What equipment restrictions did the Pre-Hersey Legions have? Who had access to more?

[Daemonette666]

I have not checked if there are any other threads started on this forum dedicated to this topic.

Up until the Forge World books come out and answer all the questions for me, I am using the old BOLS/ Fly Lords of Terra Heresy era Rule Set Ver 2.5 . I will be starting a Heresy era campaign and have a few people who have shown great interest in playing the once a month games.

I have determined a lot of information on what equipment was commonly available, being trialed by the various legions (in its infancy) or just not available because it was developed later on from various sources such as the Heresy novels, the old 40K codexes and rule books, the heresy era rule set, and the 30k lexicum/ wiki.

Here is what I have determined.

Havoc launchers were used instead of hunter killer missiles.

Plasma cannons were rare and being trialed by the dark Angels.

Multi-Meltas were rare and being trialed by the Salamanders.

Conversion Beamers were rare and could only be mounted on vehicles, Techmarines, and dreadnoughts.

Terminator armour had a number of trial variants which were being tested by some legions (Imperial fists, Death Guard, Iron Warriors) with most legions having some, and some legions like the White Scars having none.

Jet Bikes were used in their own squads along side bikes in fast companies which had attack bikes and land speeders. Some Legions relied more heavily on these companies White Scars, the Dark Angels - Raven Wing, Night Lords, Raven Guard. Some had none at all - Iron Warriors, Iron Hands.

Anti-Grav Rhino transports were use by some legions and the Adeptus Custodes. Although they were not common, they were used by White Scars and and other Legions that relied on speed to redeploy their troops.

Jump Packs/ Jump Turbines were not common, and only used in great numbers for command squads, and assault troops by the Night Lords, Blood Angels and Raven Guard.

MK VII Eagle Armour was used by the Raven Guard after Istvan V, then slowly released to the loyalist legions after that. MK VI Corvus armour was used the traitor legions almost extensively as the dark mehanicus supplied them with great stocks of it before the heresy began.
MK IV and V were very common to all legions.
MK I, II and III were in decline, but used by all legions.

Storm Bolters were not used, twin linked bolters were used instead.

Assault cannon were only just being trialed by the Blood Angels who developed the Baal Predator to use it. It was very rare in other Legions.

Thunderfire cannons were not used at all. Rapier and tarantula as the common fire support weapon, as were mole Mortars.

The following vehicles and Equipment were not developed until after the end of the Horus Heresy. Landraider Crusader/Redeemers/Aries/Helios/Prometheus, Razorbacks, Repressors, Exorcists, Predator Annihilator.

Except for the Iron Hands, Venerable Dreadnoughts were not in use, only dreadnoughts.

I have some information on how the legions were organised, and what battle tactics they used. How their Legions were organised (Chapters/Companies/Fellowships, etc). Some had bike and fast companies, some had siege companies, others had companies developed to their special battle tactics and doctrines - Thousand Sons, Iron Warriors/hands, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and so on. The Ultra marines and the Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves were the least divergent from the standard FOC company setup.

I would like to find out more if anyone else knows more about what weapons and equipment were in use, and by whom. If you have more detailed info on how the different legions were organised, then it wold be appreciated.

O am building a pre-heresy 1000 sons force.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

As far as I know, the Anti-grav Rhino was Custodes-only.

Assault Cannons were getting around a bit more, the Thousand Sons had them pre-Nikea (they stilled called them Reapers since they like that name :P)

Looking at the new FW offerings, it looks like the Rogue Trader era and random card art depictions of Jetbikes as "Normal SM bikes that fly" is being disregarded in favor of "Attack Bike squadrons that fly", with access to the Plasma Cannon.

"Venerable Dreadnoughts" are not a unique piece of technology. It's just a normal Dreadnought that lived long enough to be moar badass.

Conversion beamers may have been a bit more common, there's some art of a Thousand Sons Devastator squad equipped with Conversion Beamers.

[Cpt Codpiece]

it was mk vi corvus not vii eagle that raven guard had. clue is in the name ;)

all termies had the 'reaper' auto cannon, and the prototype rotary auto cannon was definatly used by 1ksons.

[Kawauso]

"Venerable Dreadnoughts" are not a unique piece of technology. It's just a normal Dreadnought that lived long enough to be moar badass.


