Codex Substitution/Counts as

[crazyredpraetorian]

This subject came up in one of Goatboy's recent blogs. He is modeling an army that is "chaosy" but he will be using the Sw Codex. I think this is a great concept and should be a lot of fun. However, I have noticed a lot of people are making comments about using the SW codex for ______________. You fill in the blank, it is the flavor of the month. Personally, I don't agree with this line of thinking. I think most are doing it to gain an advantage for their army NOT because "it fits MY fluff better". I am not looking forward to going to tournaments and seeing 90% SWs. Especially, if only a small portion of those armies are ACTUALLY modeled as SWs.

What are your thoughts on this subject?

[jeffersonian000]

I've been doing this since I started playing 5th. My Marine army is from 2nd edition (Legion of the Damned), and has no comparable codex to their former play style with the exception of a single awkward entry in the current Space Marine codex. As such, most of the time I "count" them as vanilla Marines, but sometimes I "count" them as Black Templars, or Blood Angles, or even Chaos Marines. With the new SW codex, I can now “count” them as Wolves.

For many, it may just be a flavor of the month thing. For me, it's the ability to put a new spin on an old army.

SJ

[Lord Azaghul]

Counts as it fine in small levels, like one or two squads, as in I haven't bought the models yest, but want to try it out. Now the whole 'I want my CM to be a better army, so I'm going to use SM rules' thing is a little silly. Its like taking HE models to a touriment then explaining to every opponent that you're playing DE instead - it just created an unneccesary cloud of confusion.

[Melissia]

I have no intention of doing it myself, but I have no problem with it. If someone wants to play a CSM army with an SM playstyle to it, why do I care? They're all Marines anyway. If an Ork player wants to have a squad of IG conscripts count as if they were grots, sure, why not? Heck, I even played against someone whom used Sisters models to play a female Marine army.

Just so long as the models could feasibly be what you're saying they count as, it's okay with me.

[FirstLegion]

I view "counts-as" completely differently than just using the flavor of the month codex. I also think that using proxies to test out a particular build or codex because you'd like to build such an army for real is perfectly acceptable.

I'm in the same boat as CrazyRed and I can almost guarantee there will be 5 or 6 wolf armies at each of the next tournaments here. Maybe 1 or two of them will be real. Also knowing that CrazyRed is investing a large amount of time and resources building his REAL wolf army, it would upset me just as much.

Aims is currently mulling over building a wolf army, but it will be ONLY a wolf army. It wont be transferred to any other codex.

That being said, none of the options in the poll fit my view. I ADORE counts as armies, if they are real counts as armies. I'm even okay with an army like one locally, an Hrud army that can be easily used as Tau or Eldar. Because it's 100% custom, I feel he's earned that right. Taking that into account, I DON'T think it's okay to play an obvious Dark Angels army as CSM one day, SM the next, and SW after that.

[brother drakist]

I'm of the opinion that it's my opponents plastic men so he can do whatever he wants with them as long as I am notified prior to the game. Just like units without WISYWIG armaments I need to know before we actually start. If told after we start to play then I am against "counts as."

[Herald of Nurgle]

Counts as it fine in small levels, like one or two squads, as in I haven't bought the models yest, but want to try it out. Now the whole 'I want my CM to be a better army, so I'm going to use SM rules' thing is a little silly. Its like taking HE models to a touriment then explaining to every opponent that you're playing DE instead - it just created an unneccesary cloud of confusion.
HE -> DE isn't as major a change though is it? Specially since DE is mainly just spiky HE with a <few> exceptions.

In my opinion, let 'em be. Nurgle cares not for whom he infects. Khorne says only to let the blood flow. Tzeentch will have fun having some psychic duels... and no-one talks about Slaanesh.

[BuFFo]

Tournaments are an abomination to the hobby anyway, so who cares what tourney organizers think.

The indisputable fact is that you are playing a game by its rules. The rules allow for both 'wysiwyg' and 'count as'.

