What Does the Hellbrute Presage for the Dreadnought?

[ElectricPaladin]

One of the things that saddened me about 6th Edition was what seemed like the end of the Age of the walkers. Walkers have always spoken to me in Warhammer 40k. Wraithlords drew me when I first considered joining the game and I planned on playing Eldar, while dreadnoughts attract me now that I play Blood Angels and Space Marines (and Tau, but they don't have any walkers... yet). In 5th, Walkers were pretty powerful. Although they weren't quite as hard to kill as a "real" vehicle, they had advantages like fighting in melee and walking through terrain that made them worth playing. However, with the increased fragility of vehicles in 6th, it seems that with their high price tag and low survivability, walkers in general were going to be relegated to a secondary choice.

And then we saw the Hellbrute, the new Chaos Dreadnought.

I don't know all the Hellbrute's rules, but the general hubbub makes them sound very attractive. What I'm curious about is this: what does the Hellbrute tell us about how GW is likely change loyalist Dreadnoughts to keep them attractive in 6th edition?

Rampant speculation is entirely fair, but I'm particularly interested in players with 1. more past experience with GW and how they write rules and 2. knowledge of the Hellbrute's rules that they can use to back up their arguments.

[daboarder]

And then we saw the Hellbrute, the new Chaos Dreadnought.

I don't know all the Hellbrute's rules, but the general hubbub makes them sound very attractive. What I'm curious about is this: what does the Hellbrute tell us about how GW is likely change loyalist Dreadnoughts to keep them attractive in 6th edition?

Rampant speculation is entirely fair, but I'm particularly interested in players with 1. more past experience with GW and how they write rules and 2. knowledge of the Hellbrute's rules that they can use to back up their arguments.

I'm not sure why you think the bell rute is indicative of anything. It's a dreadnought only has access to dreadnought standard weapons cannot ge
Marks and is crazy. That's it!

It's not cheaper its not more survivable so I don't fully understand what you talking about, unless your operating on the old false butcher cannon/ mark crap.

[Learn2Eel]

In terms of the Helbrute, I think its weapon options and the new Crazed rules are what really distinguish it from most Loyalist dreadnoughts. Thunder hammers are good for concussive, but you ask yourself, why would you want a thunder hammer when if you are in combat with a monstrous creature it is likely to kill you on the first turn anyway? The Power Scourge sounds interesting - reducing the WS of your base-to-base opponents by between 1 and 3 has some interesting applications when paired with other units that usually hit hard but don't hit that easily (e.g. Mutilators). The Crazed rules mean it only goes crazy when it takes a glancing/penetrating hit, and they are better than they were before. If you Fire Frenzy, you never shoot your own models. The normal one gives you Rage and you act normally. The Blood Frenzy gives you Rage and I think it was Fleet? Can't remember fully. But all of the Crazed results also make you ignore Shaken/Stunned, which is funny.

It sounds like a better deal than a normal Loyalist Dreadnought, but it still has the same issues really.

[daboarder]

Its not,

if its shot it will not do what you want it too next turn a third of the time, its not as crippling as it used to be but its still not great.

They are basically just a loyalist dread that gets access to a CCW, they'll get stomped however whenever they come across an Ironclad, Venerable or a Furioso.

Hell we don't even get venerabillity or anything to compensate for that, they really are just MEH.

remeber they are more likely to just get hulled or popped given they are only AV12.

I love them to bits and will be running atleast one of my 4 whenever I can, if not 2, but still they aren't really anything surprising or special.

[Learn2Eel]

Its not,

if its shot it will not do what you want it too next turn a third of the time, its not as crippling as it used to be but its still not great.

They are basically just a loyalist dread that gets access to a CCW, they'll get stomped however whenever they come across an Ironclad, Venerable or a Furioso.

Hell we don't even get venerabillity or anything to compensate for that, they really are just MEH.

remeber they are more likely to just get hulled or popped given they are only AV12.

I love them to bits and will be running atleast one of my 4 whenever I can, if not 2, but still they aren't really anything surprising or special.

Venerable Dreadnoughts have always been over-costed for what they do. Ironclads and Furioso's are quite a bit more expensive you realize. Crazed is a lot better than it was, you will always ignore shaken/stunned - you might be forced to do something you don't want them to, but that is why you kit them out for said way. I.e. the reaper autocannon. A four shot twin-linked autocannon when it Fire Frenzies? And being a Dreadnought, it can still hold its own in combat against a lot of things.

Wasn't saying they were special. But I would still say they have it better than a standard Loyalist one.

[ElectricPaladin]

That's... disappointing. I was really hoping to hear that the Hellbrute has something that makes it more durable, or attractive enough to compensate for its fragility, something that loyalist dreadnoughts might also enjoy. Oh, well.

[Learn2Eel]

Well, unlike Loyalists, you never have to pay for extra armour. You ignore Shaken/Stunned period, which is a pretty big bonus.