This. Also, the Emperor's Children had one of the first dreadnoughts that would probably have been considered 'venerable'. Ancient Rylanor was their master of rites and he had been around since the very beginning of the Great Crusade (and interred in dreadnought armour some decades before the Heresy). He was also, incidentally, a loyalist on Istvaan III and may have been the only one to survive it; he was sent to guard an underground hangar shortly before the loyalists were wiped out completely so there's a good chance he was overlooked when the purge was completed. Sad if you think about it. :(

Anyway, I'm not sure about plasma cannons being all that rare - isn't it only post-Heresy that technology like that becomes a lot harder to find? I haven't really seen anything to suggest that there were less of them around during the Heresy than there are in 40k. Same goes for multi-meltas.

I'm pretty sure jump packs were also at least as common during the Heresy as they were after it. Seems like the assault elements of each company/chapter/legion had adequate access to them, at least.



Good luck on the pre-heresy force, at any rate!
I'd love to do perhaps an Imperial Fists one if I ever get the chance, but that would definitely be no time soon.

[Daemonette666]

I got the marks of armour mixed up. For some reason I had this idea that the MKIV Maximus was called the Corvus pattern, and the MK VI Corvus was called the Eagle Pattern. I never liked purist space marines any way LOL.

So Thunder and Crusade pattern armour common to all, but being phased out. Iron pattern Armour common to all Legions. MKV Heresy first used by Raven Guard after Istvan V, but then used but both Traitor Imperialist Legions and Loyalist Chaos Legions while jury rigging repairs to their own armour. Corvus pattern armour First given to Raven Guard after Istvan V after being recovered from Mars, then slowly adopted by other Imperial Legions. Maximus armour concentrated more in the Chaos Legons as Horus and Dark Mechanicus gave it to them first. Aquilla pattern armour developed after the mechanicus - mars civil war, and given out to Imperial Legions only. Errant armour not available.

I thought I had seen pictures of a White Scars anti-grav Rhino from the old Heresy era collectable card game.

I know assault cannons were just starting to filter through to the other Legions, and many called them reaper auto cannons, but they were still less common than in the Blood Angels who had trialed them.

I know venerable dreadnoughts are just older versions of normal dreadnoughts, but that is why I am limiting them to the Iron Hands who tended to entomb their wounded into dreadnoughts more than other legions. Even with the great crusade, the dreadnoughts were not that old.

I did not know about the conversion Beamers being carried by devastator squads. Most big exotic weapons like that back in the old Rogue Trader were carried by Mechanicus followers, dreadnoughts, and specialized vehicles.

The FW new Heavy Jet Bike did not exist back int the old rogue trader days. Neither was it used in Epic space marine, or any of the other early editions of 40K/30K. Jet bikes were used , and they were very ugly things, as were the early land speeders. Yes it does look like FW is using their "let us make up stuff to sell more" license.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I think Thunder Armour would be pretty uncommon among even the pre-Heresy Space Marines? Its production ceased before the Great Crusade began, Mk2 was designed for the Crusade. It didn't have life support, powered legs, it was noisy etc, which made it useless for many, many operations. There'd still be some around as relics, but I don't think it'd be issued to anyone but a Captain/Vet. Sergeant, and it'd probably be heavily modified.

Surprised to hear that the anti-grav rhinos were a thing for the White Scars - pretty cool, though. Hopefully we'll see some in later Forgeworld books.

I thinnnnk FW's approach to the Jetbike might be based on justifying the price? Resin bikers get really expensive really fast, so using them as a points-heavy, impressive unit would make customers happier than "Bike squads that ignore terrain". We might see some normal jetbikes eventually, though (well, hopefully! I have a couple WiP, myself :P).

[Chris*ta]

Jet Bikes were used in their own squads along side bikes in fast companies which had attack bikes and land speeders. Some Legions relied more heavily on these companies White Scars, the Dark Angels - Raven Wing, Night Lords, Raven Guard. Some had none at all - Iron Warriors, Iron Hands.

When exactly was the Raven Wing introduced? I thought it was shortly after the HH finished?

Also, regarding the Assault Cannon, there is the Kheres (?) pattern on the Contemptor dreadnought -- so it was seemingly sort of known to all the Legions.

[Wildcard]

The Tempust Fugitives have made a lot of effort in creating rules and stuff for 30k.

The homebreed codex is called: Age of the Emperor

Got lots of awesome backround gathered from all the sources possible, with legions and primarchs to match the rules, specialties, and such. Even have named characters included as well as rules for special units such as custodes.

Also has a pointsystem that functioned in 5th greatly (havent tried it in 6th edition) that is used with the points to buy those special / legendary units like primarchs (and the mentioned custodes)

I have no idea where i have gotten that file, but if i remember right it was on a forums where you had to register to be eligible for download. It was free though. And for 130pages worth of rules, backround etc you are sure to find lots of usable info & stuff

[DarkDesigner]

I got the marks of armour mixed up. For some reason I had this idea that the MKIV Maximus was called the Corvus pattern, and the MK VI Corvus was called the Eagle Pattern. I never liked purist space marines any way LOL.

