Can a Marine Chapter do this?

[gwensdad]

This was a background theory I was thinking of doing, maybe as a RPG thing or an army idea...

Let's say there's a Astartes chapter on a high-population world. They have a good sized PDF and can recruit their marines at a fairly good rate but one day the chapter master figures out that he's missing out on recruiting half the good warriors out there-the women. So he decides to "sponsor" (via providing equipment and facilities) a minor Adepta Sororitas order (a new one, not an existing one) in the same system. The theory is that they could accompany the marines (the PDF can't) on some battles or could be asked to go alone if there's a situation in a nearby system and the chapter doesn't feel it needs their attention.

The Good:
Both have a solid backup
The "talent" doesn't go to waste in fighting the enemies of the Imperium
A chance to model matching power armor in 2 very different armies

The Bad:
Who is really in charge? The sisters would hate having a marine chapter master bossing them around.
The Ecclesiarchy would probably have a problem with it.
There's the religious differences of the 2 groups.

So does any of this work? Or make sense? Or is...HERESY?

[modelguyicmt]

Well, Sororitas are only recruited from the orphans of imperial servants, just like commissars and storm troopers.

[Mr.Pickelz]

The biggest issue is the recognition of the Sororitas, are they tied to the church or to the Astartes? The church will have lots of issues with a Marine chapter being permanently in charge, as the Sorrita's are there for the church's goals and interests, and the marines will have different ones as well as approach tactics. Not all chapters like flamer-happy women... Now, to have a Chapter suggest to the church, as well as support (with craft and man-power) the establishment of a new order, you may find their (church) support for it and indeed start the Order, but it will be under the leadership of the Church, and not the Chapter.

[ElectricPaladin]

I think it's more likely that a Marines chapter could, over time, gradually come to develop a close association with a group of Sisters to the point that their hierarchies become enmeshed. The Ecclesiarchy wouldn't like it, but as the Marines are officially part of the Imperium, they can't do much more than frown about it.

What's more interesting to me is how the Marines and Sisters will deal with each other. Don't forget, most Marines are basically atheists. They have a fetish for rituals, but they're pretty clear on the "truth:" the Emperor was nothing more than an abnormally awesome human who founded the Imperium for the good of all after spending decades wiping out religion. The Sisters are the military arm of the church that has made a religion about the Emperor. How do they manage that?

[Wolfshade]

If they worked together with an historic common goal, like purging witches then you can see a good argument why they would be workign together.

[Psychosplodge]

Surely they can equip and take their serfs however and wherever they want, so they wouldn't need to found a minor order.

[DarkDesigner]

I don't see why they need to be anything to do with the Sisters of Battle, they could just be a well armoured (due to being sponsored by a marine chapter), highly disciplined force that just happen to be all female.

So, you use the SoB list, but don't include any of the Ecclesiarchal stuff to make it as fem-mariney as possible.

From a fluff point of view, the Sisters of Silence who were around during the Heresy wouldn't worship the Emperor, so hopefully over the 10,000 years since there may still be some of that order who are still more of the mindset of SM.

The only thing you can't really do is say that they've been genhanced in the same way as marines, as there is no technological advancement in 40k, and back in the day the Emperor, whatever else he may have been, was also a massive chauvinist to whom it never occured that he could have a female primarch.

Unless...

[Psychosplodge]

It's not chauvinism, he started with his male DNA and worked backwards....hence all male primachs...

[DarkDesigner]

It's not chauvinism, he started with his male DNA and worked backwards....hence all male primachs...

The man has the most impressive science in the world, not to mention a pact with the Chaos gods, and he can't be bothered to take two X chromosomes and make a daughter?

He's already gone to the trouble of making each of them a specialise in a different facet of war, from running in headlong, siege warfare, espionage, so why not?

[Wildeybeast]

The man has the most impressive science in the world, not to mention a pact with the Chaos gods, and he can't be bothered to take two X chromosomes and make a daughter?

He's already gone to the trouble of making each of them a specialise in a different facet of war, from running in headlong, siege warfare, espionage, so why not?

And don't forget all vertebrates are inherently female so genetically speaking it's not that hard. We are more less at a stage where we can engineer gender now, so the Emperor could have easily do so.

As to the OP, Chapter Masters are a law unto themselves and can do more or less what they want, so they could easily create such an organisation. As others have mentioned, it's highly doubtful the Ecclesiarchy would ever accept an order being under the permanent command of the SM, so you would struggle to say they are 'true' Sisters. Better to make them an all female PDF force.

[Chris*ta]

The man has the most impressive science in the world, not to mention a pact with the Chaos gods, and he can't be bothered to take two X chromosomes and make a daughter?

He's already gone to the trouble of making each of them a specialise in a different facet of war, from running in headlong, siege warfare, espionage, so why not?

