to throw in a Warlock into the unit, I'd probably keep said unit small and have them ride in a Wave Serpent to avoid Vindicare sniper shinanigans, deploying the unit when in range to nuke a unit/Dreadknight. Personally, I'd give the Warlock a Singing Spear and either Conceal or Enhance, Conceal for the cover save or Enhance as that makes the Wraithguard a nasty tarbaby unit (T6, S5, WS5, I5, 3+ save) should anyone decide to charge it. Wraithlords are also worth considering, but make sure to have them close to a Warlock or Farseer to avoid Ghostsight tests. Upgrading some of your Warlocks to Spiritseers will help mitigate this as well.

A Farseer (or two) and seer council will provide you with a solid CC unit that isn't concerned about the opponent's toughness (though their armour will still be annoying), try to get a good mix of Warlock powers in the seer council (I'd aim for at least one of each per council), with Inspire and Enhance as high priorities (Having the Farseer able re-roll his psychic tests is always a good thing, as is the +1 WS and +1 I). Doom and Guide are always at the top of my list for psychic powers, but Mind War is also a good way of eliminating Sargents, special weapons and the like, and if you're lucky you can nail a character with it. Runes of Warding are a must vs Grey Knights, and I'd recommend taking Eldrad along, he's one of the most potent psykers in the game and ignores armour in CC.

Speaking of ignoring armour, Prince Yriel is worth considering by virtue of him having a ranged attack that ignores armour (throwing the Spear of Twilight) as well as fearsome close combat abilities. He's right at home in a squad of Howling Banshees (give the Exarch both Exarch abilities and Mirror Blades, again they ignore armour) or a Seer Council to get bonuses from Warlock powers. Eye of Wrath can take a lump out of Power-armoured squads (S6 AP3), but be careful as it hits everyone in the area of effect (large blast template centered on Yriel) except for Yriel himself. As such, it can be worthwhile to detach him and send him after a specific target (Squads over characters for the Eye of Wrath), drop the nuke and consolidate into any survivors. Yriel's high armour save (+3) and invulnerable save (+4) makes him about as tough as Eldar come, and if you pick on the right squad he should be able to weather the attacks that get through his WS of 6. However, Yriel is IMO one of the best character/monster hunters in the game, using him to hunt down your opponent's Dreadknights, HQ choices (particularly Mephestion) is more likely to pay off. His initiative is high enough that he's going to be striking first 9 times out of 10, and on the charge he throws out 5 attacks that wound on +2 ignoring armour. Even a Grey Knight Grand Master is going to feel the hurt from that.

Wave Serpents are a viable unit, their shielding rules circumvent things like Rending. Vindicare-Turbo-penetration rounds and Melta rules (which a BA-GK list will most likely be spamming). Use them to deploy either Wraithguard (see above) or Fire Dragons (I'd probably lean towards using the Firepike, but definitely both Exarch powers) rapidly and generally make a nuisance of themselves. Starcannon and Bright Lances would be my primary weapons of choice, upgrading the secondary weapons to shuriken cannon may also pay off (S6 Assault 3 isn't to be sneezed at, but it's only AP4).

Finally, some general advice:

This is one of the rare times that Eldar are liable to outnumber their opponents, use that to your advantage. Draw out enemy units and then hit them hard. Keep mobile, try to pick your fights and use terrain and general sneakiness to protect your forces as best you can. If the opposing troops get isolated, rip them to shreds. Don't try to stop him head on, attempt to evade his attacks or use bait (e.g. the Wraithguard) to stall the assault or turn it to your favor. Do what you can to make sure the Space Marines are where you want them to be.

I hope the above advice helps, best of luck with the game.

[Seirin]

Ok first, wave serpents don't negate vindicare's turbo penetrator. Its a special rule innate to the weapon itself and unless you can produce a FAQ saying otherwise, turbo pen sticks.

Yriel will get toasted by most grand masters. The usual weapon loadout is either a sword or a halberd. Hally will have the GM striking first, sword will give him the 3++ and negate most of the wounds. In return with rad grenades, he doesn't even need to force weapon you to death. Thats before counting the effects of psychotrope grenades.

Wraithguard get destroyed by grey knights, and by most things really - their range is just too short.

Pathfinders are good, but the 'unless they get close' line..hes playing against blood angels. No marine army screams 'getting close' as much as BA.

[noahwood]

First of all, don't panic! There are few things in the game a well tuned Eldar army can't overcome. It would be really helpful to know what you own before I start dispensing advice. Also, please tell us how you like to play your Eldar. I play a mostly foot list with some wave serpent support and I have found it to be really potent.

Again, I would love to troubleshoot a list with you, but I think we need more details first. Also, I usually try to build a list that will work against just about anything it faces; however, if you want to build to counter your friend, let us know what he typically brings with his BA.