So Thunder and Crusade pattern armour common to all, but being phased out. Iron pattern Armour common to all Legions. MKV Heresy first used by Raven Guard after Istvan V, but then used but both Traitor Imperialist Legions and Loyalist Chaos Legions while jury rigging repairs to their own armour. Corvus pattern armour First given to Raven Guard after Istvan V after being recovered from Mars, then slowly adopted by other Imperial Legions. Maximus armour concentrated more in the Chaos Legons as Horus and Dark Mechanicus gave it to them first. Aquilla pattern armour developed after the mechanicus - mars civil war, and given out to Imperial Legions only. Errant armour not available.

As I understand it, most legions are on Mark 2 as it was the Mark made for the Crusade. The Mark 1 Thunder armour was only worn by the Thunder Warriors when the Emperor unified Terra. Some Legions (couldn't say which) are getting some Mark 3, however Mark 4 is the latest edition which Horus has held back and only distributed to the traitor legions. Mark 5 is the designation for the mish-mash armour as used by retreating loyalist forces on Istvaan V - the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders. It is made from scavenged parts of previous Marks, presumably 2, 3 and 4. The only army that would be using Mark 6 is the Raven Guard (only post-Istvaan massacre) and possibly Imperial Fists, I doubt whether any others would have gotten it.

It was also my understanding that technology in the 30th Millenium was actually better and more plentiful than in the 40th, although they still weren't inventing new tech.

What are you doing about named characters? If it were me I'd steer clear of actual special characters as they may have equipment or abilities they acquired since the heresy. The only pointers I can think of to point out are that Bjorn the Fell-handed isn't interred in a dreadnought yet (though I'll say no more in case of spoilers), and there are no Librarians in any Loyalist factions except for the Dark Angels since the Edict of Nikaea.

[Cpt Codpiece]

the RG had some mk iv and vi (though vi was not named or mk stamped yet) prior to Ist V massacre, they had been prototyping them. that is what lead to them being called 'corvus', they will of had some mk iv as they preferred the sensors of them but the stealth and cooling of the proto vi.

the assault cannon was definatly in use on vehicles, and as i pointed out ahriman preferred the twin linked reapers over the newer termie portable rotary assault cannon (two different guns). all because of gematra lol

mk 1 thunder armour was only worn by 5 astartes, the crusader host. and even they were ad hoc copies.
mk 1 was not a sealed suit suitable for void or hazardous environs.

[Daemonette666]

What are you doing about named characters? If it were me I'd steer clear of actual special characters as they may have equipment or abilities they acquired since the heresy.

I will be not allowing named characters. There is a list of them in the Heresy Era Rule Set that can be used instead. Primarchs are not going to be in every battle, I do not see the need for it. Even though I have a lot of the Primarchs form different sources (Ronin, Kabuki, etc) and have even painted Lorgar, and intend to paint Magnus soon.

MK I Thunder armour is not being made by Forge World, and unless someone has bought it from GW as part of their armour through the ages pack. We can even use this armour for elite troops for the technologically advanced Human civilisations who have chosen not join the Imperial Terran Empire, and fight the space marine legions.

Every Legion will be able to use the Multi-Melta and Assault Cannon. I am just limiting its availability because I am going off the Heresy Era Rules Set that was designed by Bigred and Mkerr before the Horus Heresy novels came out. I will check out the Tempis Fugitives as well.

[JamesP]

The Tempust Fugitives have made a lot of effort in creating rules and stuff for 30k.

The homebreed codex is called: Age of the Emperor

Got lots of awesome backround gathered from all the sources possible, with legions and primarchs to match the rules, specialties, and such. Even have named characters included as well as rules for special units such as custodes.

Also has a pointsystem that functioned in 5th greatly (havent tried it in 6th edition) that is used with the points to buy those special / legendary units like primarchs (and the mentioned custodes)

I have no idea where i have gotten that file, but if i remember right it was on a forums where you had to register to be eligible for download. It was free though. And for 130pages worth of rules, backround etc you are sure to find lots of usable info & stuff

www.tempusfugitives.co.uk

And I agree, the material they've done for the Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, Seige of Terra and the Scouring is great. I'm sure that it will all be eventually invalidated by the FW books but it will still stand as a great example of how to take the existing 40k rules, special characters, unit types etc and make something new out of them.