:sticks fingers in ears: La la LAAAA!!! I can't hear you! I can't hear you! ;)

Really, bringing up actual science in 40k, For shame! :rolleyes:


And don't forget all vertebrates are inherently female so genetically speaking it's not that hard.

I'm not sure if that's entirely true. My (admittedly limited) understanding of genetics says that birds and reptiles have an entirely different set of sex chromosomes, Z and W. The males are ZZ, and the females are ZW. I think this means they default to male in some sense, but won't swear to it. I read it on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome#ZW_sex_chromosomes), so it must be true.

Ahh, complaining about science in 40k and then discussing genetics on the forum in the same post. Irony level: Expert.

[gwensdad]

What if (tosses gas on fire) Primarchs 2 & 11 were women?

[DarkDesigner]

What if (tosses gas on fire) Primarchs 2 & 11 were women?

That's exactly my point :D Although I doubt that both Primarchs were women, that would be too much... plus it's still sexist that the only female legion(s) are the ones that went missing. Either to not being good enough fighters or leaving the galaxy in a strop.

I reckon they used to exist but they went the way of the Squats and the Zoats. Apparently the PMS Fists just weren't PC enough for 21stC GW.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

:sticks fingers in ears: La la LAAAA!!! I can't hear you! I can't hear you! ;)

Really, bringing up actual science in 40k, For shame! :rolleyes:

I'm not sure if that's entirely true. My (admittedly limited) understanding of genetics says that birds and reptiles have an entirely different set of sex chromosomes, Z and W. The males are ZZ, and the females are ZW. I think this means they default to male in some sense, but won't swear to it. I read it on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome#ZW_sex_chromosomes), so it must be true.

Ahh, complaining about science in 40k and then discussing genetics on the forum in the same post. Irony level: Expert.Yup, yer correct on many of the reptiles (bio/genetics major speaking :P). There all sorts of weird forms of gender-determination out there in vertebrates (some switch gender [not all species use sex chromosomes to determine gender], some depend on incubation temperature, a couple have XY that can be overridden by incubation temperature, Platypi are damn weird and have XYXYXYXYXY or XXXXXXXXXX etc). (Not all reptiles are ZW, though some are XY, some do the temp thing, some do a mixture :P).

---

I think it's safe to assume that all normal science applies to 40k unless specifically overridden in the fluff (i.e. Daemons). Personally, since the primary reasoning behind the lack of female marines is hilarious (organs only compatible with "male tissue types"?!), I'm thinking it's mainly that humans in the setting have no understanding of most science, so just stick to tradition :P And it was easier to mass produce marines in the Crusade if the process was standardized for males of a certain age.

Chances are the Emperor didn't consider gender to be significant enough to warrant a fiddling, he's an immortal, eldritch being, after all, and all of his genesons/grandsons seem pretty libidoless. (Although there are the Sensei...)

[Wolfshade]

Not wishing to break the 4th wall, but I think the main reason is is because back in the 80s when this was made, while the idea of women serving in the military was not new it certainly wasn't common place. Furthermore, women serving in combat is still not universal. It is one of these ideas that is of its time and there has been efforts to redress this more laterly.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Not wishing to break the 4th wall, but I think the main reason is is because back in the 80s when this was made, while the idea of women serving in the military was not new it certainly wasn't common place. Furthermore, women serving in combat is still not universal. It is one of these ideas that is of its time and there has been efforts to redress this more laterly.Yup, but one of the joys of that is that it makes the setting quirkier/weirder when it has to be re-explained later :D

[Wolfshade]

Oh certainly. The obvious one is that the Emperor didn't roll that way, notice there is no Mrs Emperor, he creates an army of men, surrounds himself with males, nudge nudge winkwink.

Or

The Emperor likes the ideal of women being figures of creation and life so the idea of women doing the same is disdainful to him

Or

The Emperor is a misognist

[WarHammerman]

Well, there is also this:
The army you play is yours. Build it, sculpt it, and play it any way you want. As long as the golden WYSIWYG rule is followed, then you're good. Some people may get in a twist about base sizes, but otherwise its all what you want to do.

So if you wanna make Lady Marines, fine. You wanna use an allied detachment of Sisters? Cool. =D
Follow the games rules, and you can do anything you want to your models. Have fun!

[ElectricPaladin]

IF there were a good reason for male marines, it would probably be one of these:

1) Human males are naturally more aggressive - I'm NOT saying they're more fit for military service, just more aggressive, which is a known quality of testosterone - and the Emperor might have wanted that for his space marines.

2) It's easier to maintain a successful breeding population with fewer males than it is with fewer females, since one male can impregnate multiple females, but a single female can only be pregnant with one child at a time. If the Emperor were concerned that aggressive recruitment in the case of some future galactic threat - remember, this is the Emperor imagining a situation in which he and the Primarchs are still around, so there's no shortage of geneseed - could not create a too harmful a genetic bottleneck - ie. they take 80% of a planet's men and recruit them into space marines or kill them trying, but the remaining 20% can still help repopulate the world without resulting in an inbred population.