[spaceman91]

This is probably just me but i have never found my dreads to be easy kills. most people i have played against have not really picked on them. Still not sure why because they, most of the time, do a lot of killing. When people have picked on them they have survived well( except this one time ). most of the time it has finished the game with 1/2 hull points left, that's better then my pred. But this could just be me.

[Learn2Eel]

This is probably just me but i have never found my dreads to be easy kills. most people i have played against have not really picked on them. Still not sure why because they, most of the time, do a lot of killing. When people have picked on them they have survived well( except this one time ). most of the time it has finished the game with 1/2 hull points left, that's better then my pred. But this could just be me.

People don't see walkers as major threats. You could put three psyflmen on the field and a less-knowledgeable opponent will think they aren't a priority. Especially with 6th edition, the combat dreadnought isn't as effective. But the funny thing is - if they are picked on, they are usually so cheap that you don't really care. I don't know if it is a good luck charm or something but I've been using the Dark Vengeance Helbrute as a Chaos Dreadnought with a multi-melta and he has not died once. Funny stuff really.

Sadly for the Helbrute though, I think the Maulerfiend owns the 'walker' slot of the codex based on what we have seen.

[eldargal]

My Dark Eldar laugh at dreadnoughts but my craftworld Eldar really have to take them out as soon as possible, so it depends. People seem to write off a lot of things in 6th based. Frankly a lot of the complaints smack of players being spoilt 'ooh, it only has AV12, it's so fragile'. Well my AV10 War Walkers say '**** you'.:rolleyes:

[Learn2Eel]

My Dark Eldar laugh at dreadnoughts but my craftworld Eldar really have to take them out as soon as possible, so it depends. People seem to write off a lot of things in 6th based. Frankly a lot of the complaints smack of players being spoilt 'ooh, it only has AV12, it's so fragile'. Well my AV10 War Walkers say '**** you'.:rolleyes:

Hahaha, this. Haywire makes a mockery of all Dreadnoughts, but then, Dark Eldar make a mockery of all vehicles really. I learned that the hard way (if you know before-hand that you are playing Dark Eldar, do not ever take big expensive vehicles like Land Raiders).
As far as spoilt goes, Grey Knight players are pretty rad. 'My Draigowing can't ignore Terminator armour at initiative order!' Uh-huh. Because having 2-wound Terminators with Feel No Pain is something to complain about.
I recall someone complaining about Necrons and how they cheesy they were. That same player happened to use an ardent Purifier-spam army.

[Deadlift]

Eldar wraithlords that's a proper walker though, no hull points but wounds instead. To the OP. If you like walkers then these could be for you, the Wraithseer from forgeworld too is an HQ.

[Learn2Eel]

Wraithlords used to actually be walkers, didn't they? I recall in the Dawn of War games they were treated as walkers.
Damn scary as hell when a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords are on the field.

[DrLove42]

Wraithlords used to actually be walkers, didn't they? I recall in the Dawn of War games they were treated as walkers.
Damn scary as hell when a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords are on the field.

I played that list last week. Is funny

However Grenades in combat change that. A 10 man marine squad won over a wraithlord after 3-4 turns of combat.

[Learn2Eel]

I played that list last week. Is funny

However Grenades in combat change that. A 10 man marine squad won over a wraithlord after 3-4 turns of combat.

Only bad thing about Wraithlords is they can't actually deal with decent sized squads, they simply don't generate enough attacks. Having a Wraithsword helps, but it is 10 points to re-roll misses in combat when you only have 2 attacks anyway. It was always funny in the old rules when you would tie up an entire squad of say Berzerkers for the entire game simply because they forgot to bring a power fist.....ah the days of old.

[DrLove42]

Wraithlords got a boost in that you gain an extra attack on the charge (impact hits wooo) even if its not AP2.

And that enemy can run away if they can't wound you gives you the option of ctahcing them in a sweeping advance.

But grenades hurts them. In the list in future i'm going to run them in 2's. Having 4 attacks a turn, rerolling misses should make them a bit more effective, and harder for those damn grenades to kill

[Learn2Eel]

Wraithlords got a boost in that you gain an extra attack on the charge (impact hits wooo) even if its not AP2.

And that enemy can run away if they can't wound you gives you the option of ctahcing them in a sweeping advance.

But grenades hurts them. In the list in future i'm going to run them in 2's. Having 4 attacks a turn, rerolling misses should make them a bit more effective, and harder for those damn grenades to kill

Probably the funniest thing I have ever seen is a Wraithlord charging into Terminators. Hammer of Wrath wounds the model closest to the Wraithlord - the Captain. The Space Marine player doesn't bother to do a LoS roll.
You get the picture. Squelch!

[Anggul]

Really? I always found walkers to be crap in 5th ed. The only good ones were Blood Angels, and even then you needed a Drop Pod or Storm Raven for them to work. As for everyone else's Dreadnoughts, they rarely made it into combat and when they did they would kill maybe a model a turn (and that's if they didn't lose their CCW straight away) and get destroyed.