Cheers,

Noah

[Psyfer]

Ok first, wave serpents don't negate vindicare's turbo penetrator. Its a special rule innate to the weapon itself and unless you can produce a FAQ saying otherwise, turbo pen sticks.

Energy Field (Wave Serpent entry, Eldar Codex p45): 'all ranged attacks never roll more then 1d6 for penetration'



Yriel will get toasted by most grand masters. The usual weapon loadout is either a sword or a halberd. Hally will have the GM striking first, sword will give him the 3++ and negate most of the wounds. In return with rad grenades, he doesn't even need to force weapon you to death. Thats before counting the effects of psychotrope grenades.

Fair cop, didn't have my GK codex on hand and forgot about the Nemesis weapon special rules. My bad. I still think Yriel's good value, but yes, I see your point vs. the GK Grand master.


Wraithguard get destroyed by grey knights, and by most things really - their range is just too short.

Pathfinders are good, but the 'unless they get close' line..hes playing against blood angels. No marine army screams 'getting close' as much as BA.

Wraithguard: Hence why I suggested sticking them in a transport, mitigates some of the range issues. True, a volley from a Purgation or Devastator Squad's going to ruin their day, but the Wave Serpent should be able to get them close enough to get a volley off, maybe even charge in to tie up a unit (prolly not the GKs but against a squad of Blood Angels for sure. They'll be hard pressed to wound them).

Pathfinders: Yes, Blood Angels are very mobile. Pathfinders I've found to be best used as a lethal distraction, set them up using Infiltrate and Scout somewhere nicely out of the way and plink at valuable units. Either the other player's got to devote resources to go after them and away from the bulk of your army or accept that they'll be picking off troops all day long. Either works in your favor, even with a very mobile army because you can use it to control how he's moving (not to mention pinning checks, yes, Space Marines are likely to pass them, but the chances of immobilizing a unit through Ld check failures greatly increased). Setting things up so whatever goes after the Pathfinders has to expose itself to other stuff in the process is often a good way to go.

[Wildcard]

and banshees with axes can reap a nice amount of hell.

Page 63 – Howling Banshees, Wargear.
Change the entry to read the following:
Wargear: Banshee mask, shuriken pistol and power sword.

Edit: That was from the latest Eldar FaQ (v1.1)

[Lost Vyper]

Blood Angels is my n.1 enemy and i´ve played LOADS of times against them, i pretty much got a handle on their shenanigans. It´s the GK, that i´ve never played against. I have made a very shooty list, only Harlequins with Farseer/Eldrad in the CC department. I trust in the amount of shots, rather than AP2 weaponry and keeping a good 36" range on them. I know, that BA´s gonna drop some pods/Storm Ravens on my rear, but hey, as i said, i´m used to it :).
I twisted my list a bit, and threw in an Autarch (Fusion Gun) with Swooping hawks for surprising HIS rear. I haven´t played SH`s in about four months, so he wont be expecting them OR the Autarch (never wielded him).I´ll post that list in the Army lists section, if you are interested, feedback most welcome.

[Xarplo]

I see no one's mentioned taking allies yourself. Dark Eldar have a lot of good options to counter both BA and GK. Harliestars can be nearly impervious to all damage if done right. With the new FAQ, Incubi will make everyone cry, and Huskblades are spectacular against Paladins and anything with FNP. As for pure Eldar, you can't go wrong with Fire Dragons, and double Scatter Laser Warwalkers just put out so many shots that your opponent will start failing saves regardless of how good his saves are.

[Lost Vyper]

Ok, the match is done. If you want to see the BATREP about it, quit reading this NOW (spoilers ahead :) )
So this is what i learned, Knights fall, when you blast them to smithereens. But on the other hand, in close combat, the grenades are just frakkin annoying. C´mon, oh, i´m leadership 2 now and i dont get the charge bonus? Really? And Justicar, gotsdammit, is he a necron? Back with 4+, have to be killed in the end of the game to get the Slay the warlord? But anyways, they are not so scary, when you got the chance to shoot from the distance (he didnt teleport), but the Harlequins got to CC in the last turn, so i didnt get the chance to see the end result of that crudgematch. Eldrad + Harlies work like a charm, War Walkers with SL´s work, Pathfinders and precision shot work, Swooping Hawks + Autarch not so well, they couldnt deliver and fell in one round. Autarch took 11 wounds and saved about 9-10, so that was awesome, and the grenade pack killed 3 marines but the Fusion gun+1 haywire grenade took only 2 hull points of the Predator. So, i lost 9-5, but it was a tight and a good game, i didn't make huge mistakes/forgot things, so the next game with about 1000p (he brought the Knights again) i won 3-1, so, there we go ;)

[Uncle Nutsy]

If you want to, you can throw some corsairs into the mix for some deepstriking shenanigans for the next game.

no one expects a big group of wraithguard to show up inside 18" from nowhere courtesy of the prince.