Frankly, though, the creative sex/political reasons are most accurate. There are male space marines because at the time that 40k was invented, everyone thought soldier = male. The attitude shifts of the ensuing decades led to the creation of female IG regiments and the Sisters of Battle.

[Wolfshade]

There are male space marines because at the time that 40k was invented, everyone thought soldier = male. The attitude shifts of the ensuing decades led to the creation of female IG regiments and the Sisters of Battle.

Seriously dude, they haven't been created yet, that's the future...

[ElectricPaladin]

Seriously dude, they haven't been created yet, that's the future...

From your perspective. We see things differently in the Warp California. In California.

[Denzark]

Yes but the only existing canon on the subject states geneseed could only be implanted in males. Unless these Primarchs are post-op trannies...?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yes but the only existing canon on the subject states geneseed could only be implanted in males. Unless these Primarchs are post-op trannies...?Yeah, but "canon" in 40k is malleable enough (not that that's a bad thing - cake is also malleable, and delicious!) that it strikes a bunch of people as discussion-worthy. "Previous Magos Biologos assumptions were wrong, Geneseed can apply to women using x.y.z. changes to treatment." would probably be the softest, gentlest retcon 40k has ever experienced :P

[ElectricPaladin]

yeah, but "canon" in 40k is malleable enough (not that that's a bad thing - cake is also malleable, and delicious!) that it strikes a bunch of people as discussion-worthy. "previous magos biologos assumptions were wrong, geneseed can apply to women using x.y.z. Changes to treatment." would probably be the softest, gentlest retcon 40k has ever experienced :p

qft

[Denzark]

canon is canon. Until GW retcons, anything anyone comes up with will be crappy fanfic and not genuine 40K. There must be a reason why GW hasn't specifically unequivocally called female marines. They have however stated the direct and polar opposite. And I don't think this would/could be the missing 2 legions - the thought that 2 entire legions of birds were wiped out by blokes would cause far more hassle than the odd grwol by bleeding heart liberals who think sexism in a ficitional game about genocide on an intergalactic scale, is a problem and not gross hypocrisy.

[Kyban]

Well there's no reason geneseed couldn't be adapted to allow female space marines other than lack of technical knowledge.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

canon is canon. Until GW retcons, anything anyone comes up with will be crappy fanfic and not genuine 40K. There must be a reason why GW hasn't specifically unequivocally called female marines. They have however stated the direct and polar opposite. And I don't think this would/could be the missing 2 legions - the thought that 2 entire legions of birds were wiped out by blokes would cause far more hassle than the odd grwol by bleeding heart liberals who think sexism in a ficitional game about genocide on an intergalactic scale, is a problem and not gross hypocrisy.Firstly, it's not a sexism thing! "Bleeding heart liberals"? Leave politics out of my plastic space mans, thanks :P When people ask "Maybe the Emperor was a bit sexist?" It's not condemning the game, it's just speculation about one particular character - it's interesting to think about how this almighty eldritch god-man could've had some very human flaws, like how he treated his sons. (But then there are the points that his decision might've been motivated by factors such as efficiency, or aggression - hence, discussion).

I don't think there's any issue in saying that "Geney-things can only make men into steroid monsters!" I also don't think there's any problem with saying "The developers have mentioned that all fluff is from a flawed, in-universe viewpoint, and humans know very little about science. I think the process can be adapted to women." The setting's pretty much made to leave a lot of stuff as weird/mysterious, and let the player fill in the blanks (or overwrite the unstable!).

And I've seen some awesome female marines fanfiction, thank you very much :P Also seen plenty of horrific KK-cup breasts sculpted on power armour /shudder

[DarkDesigner]

It really makes me laugh that gwensdad's original question about having an allied force of SM sponsored SoB has evolved into a conversation encompassing sexism, genetics, liberal feminism, the lost Primarchs and questioning the Emperor of mankind's sexuality...

[Kyban]

It really makes me laugh that gwensdad's original question about having an allied force of SM sponsored SoB has evolved into a conversation encompassing sexism, genetics, liberal feminism, the lost Primarchs and questioning the Emperor of mankind's sexuality...

Isn't that how all our threads go? ;)

[DarkDesigner]

Isn't that how all our threads go? ;)

Nope, no-one's mentioned Bronies yet... oh, damn.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Nope, no-one's mentioned Bronies yet... oh, damn.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/157/827/33553+-+Alicorn+artist+Sanity-X+crossover+Dragon+Emperor_Celestia+Luna_Heresy+po nified+ponyhammer+Sanguinius_ponified+war+warhamme r_40k.jpg

Space Marines display Chapter heraldry on their left pauldron. Ponies have a cutie-mark on their left flank. COINCIDENCE?

[Nabterayl]

Soooooooo, back to the OP ...