I don't really think of War Walkers and riflemen as 'Walkers' when playing, all they do is shoot and generally act like any other vehicle, they aren't taken because they're walkers but because they can have the same gun twice.

[Learn2Eel]

Really? I always found walkers to be crap in 5th ed. The only good ones were Blood Angels, and even then you needed a Drop Pod or Storm Raven for them to work. As for everyone else's Dreadnoughts, they rarely made it into combat and when they did they would kill maybe a model a turn (and that's if they didn't lose their CCW straight away) and get destroyed.

I don't really think of War Walkers and riflemen as 'Walkers' when playing, all they do is shoot and generally act like any other vehicle, they aren't taken because they're walkers but because they can have the same gun twice.

Despite their randomness, Chaos Dreadnoughts actually served me well. Mostly due to how cheap they were.

Maulerfiends look to be the new black as far as walkers go. 125 points base, will maul any tank/fortification in the game and then some, whilst killing infantry fairly well and even being able to take on other walkers. Big thing though - 12" move, Fleet, unaffected by terrain for both movement and charging. On a standard 4x4 with Dawn of War deployment, if your opponent even moves a vehicle/walker up 6", there is a very high chance you will be in charge range. Your opponent will probably shoot everything at them after they've mauled a tank that is twice their points cost, and then you can laugh as they ignore your Forgefiends or Obliterators.

Just one example of a CC walker that works, Furioso's still boss krak grenade-toting spess mehrines.

[magickbk]

I've always used my Dreads a little differently. Mostly I see other players using them at the forefront of an assault, trying to get them into combat as quickly as possible. I usually use the dread at the back of my advance. I use them to shoot opposing vehicles and then after units are in combat I send them in to turn the tide of any combat ahead of them that is getting bogged down.

In my Grey Knights, that extra Aegis leadership hit to psychic powers has been great to protect the core of my force, which is mostly Inquisitorial Henchmen.

[Kirsten]

My Dark Eldar laugh at dreadnoughts but my craftworld Eldar really have to take them out as soon as possible, so it depends. People seem to write off a lot of things in 6th based. Frankly a lot of the complaints smack of players being spoilt 'ooh, it only has AV12, it's so fragile'. Well my AV10 War Walkers say '**** you'.:rolleyes:

exactly, people always complain about something. vehicles are not really easier to kill in the majority of instances, they are more predictable to kill, because you know you can glance them to death. the only major time that has made things easier, in my experience, is against eldar vehicles, because holofields used to make them impossible to bring down. Walkers are a great asset, and I think the hellbrute will be a lot of fun

[Caitsidhe]

I think the Hellbrute looks great as a model. I think it is a pity it is a damn Dread. :) I plan on taking the Hellbrutes from my DV kits and converting something else out of them. I'm not sure what it will be yet... a custom Daemon Prince.... my own version of Daemon Engine if any of them actually seem viable on the table... who knows.

[Chris*ta]

Wraithlords used to actually be walkers, didn't they? I recall in the Dawn of War games they were treated as walkers.
Damn scary as hell when a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords are on the field.

Yes, Wraithlords used to be walkers. Back in the 90s when they were called Eldar Dreadnoughts :)

Not sure what point they went over to the monstrous creature stat line.

[Demonus]

My Dark Eldar laugh at dreadnoughts but my craftworld Eldar really have to take them out as soon as possible, so it depends. People seem to write off a lot of things in 6th based. Frankly a lot of the complaints smack of players being spoilt 'ooh, it only has AV12, it's so fragile'. Well my AV10 War Walkers say '**** you'.:rolleyes:

Really? Ive facerolled DE with a well placed Ironclad dropping in and flamering the jetbikes or big squads in/near cover. I dont think he's ever failed to make his points up vs them. And my defiler had a grand ole time lobbing str 8 pies into a massive kab warrior blob, only to charge them and their expensive archon who couldnt chip his paint.

[Houghten]

Yes, Wraithlords used to be walkers. Back in the 90s when they were called Eldar Dreadnoughts :)

Not sure what point they went over to the monstrous creature stat line.
3rd edition main book, I think.

[eldargal]

Were you facing a wych cult list with masses of haywore in 6th? Because I alway take some wyches now and I do not worry about dreads. Also the defiler example isn't particularly apt because warriors don't have haywire grenades. Defilers are tougher though, I'll grant you that. Tend to use scourges or massed heat lance eavers to get rid of them ASAP.

Really? Ive facerolled DE with a well placed Ironclad dropping in and flamering the jetbikes or big squads in/near cover. I dont think he's ever failed to make his points up vs them. And my defiler had a grand ole time lobbing str 8 pies into a massive kab warrior blob, only to charge them and their expensive archon who couldnt chip his paint.

Also bear in mind I'm arguing that dreadnoughts are good, it just depends which army you face. With my DE I don't worry about most vehicles (except flyers) anymore. We also have quite a lot of terrain so it isn't quite as easy to plonk a DSing dread right next to a unit in cover.

I also give my archon/succubi haywire grenades, because you never know.:)