So as long as your models are 'wysiwyg' then 'count as' does NOT matter in any shape or form. It doesn't matter what piece of plastic is representing the rules for a Grey Hunter, as long as it is not confusing to your opponent, as per 'wysiwyg'.

Opponents of 'count as' seem to tack on 'cheap, cheesy and bandwagoning' as if the two are bound at the wrist.

No.

The person may be cheesy, cheap, and bandwagoning, but not the rules / models. And when you take this venomous attitude, this mythical hobbyist you create in your mind, and in these threads, do a HUGE DISCREDIT to the legion of posters/hobbyists who 'count as' for fun, fluff and fairness.

So far, on the blog and here, I have seen, what, 20+ people who 'count as' for fun, and zero who do it for cheese reasons?



Don't blame the game. Blame the player.

[Aegis]

I think of counts as and proxy as two different concepts, which seem to be almost blurred (at least in the theme of this thread, though I could be very mistaken).

I have nothing against either, but in the case of 'counts as', I would like to see something noticeable ti distinguish them from what they are. For instance, use IG models to make a some form of rogue hive army (or something like that) using the Ork book, make them look a bit more gang like. Vague example, I know, but best I could do late at night.

[Commissar Lewis]

Yeah, in my mind it's alright. When people start getting up in arms, that's when the hobby becomes not fun anymore. I play for fun. I don't care if I lose as long as I have fun. Which is why I'm never playing in a tournament because the fair maidens of Sportsmanship and Fun get loaded and pass out during tournaments.

Counts As armies, as long as they are done well, are fun and interesting to play against.

I dunno, it's midnight and I have a cold, so my points may be a bit off.

[crazyredpraetorian]

Yeah, in my mind it's alright. When people start getting up in arms, that's when the hobby becomes not fun anymore. I play for fun. I don't care if I lose as long as I have fun. Which is why I'm never playing in a tournament because the fair maidens of Sportsmanship and Fun get loaded and pass out during tournaments.

Counts As armies, as long as they are done well, are fun and interesting to play against.

I dunno, it's midnight and I have a cold, so my points may be a bit off.



My sympathies, colds are no fun. I'm fighting the allegies from hell right now myself. The meds make me a little disoriented.

[miteyheroes]

I've run fully converted Rebel Grot armies as IG, Donarion Clawed Fiend armies as Nids, and even Rebel Snotlings as Nids (consisting mainly of ripper swarms, obviously). No-one's complained yet, as long as I explain everything clearly before the game.

[jeffersonian000]

I don't proxy anything in a game; I either have the model or I don't have that unit. However, I do "count as" my LotD Librarian as a Codex Librarian or as Varro Tigurius. I have no models to field as Sternguard, but I do have a unit of LotD Assault Marines that I either use individually a Tactical Sergeants or in a group as Vanguard Veterans (jump packs were not available to LotD AM's, but each model in the unit could have different close combat weapons). I could proxy Sternguard, yet it wouldn't feel right to me as the model just don't look different enough to stand out as having special bolters (while the 2 power axe and 4 power first Marines with bolt pistols are easier to fit into any given unit). I could proxy my Heavy Bolter Marines as Plasma Cannon Marines, but I don't since they do in fact have heavy bolters and not plasma cannons. But that's just me.

SJ

[EmperorEternalXIX]

I think to remove this practice from the game would stifle a lot of creativity.

I think it's a little bogus when people do it because their codex sucks, but that is more GW's fault. After the debacle of the Chaos codex, hopefully we won't see this again. Chaos folks around my area right now will play anything BUT the Chaos codex, heh.

[Chumbalaya]

I'm all for it.

Live and let live.

[Dosadi]

I think to remove this practice from the game would stifle a lot of creativity.

Agree, it's certainly part of the hobby and has been for some time. As long as you let the other player know what's what and are consistent with your "proxies" I will play against anything, especially if it's some unique twist like the Badmoon'z Dethwing army I saw that was based on the DA codex but used nothing but Orks in mega armour. What I have a problem with is when people start plopping down random models and telling me what they are; "These chaos terminators are blood angel terminators, they all have thunder hammer & storm shield except for the guy with the reaper autocannon who has lighting claws." When it's proxies for the sake of the meta-game I have a problem. When it's proxies because there is a interesting and unique theme involved it's the way the hobby should be.