As others have pointed out, Adepta Sororitas don't recruit from "women." They recruit from "women graduates of the schola progenium," so a new Order Militant doesn't actually tap the local female warrior population.

Besides that, from a military/lore perspective, gwensdad, my question would be why the chapter master would want to sponsor an Order Militant rather than create a women's auxiliary under his own command. He might have good reasons, I suppose, but space marines aren't exactly known for sharing. Since an Order Militant Majoris numbers "thousands" of sisters, an Order Militant Minoris could easily be about a thousand sisters - the women's version of the chapter, essentially. Marines are already perfectly willing to take children from their families and subject them to training rigorous enough to kill an appreciable number of trainees, so I don't think it would be difficult for their training program to match that of the Adepta Sororitas. Place the organization under sufficiently capable leadership and you have a force that has the same military capabilities as an Order Militant without needing to interface with the Ecclesiarchy at all.

Except, of course, for some of their vehicles. If you wanted to model this on the tabletop, you would have to explain how a chapter forge got access to some of the Ecclesiarchy's most jealously guarded STC patterns - but depending on the units you want to take, that might not be an issue (e.g., Penitent Engines have no space marine equivalent; Immolators, though a jealously guarded Ecclesiarchy STC, can easily be modeled as Razorbacks, which the chapter would be able to build).

I can think of one good reason not to do that, though, which is that marines have trouble supporting their own needs, let alone those of another thousand power-armored troops. Simply doubling the number of power-armored, bolter-armed troops in the field is probably beyond most chapters' capacities. Placing the organization under somebody else's command means the chapter doesn't have to maintain it, and you could easily just create a treaty between the chapter and the new organization - space marines do that sort of thing all the time. But even then, you'd have to decide what the chapter master's true goal was. If it was to add power armored shock troops to the system's defense capabilities, then it might well make sense to sponsor an Order Militant (not that PDF can't wear power armor, but marines might well be sufficiently blinkered not to think of that, or perhaps the chapter master has better relations with the local cardinals than he does with the local governors - am I to take it that the chapter in question owns a world but not a system?). If the goal was to take advantage of an untapped female warrior population (because ... I guess the local PDF doesn't recruit women?), then it probably makes more sense simply to instruct the local PDF to, you know, stop recruiting only men.

[Denzark]

This issue isn't a blank, the fluff states the process could only be done to males.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

One option might be for the Chapter to "adopt" an Order that's been spurned by the Ecclesiarchy (often corrupt, sometimes at odds with the Sisters).

Say; the local Order Genericus has fought alongside Chapter Gwensdad. Order Genericus discovers corruption in the local branch of the Ecclesiarchy, which they identify as a Slaaneshi Cult. Order Genericus purges 'em with fire. Ecclesiarchy flips out, sends a punitive force from a different Order, Chapter Gwensdad steps in to help the Genericus, there's a punch-up, then ceasefire. Order Genericus is now cut off from Ecclesiarchy supply and relies on Chapter Gwensdad (and the Chapter's connections with forgeworlds) for repairs, draw recruits from similar grounds as the Chapter.

[ElectricPaladin]

It really makes me laugh that gwensdad's original question about having an allied force of SM sponsored SoB has evolved into a conversation encompassing sexism, genetics, liberal feminism, the lost Primarchs and questioning the Emperor of mankind's sexuality...

Speaking to that, I still want an answer to my question: in this scenario, how do the religious Sisters and the atheistic/ritualistic Astartes get along?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Probably depends on the Chapter. The jerkass Marines Malevolent (the clue's in the name) would probably mock the concept, and they'd get in a fight. Salamanders would probably tactfully avoid the topic, and they'd get along fine.

I'd imagine most of the time it wouldn't pop up too much? They both shout "FOR THE EMPEROR!", I doubt they slow down long enough to discuss what each other actually mean by that :P

Edit: Even if they were closely allied, doubt they'd socialize and philosophize together much. If the Chapter's especially arrogant, maybe they'd see themselves as gods among mere humans, and it's only right for non-Astartes to respect the Emperor as a god?

[Iyandagar]

If you have paid the crackers money for a bunch of Sisters, or IG with ladies heads on or even, Marines with green stuffed bumps and lady bounces on and want them in Ultramarine livery or any other you can come up with, do it. They are yours, fill your boots. A side note, I love reading these threads and the comments that come across as factual like this has actually happened.

I love the hobby, I love the fluff, however my Eldar force is from a made up Craftworld, the name of which is vaguely Welsh, not sure why, they just are. Sisters from a made up Order, Orks look like a bunch of scavenger twits. Chaos Marines are a mix from the Black Legion, World Eaters and Word Bearers and my Dark Angels are spot on with the fluff.

I let my imagination run riot in the main part.

[DarkDesigner]

This issue isn't a blank, the fluff states the process could only be done to males.