[Daemonette666]

I found both the Age of Emperor expansion and the cult mechanicus codex via google, and was able to download them free without signing up with tempus fugitives. I have posted to those interested whether they want to use those rules or go with the ones I have worked out. and the FLOT heresy era rules set V.2.5.

I am starting my campaign in November due to work commitments, and to allow people time to get stuff from Forge World, etc.

[DarkDesigner]

the RG had some mk iv and vi (though vi was not named or mk stamped yet) prior to Ist V massacre, they had been prototyping them. that is what lead to them being called 'corvus', they will of had some mk iv as they preferred the sensors of them but the stealth and cooling of the proto vi.

the assault cannon was definatly in use on vehicles, and as i pointed out ahriman preferred the twin linked reapers over the newer termie portable rotary assault cannon (two different guns). all because of gematra lol

mk 1 thunder armour was only worn by 5 astartes, the crusader host. and even they were ad hoc copies.
mk 1 was not a sealed suit suitable for void or hazardous environs.

What is your source sir? I'm going by Deliverance Lost where the Imperial Fists turn up with the brand new and completely untested Mark VI suits, so my understanding is that no legion has Mark 6 at Istvaan, and the latest that the traitors ever get is Mark IV. Mark V was the as-of-yet unnamed one as it was just used as a designation for the ad hoc suits used during Istvaan V.

The suits are named Corvus in honour of Corax's devotion to the Imperial cause after they are nearly decimated.

I don't know much about Mark I though so I may have been wrong on that point.

[miteyheroes]

What is your source sir? I'm going by Deliverance Lost where the Imperial Fists turn up with the brand new and completely untested Mark VI suits, so my understanding is that no legion has Mark 6 at Istvaan, and the latest that the traitors ever get is Mark IV. Mark V was the as-of-yet unnamed one as it was just used as a designation for the ad hoc suits used during Istvaan V.

The suits are named Corvus in honour of Corax's devotion to the Imperial cause after they are nearly decimated.

I don't know much about Mark I though so I may have been wrong on that point.

In "Deliverance Lost" the Imperial Fists comment that Mk VI is a development of Mk IV, specifically incorporating changes that the Raven Guard had suggested and trialled. It's named after the fact that they tested it, and Corax's devotion, and the fact it has a beak. So the RG had access to trial versions of Mk VI before Istvaan, but it wasn't yet officially produced or numbered as Mk VI.

Mk I (or something similar) is used by the small handful of Astartes in the latter half of "The Outcast Dead".

[Daemonette666]

I studied the age of the emperor expansion for 6th edition. There are some good points in it, but there is also so much missing. The legendary points and legendary acts/rewards will make the game far more complicated than it needs to be. Some of the weapons described have skyfire but are blast or large blast weapons so can not fire at flyers or flying monstrous creatures. Some of the transports that, there is not a picture for (and has not been produced by GW or FW) do not have their access points described.

In the section describing the individual legions and their traits, it does not go into enough detail about their top down organisaton and standard FOC, weapons they preferred to use and only the Blood Angels had legendary characters mentioned.

The Dark Angels and the Blood Angels were the only ones written about, with a section (still blank) reserved for the salamanders. None of the other Legions and their Primarchs were discussed.

I will have to rely on the other expansion and convert it over to 6th edition.

[gcsmith]

This. Also, the Emperor's Children had one of the first dreadnoughts that would probably have been considered 'venerable'. Ancient Rylanor was their master of rites and he had been around since the very beginning of the Great Crusade (and interred in dreadnought armour some decades before the Heresy). He was also, incidentally, a loyalist on Istvaan III and may have been the only one to survive it; he was sent to guard an underground hangar shortly before the loyalists were wiped out completely so there's a good chance he was overlooked when the purge was completed. Sad if you think about it. :(

Anyway, I'm not sure about plasma cannons being all that rare - isn't it only post-Heresy that technology like that becomes a lot harder to find? I haven't really seen anything to suggest that there were less of them around during the Heresy than there are in 40k. Same goes for multi-meltas.

I'm pretty sure jump packs were also at least as common during the Heresy as they were after it. Seems like the assault elements of each company/chapter/legion had adequate access to them, at least.



Good luck on the pre-heresy force, at any rate!
I'd love to do perhaps an Imperial Fists one if I ever get the chance, but that would definitely be no time soon.

This thing about that dreadnaught is what makes me believe some loyalists survived Istvann and because the original marines were imortall I believe some might live to this day.

[miteyheroes]

This thing about that dreadnaught is what makes me believe some loyalists survived Istvann

Well, if you listen to the Garro audio dramas there's at least one other loyalist who survived Istvaan...