I think it's a little bogus when people do it because their codex sucks, but that is more GW's fault. After the debacle of the Chaos codex, hopefully we won't see this again. Chaos folks around my area right now will play anything BUT the Chaos codex, heh.

Their perception is that their codex sucks...and that is not GW's fault. There are issues with the Chaos Codex (as with every codex), but it's far from the travesty most people make it out to be. I play with it constantly and I win far more games than I loose. I must be some super genius player. I don't want to take this thread OT as there are already miles and miles of discussions on the Chaos Marine 'dex so I'll just disagree with you on that one and move on. ;)

As for me, I'm planning on doing a Dark Wolf army to mix in with my Red Corsairs. It will have more of a "feral" feel to it with Canis, lone wolves, lots of wolfen marked guys and lots of fenrisian wolves (chaos hounds), I'm still working out the particulars but I've already started converting up some grey hunters and blood claws from the new box and a box of Chaos Marines.

I also have a Red Corsair army made using the SM codex. It has no power armour in it at all. It's all scouts and terminators.

Combine these with my Red Corsair army made from the actual Chaos Marine book and I've got about 7000pts. of Red Corsairs spanning three codices. The last step will be adding some rebel guard to represent the non-astartes space pirates, a smallish Chaos Daemon army and a few super heavies. The goal will be 10k worth of Red Corsairs using five codices.

So to answer the poll; yes, I’m in favor of “counts-as” :D



Dosadi

[The Green Git]

I've got no problem with "Counts As" as long as the modeling and painting make units distinctive and the substitutions are clear and consistent.

The fact that so many people want to jump on the JOTWW bandwagon just helps me tool for tournaments. AP3 lists FTW!

[Grimgore]

I think to remove this practice from the game would stifle a lot of creativity.

I think it's a little bogus when people do it because their codex sucks, but that is more GW's fault. After the debacle of the Chaos codex, hopefully we won't see this again. Chaos folks around my area right now will play anything BUT the Chaos codex, heh.

^^
This...

I have np problem with count as, if the person has taken the time to model the gear appropriately. I really don't care what is holding the plasma gun, heavy bolter, & flamer as long as I can see clearly what the loadout is. As long as the thought is there, and doesn't come off as half baked I think count as a great way to have a very unique army. I could use the SW 'dex for my Chaos, but I'm not... SW don't exactly fit the image of Word Bearers. It's like anything else, it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone else.

As far as proxy models, in friendly games sure... I would want to see if X unit is viable for my army just as much as anyone else before I go spend money and time to make said unit. I ran proxies for a Greater Demon and Vindicator cause I wanted see how they performed with the rest of my list. It's a game first and foremost, something we do for fun, even tournies are fun... but I think having a good attitude for the game and it's players is paramount once those start to backslide it's down the spiral from there.

Grim

[Xas]

I think it all depends on the "WHY".

If you want to play XYZ army because of the theme but simply want it to not be attached to its faction (as with the space goats) and do all the conversion stuff I'm cool with that and think tournaments should ahve no problems with it.


in small friendly games I think switching between the dexes (including chaos) for your marines is viable as long as you tell beforehand and stuff still stays in the "normal" department as far as proxying goes. I personally have a problem with normal modells or other charachters standing in for special characters within the same faction (that perfectly plain TH/SS termie counts as lysander. or this malleus counts as pedro). this isr ather because of ease of use (because there is a big difference between a normal termie and old lysander. and while abbaddon leading his black leagion as wolf/deathwing counts as is perfectly clear that it is NOT abby you can get confused if the smurgs mix their chars).


to keep things more straightforward those stuff should only be legal in tournaments if you stick to WYSIWYG within your other colour and use proper conversions for the special characters (if the originals dont fit your fluff).



so basically as long as everything is clear I'm open for all.