While I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, I feel you have missed the point of the other side's argument. The 40k fluff also states that it is illegal to innovate new technology. It is a perfectly valid point to say that it is scientifically possible that it could work on females, but because there isn't a precedent, they won't experiment and as far as the Space Marines are concerned it can't be done.

Therefore someone could reasonably argue that their fem-marines were developed from a newly discovered STC (as GW constantly does when they want to make new vehicles or units), or are from a non-imperial human world who had access to Space Marine genetech and illegally started improving on the techniques, or even to theorise that the Emperor in his infinite wisdom developed the technique for his daughter primarch but was forced to delete the legion from the records in case the male marines suddenly discovered an interest in sex.

[Chris*ta]

This issue isn't a blank, the fluff states the process could only be done to males.

@ Dark Designer: Don't even need to invoke that.

The fluff that states that the process can only be used on males is, like, three editions old.

The most up to date stuff (C:SM 5th ed p. 10) never mentions sex. So the only up to date evidence we have is that GW hasn't modelled a female space marine.

But you never know, maybe all the ones with helmets on are really girls :eek:

[Denzark]

While I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, I feel you have missed the point of the other side's argument. The 40k fluff also states that it is illegal to innovate new technology. It is a perfectly valid point to say that it is scientifically possible that it could work on females, but because there isn't a precedent, they won't experiment and as far as the Space Marines are concerned it can't be done.

Therefore someone could reasonably argue that their fem-marines were developed from a newly discovered STC (as GW constantly does when they want to make new vehicles or units), or are from a non-imperial human world who had access to Space Marine genetech and illegally started improving on the techniques, or even to theorise that the Emperor in his infinite wisdom developed the technique for his daughter primarch but was forced to delete the legion from the records in case the male marines suddenly discovered an interest in sex.

Yes but it wouldn't be canon unless GW did it. therefore not 40K.


@ Dark Designer: Don't even need to invoke that.

The fluff that states that the process can only be used on males is, like, three editions old.

The most up to date stuff (C:SM 5th ed p. 10) never mentions sex. So the only up to date evidence we have is that GW hasn't modelled a female space marine.

But you never know, maybe all the ones with helmets on are really girls :eek:

Christa there is no timeline on fluff especially canon. It remains extant until changed. NOT mentioning sex falls far short of GW saying it is done - particularly when they have already said it can't be done. You can't be half dead, this is absolutes here and until GW says it is possible then their original statement stands.

I am not going to hijack this thread (any more than I have done - sorry OP) so happy to debate this elsewhere. 40K is owned by GW and when they reverse their original position FSMs are possible. Until then unlucky.

[Chris*ta]

Yes but it wouldn't be canon unless GW did it. therefore not 40K.



Christa there is no timeline on fluff especially canon. It remains extant until changed. NOT mentioning sex falls far short of GW saying it is done - particularly when they have already said it can't be done. You can't be half dead, this is absolutes here and until GW says it is possible then their original statement stands.

I am not going to hijack this thread (any more than I have done - sorry OP) so happy to debate this elsewhere. 40K is owned by GW and when they reverse their original position FSMs are possible. Until then unlucky.

Ooh, pretty colours. :rolleyes:

There is a timeline on fluff. It's no longer strongly canon as it's out of date, and it's been restated several times since then without any comment on sex.

And, if we limited ourselves to just what GW do, then they'd be no IG other than Cadians and Catachans, they'd be no Hydras or Griffins, etc.

Oh, and I'm personally of the opinion that there aren't any female space marines. I just don't feel the need to attempt to enforce that opinion on other people.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Here, some salient points from a GW/BL higher-up; "Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting... The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this... If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it... What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

[Chris*ta]

Here, some salient points from a GW/BL higher-up; "Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting... The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this... If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it... What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

This.

I got a similar, though less eloquent answer from Jes when I asked about Space Marines' shoulderpads.

[DarkDesigner]

I am not going to hijack this thread (any more than I have done - sorry OP) so happy to debate this elsewhere. 40K is owned by GW and when they reverse their original position FSMs are possible. Until then unlucky.

I'll accept that, and yes I should probably give my apologies to the OP for my part in the tangent this thread has taken. I see you've posted a new thread for this topic so if I have anything to add there I'll continue this there :)

For gwensdad then, I guess the thing to take from all this is that everyone has their own opinions, and some people are more flexible about it than others. At the end of the day if you want to write something into your background, do it, and if someone has a problem with it, don't play them. In my opinion I think that having a unique background is better than not having a background at all, even if it isn't something I personally agree with.

[Chris*ta]

@ Dark Designer: That sounds suspiciously like a willingness to compromise, and on the internet, no less.

Heresy!!! I say! HERESY!!! :p

[DarkDesigner]

@ Dark Designer: That sounds suspiciously like a willingness to compromise, and on the internet, no less.

Heresy!!! I say! HERESY!!! :p

I know, it almost makes you think there's hope for us yet ;)

[Psychosplodge]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/157/827/33553+-+Alicorn+artist+Sanity-X+crossover+Dragon+Emperor_Celestia+Luna_Heresy+po nified+ponyhammer+Sanguinius_ponified+war+warhamme r_40k.jpg

Space Marines display Chapter heraldry on their left pauldron. Ponies have a cutie-mark on their left flank. COINCIDENCE?

Interesting theory, are you suggesting the two deleted legions were possibly composed of ponies?

[inquisitorsog]

When you look at the Ultramorons, they basically have their own empire within the Imperium. The strong implication (close to plainly stated in some cases) is that they also have all of the apparatus that goes along with that. That includes their own Ultramar PDF etc. As such, the idea of a marine chapter building up it's own PDF however it wants is fair game. Further, more recent fluff from the BL seems to trending towards the idea that a chapter's serfs do quite a lot, up to and including piloting the T-Hawks and possibly other vehicles. I've always held the thought that rear echelon security on extended campaigns would be a mix of servitors and serfs overseen by just a small number of Battle Brothers. Likewise, the Chapter's fleet would almost HAVE to include serfs as armsmen or otherwise fulfilling the anti-boarding role. Servitors and logis-engines only go so far. A chapter defending its home world will be working with PDF that is probably well above Guard standards, and that's not including the possibility of pre-Scout novices pitching in.

With girls not being able to be fully transformed into Marines or hosts for geneseed, they may end up forming the backbone of the militant serfs as most of the boys who would be suitably athletic, courageous, etc would end up Marines, dead, or crippled by the implanting process and training. Once grown to women, they become the pilots, the ship crews, etc. Sort of like you see in Starship Troopers(the novel, not the movie): men on the ground, women flying the ships. Then, those girls that show early aptitude for combat training become the fleet's armswomen, occasionally supplementing the men on the ground when needed. As they don't have the early attrition rate of the boys, there could end up being quite a lot more women running around fleet then men.

[Chris*ta]

With girls not being able to be fully transformed into Marines or hosts for geneseed, they may end up forming the backbone of the militant serfs as most of the boys who would be suitably athletic, courageous, etc would end up Marines, dead, or crippled by the implanting process and training.

Not sure how true this would be.

Assuming the marinification process has only a 1% success rate, you still only need 100,000 guys to completely refill the chapter's roster and remember how long most marines serve.

As for using them as hosts for geneseed replication, assuming it takes ten guys to produce one "dose" of geneseed that's still only 10,000 more guys. Not to mention there's no real evidence that this requires particularly impressive specimens of humanity/just plain 'manity'.

110,000 is a tiny proportion of the population of all but the most sparsely populated world, and I don't think you choose very sparsely populated worlds for marine homeworlds.

Not to say you couldn't do this, or that GW wouldn't do this, just Writers Cannot Do Math (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath).

Surely better/easier to say there's some kind of tradition for women to take these roles.

[Nabterayl]

Assuming the marinification process has only a 1% success rate, you still only need 100,000 guys to completely refill the chapter's roster and remember how long most marines serve.

As for using them as hosts for geneseed replication, assuming it takes ten guys to produce one "dose" of geneseed that's still only 10,000 more guys. Not to mention there's no real evidence that this requires particularly impressive specimens of humanity/just plain 'manity'.
You only get a usable geneseed dose from a marine's progenoid glands every 5 years, which means a full-strength chapter can only try to create about 200 initiates per year. So ... yeah, I don't think any marine chapter is going to represent a significant manpower drain.

Incidentally, I don't think marines do tend to serve very long. Judging by the Imperial Armour profiles, most chapters seem to consider you a veteran after roughly 50 missions. Since only about 10% of a chapter makes veteran, I think it's fair to infer that most marines don't survive 50 missions.

[Psychosplodge]

You only get a usable geneseed dose from a marine's progenoid glands every 5 years.

Since when? I always read it as you got 2 glands, that are generally removed once, upon death. Obviously in the heresy when they knew what they were doing they removed them as they matured without requiring the marines death...

More importantly can they do this?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb3ry2dcFP1r0jcrzo1_400.gif

[Chris*ta]

Incidentally, I don't think marines do tend to serve very long. Judging by the Imperial Armour profiles, most chapters seem to consider you a veteran after roughly 50 missions. Since only about 10% of a chapter makes veteran, I think it's fair to infer that most marines don't survive 50 missions.

Depends on what you mean by mission. I'd think it would be roughly analogous to a modern tour of duty, so multiple years worth of service in a given subsector/sector. So, even surviving for 10 missions could be, say, up to 40 years.

[BrotherRolo]

More importantly can they do this?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb3ry2dcFP1r0jcrzo1_400.gif

No, Ultramarines have no rhythm.

[Nabterayl]

Since when? I always read it as you got 2 glands, that are generally removed once, upon death. Obviously in the heresy when they knew what they were doing they removed them as they matured without requiring the marines death...
Well, we know that "Mature progenoid organs can be removed and new implants artificially cultured from them. This is the only way new implants can be created" (C:SM 11), and according to WDUK98 according to Lexicanum, "These take time (5 years in the first case, 10 in the latter) to mature into gene-seed. The gene-seed can then be extracted and used to create more Space Marines."

Since even the newer fluff agrees that you can't get new space marines except from implanted progenoids, and that a significant portion of kids die without making it to the scouts, let alone out of the scouts, the WD fluff seems like it has to be still current. Otherwise how could a chapter replace its losses?


Depends on what you mean by mission. I'd think it would be roughly analogous to a modern tour of duty, so multiple years worth of service in a given subsector/sector. So, even surviving for 10 missions could be, say, up to 40 years.
That's ... not analogous to a modern tour of duty at all =P Four years per tour?

I'm sure the definition of "mission" is flexible, since unlike most professional soldiers marines don't have anything else they get to do. I don't think marines just hang out in a sector or subsector, though. They're commandos, not infantry. It seems most likely to me that when we see short-term, high-risk marine actions like Taros, Beta Anphelion, Vraks, Betallis, etc., those all count as a single "mission."

[Chris*ta]

I think we more or less agree on the definition of mission, I didn't mean it was literally four years. I mean it's a number of battles/incidents/whatever in a given sector/subsector against a given foe, probably lasting at least a few months and likely a few years.

The comparison to a tour of duty was meant to be because they're both limited to a geographic location, and last for a significant period. That is, they're not like a mission in a computer game, which covers one battle/incident and probably not more than half an hour of time.

And I didn't mean that they hang out waiting for the latest Black Crusade to turn up, but they go to a location where there's already something pretty big happening.

[Psychosplodge]

That may possibly be true as written then, but there's loads of *extended background material* in the novels where they briefly reflect on the loss of a fallen veteran brothers legacy, which suggests they aren't removing 5-10 years after initial implantation...

[inquisitorsog]

That may possibly be true as written then, but there's loads of *extended background material* in the novels where they briefly reflect on the loss of a fallen veteran brothers legacy, which suggests they aren't removing 5-10 years after initial implantation...

The second post to the sub thread I spawned here said it all: writers don't do math. When you assume some level of loss due to battle damage, warp exposure, ships getting annhilated, tyranids wiping the out the last stand, t-hawks getting shot down and becoming obliterated, then there's pretty clearly quite a few 'noids that get waylaid.

I do recall at least one occasion where the fluff stated they had their progenoids removed prior to a probable suicide mission.

All that said, the balance of sanity tilts me to three conclusions:
-One marine's geneseed leads to more than 1 or 2 marines
-There's some advantage to cultivating the progenoids in a Marine longer: probably more material is grown. Combine this with the notion that the geneseed of heroes is somehow better, and you see why there's a desire to keep it in as long as possible.
-There was a long ago statement to geneseed being cultivated in vat-grown clones or "criminals" (by imperial standards, so people who got parking tickets) by the Priesthood of Mars when new chapters were being created. This is probably done within chapters as well. I believe this may have been in the WD article mentioned previously.

[Nabterayl]

I don't mean to suggest that progenoids are removed only after 5-10 years. WD98 doesn't even say that the progenoids themselves are removed (though I imagine they are in the case of a KIA). The normal process is to remove the gene-seed itself.

If you look at some of the service records in C:SM, I don't think you get the impression that marines typically live for all that long. Marneus Calgar is only in his late 400s, and Pedro Kantor only 250. While a chapter master needn't be the oldest marine in the chapter (Calgar is clearly not the oldest in the Ultramarines), I do think we have to assume that they're in the top 10%, age-wise. I'm sure marines do live much longer than most commandos (who wouldn't even be commandos at, say, 50 years), but I get the distinct impression that earning your first service stud is a major accomplishment.

[Psychosplodge]

Well I remember in one of the *extended background* pieces saying they could grow enough geneseed for a new chapter in vat implanted subjects in about a century.
Now assuming you start with one organ and harvest and implant every ten years, a century later you have 1024... so someone did their maths that time...

[Nabterayl]

Alternatively, you start with X organs, harvest and implant every 5 or 10 years, and have a failure rate of Y. We know that even when you're taking your time with subjects you don't want to lose, you still lose some appreciable portion to implant rejection.

If you have exactly 1000 marines in a chapter (which you don't, but that's about 90% of Codex strength and a nice round number, so a reasonable ballpark) and a total gene-seed loss rate of 95% from tissue rejection, training deaths, and scout deaths, and you still get 1.5 doses of gene-seed every 10 years (I think the ... er, EB is pretty clear that one harvest = one set) then that's still 75 new marines every 10 years, which is in the right ballpark for chapters to have trouble recovering from even moderate losses, which is I think what we see. I have no trouble believing that in the grim darkness of the far future, out of every 100 kids that go under the apothecaries' knives, only 5 make it into the devastator squads.

[Psychosplodge]

obviously thats using ideal tissue matches in a none combat environment for mass production.

[inquisitorsog]

(I think the ... er, EB is pretty clear that one harvest = one set)
When you say "one harvest" do you mean just one gland?
I've never gotten 1 marine =1 geneseed. I've always assumed that at a min, there's 2 glands hence 2 geneseeds. There's two glands, I've always assumed this is because the Emperor was astute enough to realize one may become damaged in battle, hence they are redundant.

[ElectricPaladin]

When you say "one harvest" do you mean just one gland?
I've never gotten 1 marine =1 geneseed. I've always assumed that at a min, there's 2 glands hence 2 geneseeds. There's two glands, I've always assumed this is because the Emperor was astute enough to realize one may become damaged in battle, hence they are redundant.

Also, if 1 harvest = 1 geneseed, then there would be no marines left. Assuming that some glands are going to be unharvestable, for whatever reason, then the number of marines would sink rapidly, and the situation would be completely unrecoverable.

[Nabterayl]

I mean one harvest per gland, so at the 5 year mark you get 1 marine's worth of gene-seed (from the neck gland), at the 10 year mark you get 2 marines' worth of gene-seed (one from the neck gland, one from the thorax gland), and so and and so forth indefinitely until the host marine is dead.

[ElectricPaladin]

I mean one harvest per gland, so at the 5 year mark you get 1 marine's worth of gene-seed (from the neck gland), at the 10 year mark you get 2 marines' worth of gene-seed (one from the neck gland, one from the thorax gland), and so and and so forth indefinitely until the host marine is dead.

Ah. That makes more sense.

[DarkDesigner]

I mean one harvest per gland, so at the 5 year mark you get 1 marine's worth of gene-seed (from the neck gland), at the 10 year mark you get 2 marines' worth of gene-seed (one from the neck gland, one from the thorax gland), and so and and so forth indefinitely until the host marine is dead.

I'm pretty sure marines only grow one per location ever. So yes, they grow the tonsil progenoid gland after 5 years, and they'll grow the appendix progenoid gland after 10, but once they're taken out that's it. Which is why they're only removed before a likely suicide mission, or when a marine has reached a sufficient age.

[Nabterayl]

Lexicanum's pretty positive that each gland produces only one marine's worth of gene-seed at a time. If you only ever got a maximum of two attempts at making a marine per marine, how would chapters survive even modest casualties? If your failure rate was more than 50% the chapter would death-spiral. Doesn't it make more sense to interpret the 5- and 10-year time frames as the time between attempts? Surely the failure rate has to be higher than 50% ... ?

[DarkDesigner]

Lexicanum's pretty positive that each gland produces only one marine's worth of gene-seed at a time. If you only ever got a maximum of two attempts at making a marine per marine, how would chapters survive even modest casualties? If your failure rate was more than 50% the chapter would death-spiral. Doesn't it make more sense to interpret the 5- and 10-year time frames as the time between attempts? Surely the failure rate has to be higher than 50% ... ?

It's already been discussed in this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24202-Geneseed-Shenanigans&highlight=progenoid), I was on the side of they should be dying out it but we did the maths and it looked like they would have enough to keep going, even with only 2 per marine.

On the other hand, I'm not going to stop you interpreting the fluff that way if that's how you think it happens :)

[Nabterayl]

I don't think we really can do the maths, just make guesses. The key figure we don't have is what percentage of zygotes are lost, on average. Every kid who dies of implant rejection, every initiate who washes out of or dies during training, every scout who dies in the field, and every newbie devastator who dies before his neck progenoid has matured is a set of zygotes that won't be reproducing itself. If each marine produces no more than 2 sets of zygotes, then for the chapter to maintain itself through the millennia that total loss rate can't be more than 50%. If each marine produces 3 sets of zygotes every 10 years, that loss rate can be proportionately higher. But we have basically no data at all, as far as I know, about what the loss rate actually is.

Whatever the loss rate is, though, I think we can all agree that marine recruiting is not a significant drain on a world's manpower.

[Psychosplodge]

I've literally never read anything that says they produce more than two ever, certainly nothing that suggests they produce one every five years and one every ten, and only in the heresy series have I read anything about them being removed while the marine is a alive.

[inquisitorsog]

I've literally never read anything that says they produce more than two ever, certainly nothing that suggests they produce one every five years and one every ten, and only in the heresy series have I read anything about them being removed while the marine is a alive.

My memory may be faulty, but wasn't it also discussed in legion of the damned?

[Psychosplodge]

I'm not sure, I've read far too much since then, and it's obviously not that memorable of a book...


More importantly can they do this?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb3ry2dcFP1r0jcrzo1_400.gif


No, Ultramarines have no rhythm.

True, but they're SOB equivalent female PDF, not Ultramarines....